66 ms·

Elevator Sabbath service mode (SHO)

eddyg 5y ago
See also the Eruv wire that encircles Manhattan: > This thread conceptually turns public space into private domain, and allows observers of the Sabbath to carry their essential belongings with them. https://99percentinvisible.org/article/inside-lines-eruv-wires-symbolically-extend-homes-encompass-cities/ https://99percentinvisible.org/article/inside-lines-eruv-wir...
- pmiller2 5y ago
  Holy shit. I knew about eruvin, but I didn't know there was one all the way around Manhattan! How would anybody know if a distant part of the line was down? That would put them in violation, wouldn't it?
  - josh_fyi 5y ago
    It is inspected weekly before the Sabbath and fixed, or if it can't be, an announcement is made.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - _hijk 5y ago
    Someone checks the eruv every week before Shabbat[1] and they have a weekly announcement if it is operational [2]. [1] https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-encircles-manhattan-protecting-sanctity-of-sabbath https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-enci... [2] https://twitter.com/ManhattanEruv/status/1388202630048993281 https://twitter.com/ManhattanEruv/status/1388202630048993281
    - david-gpu 5y ago
      Why not make it conductive and test if any section is down by seeing that the circuit is broken?
      - Kipters 5y ago
        Wouldn't that mean operating an electric device?
        reissbaker 5y ago
        You could check the connection before the Sabbath, similar to how you check the eruv integrity before the Sabbath. So it'd be fine. It's an interesting idea!
        TchoBeer 5y ago
        This is a fascinating idea and not something I've ever heard brought up. Do you think the authorities would allow a length of wire with a current passing through it to be erected in their city?
        david-gpu 5y ago
        Aren't there millions of cables throughout Manhattan already, whether to carry power, telephone signals, etc.? The wire could be insulated and low-voltage, you know.
        Kipters 5y ago
        If I recall my electronics/telecommunications classes correctly, you would only need very little current. You could also send short pulses and wait for the "echo" back to have a rough estimate of where the cable is broken. The biggest issue I see is about the cable length: you would need to use high voltages to make up for the losses and fault location would become way more difficult. Another option would be break up the cable in smaller sections and monitor each of these independently, but I don't know if that's a valid option for this use case since the entire point of the eruv is that it must be continuous (maybe the sections could be tied together using non-conductive materials?)
  - steviedotboston 5y ago
    I created a service to people can find out if their eruv is up/down http://eruvstat.us http://eruvstat.us
  - tdeck 5y ago
    There are also two in San Francisco. I lived inside one for six years and never knew it.
  - thamer 5y ago
    The video linked in the parent post explains that the Manhattan eruv has never been down. A rabbi goes all around on Thursday and repairs are made on Friday if needed. Even when the Thanksgiving parade knocked down some wires or after hurricane Sandy, they managed to get it repaired in time for Shabbat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccfDo7yTHr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccfDo7yTHr8
- andrepd 5y ago
  It's absolutely bonkers what some people believe in x)
  - TchoBeer 5y ago
    Anything will sound dumb if you dumb it down enough. In actuality A) the eruv only works on a specific case. A public domain needs to have a very wide street with 600,000 people who pass through it every day, which places with an eruv don't have. Technically as per biblical law you can carry even without an eruv, it's only as per rabbinic prohibition that you're not allowed to carry unless you have an eruv. In addition B) the eruv used in most modern communities is the weakest possible form of eruv and not everyone holds by it. My rabbi would only carry in a walled community. Here a great english language article explaining the laws is the following: https://www.halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Introduction_to_the_Modern_Eruv https://www.halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Introduction_to...
    - andrepd 5y ago
      Well all these convoluted rules and workarounds are “dumb” from an objective point of view, in that there is no objective reason for their existence. Then again people are free to live by whatever self-imposed rules they desire, as silly as it looks to someone else.
    - boublepop 5y ago
      Some people are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars every year on maintaining a fishing line around Manhatten. This isn’t “dumbing it down”, it’s just literally the facts of what is going on. Explaining that there are tons more you could dig into about these peoples beliefs around the holy powers of this fishing line and exactly when they do and do not work doesn’t escape the fact that it is dumb. If someone is wearing a tinfoil hat, his lengthy explanations about the capabilities of American and Russian intelligence agencies capabilities doesn’t make it sound less dumb.
      - viciousvoxel 5y ago
        While I agree with you that it does seem particularly wasteful and silly, I think you would benefit from some introspection into your own "dumb" culturally-motivated behaviors, or those of "normal" secular society. As just one instance, aren't engagement and weddings rings expensive and dumb by your measure?
29athrowaway 5y ago
How does sabbath work in space? If you are not on Earth, but it is Saturday on Earth, is it sabbath?
- bradrn 5y ago
  Not sure about the exact rule, but I believe Jewish astronauts use the time zone of the place they launched from.
  - 29athrowaway 5y ago
    What if they settle on Mars?
    - TchoBeer 5y ago
      This is very much an open question in halacha. I'd assume they'd use Mars time for sunrise/sunset, but how the calendar would work I have no idea. Halacha is very earth-centric and I don't know what it would look like in space.
- TchoBeer 5y ago
  This is a great question, not just in space but also very far up north where it doesn't always have a sunrise and sunset. I don't remember exactly what the answer was, but I do remember reading something good about it. Maybe I'll go look for it.
  - nostrebored 5y ago
    Beyond shabbat, there are other interesting ramifications for making when to make brachot, time based positive commitments, etc.
- pR1vaCy_1000 5y ago
  https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/632169/jewish/Shabbat-in-Space.htm https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/632169/jewish...
itisit 5y ago
I love the contrivance of this need. Somewhere between indolence and observance. Or between humor and insanity. Interesting nonetheless…
- pmiller2 5y ago
  If you like that, you'll love this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv
  - fotbr 5y ago
    To which I ask: Why not place a small loop of (wire, cord, thread, whatever qualifies) on the ground in a park somewhere. Then define "outside" and "inside" the other way 'round from "normal", thus making very-nearly the entirety of the earth "inside", and the very small portion "outside". It seems logical to me, and I've never heard a reason it can't be done other than "that's defeating the point." Which I admit, it entirely is, but I don't see it as any more "wrong" than encircling entire cities, and it's a whole lot simpler to maintain.
    - benchaney 5y ago
      There are limits to how big they can be, and they can't contain large bodies of water. It does also defeat the point. That may not be a compelling argument if you don't know what the point is, but there is one.
      - bscphil 5y ago
        > It does also defeat the point. That may not be a compelling argument if you don't know what the point is, but there is one. In fairness, the article itself as well as the Eruv article on Wikipedia linked here both make it seem that the whole point is to enact a kind of escape hatch to a rule that was found to be too strict to be workable in practice. For example, Wikipedia: > What constitutes a "public area" is debated. The strict opinion holds that any road more than 16 cubits wide is a public domain, while the lenient opinion holds that a public domain must have both 16 cubits of width and 600,000 people passing through the road on a single day. In practice, communities that build eruvin accept the lenient opinion. In other words, it's only with the most lenient interpretation of the laws that this kind of escape hatch is even possible somewhere like Manhattan, and possibly not even there. A typical American feeling is that rules are either important and should be upheld, or unimportant (or bad) and should be gotten rid of. The perspective behind eruvin seems (edit: based on the Wikipedia article, see replies) to hold that rules are important only in their most direct and legalistic version, and even then only to the extent that you can't weasel your way out of them. If that's the case, it's hard to say what's in principle wrong with the idea of a tiny eruv that the whole world is "inside", other than tradition.
egypturnash 5y ago
I wonder if a paternoster elevator qualifies for Sabbath, and how its energy usage compares to putting a standard car into Sabbath Mode. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternoster_lift https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternoster_lift
- chx 5y ago
  Have you used one? I have. There's a reason they are gone: these are terrifying to use. The title, the comments in https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/391bxv/paternoster_lifts_dangerous_obsolete_and_quite/ https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/391bxv/paternoster_... for example all mention this.
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
    I have, and I find them convenient and awesome, not terrifying. Next time you use them, take a closer look at the safety features. The obvious pinch points tend to be secured with sensors that trigger an emergency stop and breakaway panels. See for example this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJBD1wf-YQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJBD1wf-YQ In the very beginning, about one second in, you can see the static part of the floor going towards the cabin is a moveable board. Likewise, the "do not stand forward of this line" part of the cabin visible later is a flap that prevents the bottom of the cabin from squishing someone while going down. The main risks are falling (note the gap between e.g. the entry floor board and the top of the cabin, or the floor of the cabin and the shaft wall), injuries from failed attempts to transport bulky items, and if you go through the top/bottom, there are gears that you can stick your hand into. But as long as you're not intentionally doing something stupid, there really is no reason to be terrified of them. Now, a manlift https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_manlift https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_manlift or man engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_engine... that's terrifying.
  - JimDabell 5y ago
    I’ve used one and wasn’t even remotely worried; calling it “terrifying” is a little extreme.
userbinator 5y ago
This allows passengers to step on and off without having to press any buttons. This prevents violation of the Sabbath prohibition against operating electrical devices when Sabbath is in effect for those who observe this ritual. That is also true of a Paternoster: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternoster_lift https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternoster_lift
- tdeck 5y ago
  A paternoster would actually be far better in this application, but I don't think any have been built in a long time.
stryan 5y ago
I went to college at a place with a pretty big Jewish population and happened to live in the apartments closest to the campus Jewish center. It was always interesting to see how the Jewish students had special keys to enter the building on Shabbat or a way to automatically set the elevator to Shabbat mode. I thought it was a nice way to respect the religion while also not inconveniencing the other tenants (though I lived on the first floor anyway).
- 83457 5y ago
  They used a key on the Sabbath to change the operation of the elevator so they would not have to press buttons on the elevator? Sounds like more work so less observant, but I guess with most religions it is the thought that counts.
  - chabad360 5y ago
    It's likely the elevator would be set by default to sabbath mode, unless someone specifically pressed the button to go to a specific floor. Action is (arguably) more important than thought in Judaism.
    - 83457 5y ago
      With that in mind, why are they using the elevator at all? The fact that there is a difference between using and operating is very convenient.
  - evanb 5y ago
    Not GP but I think the keys were to enter the dorm building without scanning an electronic FOB or ID card, not for the elevator.
  - TchoBeer 5y ago
    You misunderstand. The key is to get into the room (as opposed to the presumably electronic locks which are usually used) and the elevator is set beforehand.
_Microft 5y ago
What’s the meaning of „the Sabbath prohibition against operating electrical devices“? Not executing a physical action? Any action? Intent? An elevator that cycles between floors and one that only moves to a floor to pick up a passenger when they wait in front of the door might be indistinguishable from the perspective of the user. Would the difference matter? What about showing the intent to exit the elevator at a particular floor by e.g. taking a step towards the door of the cabin and having the elevator detect that? Telling a liftboy where to go seems to be ok. Now let us assume that it is quite a shy liftboy, so we grant his wish to have a privacy shield to hide behind while taking the passenger’s wish. Would it matter if we replaced him with a voice assistant if the passenger had no way of telling that?
- rachet 5y ago
  > What’s the meaning of „the Sabbath prohibition against operating electrical devices“? The point is about the act of creation. Creation is the key point in just about all the laws. Turning on/off a switch, with intent, is an act of creation. Be it light, a spark, heat, or moving an elevator. Intent increases the severity of an action surely. Bumping into a light and turning it off, as long as it lacks intention, is more of an "oops, my bad" but you can't accidentally bump into it again. And if it's a common occurrence, you probably should address that issue since you know it will happen (you can't set someone up to fail). > ... might be indistinguishable from the perspective of the user... And yes, perspective matters, which is one of the reasons many observant avoid it. If you see someone in front of an elevator (or TV, for that matter), an outside observer would assume you're pressing buttons and breaking the law. Since others may not know about your clever work-around, it's better to avoid it, so they don't see you getting the benefits of the work-around and then doing it directly themselves. This avoids others saying "I saw an observant guy get in the elevator and part of an elevator is pressing buttons, so pressing buttons must be OK". The door sensors of elevators are another problem. On many with a shabbat mode, they only activate right before closing the door, but it is easy to make a mistake and the doors will re-open. This is another reason they are avoided by many if possible. > telling a liftboy where to go seems to be ok... Telling a liftboy is not okay. You can't order someone to do something that they wouldn't have done on their own that you aren't permitted to do yourself. If you're forbidden from turning on a light, asking someone to do it turns them into your agent, which is the same as doing it yourself. But there, like many things, is a work around. If you handed someone a book for them to read, and it was dark, you know they will want to turn on the light. But since you're not asking them to turn on the light, you're asking them to read a book -- if they turn on the light, you have no agency in that action. In the case of a lift boy or attendant, if you walked into the elevator and said something like "I live on the 7th floor" it's debatable if you intend for the person to press the button. If their job is to press the button, then it is an issue, if it is a non-employee, it's probably less of an issue. Even here, there are nuances like intent and context. If you're younger or more healthy, it's probably better to take the stairs. If you're in a high-rise and even healthy people would have issues taking the stairs, it's probably more permissible. Then, even in a high-rise, if you're going down (which is easier) then maybe the context would be different enough were the same circumstances that permitted you to use it going up aren't available for going down! As mentioned by others, the circumstances and context really matter along with the perspective of yourself and those around you. That is why there have been countless books and discussions on some seemingly simple matters.
OldHand2018 5y ago
My oven has a Sabbath mode - you set the temperature and cook time, and randomly within some time period it will turn itself on and cook, then shut off. It’s just a middle-of-the-road GE. I bet most of you actually have this kind of feature and don’t realize it. Here is a description of what this means for appliances: https://www.whirlpool.com/blog/kitchen/what-is-sabbath-mode.html https://www.whirlpool.com/blog/kitchen/what-is-sabbath-mode.... It turns out I didn’t really understand how it worked! What I described is a feature, but I guess not a Sabbath mode feature
- RobertRoberts 5y ago
  What is the difference between hot water, light and cooking when it comes to the Sabbath?
  - rachet 5y ago
    Intent mostly, the rest is whether you are creating or not. If you have a hot water urn, that is always on and doesn't receive new water, then consuming the water isn't usually an issue. You still need to double pour (put it in one cup then in a second to ensure it isn't hot enough to cook) but using it is OK. If you have a large hot water tank, consuming the water IS an issue. Mostly because the moment that you consume the water, you can reasonably assume that cold water will enter the tank. Once cold water enters the tank, it will likely start heating. Thus, you become the agent that turns the heaters on in the tank. But, if the hot water was flowing BEFORE shabbat and you consume the hot water, your action does not directly affect the actions taken by the heating components. The heater is already on and using an extra amount of water has minimal impact on when the heaters turn off. Thus it is more allowed. Light is about creation and less about the light than the means to get it. Switches create sparks internally, lights create heat (even LEDs), and you are completing a circuit. Completion can be seen as the final act of creation. And lastly, cooking takes something from in-edible to edible. Creating food from non-food. Even on foods that are permissible to warm, they must be edible before hand. They also cannot substantially change form -- nothing too liquid or anything that would go from solid to liquid. With that framework, warming up a piece of left over baked chicken would be OK, whereas making a grilled-cheese sandwich wouldn't be OK.
nanis 5y ago
I don't think one can talk about Shabbas and elevators without mentioning Feynman's take[1]. [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/ev3gy/excerpt_from_richard_feynman_is_electricity_fire/ https://old.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/ev3gy/excerpt_from... PS: I am linking to where I easily found a good quotation with enough context. It is not an argument for atheism.
- TchoBeer 5y ago
  Lol the Jewish Theological Seminary is definitely not Orthodox. I'm surprised they even know enough halacha to know how to explain it; maybe it's gotten less orthodox over time.
  - jsmith99 5y ago
    Which is why they did not know the actual answer to his question! The answer is that God is universal but the commandment to rest on shabbos was addressed only to Jews. https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/13447/is-it-a-discouraged-or-an-unacceptable-practice-for-a-gentile-to-keep-the-sabbat https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/13447/is-it-a-di...
    - TchoBeer 5y ago
      It's funny how that's not even close to a difficult question. Feynman is so impressed with their logic when a teenager could answer that question in one sentence.
- vxNsr 5y ago
  > While I was at the conference, I stayed at the Jewish Theological Seminary, where young rabbis--I think they were Orthodox--were studying. Since I have a Jewish background, I knew of some of the things they told me about the Talmud, but I had never seen the Talmud. It was very interesting. It's got big pages, and in a little square in the corner of the page is the original Talmud, and then in a sort of L-shaped margin, all around this square, are commentaries written by different people. The Talmud has evolved, and everything has been discussed again and again, all very carefully, in a medieval kind of reasoning. I think the commentaries were shut down around the thirteen- or fourteen- or fifteen-hundreds--there hasn't been any modern commentary. This is mostly wrong as other have pointed out. JTS is not by any estimation orthodox. At most it would be considered Jewish-conservative. I’m surprised to learn they are concerned with not pushing elevator buttons, if that was true then it’s certainly not true today. Additionally, the Talmud absolutely has commentaries from the modern era, you can find commentaries from even the 1950s. Though it does take a few years for those to make it into the book. Maybe not directly in the margin but likely sub-noted to the back of the book. I also find it hilarious that he calls it medieval logic and then admits they out foxed him at every turn in any logical debate he tried. Not to mention I could likely take down the arguments he proposes without much trouble and I’m no rabbi.
crowf 5y ago
> In hospitals, elevators with Sabbath mode would be considered dangerous because they are to be relied on for fast service for transporting patients in dire need of care or surgery. That's wrong for 2 reasons. First of all, most/all major hospitals in Israel have a shabbat mode. The solutions are either to have many elevators, with only some of them stoping at every floor, and/or have a manual override. If someone presses a button it goes directly there, otherwise it goes floor by floor.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
  > If someone presses a button it goes directly there, otherwise it goes floor by floor. This is also a good compromise to let people follow their religious practices without imposing the impact from them on everyone else.
  - pmiller2 5y ago
    Pushing the button in this case is still in accordance with Judaism. There is a commandment to preserve life that takes precedence over everything else.
    - aaronbrethorst 5y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh
brianwawok 5y ago
Kosherswitch for a light switch is a fun read, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KosherSwitch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KosherSwitch Was an Indiegogo and all.
fortran77 5y ago
Please don't speculate on what's allowed and what's not. See an authoritative source like https://www.zomet.org.il/eng/ https://www.zomet.org.il/eng/ And also, many Jews don't hold that Shabbat Elevators are kosher. There's debate within the community. I take the stairs.
- bardorna 5y ago
  > see an authoritative source > There's debate within the community
  - jkap 5y ago
    as a jew, this is simply the nature of judaism
    - vxNsr 5y ago
      Ya, an equally good response is “Welcome to Judaism” Though the sibling comment is more accurate.
  - TchoBeer 5y ago
    It's a bit like if someone says something about how "quantum mechanics means that your consciousness can alter reality" and you said "that's not what it means" and they said "okay then what is the correct interpretation of quantum mechanics" and you said "it's complicated and there are different opinions" like just because there's debate doesn't mean all opinions are equally authoritative.
  - yhersk0vitz 5y ago
    Very common in Judaism. As we like to say, "two jews, three opinions."
    - jaza 5y ago
      I thought it was "10 Jews, 11 opinions"? See, we can't even agree on the wording of the expression that describes how much we disagree about things! :P
_hijk 5y ago
I am an orthodox Jew who lives in an apartment building with a Sabbath elevator. I usually takes the stairs on the Sabbath, but use the elevator occasionally. While in it, I always contemplate other possible strategies the elevator could use to speed up the runtime. All Sabbath elevators I've seen follow the route `1,2,3,...,N,1,2,...` which can take up to `2N - 1` steps (open/close cycles) in the worst case (you just miss the elevator on the ground floor and are going up to `N`). What if they went `1,2,4,6,...,N,1,3,5,7,...,N`? Worst case is still `2N -1` but if you relax the goal to only care about getting within one floor of your target (go one away from your floor and take the stairs for the last flight) worst case drops to `N`. (Each step would take a little longer due to having to travel 2 flights, but most of the time is spent waiting for the doors anyways.) Has anyone seen a Sabbath elevator that doesn't follow the standard route?
- riskneutral 5y ago
  Can you not just use an NFC tag to choose your floor, or call the elevator? No button pressing required, just stand near the door with your keys in your pocket.
  - gnicholas 5y ago
    This is an interesting question. It involves carrying a tracker and using it to trigger a sensor. I don't know much about how these rules are interpreted, but that seems like it could run afoul of them. A closer case would be if there were an elevator that had a camera that recognized every person who approached it who lived in the building, and which took them to the floor they live on.
    - hawaiianbrah 5y ago
      That _is_ an interesting question. If there is an eruv, carrying is fine. Motion sensors are _not_ kosher as I understand it, so I think this idea wouldn’t fly either.
      - whatshisface 5y ago
tguvot 5y ago
In Israel most of elevators (at least modern one) have Sabbath mode. It has interesting implications upon relations between neighbors within building. As long as "composition" of building is homogeneous, i.e. either totally religious or secular, Sabbath mode will be either on or off. But it becomes tricky when into secular building move one or more religious families that request to turn Sabbath mode on. In best case scenario there are two elevators (required for buildings with more than 5 floors), so one of them will get switched to Sabbath mode (though bunch of people will be unhappy as electricity usage of building will go up + some inconvenience). If there is only one elevator, Greek drama might be a correct way to describe what happens. edit: from the other side misery of lonely secular family in religious building where all elevators are in sabbath mode is real...
- joshschreuder 5y ago
  Without knowing anything of the religious rules at play here, could you have an elevator that incorporates both? Eg. default is to travel in Sabbath mode but non-religious residents could still use the buttons to override it to a specific floor if they desire? Obviously you still have the increased electrical consumption but you remove the inconvenience of stopping every floor for those who aren’t required to.
  - tguvot 5y ago
    Probably it will make elevator non-kosher...
    - TchoBeer 5y ago
      Probably not. It's not the elevator that's nonkosher, it's pressing the buttons.
      - tguvot 5y ago
        De Jure - yes. You are right. In reality (in Israel, in this case), many people come up with their own versions/interpretation/complications of Jewish law. As anecdote, I knew one semi-religious family (masorati but coming from very famous ultra-orthodox lineage). They won't cook on Sabbath; they won't join friends to BBQ - because Sabbath and you can't make fire but they will operate all the other appliances and will drive around in car.
js2 5y ago
Judaism has a lot of rules: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments But the sanctity of life trumps virtually all of them, so you can almost always violate a commandment to save a life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh
- jedberg 5y ago
  As teenage boys in Hebrew school, we always tried to figure out ways in which violating the commandment against adultery could save a life.
  - tovmeod 5y ago
    If I remember correctly there are 3 things you can't do to save a life: illicit relations, take a life and idolatry. Meaning even that if you do find yourself in a situation where cheating on your wife would actually save a life then it will still be forbidden
    - TchoBeer 5y ago
      Yeah, there's actually an explicit example in the talmud. https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.75a.2?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.75a.2?lang=bi&with=all&lan... definitely prohibited EDIT: actually this gemara is an example of saving ones own life, so maybe not
  - herendin2 5y ago
    Then, to suggest an extreme and unpleasant scenario (sorry), a Jewish man who seduced Hitler's mother on a Saturday in early 1888 (the year before Adolf's birth) might be exempted from these Sabbath rules, perhaps?
  - JimDabell 5y ago
    You should watch the first episode of Black Mirror. Depending upon your exact interpretation of the rules, this may contain an example.
jedberg 5y ago
Jews are the original hackers. Our religion has a lot of rules (like a whole lot) and as technology has progressed, the rules have not, so we've had to come up with a lot of workarounds, and also been enabled by technology. This is one great example. Also a lot of ovens have sabbath mode. So do TVs (although those are just timers for on and off now). The Eruv wire is another Jewish hack. Alexa has opened up a whole new avenue of hacks. Previously you had to get light switches with random timers if you wanted electric light on Saturday, but now you can make an Alexa routine that is triggered by certain words or motions so that it technically doesn't count as "activating" the switch. Jews have basically been hacking for 5000 years. :)
- surround 5y ago
  See also: Amish hackers https://kk.org/thetechnium/amish-hackers-a/ https://kk.org/thetechnium/amish-hackers-a/
- marton78 5y ago
  It is something I never understood: why the practice of finding creative ways of getting around laws of the very religion you claim to adhere to is generally accepted in Judaism. While undoubtedly charming, by paying someone to speak the Kaddish for one year instead of yourself, or paying a Shabbes Goy to push buttons on your behalf just outsources your religious duties. Having the elevator stop at every floor even the opposite effect achieved than the spirit of the law intends: more energy is consumed on Shabbes than on other days. Why not be honest to yourself and admit that you actually don't care so much about the Laws?
  - smsm42 5y ago
    It's not about consumption of energy. Shabbat in Judaism is not an energy saving measure, it's a religious ceremony. Judaism is big on doing things differently for a reason (one could probably write a PhD thesis on it) and Shabbat is one of those where the different thing is avoiding making changes in the world. Of course, as with many major religions, everybody finds their own meanings within the framework.
throwmeaway1p 5y ago
As a child in Israel, I was fascinated with these rules. That said, I’m saddened to see how so many people are excited by these laws, when people who are forced to live by them in Israel suffer, as there’s only one kind of “true” Judaism followed here. They can and often are used for discrimination, hate towards minorities and significant limits of freedom about what you can do, who to marry, what to eat and more. For example, someone here used “goyim” in its pure sense - someone not from the people of Israel. I’ve often seen it used as a hate word.
- tovmeod 5y ago
  > who are forced to live by them in Israel Not true, no one is forced, Israel is not a dictatorship
- gentlest_hum 5y ago
  No one is forced to do any of this, if you were Jewish you'd know that. Goyim is also not a slur and refers in many instances ALSO to Jews, since it just means "nation." Quit fibbin.
  - TchoBeer 5y ago
    >Goyim is also not a slur and refers in many instances ALSO to Jews, since it just means "nation." I don't know if you live in a jewish community, but people _definitely_ use the word "goy" in a derogatory manner. Lots of slurs also mean innocuous things; "coon" is an example, which can refer both to raccoons and also is a slur for black people.
- w0de0 5y ago
  What saddens me is the intellectual waste the study and interpretation of these laws creates. There’s an entire generation with a normal distribution of potential and intelligence, and above average in work ethic - and they are arguing obscure religious laws in a yeshiva for their whole life. What a waste.
shimfish 5y ago
If we're being nerdy about this then there are other considerations to worry about apart from just not pressing buttons. For example, if the elevator is going down the passenger weight could increase the speed of descent marginally. This would mean the light indicating the floor number would change quicker than it would have done without the passenger being there. Therefore some authorities will only permit the Sabbath Elevator if it shuts off all indicator lights also.
- tovmeod 5y ago
  I once heard that because of this one should make an hydraulic elevator, so the passenger weight would not affect the energy used, not sure if this holds true or if it is even practical
  - jdiez17 5y ago
    I don’t think that’s true. Hydraulics are just a way of transferring/multiplying force, like gears or belts (but much more powerful). The amount of weight to be moved will certainly modulate the energy consumption of the motor.
dwheeler 5y ago
There is a non-Jewish use for this. I remember developing code for a simulated elevator system, and Sabbath mode is an excellent backup mode if you detect that the elevator floor buttons are not working. While it's nowhere near as efficient as properly working mechanisms, it provides reduced functionality instead of being useless. I think many systems should be designed with reduced functionality modes, and have them automatically enabled when practical. It's often better to have a partially working system than a total failure.
- b15h0p 5y ago
  Pinball machines are an excellent example of this. They consist of numerous electro-mechanical components that are prone to failures due to repeatedly being hit by a heavy steel ball at high speed. If one of the component breaks, it might take a while for a service technician to get out to some remote bar. To make sure that the machine can continue to collect coins, it modifies its rule-set avoiding broken components. It will also display a little dot in one of the corners of the display to signal that it is in need of repair.
illustriousbear 5y ago
What a waste of electricity for a stupid religion.
- TruthWillHurt 5y ago
  As a non-observant jewish person that used to live in Israel - I agree. It's a total nightmare.
_hijk 5y ago
I wanted to post an alternative approach to 'rules lawyering' in Judaism in contrast to the 'loophole' approach taken by some comments in the thread: God does not have a vendetta against elevators. God decreed specific sets of rules that make actions on the Sabbath forbidden, as interpreted by rabbis over the generations. When new situations arise the rules are applied to the new situation to see whether it is permitted or forbidden. Sometimes, like with elevators, the consensus is that the new situation is forbidden. In such a case, if there is good reason, the question becomes: "is there a way that we can tweak the situation so that it doesn't fall into the forbidden category?". For elevators, the answer is yes. This still follows the spirit and letter of the law, because the spirit of the law really only applied to the reasons that made the elevator problematic in the first place and not to the whole concept of elevators.
- shawnz 5y ago
  What is the "spirit" of the law that's being violated when you press an elevator button, that isn't violated by general usage of the elevator at all?
  - _hijk 5y ago
    The answer to that question is quite tricky because the spirit of the law gets much less discussion in the literature compared to the letter. A simple explanation is that God restricted Jews from 'work' that affects the world in certain ways on Shabbat in order that they should rest. For example, no building, or lighting fires. However, they can benefit from pre-existing fires or buildings. Pressing the elevator button is akin to one of these forbidden effects (which one depends on a broad discussion about electricity on Shabbat), going against the injunction to rest. Walking in to the elevator and it moving automatically is more similar to benefitting from an existing fire. While it may seem strange that pressing the elevator button is considered 'work', the answer to that is that the definition of work is directly related to the laws and not necessarily some external metric like effort. This means that the spirit and letter end up very closely related, but I think the distinction still exists.
js2 5y ago
See also: kosher-for-Passover Coca Cola https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/23/us/23religion.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/23/us/23religion.html
coward76 5y ago
Maybe facial detection post covid masking would allow the elevators to smartly drop off passengers but this whole concept of having automatic processes violates the rule of making "strangers within your gates from working".
mikesabbagh 5y ago
As I was walking on the street, I was asked by a jewish man to turn on his oven on a Saturday! That was one of the weirdest experience ever! first, this man did not want to sin, so he asked me to do this for him. He did not care if i sinned i guess!! Second, if there is a God, I hope he is not so silly to care if I pushed a button on a Saturday or not?
- TchoBeer 5y ago
  I don't know the specifics of his situations, but in general asking a gentile to do work for you is also prohibited. but also >He did not care if i sinned i guess!! doing work is only a sin for jews, not gentiles.

See also the Eruv wire that encircles Manhattan: > This thread conceptually turns public space into private domain, and allows observers of the Sabbath to carry their essential belongings with them. https://99percentinvisible.org/article/inside-lines-eruv-wires-symbolically-extend-homes-encompass-cities/ https://99percentinvisible.org/article/inside-lines-eruv-wir...

pmiller2 5y ago
Holy shit. I knew about eruvin, but I didn't know there was one all the way around Manhattan! How would anybody know if a distant part of the line was down? That would put them in violation, wouldn't it?
- josh_fyi 5y ago
  It is inspected weekly before the Sabbath and fixed, or if it can't be, an announcement is made.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- _hijk 5y ago
  Someone checks the eruv every week before Shabbat[1] and they have a weekly announcement if it is operational [2]. [1] https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-encircles-manhattan-protecting-sanctity-of-sabbath https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-enci... [2] https://twitter.com/ManhattanEruv/status/1388202630048993281 https://twitter.com/ManhattanEruv/status/1388202630048993281
  - david-gpu 5y ago
    Why not make it conductive and test if any section is down by seeing that the circuit is broken?
    - Kipters 5y ago
      Wouldn't that mean operating an electric device?
      - reissbaker 5y ago
        You could check the connection before the Sabbath, similar to how you check the eruv integrity before the Sabbath. So it'd be fine. It's an interesting idea!
        TchoBeer 5y ago
        This is a fascinating idea and not something I've ever heard brought up. Do you think the authorities would allow a length of wire with a current passing through it to be erected in their city?
        david-gpu 5y ago
        Aren't there millions of cables throughout Manhattan already, whether to carry power, telephone signals, etc.? The wire could be insulated and low-voltage, you know.
        Kipters 5y ago
        If I recall my electronics/telecommunications classes correctly, you would only need very little current. You could also send short pulses and wait for the "echo" back to have a rough estimate of where the cable is broken. The biggest issue I see is about the cable length: you would need to use high voltages to make up for the losses and fault location would become way more difficult. Another option would be break up the cable in smaller sections and monitor each of these independently, but I don't know if that's a valid option for this use case since the entire point of the eruv is that it must be continuous (maybe the sections could be tied together using non-conductive materials?)
- steviedotboston 5y ago
  I created a service to people can find out if their eruv is up/down http://eruvstat.us http://eruvstat.us
- tdeck 5y ago
  There are also two in San Francisco. I lived inside one for six years and never knew it.
- thamer 5y ago
  The video linked in the parent post explains that the Manhattan eruv has never been down. A rabbi goes all around on Thursday and repairs are made on Friday if needed. Even when the Thanksgiving parade knocked down some wires or after hurricane Sandy, they managed to get it repaired in time for Shabbat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccfDo7yTHr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccfDo7yTHr8
andrepd 5y ago
It's absolutely bonkers what some people believe in x)
- TchoBeer 5y ago
  Anything will sound dumb if you dumb it down enough. In actuality A) the eruv only works on a specific case. A public domain needs to have a very wide street with 600,000 people who pass through it every day, which places with an eruv don't have. Technically as per biblical law you can carry even without an eruv, it's only as per rabbinic prohibition that you're not allowed to carry unless you have an eruv. In addition B) the eruv used in most modern communities is the weakest possible form of eruv and not everyone holds by it. My rabbi would only carry in a walled community. Here a great english language article explaining the laws is the following: https://www.halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Introduction_to_the_Modern_Eruv https://www.halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Introduction_to...
  - andrepd 5y ago
    Well all these convoluted rules and workarounds are “dumb” from an objective point of view, in that there is no objective reason for their existence. Then again people are free to live by whatever self-imposed rules they desire, as silly as it looks to someone else.
  - boublepop 5y ago
    Some people are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars every year on maintaining a fishing line around Manhatten. This isn’t “dumbing it down”, it’s just literally the facts of what is going on. Explaining that there are tons more you could dig into about these peoples beliefs around the holy powers of this fishing line and exactly when they do and do not work doesn’t escape the fact that it is dumb. If someone is wearing a tinfoil hat, his lengthy explanations about the capabilities of American and Russian intelligence agencies capabilities doesn’t make it sound less dumb.
    - viciousvoxel 5y ago
      While I agree with you that it does seem particularly wasteful and silly, I think you would benefit from some introspection into your own "dumb" culturally-motivated behaviors, or those of "normal" secular society. As just one instance, aren't engagement and weddings rings expensive and dumb by your measure?

29athrowaway 5y ago

How does sabbath work in space? If you are not on Earth, but it is Saturday on Earth, is it sabbath?

bradrn 5y ago
Not sure about the exact rule, but I believe Jewish astronauts use the time zone of the place they launched from.
- 29athrowaway 5y ago
  What if they settle on Mars?
  - TchoBeer 5y ago
    This is very much an open question in halacha. I'd assume they'd use Mars time for sunrise/sunset, but how the calendar would work I have no idea. Halacha is very earth-centric and I don't know what it would look like in space.
TchoBeer 5y ago
This is a great question, not just in space but also very far up north where it doesn't always have a sunrise and sunset. I don't remember exactly what the answer was, but I do remember reading something good about it. Maybe I'll go look for it.
- nostrebored 5y ago
  Beyond shabbat, there are other interesting ramifications for making when to make brachot, time based positive commitments, etc.
pR1vaCy_1000 5y ago
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/632169/jewish/Shabbat-in-Space.htm https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/632169/jewish...

itisit 5y ago

I love the contrivance of this need. Somewhere between indolence and observance. Or between humor and insanity. Interesting nonetheless…

pmiller2 5y ago
If you like that, you'll love this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv
- fotbr 5y ago
  To which I ask: Why not place a small loop of (wire, cord, thread, whatever qualifies) on the ground in a park somewhere. Then define "outside" and "inside" the other way 'round from "normal", thus making very-nearly the entirety of the earth "inside", and the very small portion "outside". It seems logical to me, and I've never heard a reason it can't be done other than "that's defeating the point." Which I admit, it entirely is, but I don't see it as any more "wrong" than encircling entire cities, and it's a whole lot simpler to maintain.
  - benchaney 5y ago
    There are limits to how big they can be, and they can't contain large bodies of water. It does also defeat the point. That may not be a compelling argument if you don't know what the point is, but there is one.
    - bscphil 5y ago
      > It does also defeat the point. That may not be a compelling argument if you don't know what the point is, but there is one. In fairness, the article itself as well as the Eruv article on Wikipedia linked here both make it seem that the whole point is to enact a kind of escape hatch to a rule that was found to be too strict to be workable in practice. For example, Wikipedia: > What constitutes a "public area" is debated. The strict opinion holds that any road more than 16 cubits wide is a public domain, while the lenient opinion holds that a public domain must have both 16 cubits of width and 600,000 people passing through the road on a single day. In practice, communities that build eruvin accept the lenient opinion. In other words, it's only with the most lenient interpretation of the laws that this kind of escape hatch is even possible somewhere like Manhattan, and possibly not even there. A typical American feeling is that rules are either important and should be upheld, or unimportant (or bad) and should be gotten rid of. The perspective behind eruvin seems (edit: based on the Wikipedia article, see replies) to hold that rules are important only in their most direct and legalistic version, and even then only to the extent that you can't weasel your way out of them. If that's the case, it's hard to say what's in principle wrong with the idea of a tiny eruv that the whole world is "inside", other than tradition.

egypturnash 5y ago

I wonder if a paternoster elevator qualifies for Sabbath, and how its energy usage compares to putting a standard car into Sabbath Mode. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternoster_lift https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternoster_lift

chx 5y ago
Have you used one? I have. There's a reason they are gone: these are terrifying to use. The title, the comments in https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/391bxv/paternoster_lifts_dangerous_obsolete_and_quite/ https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/391bxv/paternoster_... for example all mention this.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
  I have, and I find them convenient and awesome, not terrifying. Next time you use them, take a closer look at the safety features. The obvious pinch points tend to be secured with sensors that trigger an emergency stop and breakaway panels. See for example this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJBD1wf-YQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJBD1wf-YQ In the very beginning, about one second in, you can see the static part of the floor going towards the cabin is a moveable board. Likewise, the "do not stand forward of this line" part of the cabin visible later is a flap that prevents the bottom of the cabin from squishing someone while going down. The main risks are falling (note the gap between e.g. the entry floor board and the top of the cabin, or the floor of the cabin and the shaft wall), injuries from failed attempts to transport bulky items, and if you go through the top/bottom, there are gears that you can stick your hand into. But as long as you're not intentionally doing something stupid, there really is no reason to be terrified of them. Now, a manlift https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_manlift https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_manlift or man engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_engine... that's terrifying.
- JimDabell 5y ago
  I’ve used one and wasn’t even remotely worried; calling it “terrifying” is a little extreme.

userbinator 5y ago

This allows passengers to step on and off without having to press any buttons. This prevents violation of the Sabbath prohibition against operating electrical devices when Sabbath is in effect for those who observe this ritual. That is also true of a Paternoster: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternoster_lift https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternoster_lift

tdeck 5y ago
A paternoster would actually be far better in this application, but I don't think any have been built in a long time.

stryan 5y ago

I went to college at a place with a pretty big Jewish population and happened to live in the apartments closest to the campus Jewish center. It was always interesting to see how the Jewish students had special keys to enter the building on Shabbat or a way to automatically set the elevator to Shabbat mode. I thought it was a nice way to respect the religion while also not inconveniencing the other tenants (though I lived on the first floor anyway).

83457 5y ago
They used a key on the Sabbath to change the operation of the elevator so they would not have to press buttons on the elevator? Sounds like more work so less observant, but I guess with most religions it is the thought that counts.
- chabad360 5y ago
  It's likely the elevator would be set by default to sabbath mode, unless someone specifically pressed the button to go to a specific floor. Action is (arguably) more important than thought in Judaism.
  - 83457 5y ago
    With that in mind, why are they using the elevator at all? The fact that there is a difference between using and operating is very convenient.
- evanb 5y ago
  Not GP but I think the keys were to enter the dorm building without scanning an electronic FOB or ID card, not for the elevator.
- TchoBeer 5y ago
  You misunderstand. The key is to get into the room (as opposed to the presumably electronic locks which are usually used) and the elevator is set beforehand.

_Microft 5y ago

What’s the meaning of „the Sabbath prohibition against operating electrical devices“? Not executing a physical action? Any action? Intent? An elevator that cycles between floors and one that only moves to a floor to pick up a passenger when they wait in front of the door might be indistinguishable from the perspective of the user. Would the difference matter? What about showing the intent to exit the elevator at a particular floor by e.g. taking a step towards the door of the cabin and having the elevator detect that? Telling a liftboy where to go seems to be ok. Now let us assume that it is quite a shy liftboy, so we grant his wish to have a privacy shield to hide behind while taking the passenger’s wish. Would it matter if we replaced him with a voice assistant if the passenger had no way of telling that?

rachet 5y ago
> What’s the meaning of „the Sabbath prohibition against operating electrical devices“? The point is about the act of creation. Creation is the key point in just about all the laws. Turning on/off a switch, with intent, is an act of creation. Be it light, a spark, heat, or moving an elevator. Intent increases the severity of an action surely. Bumping into a light and turning it off, as long as it lacks intention, is more of an "oops, my bad" but you can't accidentally bump into it again. And if it's a common occurrence, you probably should address that issue since you know it will happen (you can't set someone up to fail). > ... might be indistinguishable from the perspective of the user... And yes, perspective matters, which is one of the reasons many observant avoid it. If you see someone in front of an elevator (or TV, for that matter), an outside observer would assume you're pressing buttons and breaking the law. Since others may not know about your clever work-around, it's better to avoid it, so they don't see you getting the benefits of the work-around and then doing it directly themselves. This avoids others saying "I saw an observant guy get in the elevator and part of an elevator is pressing buttons, so pressing buttons must be OK". The door sensors of elevators are another problem. On many with a shabbat mode, they only activate right before closing the door, but it is easy to make a mistake and the doors will re-open. This is another reason they are avoided by many if possible. > telling a liftboy where to go seems to be ok... Telling a liftboy is not okay. You can't order someone to do something that they wouldn't have done on their own that you aren't permitted to do yourself. If you're forbidden from turning on a light, asking someone to do it turns them into your agent, which is the same as doing it yourself. But there, like many things, is a work around. If you handed someone a book for them to read, and it was dark, you know they will want to turn on the light. But since you're not asking them to turn on the light, you're asking them to read a book -- if they turn on the light, you have no agency in that action. In the case of a lift boy or attendant, if you walked into the elevator and said something like "I live on the 7th floor" it's debatable if you intend for the person to press the button. If their job is to press the button, then it is an issue, if it is a non-employee, it's probably less of an issue. Even here, there are nuances like intent and context. If you're younger or more healthy, it's probably better to take the stairs. If you're in a high-rise and even healthy people would have issues taking the stairs, it's probably more permissible. Then, even in a high-rise, if you're going down (which is easier) then maybe the context would be different enough were the same circumstances that permitted you to use it going up aren't available for going down! As mentioned by others, the circumstances and context really matter along with the perspective of yourself and those around you. That is why there have been countless books and discussions on some seemingly simple matters.

OldHand2018 5y ago

My oven has a Sabbath mode - you set the temperature and cook time, and randomly within some time period it will turn itself on and cook, then shut off. It’s just a middle-of-the-road GE. I bet most of you actually have this kind of feature and don’t realize it. Here is a description of what this means for appliances: https://www.whirlpool.com/blog/kitchen/what-is-sabbath-mode.html https://www.whirlpool.com/blog/kitchen/what-is-sabbath-mode.... It turns out I didn’t really understand how it worked! What I described is a feature, but I guess not a Sabbath mode feature

RobertRoberts 5y ago
What is the difference between hot water, light and cooking when it comes to the Sabbath?
- rachet 5y ago
  Intent mostly, the rest is whether you are creating or not. If you have a hot water urn, that is always on and doesn't receive new water, then consuming the water isn't usually an issue. You still need to double pour (put it in one cup then in a second to ensure it isn't hot enough to cook) but using it is OK. If you have a large hot water tank, consuming the water IS an issue. Mostly because the moment that you consume the water, you can reasonably assume that cold water will enter the tank. Once cold water enters the tank, it will likely start heating. Thus, you become the agent that turns the heaters on in the tank. But, if the hot water was flowing BEFORE shabbat and you consume the hot water, your action does not directly affect the actions taken by the heating components. The heater is already on and using an extra amount of water has minimal impact on when the heaters turn off. Thus it is more allowed. Light is about creation and less about the light than the means to get it. Switches create sparks internally, lights create heat (even LEDs), and you are completing a circuit. Completion can be seen as the final act of creation. And lastly, cooking takes something from in-edible to edible. Creating food from non-food. Even on foods that are permissible to warm, they must be edible before hand. They also cannot substantially change form -- nothing too liquid or anything that would go from solid to liquid. With that framework, warming up a piece of left over baked chicken would be OK, whereas making a grilled-cheese sandwich wouldn't be OK.

nanis 5y ago

I don't think one can talk about Shabbas and elevators without mentioning Feynman's take[1]. [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/ev3gy/excerpt_from_richard_feynman_is_electricity_fire/ https://old.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/ev3gy/excerpt_from... PS: I am linking to where I easily found a good quotation with enough context. It is not an argument for atheism.

TchoBeer 5y ago
Lol the Jewish Theological Seminary is definitely not Orthodox. I'm surprised they even know enough halacha to know how to explain it; maybe it's gotten less orthodox over time.
- jsmith99 5y ago
  Which is why they did not know the actual answer to his question! The answer is that God is universal but the commandment to rest on shabbos was addressed only to Jews. https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/13447/is-it-a-discouraged-or-an-unacceptable-practice-for-a-gentile-to-keep-the-sabbat https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/13447/is-it-a-di...
  - TchoBeer 5y ago
    It's funny how that's not even close to a difficult question. Feynman is so impressed with their logic when a teenager could answer that question in one sentence.
vxNsr 5y ago
> While I was at the conference, I stayed at the Jewish Theological Seminary, where young rabbis--I think they were Orthodox--were studying. Since I have a Jewish background, I knew of some of the things they told me about the Talmud, but I had never seen the Talmud. It was very interesting. It's got big pages, and in a little square in the corner of the page is the original Talmud, and then in a sort of L-shaped margin, all around this square, are commentaries written by different people. The Talmud has evolved, and everything has been discussed again and again, all very carefully, in a medieval kind of reasoning. I think the commentaries were shut down around the thirteen- or fourteen- or fifteen-hundreds--there hasn't been any modern commentary. This is mostly wrong as other have pointed out. JTS is not by any estimation orthodox. At most it would be considered Jewish-conservative. I’m surprised to learn they are concerned with not pushing elevator buttons, if that was true then it’s certainly not true today. Additionally, the Talmud absolutely has commentaries from the modern era, you can find commentaries from even the 1950s. Though it does take a few years for those to make it into the book. Maybe not directly in the margin but likely sub-noted to the back of the book. I also find it hilarious that he calls it medieval logic and then admits they out foxed him at every turn in any logical debate he tried. Not to mention I could likely take down the arguments he proposes without much trouble and I’m no rabbi.

crowf 5y ago

> In hospitals, elevators with Sabbath mode would be considered dangerous because they are to be relied on for fast service for transporting patients in dire need of care or surgery. That's wrong for 2 reasons. First of all, most/all major hospitals in Israel have a shabbat mode. The solutions are either to have many elevators, with only some of them stoping at every floor, and/or have a manual override. If someone presses a button it goes directly there, otherwise it goes floor by floor.

tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
> If someone presses a button it goes directly there, otherwise it goes floor by floor. This is also a good compromise to let people follow their religious practices without imposing the impact from them on everyone else.
- pmiller2 5y ago
  Pushing the button in this case is still in accordance with Judaism. There is a commandment to preserve life that takes precedence over everything else.
  - aaronbrethorst 5y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh

brianwawok 5y ago

Kosherswitch for a light switch is a fun read, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KosherSwitch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KosherSwitch Was an Indiegogo and all.

fortran77 5y ago

Please don't speculate on what's allowed and what's not. See an authoritative source like https://www.zomet.org.il/eng/ https://www.zomet.org.il/eng/ And also, many Jews don't hold that Shabbat Elevators are kosher. There's debate within the community. I take the stairs.

bardorna 5y ago
> see an authoritative source > There's debate within the community
- jkap 5y ago
  as a jew, this is simply the nature of judaism
  - vxNsr 5y ago
    Ya, an equally good response is “Welcome to Judaism” Though the sibling comment is more accurate.
- TchoBeer 5y ago
  It's a bit like if someone says something about how "quantum mechanics means that your consciousness can alter reality" and you said "that's not what it means" and they said "okay then what is the correct interpretation of quantum mechanics" and you said "it's complicated and there are different opinions" like just because there's debate doesn't mean all opinions are equally authoritative.
- yhersk0vitz 5y ago
  Very common in Judaism. As we like to say, "two jews, three opinions."
  - jaza 5y ago
    I thought it was "10 Jews, 11 opinions"? See, we can't even agree on the wording of the expression that describes how much we disagree about things! :P

_hijk 5y ago

I am an orthodox Jew who lives in an apartment building with a Sabbath elevator. I usually takes the stairs on the Sabbath, but use the elevator occasionally. While in it, I always contemplate other possible strategies the elevator could use to speed up the runtime. All Sabbath elevators I've seen follow the route `1,2,3,...,N,1,2,...` which can take up to `2N - 1` steps (open/close cycles) in the worst case (you just miss the elevator on the ground floor and are going up to `N`). What if they went `1,2,4,6,...,N,1,3,5,7,...,N`? Worst case is still `2N -1` but if you relax the goal to only care about getting within one floor of your target (go one away from your floor and take the stairs for the last flight) worst case drops to `N`. (Each step would take a little longer due to having to travel 2 flights, but most of the time is spent waiting for the doors anyways.) Has anyone seen a Sabbath elevator that doesn't follow the standard route?

riskneutral 5y ago
Can you not just use an NFC tag to choose your floor, or call the elevator? No button pressing required, just stand near the door with your keys in your pocket.
- gnicholas 5y ago
  This is an interesting question. It involves carrying a tracker and using it to trigger a sensor. I don't know much about how these rules are interpreted, but that seems like it could run afoul of them. A closer case would be if there were an elevator that had a camera that recognized every person who approached it who lived in the building, and which took them to the floor they live on.
  - hawaiianbrah 5y ago
    That _is_ an interesting question. If there is an eruv, carrying is fine. Motion sensors are _not_ kosher as I understand it, so I think this idea wouldn’t fly either.
    - whatshisface 5y ago

tguvot 5y ago

In Israel most of elevators (at least modern one) have Sabbath mode. It has interesting implications upon relations between neighbors within building. As long as "composition" of building is homogeneous, i.e. either totally religious or secular, Sabbath mode will be either on or off. But it becomes tricky when into secular building move one or more religious families that request to turn Sabbath mode on. In best case scenario there are two elevators (required for buildings with more than 5 floors), so one of them will get switched to Sabbath mode (though bunch of people will be unhappy as electricity usage of building will go up + some inconvenience). If there is only one elevator, Greek drama might be a correct way to describe what happens. edit: from the other side misery of lonely secular family in religious building where all elevators are in sabbath mode is real...

joshschreuder 5y ago
Without knowing anything of the religious rules at play here, could you have an elevator that incorporates both? Eg. default is to travel in Sabbath mode but non-religious residents could still use the buttons to override it to a specific floor if they desire? Obviously you still have the increased electrical consumption but you remove the inconvenience of stopping every floor for those who aren’t required to.
- tguvot 5y ago
  Probably it will make elevator non-kosher...
  - TchoBeer 5y ago
    Probably not. It's not the elevator that's nonkosher, it's pressing the buttons.
    - tguvot 5y ago
      De Jure - yes. You are right. In reality (in Israel, in this case), many people come up with their own versions/interpretation/complications of Jewish law. As anecdote, I knew one semi-religious family (masorati but coming from very famous ultra-orthodox lineage). They won't cook on Sabbath; they won't join friends to BBQ - because Sabbath and you can't make fire but they will operate all the other appliances and will drive around in car.

js2 5y ago

Judaism has a lot of rules: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments But the sanctity of life trumps virtually all of them, so you can almost always violate a commandment to save a life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh

jedberg 5y ago
As teenage boys in Hebrew school, we always tried to figure out ways in which violating the commandment against adultery could save a life.
- tovmeod 5y ago
  If I remember correctly there are 3 things you can't do to save a life: illicit relations, take a life and idolatry. Meaning even that if you do find yourself in a situation where cheating on your wife would actually save a life then it will still be forbidden
  - TchoBeer 5y ago
    Yeah, there's actually an explicit example in the talmud. https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.75a.2?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.75a.2?lang=bi&with=all&lan... definitely prohibited EDIT: actually this gemara is an example of saving ones own life, so maybe not
- herendin2 5y ago
  Then, to suggest an extreme and unpleasant scenario (sorry), a Jewish man who seduced Hitler's mother on a Saturday in early 1888 (the year before Adolf's birth) might be exempted from these Sabbath rules, perhaps?
- JimDabell 5y ago
  You should watch the first episode of Black Mirror. Depending upon your exact interpretation of the rules, this may contain an example.

jedberg 5y ago

Jews are the original hackers. Our religion has a lot of rules (like a whole lot) and as technology has progressed, the rules have not, so we've had to come up with a lot of workarounds, and also been enabled by technology. This is one great example. Also a lot of ovens have sabbath mode. So do TVs (although those are just timers for on and off now). The Eruv wire is another Jewish hack. Alexa has opened up a whole new avenue of hacks. Previously you had to get light switches with random timers if you wanted electric light on Saturday, but now you can make an Alexa routine that is triggered by certain words or motions so that it technically doesn't count as "activating" the switch. Jews have basically been hacking for 5000 years. :)

surround 5y ago
See also: Amish hackers https://kk.org/thetechnium/amish-hackers-a/ https://kk.org/thetechnium/amish-hackers-a/
marton78 5y ago
It is something I never understood: why the practice of finding creative ways of getting around laws of the very religion you claim to adhere to is generally accepted in Judaism. While undoubtedly charming, by paying someone to speak the Kaddish for one year instead of yourself, or paying a Shabbes Goy to push buttons on your behalf just outsources your religious duties. Having the elevator stop at every floor even the opposite effect achieved than the spirit of the law intends: more energy is consumed on Shabbes than on other days. Why not be honest to yourself and admit that you actually don't care so much about the Laws?
- smsm42 5y ago
  It's not about consumption of energy. Shabbat in Judaism is not an energy saving measure, it's a religious ceremony. Judaism is big on doing things differently for a reason (one could probably write a PhD thesis on it) and Shabbat is one of those where the different thing is avoiding making changes in the world. Of course, as with many major religions, everybody finds their own meanings within the framework.

throwmeaway1p 5y ago

As a child in Israel, I was fascinated with these rules. That said, I’m saddened to see how so many people are excited by these laws, when people who are forced to live by them in Israel suffer, as there’s only one kind of “true” Judaism followed here. They can and often are used for discrimination, hate towards minorities and significant limits of freedom about what you can do, who to marry, what to eat and more. For example, someone here used “goyim” in its pure sense - someone not from the people of Israel. I’ve often seen it used as a hate word.

tovmeod 5y ago
> who are forced to live by them in Israel Not true, no one is forced, Israel is not a dictatorship
gentlest_hum 5y ago
No one is forced to do any of this, if you were Jewish you'd know that. Goyim is also not a slur and refers in many instances ALSO to Jews, since it just means "nation." Quit fibbin.
- TchoBeer 5y ago
  >Goyim is also not a slur and refers in many instances ALSO to Jews, since it just means "nation." I don't know if you live in a jewish community, but people _definitely_ use the word "goy" in a derogatory manner. Lots of slurs also mean innocuous things; "coon" is an example, which can refer both to raccoons and also is a slur for black people.
w0de0 5y ago
What saddens me is the intellectual waste the study and interpretation of these laws creates. There’s an entire generation with a normal distribution of potential and intelligence, and above average in work ethic - and they are arguing obscure religious laws in a yeshiva for their whole life. What a waste.

shimfish 5y ago

If we're being nerdy about this then there are other considerations to worry about apart from just not pressing buttons. For example, if the elevator is going down the passenger weight could increase the speed of descent marginally. This would mean the light indicating the floor number would change quicker than it would have done without the passenger being there. Therefore some authorities will only permit the Sabbath Elevator if it shuts off all indicator lights also.

tovmeod 5y ago
I once heard that because of this one should make an hydraulic elevator, so the passenger weight would not affect the energy used, not sure if this holds true or if it is even practical
- jdiez17 5y ago
  I don’t think that’s true. Hydraulics are just a way of transferring/multiplying force, like gears or belts (but much more powerful). The amount of weight to be moved will certainly modulate the energy consumption of the motor.

dwheeler 5y ago

There is a non-Jewish use for this. I remember developing code for a simulated elevator system, and Sabbath mode is an excellent backup mode if you detect that the elevator floor buttons are not working. While it's nowhere near as efficient as properly working mechanisms, it provides reduced functionality instead of being useless. I think many systems should be designed with reduced functionality modes, and have them automatically enabled when practical. It's often better to have a partially working system than a total failure.

b15h0p 5y ago
Pinball machines are an excellent example of this. They consist of numerous electro-mechanical components that are prone to failures due to repeatedly being hit by a heavy steel ball at high speed. If one of the component breaks, it might take a while for a service technician to get out to some remote bar. To make sure that the machine can continue to collect coins, it modifies its rule-set avoiding broken components. It will also display a little dot in one of the corners of the display to signal that it is in need of repair.

illustriousbear 5y ago

What a waste of electricity for a stupid religion.

TruthWillHurt 5y ago
As a non-observant jewish person that used to live in Israel - I agree. It's a total nightmare.

_hijk 5y ago

I wanted to post an alternative approach to 'rules lawyering' in Judaism in contrast to the 'loophole' approach taken by some comments in the thread: God does not have a vendetta against elevators. God decreed specific sets of rules that make actions on the Sabbath forbidden, as interpreted by rabbis over the generations. When new situations arise the rules are applied to the new situation to see whether it is permitted or forbidden. Sometimes, like with elevators, the consensus is that the new situation is forbidden. In such a case, if there is good reason, the question becomes: "is there a way that we can tweak the situation so that it doesn't fall into the forbidden category?". For elevators, the answer is yes. This still follows the spirit and letter of the law, because the spirit of the law really only applied to the reasons that made the elevator problematic in the first place and not to the whole concept of elevators.

shawnz 5y ago
What is the "spirit" of the law that's being violated when you press an elevator button, that isn't violated by general usage of the elevator at all?
- _hijk 5y ago
  The answer to that question is quite tricky because the spirit of the law gets much less discussion in the literature compared to the letter. A simple explanation is that God restricted Jews from 'work' that affects the world in certain ways on Shabbat in order that they should rest. For example, no building, or lighting fires. However, they can benefit from pre-existing fires or buildings. Pressing the elevator button is akin to one of these forbidden effects (which one depends on a broad discussion about electricity on Shabbat), going against the injunction to rest. Walking in to the elevator and it moving automatically is more similar to benefitting from an existing fire. While it may seem strange that pressing the elevator button is considered 'work', the answer to that is that the definition of work is directly related to the laws and not necessarily some external metric like effort. This means that the spirit and letter end up very closely related, but I think the distinction still exists.

js2 5y ago

See also: kosher-for-Passover Coca Cola https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/23/us/23religion.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/23/us/23religion.html

coward76 5y ago

Maybe facial detection post covid masking would allow the elevators to smartly drop off passengers but this whole concept of having automatic processes violates the rule of making "strangers within your gates from working".

mikesabbagh 5y ago

As I was walking on the street, I was asked by a jewish man to turn on his oven on a Saturday! That was one of the weirdest experience ever! first, this man did not want to sin, so he asked me to do this for him. He did not care if i sinned i guess!! Second, if there is a God, I hope he is not so silly to care if I pushed a button on a Saturday or not?

TchoBeer 5y ago
I don't know the specifics of his situations, but in general asking a gentile to do work for you is also prohibited. but also >He did not care if i sinned i guess!! doing work is only a sin for jews, not gentiles.