10 ms·

Surprisingly little alcohol can affect heart rate variability

148 points by patricksamy 5y ago

cutthegrass2 5y ago
The article briefly mentions RHR (resting heart rate) also. Anecdotally of course, but I notice my RHR being ~5 - 8 bpm lower when I abstain from alcohol for a few days.
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  n = 1, but using my oura ring, I can see a diff of 10% higher RHR pmb during my sleep when drinking a single glass of beer after diner. It surprised me a lot.
- blunte 5y ago
  I have worn a Garmin watch with HR monitor for months at a time off and on for the last few years. My resting heart rate while sleeping is typically 64-68 without alcohol and 65-85 after drinking several glasses of wine. There is such a marked difference in RHR in the two scenarios that you could tell if I drank simply by looking at my heart rate chart during the night. Interestingly, I attempted to start running for one month about a year ago. My endurance is poor, but I would run/walk for several kilometers. Within the first week and continuing through that month, my RHR while sleeping was 52-62. Not only was it significantly lower, it took a long time after stopping exercise for the rate to return to what it usually is. I don't know what this all really means, but it is fascinating. Studies or not, I imagine that not drinking + regular cardio exercise is better for long life than the alternative combinations.
  - sjg007 5y ago
    Elite athletes have RHR in the 40s. Exercise improves the heart.
    - clairity 5y ago
      be careful of the inverse inference though. a rhr in the 40s doesn’t necessarily mean you’re in good health. a low rhr could indicate a myriad of other cardiovascular issues (something of a personal concern for me). but contrary to the article, an evening whiskey ~3 times a week (in my experience) seems to be optimal for delivering antiseptic benefits with few/no downsides.
  - tw04 5y ago
    It just means you're out of shape and as you get into shape your HR reflects it. I saw similar after "summer of covid" and now getting back to running every day and limiting alcohol to once a week.
  - chubot 5y ago
    Yup, I also noticed this. I wore a pulse oximeter every night which measures your heart rate, and it jumped from around 60 to 80 just because of alcohol one night. Crazy! That was the biggest effect I saw by far, more than all the sleep apnea variables I was trying to measure! Granted I don't drink often, and metabolize alcohol poorly, but still that's a huge difference. FWIW I'm not out of shape; I commuted 1h / day by bike for over a decade, and was a medically normal weight, which is maybe 20-30th percentile in the population.
  - nradov 5y ago
    I also wear a Garmin watch with HR monitor. Having a couple glasses of wine with dinner doesn't seem to noticeably change my RHR while sleeping. There are probably differences between individuals. An RHR that gets into the 85 range could indicate a cardiac problem. Might want to get that checked.
    - blunte 5y ago
      Probably due to _significant_ quantity of alcohol... and certainly not a good idea.
- fraa-orolo 5y ago
  Since we're talking anecdata anyway, it could be from decreased sleep quality instead of direct causation.
  - antibuddy 5y ago
    That might indeed be a factor; however the processes to get rid of the alcohol (it's toxic after all) might be to blame as well.
- batiudrami 5y ago
  I am fortunate enough to live in a country where we only had a lockdown for about 4 weeks of 2020, and during that time I didn't drink. See if you can see from my sleeping heart rate when that was: https://i.imgur.com/7VlYQ67.png https://i.imgur.com/7VlYQ67.png
  - mannykannot 5y ago
    You appear to be demonstrating the opposite of what is claimed here: your heart-rate variability seems to have decreased when you were not drinking alcohol. When I went back to the article to check this, however, I saw that, while the text says that alchohol has "a negative effect on HRV", and their model explains this, the diagram shows alcohol increasing the HRV. As the text's version of the observed results and its explanation for them are consistent, I assume the diagram is incorrectly labelled. Update: Thanks to everyone for correcting me on what HRV means here.
    - Jtsummers 5y ago
      That image is of GP's heart rate, not heart rate variability.
    - enragedcacti 5y ago
      HRV is not a measure of change in your resting heart rate over time, its a measure of the difference on a per beat basis. Even if your BPM is 60, your heart doesn't beat exactly once a second, it will actually vary in length by some number of milliseconds back and forth. This is what is measured when talking about HRV. It is believed to occur as the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system "fight" over raising and lowering the heartrate. The symbiosis between them lands on a steady rate per minute with fluctuations on a per beat basis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_rate_variability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_rate_variability
    - tcskeptic 5y ago
      Heart rate variability really does not mean variability in heart rate (such as is shown on the graph linked) it is more at the 50-100ms level in change in timing between hear beats. The graph does seem to show a reduction in RHR but does not address HRV (as I understand it)
- mathattack 5y ago
  I’ve been largely alcohol free since the new year. Prior to that I thought alcohol helped me rest. Now even one or two glasses of beer or wine messes up my sleep. The contrast helps me understand it better. Of course this anecdote shouldn’t be construed as robust data....
  - intergalplan 5y ago
    I've been working on switching most drinking for weed—for health reasons. Seriously. It's the best and lowest-side-effect sleep aid I've used. Hopefully it's not secretly doing horrible things to me, but my sleep quality's been amazing since I started to take a little a couple nights a week. Most consistently-decent sleep of my life.
    - JohnWhigham 5y ago
      Weed inhibits REM sleep. You may feel rested, but you're actually harming yourself long term.
      - intergalplan 5y ago
        Damnit. Well, it's that or lots of 5-6 hour nights, or worse. Or bad hangovers and other weird shit from sleeping pills. Maybe time to get a sleep-tracker watch.
        criddell 5y ago
        It might be worth going to a specialist for help.
        WindyCityBrew 5y ago
        Do you drink a lot of coffee or other caffeinated drinks, especially later in the day? I used to think caffeine didn't have much affect on my sleep, until I cut it out. Old habits die hard, but I just drink decaf coffee now and am getting better sleep then I can remember.
blakesterz 5y ago
They close with this: However, a more critical review[0] of the epidemiological data that took into account genetic variants which impact the effect of alcohol intake on longevity shows that the described J-shaped relationship is not as robust as once thought. In conclusion the review simply states: The optimal level of alcohol intake for health and longevity is zero [0] https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/49/3/332/5799035 https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/49/3/332/5799035
- mumblemumble 5y ago
  Great example of the hazards of trying to infer causation from epidemiological datasets.
- serverholic 5y ago
  Epidemiology strikes again! I watch a lot of videos on nutrition and researchers often say that randomized control trials are too expensive so we need to rely on epidemiology despite its flaws. What I find crazy is that nations around the world collaborate and spend billions of dollars building a particle accelerator and yet we can't seem to find money to research something that affects every human every day of their lives.
  - jxy 5y ago
    I guess that is because particles in the accelerator are not alive, so you can accelerate anyway you want. Do you really want to round up a group of seniors and gives them different doses of alcohol and see how much you can accelerate their demise?
    - serverholic 5y ago
      That's a strawman, a randomized control trial does not have to be dangerous. In fact, we already do randomized control trials, they are just expensive and uncommon.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
zabzonk 5y ago
> A healthy HRV reflects a healthy balance between sympathetic and parasympathetic stimulation. How do you know this?
- gnu8 5y ago
  I’m not a cardiologist but this detail seems believable on its face and it is supported by the surrounding statements. Do you disagree with it?
alexslobodnik 5y ago
People can test this for themselves with a common fitness tracker. The Apple Watch records this data. Anecdotally, 1.5 drinks within 5 hours of going to sleep raises resting heart rate by 5%-10%. My friends who have an Apple Watch have similar results. My personal data on HRV and booze is too erratic to draw conclusions.
zonethundery 5y ago
Having a hard time figuring out the implications of this. We know HRV is "good" as a general matter, as orderliness of heart-rate variation is predictive of mortality post-infarction [sorry no cite; read some papers in the 90's w/ convincing plots of instantaneous heart rate vs ihr 10 beats ago]. The linked research shows an increase in power of the middle part of the spectrum (fft of intrabeat heart rate), which is usually linked to respiratory sinus arrhythmia (RSA, or the change in chest cavity pressure while breathing changes your heart rate). Anyway, it's interesting, but maybe the value is in the pathway discussion rather than any specific end-effects on health. Would love to hear from people closer to this topic , or OP's specific interest in the matter.
gregwebs 5y ago
Chris Masterjohn theorizes that alcohol can have a beneficial hormetic (a stressor that you can have positive adaptations to) effect by antagonizing vitamin A and the body adapting to supply more vitamin A. However, he theorizes the maximum beneficial dosage is about 2/3 of a single drink. https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/lite-videos/2018/12/13/is-alcohol-good-for-you https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/lite-videos/2018/12/13/is-alc...
- arethuza 5y ago
  That reminds me in the Inebriati: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIv96reVlAE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIv96reVlAE "We were in the background, gently swaying from side to side"
peter_retief 5y ago
I have stopped drinking alcohol completely for a few years and the benefits are noticeable. Good sleep patterns, higher energy levels, better concentration and emotional stability among the more obvious benefits.
- aksss 5y ago
  My alcohol intake is down to about once a month, and that driven by social/networking type events. But similar results - it feels better to not drink than to drink.
  - Taylor_OD 5y ago
    At the end of the day alcohol is not good for your body. Even if the impact in minimal its always noticeable. Stopping made my life a lot better.
  - peter_retief 5y ago
    I am from a family that considered drinking alcohol "normal" Drink with food at social gatherings and to wind down at the end of the day. My wife suggested that I quit completely, I never realised how it was affecting me until I stopped.
Taylor_OD 5y ago
Booze is not good for you. If you think you are dependent on it or are concerned with the impact it has on your life try stopping. Stopping changed my life greatly.
- filoeleven 5y ago
  What if stopping feels like more effort than it’s worth?
  - bagacrap 5y ago
    If you don't feel like your own health is worth much, maybe try seeing a therapist?
  - Taylor_OD 5y ago
    I don't know you or your situation but if stopping feels like a large effort then it may be worth examining your relationship and possible reliance on alcohol.
1_player 5y ago
OT: "Heart Rate Variability (HRV) gives us an idea about the state of our autonomic nervous system" This answered a big medical doubt I have had for the past week. For ages my heart rate has been at a stable 95-105 resting BPM with very little variability, which is quite high and understandable given my low fitness. I've recently radically changed my diet, and in 2 weeks my resting BPM has gone down to around 65 (!), changing rapidly up to 100 BPM if I move unless I'm staying completely still. I was unsure of what this radical change meant, but apparently whatever I was doing before was very bad for me, and whatever I'm doing now is much better. Given that my diet change has also put my anxiety in remission, it makes sense that there's a strong connection between less overstimulation in the brain and more relaxed circulatory system.
- criddell 5y ago
  Would you mind sharing your diet changes?
  - 1_player 5y ago
    Gone 100% carnivore
    - ulnarkressty 5y ago
      Would very much like to try this for myself, but I would rather look for a more sustainable diet. Do you think it was a matter of missing nutrients, or rather intolerance of some sort to the carbohydrate sources?
      - 1_player 5y ago
        Massive inflammation due to multiple unknown factors, making me even more intolerant to the simplest of food and spices. Carnivore is basically the ultimate elimination diet. Oh yeah, and my brain works noticeably better than it has for the past 15 years. It's 100% reproducible for me, but I just need a lapse of judgement, the wrong food, and it's back to the dark pit of doom and extreme tiredness.
alexfromapex 5y ago
Did they control for electrolyte loss?
Sindrome 5y ago
My Apple watch tells me my heart rate is spiking every time I have more than 5-6 drinks in a night.
carpedimebagjoe 5y ago
When I used to moderately binge some moons ago, I could feel my heart rate was all over the place. And the hangovers the next day didn't feel great either. Redbull vodkas should be called "Deathwish." This might be an unpopular opinion: I like the taste of some alcoholic beverages, but the slight impairment from just one and the risk of a hangover is too much. I'd rather drink club soda and lime than imbibe.
- the_only_law 5y ago
  > This might be an unpopular opinion: I like the taste of some alcoholic beverages, but the slight impairment from just one and the risk of a hangover is too much. I'd rather drink club soda and lime than imbibe. Honestly I feel similar. I don’t mind drinking. Taste isn’t an issue and the immediate effects of intoxication are “fun” but I almost always feel like shit during and after the comedown. The after effects of a hangover are in my option worse than most of drugs I’ve tried.

148 points by patricksamy 5y ago

The article briefly mentions RHR (resting heart rate) also. Anecdotally of course, but I notice my RHR being ~5 - 8 bpm lower when I abstain from alcohol for a few days.

BiteCode_dev 5y ago
n = 1, but using my oura ring, I can see a diff of 10% higher RHR pmb during my sleep when drinking a single glass of beer after diner. It surprised me a lot.
blunte 5y ago
I have worn a Garmin watch with HR monitor for months at a time off and on for the last few years. My resting heart rate while sleeping is typically 64-68 without alcohol and 65-85 after drinking several glasses of wine. There is such a marked difference in RHR in the two scenarios that you could tell if I drank simply by looking at my heart rate chart during the night. Interestingly, I attempted to start running for one month about a year ago. My endurance is poor, but I would run/walk for several kilometers. Within the first week and continuing through that month, my RHR while sleeping was 52-62. Not only was it significantly lower, it took a long time after stopping exercise for the rate to return to what it usually is. I don't know what this all really means, but it is fascinating. Studies or not, I imagine that not drinking + regular cardio exercise is better for long life than the alternative combinations.
- sjg007 5y ago
  Elite athletes have RHR in the 40s. Exercise improves the heart.
  - clairity 5y ago
    be careful of the inverse inference though. a rhr in the 40s doesn’t necessarily mean you’re in good health. a low rhr could indicate a myriad of other cardiovascular issues (something of a personal concern for me). but contrary to the article, an evening whiskey ~3 times a week (in my experience) seems to be optimal for delivering antiseptic benefits with few/no downsides.
- tw04 5y ago
  It just means you're out of shape and as you get into shape your HR reflects it. I saw similar after "summer of covid" and now getting back to running every day and limiting alcohol to once a week.
- chubot 5y ago
  Yup, I also noticed this. I wore a pulse oximeter every night which measures your heart rate, and it jumped from around 60 to 80 just because of alcohol one night. Crazy! That was the biggest effect I saw by far, more than all the sleep apnea variables I was trying to measure! Granted I don't drink often, and metabolize alcohol poorly, but still that's a huge difference. FWIW I'm not out of shape; I commuted 1h / day by bike for over a decade, and was a medically normal weight, which is maybe 20-30th percentile in the population.
- nradov 5y ago
  I also wear a Garmin watch with HR monitor. Having a couple glasses of wine with dinner doesn't seem to noticeably change my RHR while sleeping. There are probably differences between individuals. An RHR that gets into the 85 range could indicate a cardiac problem. Might want to get that checked.
  - blunte 5y ago
    Probably due to _significant_ quantity of alcohol... and certainly not a good idea.
fraa-orolo 5y ago
Since we're talking anecdata anyway, it could be from decreased sleep quality instead of direct causation.
- antibuddy 5y ago
  That might indeed be a factor; however the processes to get rid of the alcohol (it's toxic after all) might be to blame as well.
batiudrami 5y ago
I am fortunate enough to live in a country where we only had a lockdown for about 4 weeks of 2020, and during that time I didn't drink. See if you can see from my sleeping heart rate when that was: https://i.imgur.com/7VlYQ67.png https://i.imgur.com/7VlYQ67.png
- mannykannot 5y ago
  You appear to be demonstrating the opposite of what is claimed here: your heart-rate variability seems to have decreased when you were not drinking alcohol. When I went back to the article to check this, however, I saw that, while the text says that alchohol has "a negative effect on HRV", and their model explains this, the diagram shows alcohol increasing the HRV. As the text's version of the observed results and its explanation for them are consistent, I assume the diagram is incorrectly labelled. Update: Thanks to everyone for correcting me on what HRV means here.
  - Jtsummers 5y ago
    That image is of GP's heart rate, not heart rate variability.
  - enragedcacti 5y ago
    HRV is not a measure of change in your resting heart rate over time, its a measure of the difference on a per beat basis. Even if your BPM is 60, your heart doesn't beat exactly once a second, it will actually vary in length by some number of milliseconds back and forth. This is what is measured when talking about HRV. It is believed to occur as the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system "fight" over raising and lowering the heartrate. The symbiosis between them lands on a steady rate per minute with fluctuations on a per beat basis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_rate_variability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_rate_variability
  - tcskeptic 5y ago
    Heart rate variability really does not mean variability in heart rate (such as is shown on the graph linked) it is more at the 50-100ms level in change in timing between hear beats. The graph does seem to show a reduction in RHR but does not address HRV (as I understand it)
mathattack 5y ago
I’ve been largely alcohol free since the new year. Prior to that I thought alcohol helped me rest. Now even one or two glasses of beer or wine messes up my sleep. The contrast helps me understand it better. Of course this anecdote shouldn’t be construed as robust data....
- intergalplan 5y ago
  I've been working on switching most drinking for weed—for health reasons. Seriously. It's the best and lowest-side-effect sleep aid I've used. Hopefully it's not secretly doing horrible things to me, but my sleep quality's been amazing since I started to take a little a couple nights a week. Most consistently-decent sleep of my life.
  - JohnWhigham 5y ago
    Weed inhibits REM sleep. You may feel rested, but you're actually harming yourself long term.
    - intergalplan 5y ago
      Damnit. Well, it's that or lots of 5-6 hour nights, or worse. Or bad hangovers and other weird shit from sleeping pills. Maybe time to get a sleep-tracker watch.
      - criddell 5y ago
        It might be worth going to a specialist for help.
      - WindyCityBrew 5y ago
        Do you drink a lot of coffee or other caffeinated drinks, especially later in the day? I used to think caffeine didn't have much affect on my sleep, until I cut it out. Old habits die hard, but I just drink decaf coffee now and am getting better sleep then I can remember.

blakesterz 5y ago

They close with this: However, a more critical review[0] of the epidemiological data that took into account genetic variants which impact the effect of alcohol intake on longevity shows that the described J-shaped relationship is not as robust as once thought. In conclusion the review simply states: The optimal level of alcohol intake for health and longevity is zero [0] https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/49/3/332/5799035 https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/49/3/332/5799035

mumblemumble 5y ago
Great example of the hazards of trying to infer causation from epidemiological datasets.
serverholic 5y ago
Epidemiology strikes again! I watch a lot of videos on nutrition and researchers often say that randomized control trials are too expensive so we need to rely on epidemiology despite its flaws. What I find crazy is that nations around the world collaborate and spend billions of dollars building a particle accelerator and yet we can't seem to find money to research something that affects every human every day of their lives.
- jxy 5y ago
  I guess that is because particles in the accelerator are not alive, so you can accelerate anyway you want. Do you really want to round up a group of seniors and gives them different doses of alcohol and see how much you can accelerate their demise?
  - serverholic 5y ago
    That's a strawman, a randomized control trial does not have to be dangerous. In fact, we already do randomized control trials, they are just expensive and uncommon.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

zabzonk 5y ago

> A healthy HRV reflects a healthy balance between sympathetic and parasympathetic stimulation. How do you know this?

gnu8 5y ago
I’m not a cardiologist but this detail seems believable on its face and it is supported by the surrounding statements. Do you disagree with it?

alexslobodnik 5y ago

People can test this for themselves with a common fitness tracker. The Apple Watch records this data. Anecdotally, 1.5 drinks within 5 hours of going to sleep raises resting heart rate by 5%-10%. My friends who have an Apple Watch have similar results. My personal data on HRV and booze is too erratic to draw conclusions.

zonethundery 5y ago

Having a hard time figuring out the implications of this. We know HRV is "good" as a general matter, as orderliness of heart-rate variation is predictive of mortality post-infarction [sorry no cite; read some papers in the 90's w/ convincing plots of instantaneous heart rate vs ihr 10 beats ago]. The linked research shows an increase in power of the middle part of the spectrum (fft of intrabeat heart rate), which is usually linked to respiratory sinus arrhythmia (RSA, or the change in chest cavity pressure while breathing changes your heart rate). Anyway, it's interesting, but maybe the value is in the pathway discussion rather than any specific end-effects on health. Would love to hear from people closer to this topic , or OP's specific interest in the matter.

gregwebs 5y ago

Chris Masterjohn theorizes that alcohol can have a beneficial hormetic (a stressor that you can have positive adaptations to) effect by antagonizing vitamin A and the body adapting to supply more vitamin A. However, he theorizes the maximum beneficial dosage is about 2/3 of a single drink. https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/lite-videos/2018/12/13/is-alcohol-good-for-you https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/lite-videos/2018/12/13/is-alc...

arethuza 5y ago
That reminds me in the Inebriati: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIv96reVlAE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIv96reVlAE "We were in the background, gently swaying from side to side"

peter_retief 5y ago

I have stopped drinking alcohol completely for a few years and the benefits are noticeable. Good sleep patterns, higher energy levels, better concentration and emotional stability among the more obvious benefits.

aksss 5y ago
My alcohol intake is down to about once a month, and that driven by social/networking type events. But similar results - it feels better to not drink than to drink.
- Taylor_OD 5y ago
  At the end of the day alcohol is not good for your body. Even if the impact in minimal its always noticeable. Stopping made my life a lot better.
- peter_retief 5y ago
  I am from a family that considered drinking alcohol "normal" Drink with food at social gatherings and to wind down at the end of the day. My wife suggested that I quit completely, I never realised how it was affecting me until I stopped.

Taylor_OD 5y ago

Booze is not good for you. If you think you are dependent on it or are concerned with the impact it has on your life try stopping. Stopping changed my life greatly.

filoeleven 5y ago
What if stopping feels like more effort than it’s worth?
- bagacrap 5y ago
  If you don't feel like your own health is worth much, maybe try seeing a therapist?
- Taylor_OD 5y ago
  I don't know you or your situation but if stopping feels like a large effort then it may be worth examining your relationship and possible reliance on alcohol.

1_player 5y ago

OT: "Heart Rate Variability (HRV) gives us an idea about the state of our autonomic nervous system" This answered a big medical doubt I have had for the past week. For ages my heart rate has been at a stable 95-105 resting BPM with very little variability, which is quite high and understandable given my low fitness. I've recently radically changed my diet, and in 2 weeks my resting BPM has gone down to around 65 (!), changing rapidly up to 100 BPM if I move unless I'm staying completely still. I was unsure of what this radical change meant, but apparently whatever I was doing before was very bad for me, and whatever I'm doing now is much better. Given that my diet change has also put my anxiety in remission, it makes sense that there's a strong connection between less overstimulation in the brain and more relaxed circulatory system.

criddell 5y ago
Would you mind sharing your diet changes?
- 1_player 5y ago
  Gone 100% carnivore
  - ulnarkressty 5y ago
    Would very much like to try this for myself, but I would rather look for a more sustainable diet. Do you think it was a matter of missing nutrients, or rather intolerance of some sort to the carbohydrate sources?
    - 1_player 5y ago
      Massive inflammation due to multiple unknown factors, making me even more intolerant to the simplest of food and spices. Carnivore is basically the ultimate elimination diet. Oh yeah, and my brain works noticeably better than it has for the past 15 years. It's 100% reproducible for me, but I just need a lapse of judgement, the wrong food, and it's back to the dark pit of doom and extreme tiredness.

alexfromapex 5y ago

Did they control for electrolyte loss?

Sindrome 5y ago

My Apple watch tells me my heart rate is spiking every time I have more than 5-6 drinks in a night.

carpedimebagjoe 5y ago

When I used to moderately binge some moons ago, I could feel my heart rate was all over the place. And the hangovers the next day didn't feel great either. Redbull vodkas should be called "Deathwish." This might be an unpopular opinion: I like the taste of some alcoholic beverages, but the slight impairment from just one and the risk of a hangover is too much. I'd rather drink club soda and lime than imbibe.

the_only_law 5y ago
> This might be an unpopular opinion: I like the taste of some alcoholic beverages, but the slight impairment from just one and the risk of a hangover is too much. I'd rather drink club soda and lime than imbibe. Honestly I feel similar. I don’t mind drinking. Taste isn’t an issue and the immediate effects of intoxication are “fun” but I almost always feel like shit during and after the comedown. The after effects of a hangover are in my option worse than most of drugs I’ve tried.