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It's seriously time to re-embrace the idea of ownership and control of our devices, and reject Android and iOS altogether. Developing for those platforms has b

It's seriously time to re-embrace the idea of ownership and control of our devices, and reject Android and iOS altogether. Developing for those platforms has become worse and more restrictive over the years, and this kind of crap is now just everyday news. How good are Pinephones[1]? Are there better alternatives? [1] https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/ https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/

Aperocky 5y ago
Maybe it's just time to see phones as what they are - a phone. I don't really care what software is ran in my truck, as long as it works (And that's why I'll not buy a Tesla). It's a phone, use it to call text and guide and browse some internet. That's it.
- goda90 5y ago
  Phones are the only pocket computers that see quick advances in performance and battery use. For someone who wants a pocket sized computer, it's just most convenient to combine it with your phone.
  - Aperocky 5y ago
    But they are horrible as production machines, at least until when our brain is no longer using our body as interfaces. For pure pocket sized computing, why not use RPi? It's both much cheaper, more customizable, and it runs Linux. With enough tweaking you can make it run completely headless, plug-and-run mini computer that you can ssh over local network. I think the biggest problem with the combining idea is that computing in general is about productivity, and phone is about phone stuff.
    - dividedbyzero 5y ago
      Phones are kinda too small, but iPads (which are, in essence, oversized phones) are just fine for production machines if you don't equate productivity with programming. With a Pencil and Procreate, it's really hard to beat for drawing and illustrating. With an external keyboard and some kind of stand writing is a joy, I like it better than on a proper computer because of a ton of little things that help me keep focused and because the device is so portable and doesn't have the laptop form factor with a permanently attached keyboard, with bluetooth periphery it's more like a wireless battery-powered external screen. Light to medium spreadsheet work is also totally doable, and I've build dozens of slide decks in various apps, with hand-drawn illustrations. I use a Pi as a mini server, but doing creative work on one, I can't imagine that to be as nice and slick as on the iPad. Last time I tried the PiOS desktop, it definitely wasn't.
      - Aperocky 5y ago
        You're absolutely right about drawing and other 2D renders. I may have overlooked this because I have not a bone for arts in my body and prefers the terminal to UI.
    - megous 5y ago
      It's not much cheaper if you want battery, LCD with CTP, and perhaps a LTE modem for non-wifi mobile internet. Also it would have a horrible form factor. Pinephone is basically a smarthpone shaped SBC, with much better software situation than rpi, and you can use it as such. I ssh into mine all the time. You can connect anything you like to it via USB hub, incl. the full keyboard and mouse. You can use bluetooth keyboard, and just do normal computing you'd do on your dekstop, etc. Except for small display and lower performance there's no differnece.
- kaibee 5y ago
  > I don't really care what software is ran in my truck, as long as it works I mean, exactly what recourse do you think you'll have once it stops working..? You'll sell your not working truck (to who?) and buy a new one (that is also soft-locked because it was the only way to stay competitive?)? Right to Repair: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvVafMi0l68 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvVafMi0l68
  - Aperocky 5y ago
    That's a different topic though. Also, the software vended by traditional car companies are usually bound with hardware and readily replaceable if a reboot can't solve the problem.
- fmajid 5y ago
  > Maybe it's just time to see phones as what they are - a phone. Maybe it's time to call phones what they really are: pocket computers with a legacy voice call functionality that is increasingly irrelevant to anyone who isn't a Boomer. Now, regarding the locked-down of both iOS and Android ecosystems, I can see both points of view. The majority of ordinary users need to be protected from increasingly sophisticated malware stealing their online banking credentials or other mischief, but power users also need to do whatever they want to do once they've signed a disclaimer
  - badsectoracula 5y ago
    > with a legacy voice call functionality that is increasingly irrelevant to anyone who isn't a Boomer. Sadly this requires mobile Internet prices to at least match voice call prices, which is not the case in many (developed or not) parts of the world.
  - Aperocky 5y ago
    > pocket computers with a legacy voice call functionality I don't necessarily agree with this, because this is the direction that everything is moving towards. It is so much cheaper to embed an SOC into everything that needs some form of automated/assisted control. Not necessarily a good thing, but that's what is going to happen regardless. Your fridge can become a pocket computer with refrigerating capability - but you'll still see it as a fridge. It's really about how you see and utilize these items.
    - danans 5y ago
      > Your fridge can become a pocket computer with refrigerating capability - Only if you have huge pockets ;)
      - necovek 5y ago
        Or a tiny fridge! :)
        5y ago
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
  I envy your chill. We all do need to take a deep breath at times and realize it's truly a first world problem. With that said your truck analogy isn't perfect. Your truck will last as long as you keep it going. That can be 20 years or more. It would be more like having a truck that the doors do not lock anymore after 2 years and you cannot fix that you must buy a new truck if you don't want thieves.
  - karlicoss 5y ago
    Also I think the analogy doesn't quite work because a truck is a truck. You can do some customization, you might (or not be) able to change some parts, or being a mechanical engineer you might even be able to repair it or enhance. But it will always fundamentally be a truck. The difference from phones is that a phone is a computer, and as such it has computer's endless potential. For some it can be just a phone, sure. But many people want to use it as an extension of their mind, as knowledge management tool, as a creative tool, etc. The frustrating bit is that is many aspects phones are much nicer and better suited for such tasks than regular desktop computers (think portability, having cameras & sensors etc), yet because of these walled gardens it's much harder for a knowledgeable person to leverage this potential.
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
      Exactly. You have almost complete control over it which is exactly why trucks can last so long IRL. If your radio stops working you don't need to buy a new truck.
    - Vrondi 5y ago
      You are displaying your ignorance of trucks. For decades now, all automobiles and trucks have included proprietary computer systems. Some are easy to hack and alter. Some are more expensive/challenging, but people do it. An EV is missing _most_ of the mechanical parts that defined a "truck" for a century, and is basically only four tiny motors, brakes, a computer system, and a battery with wheels. The sole characteristics of "truck" that still remain which Henry Ford would recognize are "has wheels" and "can carry cargo".
- marcus_holmes 5y ago
  I uninstalled all social media from my phone. I feel so much better. I use it for chat apps, phone calls (usually via chat apps), and occasionally wandering around Imgur when it would be socially awkward to not be on my phone. The rest of the time I've come to appreciate being present in the moment. So yeah, I'm looking at the new generation of Linux phones with interest. If I can run the chat apps in a browser OK, then I think it might work for me.
  - ficklepickle 5y ago
    In what kind of situations is it socially awkward to not be on your phone? Genuine question, I'm not great with social stuff.
    - ShroudedNight 5y ago
      When loitering, I've found that phones are a strong signal that distinguishes those uninterested in engaging with the strangers around them, from those that are. When trying to convey one's innocuousness to the wardens of a domain, it can be helpful to use your phone. Related, if in a group, everybody else disengages to be engrossed in their phone, it can be helpful to do the same if one does not want to demonstrate a vulnerable dependency on the generosity of their attention. A lot of awkwardness comes down to self-perception of vulnerability.
      - Vrondi 5y ago
        A paperback book or something can give the same social signal. :)
      - marcus_holmes 5y ago
        this, mainly. Though if everyone else is on their phone, and the crowd is large enough, I find it fascinating to people-watch.
    - marcus_holmes 5y ago
      I'm a middle-aged white guy. In situations where everyone else is 20 years younger and dressed in half the clothing I am, I come across as a total perv if I look at anything except my phone. Or at least that's how it plays out in my head. I do find it useful to sometimes be absorbed in my phone and not aware of what's going on around me. Or at least to have that impression.
- RHSeeger 5y ago
  But for many people, maybe even most people, they're not just "a phone". They're a multi-purpose tool that comes in the form factor of a mobile phone. Camera, chat, web browser, games, social media, music player, access to nearly the sum total of human knowledge... Treating such as tool as merely "a phone" doesn't make any sense.
  - SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
    It’s still a phone actually and colloquially even if I use the Phone App infrequently. The point isn’t what you call it. OP’s point was and I agree that you don’t need to have full control over every device that can possibly run code. Just let it be a device that does its thing. It’s the difference in people that want calm technology vs “power users”. I want the device to exist waiting on my input and even though I have deep knowledge of its internal systems and processes, I don’t care, I just want it to work, solve a problem for me, and I’ll put it away. Go ahead and root your phone to do whatever actively complex thing you need... it’s a tool for me and I personally want the walled garden to prevent it from possibly not working when I need it.
    - 3np 5y ago
      > you don’t need to have full control over every device that can possibly run code I argue that if the device sends data to third parties over radio/internet and/or the manufacturer can remotely push updates that changes the devices behavior then users must have full control. Something like that should become law. Then manufacturers can keep devices locked down as long as they stay out of the surveillance game.
    - RHSeeger 5y ago
      > The point isn’t what you call it. OP’s point was and I agree that you don’t need to have full control over every device that can possibly run code. Just let it be a device that does its thing. That's not how I read the op, who said "It's a phone, use it to call text and guide and browse some internet. That's it". The tone in that reads not like "you don't need to..." it reads like "you should not...", which I disagree with. I rarely use my phone to make calls. I use it as a multi-function tool of tremendous capability. If I wanted a simple flip phone, I would have bought one of those, instead.
- blimeymate 5y ago
  I don't have or need software in a truck, statist apologist.
- detaro 5y ago
  But that's not what vendors are selling, and what most people are buying.
- dcow 5y ago
  What’s wrong with Tesla software?
  - harrierpigeon 5y ago
    One thing that comes to mind is that the wiper functionality has to be accessed from the center console touchscreen, and generally when you need it on you need it right then.
    - dcow 5y ago
      Not on the Model 3,Y, it doesn't. You press the button on the left widget behind the steering wheel (the lever/knob you use for your turn signal).
  - Aperocky 5y ago
    The ratio of amount and significance of action it takes over my trust in it is too high.
    - dcow 5y ago
      You don't need to use any of the driver assistance features. It’s not doing any of that if you don’t explicitly engage it and sometimes even requires enabling settings toggles.
      - Aperocky 5y ago
        Here's the deal though, when I press the brake pedal in my truck the force is mechanically applied via a hydraulic system to brake pads in the wheels. I've read that Tesla abstracted all that with electric signals coming from a computer, now a proprietary software system sits between my legs input and the brake pads. What if it goes wrong? You can try to convince me that it is an RTOS where signals from the brake pedal have the highest priority. And it seems to be that way, but I'd rather not. I've dealt with enough computer problem to trust some onboard computer that can receive updates from the internet over how I brake.
goda90 5y ago
I haven't tried any Linux phone, but a couple of other alternatives include F(x)tex [0] and Librem 5[1] [0]https://www.fxtec.com/ https://www.fxtec.com/ [1]https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/
twobitshifter 5y ago
I’d be hesitant to jump on another platform unless it has a way of locking down app permissions similar to iOS. I think it’s been shown that the app review process is a farce, but the permissions system like the new app tracking feature is great for privacy and security. If this droid script equivalent were going to start reading my emails watching me through the camera, reading my clipboard, or tracking my real world location, I’d definitely want something that alerted me to that before it happened.
- swiley 5y ago
  There is a way to do that: don't run untrusted code outside the browser.
- joshuaissac 5y ago
  > If this droid script equivalent were going to start reading my emails watching me through the camera, reading my clipboard, or tracking my real world location, I’d definitely want something that alerted me to that before it happened. Android has supported permissions since at least Froyo (2010), and these permission requests were made on-demand/runtime rather than pre-install with Marshmallow (2015). So Droidscript would be unable to do any of those things (except reading the clipboard) until you explicitly granted those permissions to the app.
x86ARMsRace 5y ago
> Small numbers (1-3) of stuck or dead pixels are a characteristic of LCD screens. These are normal and should not be considered a defect. Their product line does not really inspire much faith. I can't say I've bought a device in the past 10 years which has dead pixels on the display. To me, this is a defect, given that I can pick up a device, overwrite Windows with Linux, and have a device without dead pixels.
- goda90 5y ago
  Check out their philosophy[0]. They aren't exactly a company targeting end user consumers. They want to put affordable hardware in the hands of a community of tinkerers. [0]https://www.pine64.org/philosophy/ https://www.pine64.org/philosophy/
  - x86ARMsRace 5y ago
    Well, as both an end-user and tinkerer, I'd rather not have to own two devices when I can go out and get one that will cover all my bases.
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      Good luck with that. See how long that last, if the current trend continues. Soon you might have to aquire a certified developerversion to unlock your device to tinker with it.
      - x86ARMsRace 5y ago
        Regardless, Pine does not look like a product I'd put my faith in. Perhaps someone else, sure, but Pine inspires no trust from me.
    - 3np 5y ago
      Sounds like Purism Librem5 is more for you then?
      - 5y ago
shadowgovt 5y ago
Most users would prefer a mostly safe experience and gladly give up the option to run arbitrary code on their device for that experience (including arbitrary code they've written). In an all-out "this or that" between allowing IDEs on the Play Store in general and giving the average Play Store user what they want, the IDEs would lose. But it does suck if there is no legitimate way to release an IDE targeted to run on a mobile device via the Google Play Store.
- pydry 5y ago
  Most users don't really understand what they're giving up when they give up the option to run arbitrary code As with privacy (Facebook privacy settings, cookie boxes), it's easy to bamboozle the general public with complexity and then interpret their confusion and (violated) trust as consent.
  - wyattpeak 5y ago
    This is one case though where that lack of understanding leads to the right conclusion. The average user is giving up nothing by losing the right to run arbitrary code, because they never were running arbitrary code.
    - salawat 5y ago
      Which is why it's all the more important to fight against it. Change your point a bit. People are fine with giving up Freedom because they were never really Free in the first place. Circular reasoning is sucha seductive fallacy because it'll fit any use case like a glove.
      - shadowgovt 5y ago
        Tweaking your wording slightly, it's basically the fundamentals of social contract theory. I may have the freedom to bash my neighbor's head with a rock, but they have the same freedom to do the same to me. This isn't as useful as the freedom to sleep at night, so we voluntarily give up this freedom. Reframing to the topic at hand: if the freedom to mutate the code on my mobile device makes it more likely that I'll get pwned by some clever social-engineering than the odds I'll improve my quality of life by tweaking some behaviors on the phone, then it's entirely rational for me to give up that freedom. And, indeed, millions of phone purchasers annually make that decision.
swebs 5y ago
>How good are Pinephones[1]? Are there better alternatives? I like mine, but the ancient CPU needs a serious upgrade. There's also the Librem 5, but it looks like they're heavily back ordered.
arp242 5y ago
The biggest problem with "alternative" platforms is just the lack of app support. I used to have a Nokia N9; great phone. But it didn't support WhatsApp and I was out on the loop on the WhatsApp chat all my other coworkers were in. Then there's things like banking apps, flight check-in apps, food ordering apps, dating apps, etc. etc. Can you do without those? Sure, of course. But if I want to order food where I live then the only option is to use an app. No platform will have any chance of any sort of adoption unless it supports some way of running those apps. There are options here, for example Jolla/Sailfish OS can run Android apps (no idea how well that works in practice; the latest update says it supports "Android 9, and the support for Android 10 is already nicely on the way"). It's a "vendor lock-in" ecosystem that's worse than the Windows lock-in of yesteryear IMO. Since I don't really use my phone all that much I decided to "just use an iPhone" (because it's the only phone that's not huge), even I think they're really horrible.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- skykooler 5y ago
  I use Sailfish OS and the android compatibility layer is decent, but not perfect. Some apps have issues understanding the network connectivity state, and photos taken with the Sailfish camera app sometimes don't show up in the Android file selector until the compatibility layer is restarted. Other than that, most apps work fine. (I mainly use it for spotify, slack and maps.)
- Calamity 5y ago
  Unless PWAs really took off, in which case, you wouldn't need to develop for the custom linux phone - you would just need a supported browser.
  - ficklepickle 5y ago
    PWAs will continue to be neglected. They don't allow invasive tracking like native apps, and they don't get a 30% cut. The web is dead. Kids today grow up using the "google app". They did what AOL couldn't. I'd love to be wrong.
okaram 5y ago
It doesn't much matter how good they are, since you can't buy them (their products are usually out of stock for months at a time; right now, they are in pre-sales etc). I like what they are doing, but it is definitely not mainstream products.
johnbrodie 5y ago
I got my Pinephone last week, and have been fairly surprised that it's reasonably usable. I viewed the purchase more as a donation and a signal that there is a market, but I've been using it more and my Android phone less as the days go by. I'd encourage more people here to purchase one, even if just to tinker with. There's so many "I'll buy one when it's ready" replies, but that may never happen if there's no money to fund the companies trying to make an alternative to Android/iOS.
loa_in_ 5y ago
Remember that you can still use Android without Google apps entirely. Depending on how popular your device is, you can retain close to 100% of functionality. You can also use banking apps etc. but methods are in constant flux and it's an ongoing battle
phh 5y ago
Maybe don't scratch Android too fast. Android is opensource, and is technically really great. There is a great opensource community of people that are very capable in this area, and supports already the vast majority of devices in the world. You only need to get rid of Google. Which many custom Android provide. Personally my smartphone is a Pixel 5 (IMO best smartphone currently available that fit in a hand), running Android, without any Google application. I'm very happy with it, and from what I discussed with Pinephone users, it's lightyears more usable than what exists for Pinephone.
- johnbrodie 5y ago
  More and more functionality is being shoved into Google Play Services. I have a deGoogled phone running Lineage, but even with that, no Google Play Services, and some custom settings (like changing the captive portal URLs), there's still network traffic to Google. Add in relative unknowns like AGPS and the situation gets even worse. I also have no push notifications for most apps, have to keep a static notification so Android doesn't kill apps like my email client, AND still run micro-G for basic functionality to work. Oh, and thanks to SafetyNet there are still apps that refuse to run, even with systemless "undetectable" root. Android itself might be really good, but it's pretty obvious that deGoogled phones have a strong chance of being functionally useless in the future.
  - phh 5y ago
    The ratio of available apps of Android without gapps over pinephone is still more than 1000 fold, despite SafetyNet or other reliances on Google. For push notifications, microg does fill the gap, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. UnifiedPush is coming to fill this gap without violating Google's ToC, with self-hosting, and fully FLOSS. Is anything like that coming to PinePhone or Librem? The Google phone-home "features" can be removed, and this is exactly the point of this thread. Android is opensource, you can control this platform however you want, especially removing all connections to Google services. I'm guessing what you're saying is that you installed some custom Android ROM, and expected it to remove any Google tracker, but that's a wrong assumption, most Android ROMs don't target deGoogling. Even my AOSP GSI, with FLOSS variant doesn't target removing Google phone-home features. Why? I don't approve of any data collection on Google's DNS, AGPS, or generate 204, which means it is illegal for them to use it to track me without my consent, and I believe that they are not total outlaws. Running a DNS, AGPS, or even generate 204 reliable infrastructure is hard.
ehsankia 5y ago
> re-embrace the idea of ownership and control of our devices Overall I would agree, but I don't see how this specific example has anything to do with that sentiment. You still have control of your device and can install DroidScript from APK or F-Droid, it was only removed from Play Store, Google's own store. Obviously this is awful for DroidScript themselves, but you as a user didn't really lose any ownership over your phone due to this specific issue.
kllrnohj 5y ago
The platform doesn't give a flying fuck about Droidscript. It's play store that does. So just get serious about using alternate stores, which the platform fully lets you do (f-droid, amazon app store, whatever).
d--b 5y ago
I bought one last week
franga2000 5y ago
Ditching Android is not a good solution - see the application support problem on Linux for why. What we need is a serious and well-funded Android "distro" that lifts Google's dumb restrictions and reimplements Google's proprietary APIs for compatibility. MicroG is doing very well on that second part, but due to lack of funding still has far too many holes.
- meltedcapacitor 5y ago
  No amount of funding can fix this, at least for all use cases where apps communicate via google services between phone and app HQ. The average bank is not going to send data between bank and user via microg-operated pipes instead of google-operated pipes because 0.1% of their users don't like google.
  - franga2000 5y ago
    The average banking app doesn't communicate via google-operated pipes. Basically the only thing I've seen baking apps do via Google (and I've reverse-engineered quite a few) is the SafetyNet check to ensure their bullshit policy about modified devices. Well, that and notifications, but microG already emulates that library and uses Google's servers afaik. If a phone manufacturer started shipping Android phones without GApps and they got popular enough, developers would start being more careful with relying on Google Services. We saw this with Huawei - their phones are reall popular where I live and after tons of complaints from huawei users, a bunch of companies fixed their apps to gracefully handle the lack of Google Play Services.
takeda 5y ago
When Mozilla was trying to get their OS for mobile phones, I think they stepped in too early. Right now it's probably a better time for an alternative.

Aperocky 5y ago

Maybe it's just time to see phones as what they are - a phone. I don't really care what software is ran in my truck, as long as it works (And that's why I'll not buy a Tesla). It's a phone, use it to call text and guide and browse some internet. That's it.

goda90 5y ago
Phones are the only pocket computers that see quick advances in performance and battery use. For someone who wants a pocket sized computer, it's just most convenient to combine it with your phone.
- Aperocky 5y ago
  But they are horrible as production machines, at least until when our brain is no longer using our body as interfaces. For pure pocket sized computing, why not use RPi? It's both much cheaper, more customizable, and it runs Linux. With enough tweaking you can make it run completely headless, plug-and-run mini computer that you can ssh over local network. I think the biggest problem with the combining idea is that computing in general is about productivity, and phone is about phone stuff.
  - dividedbyzero 5y ago
    Phones are kinda too small, but iPads (which are, in essence, oversized phones) are just fine for production machines if you don't equate productivity with programming. With a Pencil and Procreate, it's really hard to beat for drawing and illustrating. With an external keyboard and some kind of stand writing is a joy, I like it better than on a proper computer because of a ton of little things that help me keep focused and because the device is so portable and doesn't have the laptop form factor with a permanently attached keyboard, with bluetooth periphery it's more like a wireless battery-powered external screen. Light to medium spreadsheet work is also totally doable, and I've build dozens of slide decks in various apps, with hand-drawn illustrations. I use a Pi as a mini server, but doing creative work on one, I can't imagine that to be as nice and slick as on the iPad. Last time I tried the PiOS desktop, it definitely wasn't.
    - Aperocky 5y ago
      You're absolutely right about drawing and other 2D renders. I may have overlooked this because I have not a bone for arts in my body and prefers the terminal to UI.
  - megous 5y ago
    It's not much cheaper if you want battery, LCD with CTP, and perhaps a LTE modem for non-wifi mobile internet. Also it would have a horrible form factor. Pinephone is basically a smarthpone shaped SBC, with much better software situation than rpi, and you can use it as such. I ssh into mine all the time. You can connect anything you like to it via USB hub, incl. the full keyboard and mouse. You can use bluetooth keyboard, and just do normal computing you'd do on your dekstop, etc. Except for small display and lower performance there's no differnece.
kaibee 5y ago
> I don't really care what software is ran in my truck, as long as it works I mean, exactly what recourse do you think you'll have once it stops working..? You'll sell your not working truck (to who?) and buy a new one (that is also soft-locked because it was the only way to stay competitive?)? Right to Repair: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvVafMi0l68 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvVafMi0l68
- Aperocky 5y ago
  That's a different topic though. Also, the software vended by traditional car companies are usually bound with hardware and readily replaceable if a reboot can't solve the problem.
fmajid 5y ago
> Maybe it's just time to see phones as what they are - a phone. Maybe it's time to call phones what they really are: pocket computers with a legacy voice call functionality that is increasingly irrelevant to anyone who isn't a Boomer. Now, regarding the locked-down of both iOS and Android ecosystems, I can see both points of view. The majority of ordinary users need to be protected from increasingly sophisticated malware stealing their online banking credentials or other mischief, but power users also need to do whatever they want to do once they've signed a disclaimer
- badsectoracula 5y ago
  > with a legacy voice call functionality that is increasingly irrelevant to anyone who isn't a Boomer. Sadly this requires mobile Internet prices to at least match voice call prices, which is not the case in many (developed or not) parts of the world.
- Aperocky 5y ago
  > pocket computers with a legacy voice call functionality I don't necessarily agree with this, because this is the direction that everything is moving towards. It is so much cheaper to embed an SOC into everything that needs some form of automated/assisted control. Not necessarily a good thing, but that's what is going to happen regardless. Your fridge can become a pocket computer with refrigerating capability - but you'll still see it as a fridge. It's really about how you see and utilize these items.
  - danans 5y ago
    > Your fridge can become a pocket computer with refrigerating capability - Only if you have huge pockets ;)
    - necovek 5y ago
      Or a tiny fridge! :)
      - 5y ago
2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
I envy your chill. We all do need to take a deep breath at times and realize it's truly a first world problem. With that said your truck analogy isn't perfect. Your truck will last as long as you keep it going. That can be 20 years or more. It would be more like having a truck that the doors do not lock anymore after 2 years and you cannot fix that you must buy a new truck if you don't want thieves.
- karlicoss 5y ago
  Also I think the analogy doesn't quite work because a truck is a truck. You can do some customization, you might (or not be) able to change some parts, or being a mechanical engineer you might even be able to repair it or enhance. But it will always fundamentally be a truck. The difference from phones is that a phone is a computer, and as such it has computer's endless potential. For some it can be just a phone, sure. But many people want to use it as an extension of their mind, as knowledge management tool, as a creative tool, etc. The frustrating bit is that is many aspects phones are much nicer and better suited for such tasks than regular desktop computers (think portability, having cameras & sensors etc), yet because of these walled gardens it's much harder for a knowledgeable person to leverage this potential.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
    Exactly. You have almost complete control over it which is exactly why trucks can last so long IRL. If your radio stops working you don't need to buy a new truck.
  - Vrondi 5y ago
    You are displaying your ignorance of trucks. For decades now, all automobiles and trucks have included proprietary computer systems. Some are easy to hack and alter. Some are more expensive/challenging, but people do it. An EV is missing _most_ of the mechanical parts that defined a "truck" for a century, and is basically only four tiny motors, brakes, a computer system, and a battery with wheels. The sole characteristics of "truck" that still remain which Henry Ford would recognize are "has wheels" and "can carry cargo".
marcus_holmes 5y ago
I uninstalled all social media from my phone. I feel so much better. I use it for chat apps, phone calls (usually via chat apps), and occasionally wandering around Imgur when it would be socially awkward to not be on my phone. The rest of the time I've come to appreciate being present in the moment. So yeah, I'm looking at the new generation of Linux phones with interest. If I can run the chat apps in a browser OK, then I think it might work for me.
- ficklepickle 5y ago
  In what kind of situations is it socially awkward to not be on your phone? Genuine question, I'm not great with social stuff.
  - ShroudedNight 5y ago
    When loitering, I've found that phones are a strong signal that distinguishes those uninterested in engaging with the strangers around them, from those that are. When trying to convey one's innocuousness to the wardens of a domain, it can be helpful to use your phone. Related, if in a group, everybody else disengages to be engrossed in their phone, it can be helpful to do the same if one does not want to demonstrate a vulnerable dependency on the generosity of their attention. A lot of awkwardness comes down to self-perception of vulnerability.
    - Vrondi 5y ago
      A paperback book or something can give the same social signal. :)
    - marcus_holmes 5y ago
      this, mainly. Though if everyone else is on their phone, and the crowd is large enough, I find it fascinating to people-watch.
  - marcus_holmes 5y ago
    I'm a middle-aged white guy. In situations where everyone else is 20 years younger and dressed in half the clothing I am, I come across as a total perv if I look at anything except my phone. Or at least that's how it plays out in my head. I do find it useful to sometimes be absorbed in my phone and not aware of what's going on around me. Or at least to have that impression.
RHSeeger 5y ago
But for many people, maybe even most people, they're not just "a phone". They're a multi-purpose tool that comes in the form factor of a mobile phone. Camera, chat, web browser, games, social media, music player, access to nearly the sum total of human knowledge... Treating such as tool as merely "a phone" doesn't make any sense.
- SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
  It’s still a phone actually and colloquially even if I use the Phone App infrequently. The point isn’t what you call it. OP’s point was and I agree that you don’t need to have full control over every device that can possibly run code. Just let it be a device that does its thing. It’s the difference in people that want calm technology vs “power users”. I want the device to exist waiting on my input and even though I have deep knowledge of its internal systems and processes, I don’t care, I just want it to work, solve a problem for me, and I’ll put it away. Go ahead and root your phone to do whatever actively complex thing you need... it’s a tool for me and I personally want the walled garden to prevent it from possibly not working when I need it.
  - 3np 5y ago
    > you don’t need to have full control over every device that can possibly run code I argue that if the device sends data to third parties over radio/internet and/or the manufacturer can remotely push updates that changes the devices behavior then users must have full control. Something like that should become law. Then manufacturers can keep devices locked down as long as they stay out of the surveillance game.
  - RHSeeger 5y ago
    > The point isn’t what you call it. OP’s point was and I agree that you don’t need to have full control over every device that can possibly run code. Just let it be a device that does its thing. That's not how I read the op, who said "It's a phone, use it to call text and guide and browse some internet. That's it". The tone in that reads not like "you don't need to..." it reads like "you should not...", which I disagree with. I rarely use my phone to make calls. I use it as a multi-function tool of tremendous capability. If I wanted a simple flip phone, I would have bought one of those, instead.
blimeymate 5y ago
I don't have or need software in a truck, statist apologist.
detaro 5y ago
But that's not what vendors are selling, and what most people are buying.
dcow 5y ago
What’s wrong with Tesla software?
- harrierpigeon 5y ago
  One thing that comes to mind is that the wiper functionality has to be accessed from the center console touchscreen, and generally when you need it on you need it right then.
  - dcow 5y ago
    Not on the Model 3,Y, it doesn't. You press the button on the left widget behind the steering wheel (the lever/knob you use for your turn signal).
- Aperocky 5y ago
  The ratio of amount and significance of action it takes over my trust in it is too high.
  - dcow 5y ago
    You don't need to use any of the driver assistance features. It’s not doing any of that if you don’t explicitly engage it and sometimes even requires enabling settings toggles.
    - Aperocky 5y ago
      Here's the deal though, when I press the brake pedal in my truck the force is mechanically applied via a hydraulic system to brake pads in the wheels. I've read that Tesla abstracted all that with electric signals coming from a computer, now a proprietary software system sits between my legs input and the brake pads. What if it goes wrong? You can try to convince me that it is an RTOS where signals from the brake pedal have the highest priority. And it seems to be that way, but I'd rather not. I've dealt with enough computer problem to trust some onboard computer that can receive updates from the internet over how I brake.

goda90 5y ago

I haven't tried any Linux phone, but a couple of other alternatives include F(x)tex [0] and Librem 5[1] [0]https://www.fxtec.com/ https://www.fxtec.com/ [1]https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/

twobitshifter 5y ago

I’d be hesitant to jump on another platform unless it has a way of locking down app permissions similar to iOS. I think it’s been shown that the app review process is a farce, but the permissions system like the new app tracking feature is great for privacy and security. If this droid script equivalent were going to start reading my emails watching me through the camera, reading my clipboard, or tracking my real world location, I’d definitely want something that alerted me to that before it happened.

swiley 5y ago
There is a way to do that: don't run untrusted code outside the browser.
joshuaissac 5y ago
> If this droid script equivalent were going to start reading my emails watching me through the camera, reading my clipboard, or tracking my real world location, I’d definitely want something that alerted me to that before it happened. Android has supported permissions since at least Froyo (2010), and these permission requests were made on-demand/runtime rather than pre-install with Marshmallow (2015). So Droidscript would be unable to do any of those things (except reading the clipboard) until you explicitly granted those permissions to the app.

x86ARMsRace 5y ago

> Small numbers (1-3) of stuck or dead pixels are a characteristic of LCD screens. These are normal and should not be considered a defect. Their product line does not really inspire much faith. I can't say I've bought a device in the past 10 years which has dead pixels on the display. To me, this is a defect, given that I can pick up a device, overwrite Windows with Linux, and have a device without dead pixels.

goda90 5y ago
Check out their philosophy[0]. They aren't exactly a company targeting end user consumers. They want to put affordable hardware in the hands of a community of tinkerers. [0]https://www.pine64.org/philosophy/ https://www.pine64.org/philosophy/
- x86ARMsRace 5y ago
  Well, as both an end-user and tinkerer, I'd rather not have to own two devices when I can go out and get one that will cover all my bases.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    Good luck with that. See how long that last, if the current trend continues. Soon you might have to aquire a certified developerversion to unlock your device to tinker with it.
    - x86ARMsRace 5y ago
      Regardless, Pine does not look like a product I'd put my faith in. Perhaps someone else, sure, but Pine inspires no trust from me.
  - 3np 5y ago
    Sounds like Purism Librem5 is more for you then?
    - 5y ago

shadowgovt 5y ago

Most users would prefer a mostly safe experience and gladly give up the option to run arbitrary code on their device for that experience (including arbitrary code they've written). In an all-out "this or that" between allowing IDEs on the Play Store in general and giving the average Play Store user what they want, the IDEs would lose. But it does suck if there is no legitimate way to release an IDE targeted to run on a mobile device via the Google Play Store.

pydry 5y ago
Most users don't really understand what they're giving up when they give up the option to run arbitrary code As with privacy (Facebook privacy settings, cookie boxes), it's easy to bamboozle the general public with complexity and then interpret their confusion and (violated) trust as consent.
- wyattpeak 5y ago
  This is one case though where that lack of understanding leads to the right conclusion. The average user is giving up nothing by losing the right to run arbitrary code, because they never were running arbitrary code.
  - salawat 5y ago
    Which is why it's all the more important to fight against it. Change your point a bit. People are fine with giving up Freedom because they were never really Free in the first place. Circular reasoning is sucha seductive fallacy because it'll fit any use case like a glove.
    - shadowgovt 5y ago
      Tweaking your wording slightly, it's basically the fundamentals of social contract theory. I may have the freedom to bash my neighbor's head with a rock, but they have the same freedom to do the same to me. This isn't as useful as the freedom to sleep at night, so we voluntarily give up this freedom. Reframing to the topic at hand: if the freedom to mutate the code on my mobile device makes it more likely that I'll get pwned by some clever social-engineering than the odds I'll improve my quality of life by tweaking some behaviors on the phone, then it's entirely rational for me to give up that freedom. And, indeed, millions of phone purchasers annually make that decision.

swebs 5y ago

>How good are Pinephones[1]? Are there better alternatives? I like mine, but the ancient CPU needs a serious upgrade. There's also the Librem 5, but it looks like they're heavily back ordered.

arp242 5y ago

The biggest problem with "alternative" platforms is just the lack of app support. I used to have a Nokia N9; great phone. But it didn't support WhatsApp and I was out on the loop on the WhatsApp chat all my other coworkers were in. Then there's things like banking apps, flight check-in apps, food ordering apps, dating apps, etc. etc. Can you do without those? Sure, of course. But if I want to order food where I live then the only option is to use an app. No platform will have any chance of any sort of adoption unless it supports some way of running those apps. There are options here, for example Jolla/Sailfish OS can run Android apps (no idea how well that works in practice; the latest update says it supports "Android 9, and the support for Android 10 is already nicely on the way"). It's a "vendor lock-in" ecosystem that's worse than the Windows lock-in of yesteryear IMO. Since I don't really use my phone all that much I decided to "just use an iPhone" (because it's the only phone that's not huge), even I think they're really horrible.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
skykooler 5y ago
I use Sailfish OS and the android compatibility layer is decent, but not perfect. Some apps have issues understanding the network connectivity state, and photos taken with the Sailfish camera app sometimes don't show up in the Android file selector until the compatibility layer is restarted. Other than that, most apps work fine. (I mainly use it for spotify, slack and maps.)
Calamity 5y ago
Unless PWAs really took off, in which case, you wouldn't need to develop for the custom linux phone - you would just need a supported browser.
- ficklepickle 5y ago
  PWAs will continue to be neglected. They don't allow invasive tracking like native apps, and they don't get a 30% cut. The web is dead. Kids today grow up using the "google app". They did what AOL couldn't. I'd love to be wrong.

okaram 5y ago

It doesn't much matter how good they are, since you can't buy them (their products are usually out of stock for months at a time; right now, they are in pre-sales etc). I like what they are doing, but it is definitely not mainstream products.

johnbrodie 5y ago

I got my Pinephone last week, and have been fairly surprised that it's reasonably usable. I viewed the purchase more as a donation and a signal that there is a market, but I've been using it more and my Android phone less as the days go by. I'd encourage more people here to purchase one, even if just to tinker with. There's so many "I'll buy one when it's ready" replies, but that may never happen if there's no money to fund the companies trying to make an alternative to Android/iOS.

loa_in_ 5y ago

Remember that you can still use Android without Google apps entirely. Depending on how popular your device is, you can retain close to 100% of functionality. You can also use banking apps etc. but methods are in constant flux and it's an ongoing battle

phh 5y ago

Maybe don't scratch Android too fast. Android is opensource, and is technically really great. There is a great opensource community of people that are very capable in this area, and supports already the vast majority of devices in the world. You only need to get rid of Google. Which many custom Android provide. Personally my smartphone is a Pixel 5 (IMO best smartphone currently available that fit in a hand), running Android, without any Google application. I'm very happy with it, and from what I discussed with Pinephone users, it's lightyears more usable than what exists for Pinephone.

johnbrodie 5y ago
More and more functionality is being shoved into Google Play Services. I have a deGoogled phone running Lineage, but even with that, no Google Play Services, and some custom settings (like changing the captive portal URLs), there's still network traffic to Google. Add in relative unknowns like AGPS and the situation gets even worse. I also have no push notifications for most apps, have to keep a static notification so Android doesn't kill apps like my email client, AND still run micro-G for basic functionality to work. Oh, and thanks to SafetyNet there are still apps that refuse to run, even with systemless "undetectable" root. Android itself might be really good, but it's pretty obvious that deGoogled phones have a strong chance of being functionally useless in the future.
- phh 5y ago
  The ratio of available apps of Android without gapps over pinephone is still more than 1000 fold, despite SafetyNet or other reliances on Google. For push notifications, microg does fill the gap, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. UnifiedPush is coming to fill this gap without violating Google's ToC, with self-hosting, and fully FLOSS. Is anything like that coming to PinePhone or Librem? The Google phone-home "features" can be removed, and this is exactly the point of this thread. Android is opensource, you can control this platform however you want, especially removing all connections to Google services. I'm guessing what you're saying is that you installed some custom Android ROM, and expected it to remove any Google tracker, but that's a wrong assumption, most Android ROMs don't target deGoogling. Even my AOSP GSI, with FLOSS variant doesn't target removing Google phone-home features. Why? I don't approve of any data collection on Google's DNS, AGPS, or generate 204, which means it is illegal for them to use it to track me without my consent, and I believe that they are not total outlaws. Running a DNS, AGPS, or even generate 204 reliable infrastructure is hard.

ehsankia 5y ago

> re-embrace the idea of ownership and control of our devices Overall I would agree, but I don't see how this specific example has anything to do with that sentiment. You still have control of your device and can install DroidScript from APK or F-Droid, it was only removed from Play Store, Google's own store. Obviously this is awful for DroidScript themselves, but you as a user didn't really lose any ownership over your phone due to this specific issue.

kllrnohj 5y ago

The platform doesn't give a flying fuck about Droidscript. It's play store that does. So just get serious about using alternate stores, which the platform fully lets you do (f-droid, amazon app store, whatever).

d--b 5y ago

I bought one last week

franga2000 5y ago

Ditching Android is not a good solution - see the application support problem on Linux for why. What we need is a serious and well-funded Android "distro" that lifts Google's dumb restrictions and reimplements Google's proprietary APIs for compatibility. MicroG is doing very well on that second part, but due to lack of funding still has far too many holes.

meltedcapacitor 5y ago
No amount of funding can fix this, at least for all use cases where apps communicate via google services between phone and app HQ. The average bank is not going to send data between bank and user via microg-operated pipes instead of google-operated pipes because 0.1% of their users don't like google.
- franga2000 5y ago
  The average banking app doesn't communicate via google-operated pipes. Basically the only thing I've seen baking apps do via Google (and I've reverse-engineered quite a few) is the SafetyNet check to ensure their bullshit policy about modified devices. Well, that and notifications, but microG already emulates that library and uses Google's servers afaik. If a phone manufacturer started shipping Android phones without GApps and they got popular enough, developers would start being more careful with relying on Google Services. We saw this with Huawei - their phones are reall popular where I live and after tons of complaints from huawei users, a bunch of companies fixed their apps to gracefully handle the lack of Google Play Services.

takeda 5y ago

When Mozilla was trying to get their OS for mobile phones, I think they stepped in too early. Right now it's probably a better time for an alternative.