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Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

• rosstex 5y ago
  Here's the recent FTC workshop on Dark Patterns related to this call for comments: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/events-calendar/bringing-dark-patterns-light-ftc-workshop https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/events-calendar/bringing-dar...
• sincerely 5y ago
  I linked to the comments page, here is a document with more details: https://downloads.regulations.gov/FTC-2021-0019-0001/content.pdf https://downloads.regulations.gov/FTC-2021-0019-0001/content...
• salawat 5y ago
  Yessssss! It's about damn time. Time to sit down, do some research, and write up some papers!
  • cj 5y ago
    I’m assuming this is sarcasm? What do you propose be done instead of doing research and writing papers?
    • burnished 5y ago
      Why would this be sarcasm? Wouldn't a well researched paper be the ideal public comment? I don't understand how the top comment here is so unpopular.
    • splithalf 5y ago
      Not doing those things and achieving the same outcome at no cost.
    • salawat 5y ago
      Nope. Not sarcasm. I'm going through each of the kiddo's tablets and cataloging every dark pattern, in every game. Then I'm writing up the details of our nightmare with PayPal, the couple of financial institutions I've had nightmares getting things closed out from, and possibly even chucking in a few examples of contact template language that I think qualify like "To opt out, send a hand-signed letter to yada-yada...". I'm so tired of malicious compliance, hidden or disguised unsubscribe links, and complete disregard for the burden imposed on consumers. Gacha games, loot boxes, that type of thing. Basically everything listed here. https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3400901 https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3400901 but also https://www.darkpatterns.org/types-of-dark-pattern https://www.darkpatterns.org/types-of-dark-pattern or monitored here: https://www.darkpattern.games/ https://www.darkpattern.games/ I've come to realize these types of "Dark Patterns" exist in way more than just UI's. Businesses often find ways of leveraging the fruits of them for alternate revenue streams. I'm sure there are academics out there who'll nail down the white paper aspect, butI tend to try to supply a boots on the ground eye-view since I spend a lot of time trying to teach people what to look out for, and why it's a problem.
• dclusin 5y ago
  I think the biggest dark pattern is social platforms holding the browser hostage instead of opening content in the users native browser app. Social media sites are built on user generated content. By keeping users in the app like this it puts the website at an inherent disadvantage and prevents them from providing a compelling first class experience that might compete with facebook for attention, due to their inherent parent child ui design. Anti trust regulators came after Microsoft for deep bundling of functionality of browser and OS and I think they should do the same for facebook, google, reddit, etc. for the web view.
  • fpig 5y ago
    What is good about web sites trying to force users to use their app instead? That itself one of the worst dark patterns out there. Edit: If my comment looks confusing, the comment I replied to has been edited. "compelling first class experience" is really a more vague term for "web sites being able to push their app on users"
    • dclusin 5y ago
      While I agree this is a regrettable practice, the social media sites in question do the same thing too. The argument that Facebook is acting in users best interest by preventing websites from spamming users to use an app is incredibly self serving and not really all that believable. I too wish it would go away, but both sites not having equal access the users in a similar way is anti competitive imo. Especially for businesses who increasingly need to participate on these platforms due to the fact that so many of their customers use their services.
      • fpig 5y ago
        I agree that this practice should go away - if you believe that, then the goal should be to eliminate this shady practice entirely, not try to make it more prevalent like you were suggesting before editing your comment.
        • 5y ago
• chiefofgxbxl 5y ago
  Windows 10 does not respect the "default browser" setting when opening web-based content through apps. For example, clicking on "Help" links or search results from the start menu always opens in Edge. This seems far worse than their IE-bundling issue back in the day... at least users have a few web browsers to choose from, but what good is that when user preference is overridden?
  • thrill 5y ago
    If Microsoft could ensure that the target browser would properly show the help documentation, then the complaint would hold more weight.
    • anonymousab 5y ago
      If there's documentation that renders correctly in modern edge but is unusable in Chrome(ium) or Firefox then that would be useful to see. It's a valid concern but I'm fairly certain it's nowhere near the top reasons that they do this. They have a history of trying to shove users into Microsoft's unwanted browser against their (often informed) wishes.
      • deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    • dylan604 5y ago
      If Microsoft can't hire people to be able to design a webpage that renders in all web browsers, then they have fallen much further than I would have even made fun of them.
  • thow-01187 5y ago
    Google does this even more egregiously with Android - my default browser is Firefox, but any links from Google News, Google Assistant and other Google software open in Chrome.
    • delecti 5y ago
• mimsee 5y ago
  Ecommerce sites showing a "27 people are watching this right now" alongside the product but from source code it turns out to be a Math.random()
  • airstrike 5y ago
    As disingenuous as this may be, I feel it's probably not one of the most harmful examples
    • pishpash 5y ago
      Should be punished as false advertisement.
    • dylan604 5y ago
      Anything attempting to falesly manipulate someone with FOMO should be punishable. If not with jail time, then heavy fines. If not that, they should be forced to do the GoT walk of shame.
    • ratww 5y ago
      When it's using Math.random(), it kinda is.
  • chrisin2d 5y ago
    I expect an outcome similar to what happened between the European Commission and Booking.com. Booking.com pioneered a lot of e-commerce dark patterns like “X units left” and “Y people viewed this today”. The EC pushed Booking.com to change its online sales tactics to be more transparent.
    • ykat7 5y ago
      Link to the European Commission's press release (2019) for anyone interested: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_19_6812 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_19_...
  • jb1991 5y ago
• iankp 5y ago
  TrustArc is a company used by major brands that utilizes dark patterns to FAKE opt-out time for GDRP compliance. Major companies employ lies. It will hold your browser captive for 2 minutes in hopes that you cancel or accept all. If you don't, it shows "We are processing the requested change to your cookie preferences. This may take up to a few minutes to process.". Not even incompetence could make this an honest process.
  • mschuster91 5y ago
    Well, given that some sites employ hundreds of trackers and other barely-above-malware stuff, it does make sense for these requests to take ages. Unfortunately, many people simply click on the "accept all" button and don't care about their privacy that much. The idea of GDPR was that consumers would be hesitant upon seeing the massive amount of third parties that use your data and demand change from the providers, turns out people don't care / providers rather let privacy-oriented customers suffer than to take a hit on their advertising profits.
    • iankp 5y ago
      The problem is their competitors manage to accomplish opting-out near instantly.
    • pta2002 5y ago
      But what requests would it even make? If you opt out you're effectively telling it to _not_ make any requests.
      • privacylawthrow 5y ago
        If it's the TrustArc Ads Compliance Manager, it makes a call to all the ad networks requesting the network's opt out cookie. The opt out cookie prevents the user from being tracked by that ad network across all sites. Cookie banner opt outs usually only prevent tracking from the site you are one. Unlike GDPR, which uses a website as the gate for all cookies, the ad industry also has self-regulatory programs. Participation in these programs require that a website allow a user to opt out of all ad networks present on their site. TrustArc built a module to do that: https://preferences-mgr.truste.com/ https://preferences-mgr.truste.com/. If you run the tool there, it will make a call to the ad networks listed. Of course if you're running an ad blocker, the call will get blocked and it will look like the tool doesn't do anything.
• fpig 5y ago
  The worst one is probably trying to make it hard for users to stop paying for a service, like cancelling a subscription. That shit should be punishable by literal prison time.
  • bmiller2 5y ago
    The worst I’ve seen was Nord VPN. Three or four modals / screens where the action to stop your subscription was the smaller, secondary UI element, almost not even noticeable. How a dev or PM can live with themselves while implementing that I have no idea.
    • nitrogen 5y ago
      How a dev or PM can live with themselves while implementing that I have no idea. Dev builds it the user-friendly way. PM uses Google Tag Manager to inject JS that changes the stylesheets to the evil way.
    • reaperducer 5y ago
      Nord has all kinds of problems. My Nord subscription went from $5/month to $200/month recently. When I complained, the CSR told me to just cancel the account and sign up using the special offer link and a throwaway e-mail address. That tells me there are deeper problems, and I'm not interested in doing business with that company.
  • dmix 5y ago
    About 10yrs ago NBA did this to me. They made it impossible to cancel a $99/m sub. Their instructions were login and go to the cancel button but the cancel button was broken and said call this number. But no one ever picked up the number. I will never buy a NBA branded thing after that obvious bullshit scam.
    • shiftpgdn 5y ago
      New York Times does this also. As far as I can tell it's literally impossible to cancel a subscription. I had to close the card attached to my account.
• Hnrobert42 5y ago
  It was surprisingly easy to register a comment. For those of you commenting here, consider clicking through and comment there.
  • rolandog 5y ago
    No kidding! I copy/pasted my HN comment verbatim, as it was also a question to verify if a tracker that runs constantly that isn't able to be blocked by domain counts as a Dark Pattern. Edit: Here is a link to that comment [0]. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27023236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27023236
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• dqv 5y ago
  Great I'm going to submit one about how the Apple iOS store forces you to get rid of your old devices and buy new ones. They make it extremely inconvenient to find out which apps are supported on your device. They don't hide the apps that aren't, so you are forced to download the app and wait to check to see if it's compatible or not.
  • jb1991 5y ago
    > you are forced to download the app and wait to check to see if it's compatible or no The App Store doesn’t let me download apps that are not compatible with my device.
    • dqv 5y ago
      >The App Store doesn’t let me download apps that are not compatible with my device. Let's not split hairs over this. I just got rid of my iPad that does. You tap "get" on the app and after doing something for 5-10 seconds it pops up a modal that says it's not compatible. Why was the app store showing apps to me that are not compatible or, rather, why was there no way to filter out the ones that are not compatible?
      • bogwog 5y ago
        > Why was the app store showing apps to me that are not compatible or, rather, why was there no way to filter out the ones that are not compatible? To show you what you're missing out by not buying the latest iPad
      • lostlogin 5y ago
        I’m not sure what I want with this - on MacOS it’s goddamn infuriating trying to download an OS that you want to install on a machine that isn’t the one you are browsing from. You can’t just use the App Store and end up doing all sorts of horrible things. I’ve commented on this before and had people send me links that show you can do it in the US App Store, but I can’t from NZ.
        • 5y ago
• rossmohax 5y ago
  When creating a member account within AWS Organization it asks for root account email, this address is never validated before account is created. If you made a typo in that email and it happen to be on a valid domain you have no access to, then it is impossible to close that account and support is refusing to do anyhing, even if you contact them immediately.
  • mrweasel 5y ago
    I’m not sure that’s a “dark pattern” that’s just AWS incompentence, spiced up with a dash of “no my department” in customer service.
• calrueb 5y ago
  Push notifications and their subtle ability to form usage habits (see notification -> open app -> browse feed) is a "Dark Pattern" that is used all across the consumer app industry. You can tell how focused a company is on growth and engagement by how many notifications you get a day (Clubhouse for instance slammed me with notifications until I shut them off).
  • andreilys 5y ago
    Clubhouse has one of the worst notification management systems ever. There’s no way to select specific notifications you want (e.g. person you follow starts a room). Instead you get inundated with useless notifications about random rooms.
• modshatereality 5y ago
  FTC website falls victim to the darkest pattern of all: relying on javascript to manipulate html elements, so this is just a blank page; yet another anti-HTML site.
• akomtu 5y ago
  Most of those dark patterns revolve around stealing personal data to sell it to data brokers, sometimes accompanied by extortion to give more of that data. If a big international corp made money by stealing bicycles or cars, its execs would quickly end up in prison, but this is what's happening right now in the internet. If our politicians had balls and moral, they would make it a crime to steal PII, unless the firm has a contract with the customer signed by ink, not transferrable, expiring in a year at most, with gov entities exempt. Unfortunately, PII theft has become the backbone of the modern economy.
• TheRealPomax 5y ago
  As a non-American: is this actually something the FTC has authority over?
  • dylan604 5y ago
    Maybe? We'll see what happens when/if they actually try. Lobbyists' phones are probably going off right now with big tech trying to spur them into action.
  • delecti 5y ago
    At least theoretically yes. One of their main purposes is to establish regulations to protect customers.
• MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  Here's a fun one: An e-commerce website that offers a subscription page for signup but requires you to contact customer service by phone or email in order for you to cancel. Went through this recently with Bespoke Post. I sent the cancellation email, their customer service person replied saying that they would instead suspend my subscription for three months, and required me to send them another email. I'd LOVE to see an FTC rule that requires companies who take subscriptions by web have link on the account page to unsubscribe by web.
• ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  I had an experience a couple of days ago with exactly this type of thing (I downloaded the comment form, and I'll send it in). In this case, it nearly cost the app maker a sale (I doubt they'll go out of business on the loss of my sale. As it happened, they didn't actually lose the sale). I wanted to ID some of the plants in my yard, looking for native vs. introduced, so I downloaded a couple of apps. One was a good one, but was really a "crowdsourced" one. I had to sign up for an account, and participate in a community. Not a showstopper; but not really what I was looking for. I'm into instant gratification. The other one was an ML-type app that would analyze photos in realtime. When I started it up, it immediately wanted me to get the in-app purchase to the "premium" version, which is actually a yearly subscription. The dark pattern, was how they did that. They obfuscated and deprecated the navigation to the free variant. It was almost impossible to see the buttons behind the premium banner, and it was difficult to actually touch them. At first, I immediately shitcanned the app, as I assumed that you were required to get a subscription before using it at all. I did a bit more research, and everyone was saying it was a decent app, and that it could be used without the subscription. So I tried it again. This time, I squinted, and found the links. It worked really well. I'll be getting the subscription. The moral of the story is that they were so big on a dark pattern, trying to force new users to start paying immediately, that they actually drive off sales. The app works well. They don't need to hide it. That's what apps that suck do. This app does not suck.
  • thraway123412 5y ago
    > The moral of the story is that they were so big on a dark pattern, I'll be getting the subscription. Yeah thanks for rewarding them for that.
    • ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
      >> The moral of the story is that they were so big on a dark pattern, I'll be getting the subscription. > Yeah thanks for rewarding them for that. That was not a nice thing to do -altering a quote, to make it appear as if I said something I didn't. I am leaving your response in its unmodified entirety, above. Look, you have your opinion, I have mine, but It's a decent app. I will be providing feedback to them -as a paying subscriber, there's a good chance my feedback will be heard. But the thing I have against dark patterns, is the same thing I have against what you did -it's dishonest.
• lima 5y ago
  Slack has a fun dark pattern - they purposefully remove functionality from their web app to make you install their native app. The web app has a workspace switcher sidebar, but it only appears on ChromeOS, where you can't install the native client. https://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/144258/slacks-web-version-shows-workspace-switching-sidebar-but-only-on-chromebooks https://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/144258/slacks-we...
  • Mixtape 5y ago
    Reddit is just as guilty of this. If you want to see all the comments on a thread on their mobile site, you're pushed to install their official app and presumably create an account when doing so. As far as I can tell, the best workaround is to use the desktop site.
    • Trasmatta 5y ago
      Not just the website, but the old.reddit version. The new Reddit design is a disaster in terms of usability. I also disable all custom subreddit styles, because so many of them are horrible.
      • rvbissell 5y ago
        r/mildlyinfuriating's custom style is a work of art.
    • ryandrake 5y ago
      Also Zoom. Their web version seems to no longer work on Safari/Mac and Firefox/Mac, so they essentially force you onto native or don't use it.
      • noisem4ker 5y ago
        I don't know about macOS specifically, but elsewhere it can be defeated. The link to join from the browser appears if you dismiss the initial offer to open the app and force a retry. It's absolutely disgusting. https://gauginggadgets.com/join-zoom-meeting-without-installing-zoom/ https://gauginggadgets.com/join-zoom-meeting-without-install...
• tracer4201 5y ago
  I was shopping on Eddie Bauer about 15 minutes ago. They have a great deal on t-shirts and shorts, which they plastered all over the page. It works like this - the more items you buy, you get a bigger discount. Great - that makes sense. But there’s a catch. If I shop in a store, I simply go to the counter, get the discount upon checkout, pay, and I’m on my way. On their website, I have to use a promo code. So I have to remember what the promo code was and enter it at checkout. Okay — that seems kind of like a dark pattern. Here’s where they lost my trust. By the time I got to the checkout page, they asked for all my shipping and billing details and then gave me the final purchase button. I just happened to then realize that wait — I was supposed to enter in a promo code! So then I had to back out to find the promo code again, and on checkout, I have to scroll down a full screens worth of real estate BELOW the purchase button to enter the promo code. So they advertise the discount up front but then use shady tactics hoping I either forget to use the promo code or even if I want to, I give up trying to find it and just pay full price. Needless to say I decided not to purchase from them. It’s dishonest and not worthy of my business.
• pja 5y ago
  Hah. Literally an hour ago I fat-fingered the “Sign up to Amazon Music!” button in the Amazon Music App on my phone whilst putting the phone in my pocket. To be fair to Amazon though, they do let you cancel the subscription online with no bullshit & you still get to keep the 90 day free trial -- presumably they hope you’ll like the service enough to decide to pay for it anyway. (The worst example I know of this “single button press sign-up” pattern was Nassim Taleb accidentally signing up to pay for a software upgrade to his Tesla in the Tesla App that cost $1000s & having no way to undo it except shouting loudly at Tesla / Elon Musk on Twitter.)
  • andy81 5y ago
    Let's not give Amazon a free ride, cancelling the Prime trial was some real bullshit last time I tried. The option was hidden behind several pages of "Here's what you'll miss out on" and "You still have x days remaining, why not check out these shows" and "confirm" buttons with slightly different position/text/color.
• tobiasSoftware 5y ago
  The dark pattern I've been seeing a lot lately is billing services trying to make you go paperless. I've seen all sorts of dark patterns around it, from subtle things such as it being the second of three options where you need to check options 1 and 3 every month, to it literally being checked by default and buried in the middle of a "we are just checking up on you to make sure you have all your options set correctly" splash screen.
  • ryandrake 5y ago
    Yup, I've been fooled into going paperless on my utility bills a number of times. No idea how I did it, AND they often get "confused" when you want to restore paper service. I've had to call PG&E a number of times recently and they still are failing to send paper bills.
  • lucb1e 5y ago
    Genuine question: why'd you want bills to be shipped on paper? Is there some legal requirement to keep paper records in the USA and you don't want to have to own a printer or something? Every time I get a paper bill I'm annoyed, like, just send me an email, then I drag it into the right folder and it's done. Speedy, sortable, searchable. (Of course you will want to have back-ups, but one generally wants backups for one's files anyway.) The weirdest instance of this is my electricity company that has a fairly high price but also invests in renewable energy and they send me paper bills. Like, they of all companies should get that I don't want someone to drive to my house to deliver information that, usually, I already knew about anyway. Dutch tax office also takes their time to send me letters from abroad... two weeks after I already received it digitally and opened it. They can see I read it on their website, but they still post a physical letter more than a week later. And it always contains "you owe us nothing & we owe you nothing" because I don't live/work there anymore. So stupid, I hate letters, so I'm really curious why you'd want this!
    • tobiasSoftware 5y ago
      For me personally, my wife is an immigrant so a paper trail is important. Before that though, I think there was a time where companies didn't email out the records, so they'd keep the records for a year or two and then you would lose access to them, but the IRS wants several years if you get audited. Nowadays though, if it wasn't for my personal situation then I probably would have switched to saving off a digital record.
• ThrowawayR2 5y ago
  I wonder of loot boxes in mobile and other video games would count? Seems like it ought to.
• dd36 5y ago
  Clubhouse scraping all your phone numbers to find someone on the app is dark.
• latenightcoding 5y ago
  twitter randomly deciding that the account you created 5 minutes ago is suspicious and they will block it until you provide your phone number. also all of medium and linkedin
• jokoon 5y ago
  I'm really curious how you can outlaw dark patterns.
  • ratww 5y ago
    The same way one can outlaw murder and other crimes. Not sure I understand the question. Outlawing means it can still happen, but you have to enforce, investigate, catch the perpetrator, go to trial, and punish in a way. Or just apply a fine that you can appeal.
  • 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
    Dark patterns aren't fundamentally new, they've just recently taken on a new form in software. An example of an old dark pattern was that a company would simply mail people unsolicited merchandise, and then bill them an inflated price for it if it wasn't returned. In that case, the (US) law was changed to specify that any such unsolicited shipment is presumed to be a gift and the sender is not entitled to payment for it. The FTC has been dealing with this kind of crap for over a century. The key is that this is in the context of advertising and trade practices, not viewpoint or artistic style. You'll still be able to include fictional dark patterns in your post-cyberpunk visual novel if you want to.
• OliverGilan 5y ago
  i think there are some rather great comments/examples of Dark Patterns in this thread and I just want to remind everyone to also submit those as public comment to the FTC! Just posting it on HN won't get it in front of the people who can make a difference!
• ModernMech 5y ago
  I don't know if this counts as a dark pattern but it really ticked me off when this happened: when YouTube on iPad changed to require a paid subscription to play content while the screen is turned off. What kind of fresh hell is that? I have to pay to use a hardware feature? What's the next move, requiring me to purchase a subscription to adjust the volume or the screen brightness? Actually this reminds me of another annoyance: playing ads at a higher volume than the content. I tend to listen to content very softly to prevent hearing loss, and whenever an ad comes on I find myself turning the volume down, only to turn it up again when the content comes back.
  • sunshineforever 5y ago
    Thank you for posting this because that's the dark pattern that I was trying to remember myself. This one has aggravated me beyond anything else on the entire internet. I hope for the return of newpipe soon.
• thysultan 5y ago
  MacOS keeps asking me to update software every night. dark pattern. lawsuit incoming...
• pcarolan 5y ago
  I think a more effective route forward here is for places like YC to set standards for their portfolio companies. Only the strongest investors can do this, but once they do, it will setup a new playing field and the YC brand could mean 'no dark patterns here' in the way that buying an Apple product signifies quality hardware and privacy. It could act as an 'integrity' label that companies purchasing software would use when evaluating new products. YC companies are better than most at this, but I've seen a few bad actors lately that have caused me to question whether its true across the board.
  • novok 5y ago
    Consumers do not know what YC is, and I'm not sure if YC wants to become a consumer brand certification.
    • bogwog 5y ago
      I used this site for years without knowing what YC was. EDIT: also, I still don't 100% know what it is. Afaik, it's like shark tank but IRL for people in silicon valley.
    • pcarolan 5y ago
      YC, like all companies, is a brand. It is already expressed by alumni when applying for a job. It is sought by employers as a mark of validation that the person works hard and fast and knows how to innovate. As YC scales and graduates more companies, they want to optimize their return on investment. Those companies that graduate from YC want to make sure their companies raise capital at a premium when future fundraising and ultimately IPOing or being acquired. The YC network is a thing in the VC community and a mark of a high opportunity investment. Today, some purchasing managers are aware of its alumni companies and use it as a litmus that the company is cutting edge and innovative. Maybe most don't. Since sales ultimately lead to higher company valuations, perhaps this is something YC would want to focus on?
    • thunkshift1 5y ago
      I think this is less about yc aiming for customer brand recognition and more about doing the right thing for the companies which want yc funding, which will serve products to said customers.
• einpoklum 5y ago
  I can offer them some comments about dark patterns in government regulation.
• ryandrake 5y ago
  Although not software, gym memberships are notorious for using all manner of slimy tactics to keep you paying. Online reps can't do anything, your local gym somehow never has a "manager" around who can do anything. You can "freeze" your account but then they can just arbitrarily unfreeze and start charging you again. Very close to having my CC company issue a charge-back to our local gym for fraud. Very shady and hopefully these can be made illegal.
  • bilalq 5y ago
    A gym I had a membership with wouldn't let me cancel in person and insisted I do so via registered mail. So incredibly slimy.
    • lucb1e 5y ago
      That's one option that always works, and people don't seem to get that. While it's scummy that you have to do it that way (that's obviously bollocks), this would also be the way to tell them to stop charging you if their customer support won't pick up, their email server rejects yours as spam, the web form is broken, that sort of shit (people elsewhere in the thread mention a million-and-one instances of this, not realizing that there is another way). Send them a letter and be done with it.
  • gundmc 5y ago
    Yes! Cancelling my 24 Hour Fitness membership was a nightmare. I also found out that the name is not indicative of their 6 AM to 8 PM hours. Horrible experience all around.
    • Clampower 5y ago
      One of the largest gym chains here is called Fit for Free. It’s very much not free.
  • amalcon 5y ago
    There was a chain of gyms in Boston that famously required you to go there in person to cancel. When they closed due to COVID, they continued charging their members. The closure prevented members from both cancelling and making use of gym services. That got shut down pretty quickly, but it's telling that they even thought they could get away with something so brazen.
• kingsuper20 5y ago
  The internet was nice while it lasted. I'm thinking that that guy on youtube who builds cabins from scratch in Canada with the charming Golden Retriever ('My Self Reliance') probably has the right idea. Maybe the right answer is a terminal that does email, banking, and Amazon.
  • diveanon 5y ago
    How can you bemoan what the internet has become and support Amazon in the comment?
    • kingsuper20 5y ago
      Because they are one of the few internet companies that I find actually useful. If you live in a rural area, there's really no other way. A new PC, a floor jack, large book store, decent boots, are all 60 miles away. Of course, Amazon caused part of the retail desert, although I'd mostly blame box stores (and the Sears catalog before that). With the sites I named, I think my life would trundle on pretty much unchanged. Maybe Usenet could be added to the list for the odd bit of online socializing. While I'm designing my personal minimal internet, I'd add that all the interfaces were text based. Potentially a person could bolt on a low/no vision voice-based front-end.
      • wincy 5y ago
        Before the Sears catalog you instead had local monopolies by general store owners who could be absolute tyrants since there weren’t any cars. Getting what you need has always been difficult unless you literally live where it’s being made, which these days is Shenzhen or Guangzhou or somewhere like that. The Rise and Fall of American Growth [0] is a fascinating book that talks about how much the Sears catalog revolutionized commerce in rural America. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-American-Growth-Princeton/dp/153661825X/ref=nodl_ https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-American-Growth-Princeton/d...
    • reaperducer 5y ago
      How can you bemoan what the internet has become and support Amazon in the comment? Amazon is a lifeline for people who live in remote places, which is what I think he means by cabins in Canada. Amazon is the new Sears Catalog, enabling people who live pretty much anywhere in North America to buy things quickly and safely that are not available to them any other way. Pre-pandemic I spent a lot of time with people who live in places where a "supermarket run" happens every other month, when the person with the largest truck drives three hours to the nearest Costco to fill ten grocery lists for all the neighbors. Amazon handles the days in between.
• hereme888 5y ago
  Every modern video game
• dkdk8283 5y ago
  Notification abuse and autoplay
• anoncow 5y ago
  The FTC should create a set of guidelines named for example "Good Software Design Practices" (either directly or through an industry standards body) which developers can follow voluntarily. Companies or bodies should then be able to rate software objectively based on the GSDP using a lay-public friendly star rating. The rating could be further broken up into sub-ratings for specific design sub-topics. This could then become a default way for companies to self-appraise their software on distribution platforms. Anyone including distribution platforms should be able to validate such ratings based on certain objective criteria.
• bogwog 5y ago
  A common one is fake consent popups for system notifications. Websites need to ask for consent before sending system notifications via the Notifications API. If a user declines, that website is blocked from asking again (for obvious reasons) But many websites cheat this by showing a fake consent popup designed to mimic what the browser would show. If a user clicks "Decline" on the fake popup, the website won't show the real one to avoid being blocked. So the next time you visit the site, they'll be able to show you that popup again as many times as they want. If a user finally clicks "Accept" on the fake popup (out of frustration probably) then they'll show the real popup. To most people, seeing two popups might seem like a glitch, and will just mindlessly click "Accept" twice. The only way to circumvent this is to click "Accept" on the fake popup, and then click "Decline" on the real one. 99% of people aren't going to know how to do that. ...I'd post this myself as a comment, but I don't like that it's asking for so much personal information (full name, email, state, city, phone, etc)
  • suifbwish 5y ago
    I found that a lot of those have commonly named elements you can create rules for in noscript so you never see them. Not sure if it would effect the dark pattern ones though.
  • Stratoscope 5y ago
    I get these all the time on mobile websites, and arrived at the same solution you did: tap Accept on the fake popup and then Block on the real consent box. I suppose a site could trick me by making their fake popup look exactly like the real one. But in that case I would tap Block and be no worse off, other than seeing the same notification again the next time, at which point I would probably figure out their trick. I thought of explaining this to some friends to help spare them some needless popups, but decided it was too complicated and would likely just confuse them. This is not an insult toward my friends, just a reminder that something that seems simple to you or me may be very puzzling for most people, no matter how intelligent they are.
    • enedil 5y ago
      The real popup in Chrome and Firefox exceeds the website frame, so you can easily distinguish it.
• UweSchmidt 5y ago
  Any kind of choice between "yes" and "later". That's BS. If you offer "yes" you must offer "no".
  • sippeangelo 5y ago
    This drives me nuts on Twitter. "See less often" is not what I want, and it doesn't even work.
  • mtone 5y ago
    Connecting to a Microsoft Teams of Office work account from home gives you the fantastic "Use this account everywhere on your device". It has 4 effective choices [0] with no clue about what's going to happen to your windows account and what data or remote control permissions will be sent to your organization. [0]: https://engineering.purdue.edu/ECN/Support/KB/Docs/HomePCsuddenlyreports/img.png https://engineering.purdue.edu/ECN/Support/KB/Docs/HomePCsud...
  • gundmc 5y ago
    Yes, but have you tried YouTube Premium?
• ibraheemdev 5y ago
  darkpatterns.org is a pretty good reference: https://www.darkpatterns.org https://www.darkpatterns.org
• gnicholas 5y ago
  I can't believe that the Microsoft Teams software automatically reinstalls itself in my login items every time I open it. I don't use it often — mostly when I have calls with people at Microsoft — but this happens without fail every time. As far as I'm concerned, this makes the Teams software malware. I have never had any other software that repeatedly put itself into my login items that wasn't clearly malware. If I worked on Teams, I would be embarrassed.
  • etripe 5y ago
    Is it at all possible Teams is coming back due to a company group policy?
    • gnicholas 5y ago
      It’s a personal computer.
  • user3939382 5y ago
    Google Chrome’s update software does this on Mac, every time it launches it tries to reinstall its auto starting updater. Adobe does this as well.
• dqpb 5y ago
  How does the FTC consume these public comments? I just read a few of them and the quality is very low - rambling, unspecific, non-sensical.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
• ajaimk 5y ago
  Every OneTrust pop-up for GDPR I've seen is using multiple dark patterns to trick you into giving access to more than essential cookies.
• zkid18 5y ago
  Unpopular opinion, but as a developer I'm OK with using dark patterns for a certain projects when it comes to pricing, but not to churn prevention. In niches with low margins and high competition, dark patterns are one of the few chances to survive and make money (ticket aggregators, hotel aggregations) The user can pay $10 or $15 depends on how you communicate the value almost with the same set of features. However, for the product, the difference affects the business model and the unit economy dramatically. Of course, subscription cancelling penalties sucks and should be ban.
  • jfk13 5y ago
    > I'm OK with using dark patterns for a certain projects when it comes to pricing You're right, it's an unpopular opinion. If you're in a niche where you have to use dark patterns to survive, grow a conscience and find a different niche.
• ck425 5y ago
  I'm not sure if this counts as a dark pattern but any system with a notification dot should allow you to disable it or change the colour on it.
• harrybr 5y ago
  Please don’t just vent here - submit your comments to the FTC website!
• easterncalculus 5y ago
  One example for sure is the endless CAPTCHAs you receive on virtually any large website when you attempt to connect from TOR. Each time you solve one it takes forever just to complain about how you spending several minutes selecting every 'light' suddenly isn't good enough to prove your humanity. You're not "checking if I'm human" 60 times in a row, you're blocking me for not wanting to be tracked on your website.
  • busymom0 5y ago
    Would be so much better for them to simply tell you "we do not allow using our site via TOR" which is totally understandable instead of such nonsense.
  • justinph 5y ago
    Can happen with non-TOR, too. Cloudflare is a cancer on the web for this kind of awfulness.
    • hda2 5y ago
      For me, Cloudflare and hCaptcha walls are solved problems with things like Privacy Pass. It's Google's never-ending captcha system that prevents me from browsing the web. They continue refusing to support Privacy Pass like other big players for some reason that is certainly not related to free labor and going around US labor laws.
    • privacyking 5y ago
      Google's captcha is orders of magnitude worse.
  • magnetowasright 5y ago
    I experience this using Firefox temporary container extension, some other privacy extensions/settings, and a pihole. The worst bit is when it refuses to let you use an audio captcha; I can’t believe they’re allowed to take away accessibility on a whim. Not that it really makes much difference to the website but I’ll usually give up and maybe send them an email if I care enough to let them know that it’s not accessible. The captcha where you slide the puzzle piece into place I’ve found is a much better user experience and presumably achieves the same goals (minus helping train image recognition). It’s a little bit ugly/looks like one of those spam interactive banner ads but I wish more sites used it anyway if they need protection.
• max_ 5y ago
  The failure is is not regulators that have failed to "regulate". It is designers of the tech (browsers, Operating systems) that have failed to come up with systems that are difficult for devs to abuse.
  • Ensorceled 5y ago
    How does Firefox stop the "impossible unsubscribe" dark pattern that NYTimes uses?
    • max_ 5y ago
      Gmail for instance rolled out a feature for stuff just like this [0]. Firefox also has really great features like containers that keep your web activity isolated from other web applications. [1]. I wish there was more innovation in this space though. [0]: https://www.google.com/amp/s/blog.leavemealone.app/how-does-the-gmail-unsubscribe-button-work/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/blog.leavemealone.app/how-does-... [1]: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1201060#answer-1068101 https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1201060#answer-1...
      • josephcsible 5y ago
        You're mixing up two completely different meanings of "unsubscribe". Gmail's unsubscribe feature is to stop you from getting emails from a mailing list. It's powerless against recurring payments.
        • max_ 5y ago
          OP didn't specify. As for payments, your card provider should be able to show you what services are deducting money from your account. And it should also give you a way to "pause" or revoke payment subscriptions. It is not "powerless" as NYT doesn't control your bank account.
  • inetknght 5y ago
    It is absolutely a failure of regulators to regulate. It's not only a failure of regulators. Designers of the tech are doing it because it's legal. It's legal because regulators aren't enforcing laws in ways conducive to modern tech.
• austincheney 5y ago
  A roughly 70% solution is to mandate WCAG 2.1 AA conformance. After that the problems largely distill down to misleading and deceptive content. Deceptive content resulting in a financial harm not as a result of a technical defect is fraud. How to prove fraud in court? Easy, make them liable for presenting accessibility conformance against the issue in question. The defendant only has to demonstrate a good faith effort to account for and correct the issue, but if they cannot do that, because fraud is intentional, take them to the cleaners.
• kerng 5y ago
  I dislike it when companies allow you to sign up via mobile, but then dont allow you to cancel via the mobile app. I had this with Hello Fresh, where I had to log in on web to cancel (which I had never done before) - seemed quite annoying and I decided to never use the service again for that reason alone.
• pizza 5y ago
  Not sure if this counts but yesterday I saw that skipping updates is now a Pro feature in Docker Desktop!
• lazyeye 5y ago
  The best example of a dark pattern for me is Google's privacy settings. Such a ridiculously convoluted and unintuitive process. The polar opposite of everything else they try to do.
• rosmax_1337 5y ago
  What is the most reasonable way that "we" and people like us on HN could do to prevent Dark Patterns as they are right now? Maybe the FTC will prevent some in the future, maybe they won't, I don't put much hope into it. Lawmaking on the internet right now is a mess, and GDPR whilst it might have had good intents ended up being a big mistake imo. (Certainly the whole consent-cookie thing is a mistake) We can all promise not to implement Dark Patterns in the software we write. But the good old "personal boycott" isn't really working, and hasn't really been working since forever. If for example Youtube won't allow you to turn off your screen on a mobile device, unless you buy premium (turning off the screen is a hardware feature, not a website feature), then the solution isn't really to stop using Youtube. There isn't an alternative. Man, when I think about this stuff I can get kinda jaded. Antidotes like youtube-dl, or ublock origin work, but they only work for "us", and not everyone else who has to live in the Dark Pattern hellhole that the internet is turning into. I meet people who have never heard of an adblocker, still in 2021. And even if "we" all stop implementing Dark Patterns, there will be plenty of other cheap hires who will gladly implement the same features when we refuse to do that kind of stuff. And if you're in a bad enough spot it would leave you out of work even. What if there was some kind of union? Like say something called "union of ethical software", which may more technically be a international non-profit rather than a union, which does a few different things: 1) Establishes open standards for how things should work, in regards to "ethical software", rather than say technical standards. 2) Has a donation fund which funds A) A small team of lawyers/tech-people, who will on a strategic basis defend cases where an employee might end up in trouble refusing to implement features which are in conflict with 1). Not to primarily save employees, but to primarily scare tech-giants from going for the "do it or ill fire you stick immediately". B) A small team of educators and speakers, who would spend time creating educational content and essentially political content as to garner public opinion in favor of all this, the types of people to appear on say TV during a big case against for example Google. I'm just throwing ideas at the wall here though. Saw another comment here about living in a off-grid cabin. That sounds very nice, and better each day. ...The ESITF, Ethical Standards for Information Technology Foundation. Did it have a ring?
• robinj6 5y ago
  Love that this website requires following a link for every comment.
• robinj6 5y ago
  Worst dark pattern IMHO these days is the free trial that requires a credit card and rolls right into subscription, especially when it defaults to annual and there’s an early cancellation fee. Canceling subscriptions is also a labyrinth that differs by site.
• eh9 5y ago
  Would companies that promise “securing your iPhone” count as a dark pattern? They just seem to trick people into thinking their phone is vulnerable and can only be protected by their software instead of an OTA update.
• da39a3ee 5y ago
  This is in need of some context. What is a Dark Pattern and why is it capitalized?
• yawnxyz 5y ago
  I hate it when Linkedin or Lunchclub does a "connect your friends!" and you accidentally click a button and it literally launches spam invites for your entire address book. Worst part is that NO ONE has ever called them out for such a dark pattern, but the pattern forces ppl to send unsolicited emails to their contacts AND pretends it's meant to be sent by the person. Incredibly devious
  • swiley 5y ago
    I completely stopped using linkedin once I realized they were doing this. I don't think my career has suffered.
  • sircastor 5y ago
    I accidentally signed into gmail via LinkedIn a while back and it caused me grief for months. I had to write a number of apologetic emails, and I’m still annoyed at LinkedIn -it’s been 13 years.
    • whymauri 5y ago
      This has happened a few times with alumni from my college, except their address book automatically syncs large mailing lists are contacts... This results in a LinkedIn invite getting sent out to thousands, if not tens of thousands of people. Literally malware-level behavior.
  • ryandrake 5y ago
    This one is kind of on the os platform though. I can’t think of a legit use case where an app should get access to every single contact in my address book. This is incredibly personal information, and should be guarded better, perhaps by asking consent for each access and for each contact. The app should have to explain in detail why it wants access to a particular contact.
    • anoncake 5y ago
      > I can’t think of a legit use case where an app should get access to every single contact in my address book. To manage your contacts? The permission to access all your contacts does need to exist, even if it's currently overused.
• chrischattin 5y ago
  AirBnB doesn’t show what the place actually costs until you get to the “Reserve” screen. Then the cleaning fee, service fee, occupancy fees and taxes are added up. I’ve seen it literally double the advertised price. I’ve used AirBnB heavily over the past few years and am a huge fan of the business model in general. But, I view this practice as borderline unethical. I’m sure it A/B tests well, but it’s super annoying having to make several extra clicks just to see what you’re actually going to pay for the place at checkout.
  • m-ee 5y ago
    I’ve noticed recently that many of the places on Airbnb are also listed on VRBO, and usually cheaper for some reason. VRBO also lets you filter by total price from the start.
• elliekelly 5y ago
  Well it’s quite clear that none of the commenters so far have read the document they’re commenting on and almost none of them seem able to distinguish between “software” and the internet. And I can’t say I blame them. I know the fenty website isn’t software but what about facebook and amazon? I don’t really consider them software but I suppose most of their users access the site(s) through iOS and android apps which I would consider software.
  • bobmaxup 5y ago
    Why is a website not software?
    • elliekelly 5y ago
      You know, I really don’t know! I guess I would consider them documents - akin to a pdf with javascript enabled or an excel file that uses macros. But perhaps that’s a dated point of view?
• steve-benjamins 5y ago
  Web.com charges 13 months in a year. They bill months in 4 week intervals— so a month = 28 days which = 13 months per year. This is all in their fine print. Screenshot: https://twitter.com/stevebenjamins/status/1385319924567003137 https://twitter.com/stevebenjamins/status/138531992456700313...
  • ryandrake 5y ago
    Such a simple and blatant example of false advertising. Why does the FTC need to request comments? Just take action and crush this stuff! We are so careful about making businesses sad in this country.
  • MereInterest 5y ago
    Ooh, your twitter link reminded me of a twitter dark pattern. Twitter makes a distinction between a visitor who has never had an account, and a visitor who had an account but is currently logged out. I made an account in order to test their API, then logged out. From then until when I cleared cookies from twitter, every publicly visible post was denied access, prompting me to log in to view them.
    • andreareina 5y ago
      Same with Google Groups
  • VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
    Report it on Regulations.gov! Posting a comment on HN does nothing.
  • hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
    I don't think I would call this a dark pattern as much as just false advertising. Putting an asterisk that links to teeny fine print where they say "a month is not a month" does not absolve them, and if there were enough money at stake (guessing there probably isn't) any competent lawyer should be able to get a good class action out of this.
  • 5y ago
• nopeYouAreWrong 5y ago
  This might not belong here but I think there's something to be said for the changes Google makes and is currently making around Performance and Page Ranking. Black box bullsh!t metrics forcing everyone to appease the magical algorithms in their highly questionable tool. Their own framework fails here significantly.
• alexfromapex 5y ago
  Facebook and Instagram forcing users to enable tracking. Also network effects and how to combat them would be interesting.
• bakatubas 5y ago
  Honestly all websites should support a no-script, static version to prevent 90% of the webs BS. We used to be able to view sites with JavaScript disabled and actually things would work. Also, instead of arbitrary cookies why not standardize authentication/authorization security mechanisms to avoid having those stupid cookie pop ups. At this point there are common web pattern which separates the essentials from the BS—so why not get rid of the BS and keep the good stuff?
• brundolf 5y ago
  It's really no different from the deceptive advertising, food labels, etc. that were rampant at the beginning of the 20th century. I'm glad we appear to still have functioning regulatory bodies to deal with the new incarnations of the same old schemes.
• aj7 5y ago
  Here is what I wrote: There are straightforward language and practices that the FTC should mandate for online purchases. 1. The FIRST option in any screen or sequence that could result in a purchase must be affirmatively worded to clearly indicate a purchase is being made or a transition to a screen to purchase will be initiated by choosing that option. The word YES shall be included in any option to buy. 2. If second or subsequent options also initiate a purchase, they must similarly be affirmatively worded. 3. All sequences must TERMINATE with a negatively worded decline option, in the SAME font, size and style. 1-3 seek to enforce a standard wherein consumers can EXPECT the first and intermediate options to be BUYING options, and the last option to be a DECLINING option. 4. Double negative wording is not allowed. 5. Check boxes shall NEVER be pre-filled in. Use check boxes, they must all be blank. In general, an action by the consumer shall never be required to cancel a preinserted assent. 6. Purchasing screen. At some point, a screen is arrived at where the purchaser’s credit or bank information is obtained, and the purchase completed. Wording near the TOP of this screen, and in the LARGEST font visible on this screen must reinforce to the consumer that she is about to make a purchase. (Banks and airlines, which incur significant costs to correct purchases or payments consumers consider incorrect, are an excellent source of ideas for this screen.)
• motohagiography 5y ago
  "renewing," card billing cycles. LinkedIn advertising "renewed" the amount of my fixed ad spend multiple times, turning a ~$200 spend into almost $2,000 WITHOUT an email notification. I did not discover it until I got my credit card bill. They use their internal support interface web tool to manage the support commitments to customers, so they memoryholed their reps commitment to refund my money, which they did not. Any other so-called subscription services need at LEAST as much consent from you to bill you as they do to add and remove you from mailing lists.
• hackernj 5y ago
  How about a less racist title such as Dire Patterns or Suspicious Patterns?
• arthurcolle 5y ago
  Love the delightful conversation we're having here about dark patterns. I find them personally disgusting and I allocate a specific amount of time on a biweekly basis to have personal retrospectives on what services I am not using/have realized I hate using, so it's great that the FTC is stepping up on this front. That being said, remember the Cobra effect and that trying to combat one problem can cause an immediately perverse, unintended consequence when you try to solve a problem in this manner. Maybe I'm misusing concepts a bit but in my thinking - perhaps exposing all the immediately obvious "Dark Patterns" as they are perceived now will lead to immediate ingestion of this newly found consumer-originating response set (like this post) which will potentially enable the alleged actors in question who engage in these actions to be even better equipped at creating new, dare I say, darker patterns
• nfRfqX5n 5y ago
  airbnb issues refunds as credit. when you go to book a place, the default option to pay is "pay half now, half later". the trick is, they don't let you use credit for the 2nd payment. users can only find this by digging through the rules. currently dealing with this as I am just trying to use my credit due to covid cancellations (credits also EXPIRE after a year)
  • thunkshift1 5y ago
    Yup this is a good (bad? ) one.. this forced customer lock in is definitely a dark pattern
  • nfRfqX5n 5y ago
    there's also no way to check your credit balance until you're at the payment step of a new booking. you have to ask support to tell you how much you have and when it expires. absolutely insane
• nicbou 5y ago
  The worst one is a tool that lets you invest a lot of time in creating a result, then refuses to let you see/download/print/submit it without creating an account. This requirement is not disclosed until you have invested a lot of time in the product. This is very common with price calculators and online image editors.
  • deviation 5y ago
    This is a very common theme in many resumé websites, preying on people desperate for work. They won't prompt you to pay a dime, but will let you design and write up your perfect resumé for over an hour... All before charging you $x for a one-time download or losing it all.
• snu 5y ago
  Am I the only one who thinks its crazy it has taken them this long to do anything about this? This has been a real problem for well over 20 years. Anyone else remember internet explorer toolbars? So many installers would include these, and avoiding installing them became progressively more difficult over time. They started with a simple checkbox that was enabled by default (bad enough if you ask me), then progressed to hiding the checkbox behind a button labeled 'Advanced Settings' or similar, then progressed to popping up another dialog that looked like another step in the install process, but required you to press 'cancel' to not install the toolbar and go back to the regular installer. There are probably many more worse examples, but this is all that springs to mind at the moment. To an advanced user, these didn't seem like much - until you tried to use your grandma's computer and realized there were 10 toolbars installed...
  • judge2020 5y ago
    Most consumers really don't care since they can just buy an iPhone and call it a day, largely distancing themselves from most dark patterns (which doesn't eliminate them). Maybe leadership or culture in the agencies involved has changed to the point where they'll actually look out for consumers before they start complaining on such a large scale.
• hda2 5y ago
  The "hold-your-offline-device-hostage-until-you-attempt-to-connect" pattern. It goes something like this: When setting up a new unlinked kindle device, Amazon tries to trick you into connecting to the internet by showing a wifi setup screen that cannot be skipped. The only way to skip it is to supply the device with bad credentials and let it attempt to connect and fail. Only when it fails will it allow its owner to skip that step. Microsoft has also started employing the same strategy in windows 10. Within the first year of setting up windows 10 locally, the user will be presented with a screen they can't dismiss until they link their local user account with an online microsoft account. Again, the workaround here is to let windows try to connect with bad credentials. Once it has failed to login, it will allow the user, a child who urgently needed to get to her online classes in my case, to skip this step. Words can't describe the contempt I have for companies who engage in these patterns.
  • thejosh 5y ago
    Microsoft has really pushed this in the recent(?) versions of Windows 10. When it was first released it wasn't this bad, now it pretty much forces you during install to link an account then also forces you later (as you mentioned).
    • jwitthuhn 5y ago
      Yeah this is still happening in Windows 10. I reinstalled Win 10 Pro recently and the only way to make a local account during initial setup was to unplug the ethernet cable on my desktop. As long as an internet connection is up, it isn't even a hidden option.
      • rocqua 5y ago
        I did a reinstall of windows pro N last week, and had the PC connected to the network. It required a few non-prominent buttons, but I manged to only make a local account. I was still caught out by the security questions though. I suppose this might be the difference due to the N version. If I recall this leaves out some of the default media encoders to avoid some anti-trust legislation in Europe. Might be that they are slightly less aggresive with these dark patterns in that version.
• ineptech 5y ago
  Namecheap - buy a domain, see an addon for wordpress hosting that includes "free SSL!" It doesn't include a cert; they charge $6/yr and refuse to integrate with letsencrypt. The "free ssl" is for yourdomain.theirdomain.com.
• deadmutex 5y ago
  Are comments on HN going to make it way to the government? If not, I hope people realize that they should probably comment on regulations.gov site as well.
• bredren 5y ago
  “Non profit” organizations employ dark patterns as well. The Burning Man Organization had a stack of them, even iterated on them last year trying to avoid refunding ticket money.
• A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  I did not decide if I submit it there yet, but my current, and more common annoyance is with random, unwanted and unneeded items added to my cart sneakily at the end of the checkout process. Edible arrangements, flower places are the worst with this kind of behavior.
• shockeychap 5y ago
  How about hiding user comments behind a click so that you can’t read multiple comments at once? How about requiring unnecessary PII to solicit feedback? How about presenting a redundant set of vague and unnecessary elements like a “Comment ID” AND a “Tracking Number”? Leave it to the federal government to utilize three dark patterns on a website soliciting feedback on the very subject. sigh
• rhaksw 5y ago
  Reddit shows you your removed comments as if they're not removed, and you get no notification. I made a site that shows this [1]. Try it here [2]. [1] https://www.reveddit.com/about/faq/ https://www.reveddit.com/about/faq/ [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/CantSayAnything/about/sticky https://www.reddit.com/r/CantSayAnything/about/sticky
  • asimilator 5y ago
    Is this a dark pattern? I'm ok with shadow bans if they're reserved for those egregiously abusive users who ruin the community for everyone else. Let them shout into the void.
    • rhaksw 5y ago
      I think it is dark to show you your comment as if it's not removed, and many say shadow removals are overused (see "what people say" [1]). Only the mods know it works this way. [1] https://www.reveddit.com/about/ https://www.reveddit.com/about/
• jiggawatts 5y ago
  Connecting to an Azure AD / Office 365 account from a desktop application will pop up a dialog box with a small hidden blue link on the bottom left corner to "log in to this application only". The big button in the usual OK position will let the organisation manage your device, including pushing software to it and remote wiping. Even if it's not their device. Even if you're just logging in to one app, one time. Microsoft is blatantly using dark patterns to inflate their InTune numbers, at the expense of user privacy and choice.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  • judge2020 5y ago
    One other interesting interaction I found was that the org can seemingly tie certain setting to your Windows activation key. I've been using an Education license to W10 on my school laptop and it has "Some of these settings are hidden or managed by your organization". https://i.judge.sh/heavy/Sunburst/ApplicationFrameHost_nhjT7lFqmP.png https://i.judge.sh/heavy/Sunburst/ApplicationFrameHost_nhjT7... https://i.judge.sh/stupid/Derpy/ApplicationFrameHost_G2GR6fWHcf.png https://i.judge.sh/stupid/Derpy/ApplicationFrameHost_G2GR6fW... https://i.judge.sh/blind/Yasuko/ApplicationFrameHost_60KjQ1Vieq.png https://i.judge.sh/blind/Yasuko/ApplicationFrameHost_60KjQ1V...
    • w7 5y ago
      Are you sure this isn't related to any GPOs set by yourself? I remember the same thing happening on my Windows 10 Edu install when I setup GPO's to disable start menu internet search, telemetry, tracking, Cortana, etc.
      • judge2020 5y ago
        This is after a couple reinstalls, so if it is then maybe there’s some sync going on since I use a MS account to sign in.
• Borgz 5y ago
  This thread is a very good example of the bystander effect. There are currently 419 comments on this Hacker News thread, yet only 16 comments on regulations.gov. It is possible to make anonymous comments on regulations.gov, which I think leaves no good reasons not to post your comments there if you want them to be heard.
• 29athrowaway 5y ago
  Every UI pattern used by Plaid, period.
• colordrops 5y ago
  Instagram drives me nuts when you tap the search icon, then the text input, then it immediately hides your keyboard so you have to tap the text input again. Presumably what it's doing is trying to get you to select their recommended content instead of searching for whatever you are looking for.
• bentona 5y ago
  This might be a bit contentious, but there's no top-level comment starting the discussion about regulation of UX patterns. My concerns are mostly those that could apply to related regulation (cookies, internet traffic, etc.), but I'm wondering about other perspectives
• loldk 5y ago
  eHarmony.com changes it's prices based on your income. The more you make and more religious you sound, the cheaper it is. They also use bait and switch by displaying per-month pricing, but then in fine print charge users the full term all at once.
• loldk 5y ago
  Fake discounts. Fake sales everywhere. DoorDash and all food delivery apps jack up prices and pretend you're not paying extra for delivery.
• avmich 5y ago
  > how they affect consumer behavior, including potential harms I'd consider a dark pattern links to terms of use, privacy policies etc. which are not on the same page, which are easy enough to not read before agreeing and which are written in a way which could be misunderstood. If something is important, it should be presented in a way which would leave little to the chance of not getting the information - it should be unimportant to be able to avoid it. On the other hand, the paper version of that is widely used as well, so I don't hold my breath.
• punnerud 5y ago
  Illustrative examples from The Norwegian Consumer Council (Forbrukerrådet) is found in this two reports: Deceived by design (2018) - https://fil.forbrukerradet.no/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/2018-06-27-deceived-by-design-final.pdf https://fil.forbrukerradet.no/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/201... Every step you take (2018) - https://fil.forbrukerradet.no/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/27-11-18-every-step-you-take.pdf https://fil.forbrukerradet.no/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/27-... Most of the focus is on Facebook, Microsoft and Google.
• mrwww 5y ago
  Cookies being more difficult to reject than to accept. Sure that's an EU thing but still
• dr_dshiv 5y ago
  GDPR popups are dangerous because they train millions of people to mindlessly click "accept". They then become part of a dark pattern complex.
• a_imho 5y ago
  How to discourage employing dark patterns?
• rolandog 5y ago
  I confess that I don't really understand what is going on with the script running constantly behind the scenes in the PlantUML login page [0]. It seems to be constantly sending GET requests to a tracking pixel with data passed through a query in the URL; it seems to be either tracking or profiling (maybe even mining?). After some googling, this may be part of Ezoic [1], a forward proxy tracker. Since it is a locally-hosted script, it would be hard to block by domain name alone. Would this classify as a Dark Pattern? [0]: https://plantuml.com/login/ https://plantuml.com/login/ [1]: https://datacadamia.com/marketing/analytics/ezoic https://datacadamia.com/marketing/analytics/ezoic
• cascom 5y ago
  How about the oldie but goodie of cable companies/utilities/etc. turning off auto pay for your last bill, in the hopes you miss it in a move and get to ding you with late fees.
• teekert 5y ago
  From another HN submission: [0] Wow, talk about a dark pattern: [1], all checks but the necessary ones are checked by default, which looks good, but then the big green button will check and accept them anyway! So the primary option negates the standard settings! I almost fell for it but I'm getting better and better at catching myself. It's the new online advertisement. I remember my grandma being completely flustered by all the "you're the 10.000th visitor" flashy stuff and my brain ignored it completely. In this vain my brain now hunts for that button that does not really look like a button but just enough to identify it as a button. That is the one to hit. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27018522 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27018522 [1] https://danskebank.com/news-and-insights/news-archive/press-releases/2021/pr26042021 https://danskebank.com/news-and-insights/news-archive/press-...
• zkid18 5y ago
  Need some Dark Patterns 101. Do we count neuromarketing activities like "5 people watching this product right now" (aka Scarcity Effect) or "this discount ends in 2 hours" and etc. (aka Loss Aversion) as a dark pattern? Or it still praised as a "growth hacking"
• novaleaf 5y ago
  Here is my "feedback" I just posted..... Circumventing Legal Regulation by proxy: It is now illegal for an ISP to charge a modem rental fee if you are not using their modem. My Internet provider (Comcast) circumvents this by tying a bundled subscription (security monitoring) to the rented modem. If I use their rented modem I get the "Internet+security monitoring" bundled plan at a "discount rate" of aprox $80/mth (plus $15/mth for modem rental). If I do not use their rented modem, I do not qualify for the discounted bundled plan. A plain "Internet only" plan is $180/mth.
• sizzle 5y ago
  Fake sense of urgency on sites, e.g. “10 people are looking at this booking” Really scummy way to manipulate people via psychology of being left out (FOMO).
• ak-47 5y ago
  Injected "Get Outlook for iOS" email signature YouTube's "for you" section easily misinterpreted as search results Fake multiplayer games, e.g. paper.io Delayed communication of requirements: e.g. SSN at the end of an unbearable multi-page mobile sign-up form Netflix gating the pause button on "Watch Credits" after an episode
• duckfang 5y ago
  I put in one for their own use of recaptcha. Unfairly punishes people who want to stay anonymous, and people who are disabled... All the while enriches a private companies AI.