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Roku says it may lose YouTube TV app after Google made anti-competitive demands

521 points by 1cvmask 6y ago

jakeogh 6y ago
Perhaps it's a good thing? https://www.bitchute.com/video/juDojCOYqIee/ https://www.bitchute.com/video/juDojCOYqIee/
ryeguy_24 6y ago
There are a lot of negative remarks about Roku in here and I’m baffled. I think their user interface and experience have been flawless for the past 5-7 years. I’ve had Roku 3, Roku 4K, and now a TCL Roku TV. The remote control is super snappy. The mainstream apps work really well (Netflix, Hulu, Prime, Plex, YouTube, PBS Kids). I can’t speak to the developer or business side of the company but for a steaming device/platform, I haven’t had a single complaint. I bought an Apple TV 2 years ago for HomeKit hub purposes and to this damn day, I have no idea how to control it with the remote control (does the remote have momentum, is it a cursor? no idea). But my 3 year old has no problem with the Roku. The streaming platform space is fractured for sure, but I think Roku is one of the best there is. So, why shouldn’t they seek revenue from apps? Apple friggin charges 30% for iOS ecosystem no? Roku deserves to be paid for what they have built. As for this Google/Roku issue, this is nothing more than a strike for likely unreasonable or unfair treatment. Google has every right to strike but strikes generally just piss off the customers. So, go ahead and take YouTube off of Roku and Roku can just build a skinned TV browser to view YouTube videos on their website. Maybe the solution is to evolve the TV web browser experience in the same way that we have evolved to mobile friendly sites. Maybe TV friendly sites could eliminate some of these issues. But this opens up the app/web debate and I generally think native app experience is better. At the end of day, Google has increased the advertisement frequency and quantity recently and the experience is beginning to suck. They are making more and more money from advertising so coming off of Roku is just a reduction of eyeballs for them.
- throwaway189262 6y ago
  I loved Roku but they lost me when their latest model would only show regular 1080p on a 2K HDR-10 screen. And yes it supports HDCP and all that crap. Roku just never tested downscaling apparently.
  - ryeguy_24 6y ago
    Never heard of 2K TV but sounds like a pretty narrow issue. I’m guessing it’s not not widespread across a high percentage of their user base? Nonetheless, it may not be the right choice for your specific needs but this comment shouldn’t be extrapolated to the average user.
    - throwaway189262 6y ago
      It's annoying when Windows, Linux, Android, and MacOS will let you play any resolution video you like even when it's above your native resolution. I bet it affects many people with HDR monitors that aren't 4K, there's tons of those. A good percentage of users that hook up Roku to a PC monitor will run into this. Roku only supports HDR at 4K and normally I can just set youtube or whatever to "4K HDR" and OS downscales. Roku won't do it.
SCHiM 6y ago
I don't understand how this isn't common knowledge: smart TVs are universally bad. This was figured out years ago. Just get a good screen + hdmi/dvi port and attach your laptop. No ads on your screensaver, no screen tracking that otherwise wouldn't happen, it's fast, it's 100% compatible with all platforms and media (if not legally, then through torrents). If your laptop works, and your screen works, then this setup works. What's the downside?
- madeofpalk 6y ago
  i don't want to have to use a pc when i watch tv
kazinator 6y ago
I don't understand why anyone would still be interested in a Roku streamer or TV in 2021.
annoyingnoob 6y ago
Two advertising companies fighting over peanuts. I don't support either party here. Roku is becoming more useless over time and that has nothing to do with Google.
- annoyingnoob 6y ago
  It'd be nice if you mentioned why when you downvote. This really is 2 advertisers fighting over which one gets your search and where it goes - and both claim they are right and doing it for their users. Roku has made it pretty clear that they want to advertise to you but they could care less to make something that works and does more than spy on you and deliver ads. My next device won't be from Roku or Google.
s3r3nity 6y ago
> Roku alleges Google has asked it to favor YouTube music results from voice commands made on the Roku remote while the YouTube app is open, even if the user's music preference is set to default to another music app, like Pandora. > Roku says Google has threatened to require Roku to use certain chip sets or memory cards that would force Roku to increase the price of its hardware product, which competes directly with Google's Chromecast. That's just straight evil - overriding user preferences to favor your own products... Some growth PM and/or business head is trying way too hard to hit their OKRs. I'd be surprised if Google could defend this in court.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  > Roku alleges Google has asked it to favor YouTube music results from voice commands made on the Roku remote while the YouTube app is open, even if the user's music preference is set to default to another music app, like Pandora. That's the behavior I would expect from a full screen app. ie, if I issue a command in a full screen app for the command to be interpreted in the context of that app.
  - gsich 6y ago
    Make it configurable and everyone is happy.
    - resizeitplz 6y ago
      It is configurable. Google is asking Roku to override the user's chosen configuration.
      - pythonaut_16 6y ago
        He's clearly suggesting making context aware search an option. "When searching within an app, favor results from that app" vs "When searching within an app always favor my default"
        6y ago
aklemm 6y ago
I'm just about sick of YouTube and YouTube TV not playing well with whatever device I've decided on. First it was YouTube and the Firestick, now it's YouTube TV and Roku. Frankly, how did Google end up with a good TV service? I'd rather not be relying on Google for TV streaming.
- int_19h 6y ago
  First it was Windows Phone, where Google refused to make an official app for it, and then intentionally killed Microsoft's unofficial app.
- sniperjzp 6y ago
  First, you can play YouTube without any problem on Firestick, they made the change 2 years ago. Second, you should give the new Chromecast device a try, it's far much better than Roku. Third, Google is asking Roku to support VP9, which is a much superior video coding format, I don't see any issue with this ask.
  - efdee 6y ago
    Either YouTube requires VP9 and then everybody has to implement it, or it allows other codecs and leaves Roku alone. What's the point of singling them out?
    - SR2Z 6y ago
      Because VP9 is much, much cheaper for: - Google, who doesn't have to pay royalties - Google and consumers, who can enjoy better compression and lower bandwidth - Consumers, who can enjoy a much more mainstream video encoding format in not just YT but pretty much every app. Google doesn't want to write off 45% of the set-top market right away, but at the same time it's 100% in the right to demand Roku support modern royalty-free codecs going forward. Roku fights pretty much everybody nowadays and as someone who's been dealing with full-screen ads and missing apps on my $1000 TV, I have no sympathy for Roku whining about needing to support a modern codec.
ericra 6y ago
I have always used a Roku for TV streaming, but things like this are making it more difficult. Something similar happened with Amazon and the Twitch app for Roku. Amazon obviously wants you to use a Fire product to access Twitch, and they completely removed support for the Twitch app for Roku. Even the unofficial Twitch app shut down shortly after this, leaving no reasonable way to access Twitch content from a Roku. If the Youtube app and available alternatives get removed as well, I'll basically be forced into another device since Twitch and Youtube offer a large percentage of the content I watch. I can only hope that some future legislation or anti-trust lawsuit makes it more difficult for these companies to force you into buying their specific hardware to access these services, but I am not hopeful.
- mey 6y ago
  I replaced my roku with an nvidia shield over the twitch issue.
- enragedcacti 6y ago
  Twitch on Roku is really frustrating. The unofficial app worked perfectly for me and then the dev faced legal action from Amazon. One thing I have found is that using the "Roku Stream Tester" dev tool you can push a twitch stream to your TV to play it. You can use this site to get the .m3u8 URL for the stream at whatever res you want: https://pwn.sh/tools/getstream.html https://pwn.sh/tools/getstream.html Then use this tool with your Roku in dev mode: http://devtools.web.roku.com/stream_tester/html/ http://devtools.web.roku.com/stream_tester/html/ This is a giant pain in the ass obviously but it does work if you just want to use it occasionally. The Stream Tester works through a REST API so theoretically someone could write a browser plugin or app to automate all of this. edit: a fun side affect of this is that the stream plays better than it ever did in the official twitch app or even on my Non-4k fire TV. 60fps is really smooth whereas on the FireTV or the Twitch app for Roku it would hitch and stutter occasionally
dubcanada 6y ago
I'm surprised this is the first time someone tried to push their weight and try and get what they want. But it does seem to be a baseless claim, we have no idea actually what was asked. I think it's a little too early to jump onboard any side.
- twobitshifter 6y ago
  Roku is not a completely innocent content portal. Roku notably sells buttons on its remotes tied to services you may not even use. A consumer friendly remote would have configurable buttons, so they’re not against favoriting certain apps over others. Within Roku itself you’ll get sidebar ads for certain video services. Roku is happy to prioritize your app but only if you pay for it.
  - intergalplan 6y ago
    Interestingly, there are 3rd-party remotes that contain different "suggested" channels. I've got one with six of those buttons, which is actually kinda nice because 5/6 are channels I use. I wouldn't be surprised if there exist programmable remotes that allow custom launchers, at least for the set of all channels Roku has ever had on their own buttons (they must be giving each app they put on there a unique, or at least rarely-recycled, code, since remotes with different promoted channels on them do work as expected on Rokus other than the one they came with). Though, yes, it would be nice if Roku let the user program those buttons on stock remotes.
- criddell 6y ago
  It's not the first time. It took a while for HBO Max to show up on Roku because both sides were playing hardball.
post_break 6y ago
If this is true, could you imagine if Google tried to pull this on Apple? Making YouTube music show up when using the siri remote. These allegations are serious, and if Roku isn't lying it's straight up crazy.
- deckard1 6y ago
  Apple and Google already have a symbiotic anti-competitive relationship on the iPhone worth billions of dollars. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/25/technology/apple-google-search-antitrust.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/25/technology/apple-google-s... Only reason Google can't bully Apple is because Apple is too big.
- vineyardmike 6y ago
  They could never pull this on Apple. Apple has too much user base support leverage and is too willing to expunge apps that don’t play along.
- enos_feedler 6y ago
  Serious they may be, but it's just a business deal. They can take it or leave it.
- coldacid 6y ago
  Apple would laugh and tell Google to fuck off, right before removing every app for iOS that even contacts any Google service. They're about the only company out there with the clout and cash to give Google the finger without having to go to the courts (legal and/or public opinion) to do it.
  - izacus 6y ago
    Apple does no such thing in case of search in Safari, so why are you making this stuff up? Not too mention Apple puts the same kind of requirements on developers and apps on their own tvOS platform - including UX behaviours and format support.
  - tinus_hn 6y ago
jsnell 6y ago
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26942227 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26942227 (But this article seems to have a lot more details)
honksillet 6y ago
I guess this is a good a place as any to say that the video quality on youtubeTV is atrocious. I was shocked when I watch a live NFL game on the Roku amazon prime app. Also ytTV has just about double in price in less than 3 years. Roku has some issues too. Namely, it autodownloads a new random app about once a week so Im constant deleting apps from my home page. Lastly, this sounds a lot like, "Comcast Cale users might lose the ESPN Chanel ...". I'm pretty sick of all these xorporations.
- marrone12 6y ago
  The quality is really bad. Terrible compression with blocky artifacts and poor black levels. My pirate IPTV service has significantly better image quality.
- intergalplan 6y ago
  > Roku has some issues too. Namely, it autodownloads a new random app about once a week so Im constant deleting apps from my home page. WTF? New random apps about once a week? I've never seen this. Have multiple Roku boxes and a couple TVs with integrated Roku. Using them for years. Maybe there's some kind of "suggest new channels to me" checkbox you've got checked in account preferences?
NeuNeurosis 6y ago
I am in no way on Google's side on this but I am taking this with a grain of salt since I am sure that Roku is quite aware of the leverage this allegation could bring against Google with the on going anti-trust suite that is being brought against them.
daemonhunter 6y ago
So this is for the YoutubeTV and not the Youtube app right?
- kschwab 6y ago
  Yes, that's correct. Also, separately, Google is sunsetting the "Google Play Movies & TV app" and folding that into the YouTube (not YouTubeTV) app.
wmf 6y ago
Roku is similarly evil towards smaller apps, like demanding a cut of app revenue after the app gets a large user base.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ipaddr 6y ago
  Would love to read more information on this. Private tv channels are constantly under attack.
- jlund-molfese 6y ago
  What percentage does Roku take? I wasn't aware that they were in the same rent-seeking game as the other app stores. They do talk about their "Platform Revenue," but it seems that's mostly generated from ads.
  - wmf 6y ago
    AFAIK they're trying to take 30% of revenue from every app, even from ads that are internal to the app. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-18/nbc-threatens-to-black-out-apps-on-roku-in-dispute-over-peacock https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-18/nbc-threa... https://www.cordcuttersnews.com/rokus-recent-fight-with-fox-was-over-ads-the-roku-channel/ https://www.cordcuttersnews.com/rokus-recent-fight-with-fox-...
caturopath 6y ago
I've never used Roku voice commands. Is it unambiguous that a command is for music? Or "Stevie Wonder interview" and "Stevie Wonder Superstition" be interchangeable, with the first going to a Youtube vid and the second playing in Pandora?
ipaddr 6y ago
Next they will ask to be automatically loaded during startup. Get rid of the youtube app. It's low quality videos with ads when I use roku I use it for a better experience.
stephengoodwin 6y ago
Welp, I specifically bought a Roku device a few months ago just to use YouTube. I ran into major issues using Fire TV's YouTube app. The app would fail to get past the initial loading screen and hang forever. It would typically require 2-3 device restarts to work again, and even then it would only work temporarily. I tried completely resetting my Fire TV, relogging in, etc but never managed to get it to work properly). YouTube is the only app I've had issues with on Fire TV. Google also discontinued YouTube's great web browser experience, which was almost identical to the app, that you could load in Fire TV's web browser.
- GloriousKoji 6y ago
  I did the same thing, youtube recently dropped support for the older AppleTV and I had no interest in shelling out extra money for 4k or the option to play games i'm never going to play. This TV set-top box arms race is so stupid. The smart TV apps stopped working so I got an AppleTV. That stopped working so I got a Roku. When that stops working I guess i'll just go the full PC route with a NUC and a nice interface like Kodi.
- myko 6y ago
  Nvidia Shield and AppleTV are both quite good and the YouTube app works great on them
- morganvachon 6y ago
  > Welp, I specifically bought a Roku device a few months ago just to use YouTube. We have Rokus (a 4K Ultra in the living room and a TCL Roku TV in the bedroom), as well as a 4K Chromecast, and until we got the Roku Ultra we had a Nvidia Shield TV. We keep more than one type of device specifically because it is inevitable that a provider (Roku, Amazon, Google) will drop a service we enjoy. This actually happened with the Shield which is why we replaced it with a Roku; it was no longer working with Emby at all, and it was flaking out on certain other services. It could have been just a case of bad hardware but it was flawless for two years straight until one by one services stopped working on it. This is also why I have a Mac, a couple of Windows PCs, a Linux workstation, and a BSD laptop. When one of the above can't do something, one of the others can.
cirenehc 6y ago
> Roku alleges Google has asked it to favor YouTube music results from voice commands made on the Roku remote while the YouTube app is open, even if the user's music preference is set to default to another music app, like Pandora. How else do you use voice search for a music video on Youtube? If I open youtube and do a voice search. I'm expecting the search to be constrained to the app.
- pkulak 6y ago
  It sounds to me like they want the YouTube Music app to open when you search for a song on the YouTube app. Those are two entirely different apps, with different content, experiences, etc. It just so happens that Google named them the same, probably so they could more easily force integrations like this.
  - p_j_w 6y ago
    At least on my Nvidia shield, this is not the case. YouTube Music is part of the YouTube app.
  - judge2020 6y ago
    As said in the sibling comment, Google has combined all of their TV apps besides YTTV into the YouTube app. Music/Movies/Regular videos are all via that app. OP is saying "if i'm in an app, I want voice search to focus that app's search bar".
- djrogers 6y ago
  This sounds like the user is in Youtube, then says 'Play some Beyonce'. In this scenario, I'd expect some Lemonade from my default music app, not Youtube...
calderwoodra 6y ago
Either the journalist has interpreted Roku's claims incorrectly, or Roku is spreading falsehoods. It's a very common practice for streaming services to make crazy demands about the devices they're on. Roku[1], Google TV[2] and Firesticks[3] all have Netflix buttons on the remote not because they wanted them there, but because Netflix forces them to with the threat that they will blacklist their device. And inevitably, all devices comply because they know they won't be able to sell the product without Netflix support. [1] https://cigars.roku.com/v1/http%3A%2F%2Fimage.roku.com%2Fw%2Frapid%2Fimages%2Fpdp-carousel-items%2F8c96f4a9-8d7e-4351-aa8e-0137ff08d862.png https://cigars.roku.com/v1/http%3A%2F%2Fimage.roku.com%2Fw%2... [2] https://external-preview.redd.it/9itjeCYci2NPP7Vxr9onH_DFv7EsV0aOQJiJvA1IO3E.png?auto=webp&s=d68f7274ec2f635ddc305dc2b1ba9891e8c2848a https://external-preview.redd.it/9itjeCYci2NPP7Vxr9onH_DFv7E... [3] https://i.gadgets360cdn.com/large/amazon_fire_tv_stick_alexa_voice_remote_3rd_generation_image_1616749963892.jpg?downsize=950:*&output-quality=80 https://i.gadgets360cdn.com/large/amazon_fire_tv_stick_alexa...
- wmf 6y ago
  I agree that everybody involved is evil but we're still allowed to have opinions about that. Roku's evil and Google's evil don't necessarily cancel out.
- inetknght 6y ago
  > It's a very common practice for streaming services to make crazy demands about the devices they're on That doesn't make it any less anti-competitive
  - Spivak 6y ago
    If it was “you must have a Netflix button and no others” I could see the argument but the demand for a particular user experience isn’t anticompetitive automatically. Company with leverage others might not have using that leverage isn’t something we vilify in general.
    - bogwog 6y ago
      If you're willfully ignorant of the situation, then sure. Otherwise, using leverage to favor your own product over competitors despite user preference is textbook anti-competitive behavior, almost comically so: Not only does it unfairly disadvantage competitors, but it also robs consumers of choice (by ignoring their preferences). I would love to see one of the meetings that lead to absurdly unethical and borderline/outright illegal decisions like this; did anyone bother to bring it up? Did the person that brought it up get the silent treatment? Were they no longer invited to lunch? Does everyone just understand that those topics are off limits? Or do these people seriously not care because they know they can get away with it?
awb 6y ago
Surprising with so many live TV competitors in a similar price range to YouTubeTV like Hulu and Fubo that are also on Roku.
MuffinFlavored 6y ago
This isn't that big of a deal to me because I could still use the YouTube TV app from my iPhone and then just "cast" it to the Roku which is acting as a "cast client". And even then, that's only at my friend's house where their TV is too old to have built in "smart TV / cast to me" functionality. Roku is dope but this might not be as big of a deal as it seems.
f430 6y ago
"Don't be Evil" - Larry Page
rootsudo 6y ago
Nothing of value loss, the youtube app on Roku is very glitchy and the entire ecosystem of Roku is very ad supported and user hostile. I would expect voice commands within the youtube app to stay within youtube. I am 50/50 on youtube music/youtube, but youtube app includes music so it's a general hard to decipher request but genereally if I want to voice search while I'm in youtube, I want it to stay in youtube. I don't understand why people flock to it/use it.
- jahlove 6y ago
  This is about the "Youtube TV" app, not the "Youtube" app.
CodeWriter23 6y ago
IMO Roku should make a rokutube site and wait until Google decides to abandon ChromeCast and comes crawling back.
- mastrsushi 6y ago
  I think this post is sarcastic, but not entirely sure.
taurath 6y ago
Roku makes insane demands of its video providers. So does every large platform company. Google is awful too, but this is like the pot calling the kettle black.
- adrr 6y ago
  They make all their money as being a service provider. That’s why they require content providers to use their platform and to rev share subscription and purchases made on the Roku platform. They aren’t a hardware company.
cosmotic 6y ago
One thing is clear: Google either doesn't understand users at all or they are lying when they say this is for the user.
the_lonely_road 6y ago
This kind of tactic works. I have 3 rokus in a box collecting dust and two brand new Fire sticks that replaced them. I didn't want to do this but 85% of my streaming time is spent on Twitch.tv and I wasn't able to use my Roku's to stream it anymore.
- LocalH 6y ago
  Look into "twoku"
- colordrops 6y ago
  Why is Twitch not on Roku?
  - driverdan 6y ago
    Because Amazon is equally anti-competitive and wants people to use Fire devices.
- echelon 6y ago
  Out of curiosity, who do you watch on Twitch? How do you find interesting content?
  - the_lonely_road 6y ago
    GrandVice8 is 95% of my stream consumption but my followed list online right now is: TimTheTatman DrLupo dogdog DQA_TFT Becca Break TidesofTime ibiza Kaymind smaceTRON Myles_Away Cheesewiz DeliciousMilkGG It depends on how you define interesting content of course. For me that is "Tactical or strategic games with a significant enough RNG component to be classified as 'Controlling the Chaos' (think Poker, not Chess) and which have a lively leaderboard. I enjoy watching the competition for Rank #1 and I enjoy competing to see how high I can get. My current favorite game is Team Fight Tactics (Riot Games the maker of league of legends auto battler). You can find the leaderboards here: https://lolchess.gg/leaderboards?hl=en-US https://lolchess.gg/leaderboards?hl=en-US And my all time highest rank achieved was #540/1,250,000 in North America (not bad at all for an executive and father of a toddler). Pretty much all of the guys competing for rank #1 will also be streamers so finding content is as easy as googling their name from the leaderboard + twitch. If thats not your cup of tea, probably the best way would be to choose twitch's browse option and just watch the most popular streamers in each game for a few minutes to see if you are into their content. Some are informative, some are looking to appeal to 13 year olds, some are chasing some goal, etc.
taylodl 6y ago
I currently have YouTube TV I access via my Apple TV. The nice thing about internet cable is how quickly you can switch providers. If Google or Apple get into a tiff or whatever then I can switch to Fubo and not miss a beat. Many people have mentioned Fubo as an alternative and frankly it looks pretty good. The biggest reason I watch TV is for sports. Fubo and YouTube TV seem similarly matched in that regard. As consumers we should all be glad we have choices.
beastman82 6y ago
I can't recommend the nvidia shield highly enough as an alternative to Roku
- SixDouble5321 6y ago
  Can you tell a little about what are hits and misses about the shield, and which one you own?
- bobsmooth 6y ago
  And it's powerful enough to be an emulation machine.
ta9999 6y ago
Who the hell would pay google for youtube? Anything worth watching is on patreon so you can just watch it there if you want to pay for something without dealing with all of Google's crap.
jpollock 6y ago
Roku wants to be an app store, and it wants a cut of both the subscription fee and the ad inventory: "Roku's standard terms for partner channels include 20% of subscription fees and 30% of ad inventory" For services that bundle other people's content that's likely to be a problem (see Spotify and Apple). https://popculture.com/streaming/news/roku-founder-reveals-why-hbo-max-peacock-arent-available/ https://popculture.com/streaming/news/roku-founder-reveals-w...
- judge2020 6y ago
  Just as 'everybody wants to rule the world', every company wants to be FAANG so they'll attack FAANG until they're on top.
jonnycomputer 6y ago
Google calls the accusation baseless. But I'd bet there would be documentation if it were true ..
- jonnycomputer 6y ago
  Google calls the accusation baseless. But it is quite reasonable to assume that a lot of documentation is produced during the course of such negotiation, so I would expect there to be some pertaining to the items at issue. Am I wrong?
StevePerkins 6y ago
Ehh... I would wager on Roku being more dug-in here. For them, control over their hardware is an existential concern. For Google, streaming television is one of their many dalliances that may or not still be active 5 years from now. Every television that I've bought over the past 5-10 years has Roku built into it. I know that some people prefer to plug in Amazon devices instead, and that's perfectly fine (not that Amazon is any "less evil" of a company than Google or Roku). But I use Roku's platform because it's usually the hardware default, and I like the UI well enough. I'm already pissed that Google has raised their prices to the point where I no longer save any money compared to what I used to pay for cable+internet. And then dropped sports coverage for my local baseball team anyway. If YouTube TV disappears from Roku's platform, then I'll just sign up for Hulu or whatever 5 minutes later. Or fuck it, I might just go back to cable. These over-the-top, "skinny bundles" have been a bait and switch in practice.
- madoublet 6y ago
  Same here. Except for the cable part. I really like Google TV but, I am not going to buy new hardware for it. Hulu is good enough, plus they have some good exclusives coming back.
etempleton 6y ago
HBO Max was delayed in appearing on Roku because of negotiation breakdowns. In the case HBO it was Roku that seemed to have the demands. They are looking at revenue anywhere they can, but if their position weakens look for Google, ATT, and others to simply forgo working with them. I think Roku is in a perilous position in general. They generated a lot of buzz on Wallstreet with their high user counts. They also purchased a DSP to get more into the advertising game. However they are at risk of being disrupted. They do not offer much that is unique and have largely gained and held market position by being the cheapest and easiest to use. Cheap Android TV devices are starting to compete with them on price and tv manufacturers have mostly chosen to create and maintain their own ecosystems. Unless they make some big strategic maneuvers I see them slowly being squeezed out like Tivo.
- BeetleB 6y ago
  I think we probably hang out in different crowds. I have a Chromecast, and various consoles. Roku is still the best overall (despite shortcomings). Everyone I know who bought a Roku prefers it to all the other options. Can anyone tell me what other streaming devices have over Roku? What I need: - A real remote. Not going to use my phone to control things. - Good search. When I search, I want results from most of the apps - so I can find out which ones have the show/movie I'm looking for (with an indication of price). - Good support from all the major services: Youtube, PBS, Plex, Netflix, all the major TV channels (HGTV, ABC, CBS, etc). - Easy to install my own app without militant control from the manufacturer. - Affordable ($25-35), and not integrated into my TV. - Can use in hotels/motels - this is critical (Roku generally wins big here - Chromecast totally fails).
  - pa7ch 6y ago
    I think OP had the answer. Android TV beats its because you don't think about buying a Roku when your TV comes with something equivalent.
    - BeetleB 6y ago
      That's no use for people who don't have it (i.e. everyone I know). Those that do have smart TVs use Rokus, but that may be because their TVs are older (likely not Android). And in any case, it doesn't check all the boxes - particularly the one about "use in motels/hotels when I travel"
throwaway9_3 6y ago
This wouldn't be the first time Google uses their market power to gain an unfair advantage in the TV space. On the TV Device Maker side they don't allow manufacturers to use alternatives to Android TV (such as FireTV) or they threaten to kick them out of Android Mobile. See https://www.protocol.com/google-android-amazon-fire-tv https://www.protocol.com/google-android-amazon-fire-tv
crazypython 6y ago
Maybe they could use a FOSS YouTube client like Nvidious. Or even install a freedom-respecting and open source decentralized solution such as Odysee (LBRY) or PeerTube, and ask people to post there.
VWWHFSfQ 6y ago
I got rid of my Roku when they pulled the Spectrum TV app.
CivBase 6y ago
Stuff like this is why "general computing" devices should (and will hopefully) never die. I just plug my laptop into my TV via HDMI and I can stream video, browse the web, play games, and do whatever. That solution has served me well for a decade now and I have zero interest in smart TV software, Roku, Chromecast, Fire Stick, Apple TV, or any of that crap.
rajivjain 6y ago
This is why we as users should choose our platforms carefully. This spat between Roku and Google is ultimately all about $$$ generated with 'monetizing' our habits and data. Ad infested platforms like Roku will continually try and push for larger share of the pie. Whereas, Google will continue pushing for more data. They both will win. Win at our expense. Not thanks, I would rather stay with my Apple TV and have a modicum of control over my privacy, even though it's more expensive piece of hardware to buy.
- Cd00d 6y ago
  Can you use Prime Video?
jrochkind1 6y ago
> such as being asked to favor Google products in Roku search results. Anyone else find it alarming that google has no problem with strong-arming partners into prefering their search results? Kinda makes you wonder about what determines Google's own search results, right? Does Google really want us wondering that?
videoborat 6y ago
Also featured here: https://www.protocol.com/youtube-tv-roku-issues https://www.protocol.com/youtube-tv-roku-issues The article raises an interesting point. Ultimately, Googles pushing of 'royalty-free' AV1 for the greater good is just shifting costs to device makers and implementors that have to pay increased engineering and build cost instead of royalties. if it turns out to really be royalty-free that is...
ohazi 6y ago
Roku should just drop them. The YouTube experience on Google's Roku app is hot garbage compared to a web browser with an ad blocker.
- limeblack 6y ago
  My parents(grandparents also) don't mind working a Roku. The same can not be said for a web browser on the TV.
indymike 6y ago
I've had Roku, Chromecasts, a couple different LG and Samsung smartTVs, and the best, far and away was the cheap TCL Roku TV. Why? Because everyone in the family could use it, and there were hundreds of streaming providers available. Chromecasts are easy, but require another device to work. The Roku TV? You could operate it from the buttons on the TV if you lost the remote (a regular occurrence with 7 people in the house)... and it was fine. So... what about the YouTube app? It was great on Roku.
- judge2020 6y ago
  I'm still astonished by how much LG and Samsung are able to cripple their own devices in the performance department. It's like they bought the cheapest chip/mainboard that checked the box 'smooth 30fps 4k hdr'.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    Because that’s what consumers want. Many would rather pay $500 for the cheapest chip/mainboard, but the $1,500 TVs have always been available.
mastrsushi 6y ago
Imagine how excited you would've felt if you won a Roku in 2021. You'd probably try to sell it. Or maybe you'd give it to your grandmother, unless you already gave her one way back in 2012. The bigger picture is that streaming has become such an expected, basic, embedded functionality and Roku along with other dependent companies failed to adapt. Yes, Google is in a consistent, self denying state of being evil, but Roku has become the Blackberry of stream boxes. They haven't done anything innovative in years. I won't be surprised if they will be forever flooded by a storm of no-name Chinese Linux/Java powered stream boxes. Obviously these devices don't provide the same user experience, but they definitely reflect Roku's mediocrity. Roku seems to be playing victim.
synergy20 6y ago
so I have a firetv stick, a chromecast, both play youtube hulu disney+ etc, they're each like $30~$40 dollars, I thus have never had the need to buy a Roku stick, why do I need one and why does this youtube-tv-app matter?

521 points by 1cvmask 6y ago

Perhaps it's a good thing? https://www.bitchute.com/video/juDojCOYqIee/ https://www.bitchute.com/video/juDojCOYqIee/

There are a lot of negative remarks about Roku in here and I’m baffled. I think their user interface and experience have been flawless for the past 5-7 years. I’ve had Roku 3, Roku 4K, and now a TCL Roku TV. The remote control is super snappy. The mainstream apps work really well (Netflix, Hulu, Prime, Plex, YouTube, PBS Kids). I can’t speak to the developer or business side of the company but for a steaming device/platform, I haven’t had a single complaint. I bought an Apple TV 2 years ago for HomeKit hub purposes and to this damn day, I have no idea how to control it with the remote control (does the remote have momentum, is it a cursor? no idea). But my 3 year old has no problem with the Roku. The streaming platform space is fractured for sure, but I think Roku is one of the best there is. So, why shouldn’t they seek revenue from apps? Apple friggin charges 30% for iOS ecosystem no? Roku deserves to be paid for what they have built. As for this Google/Roku issue, this is nothing more than a strike for likely unreasonable or unfair treatment. Google has every right to strike but strikes generally just piss off the customers. So, go ahead and take YouTube off of Roku and Roku can just build a skinned TV browser to view YouTube videos on their website. Maybe the solution is to evolve the TV web browser experience in the same way that we have evolved to mobile friendly sites. Maybe TV friendly sites could eliminate some of these issues. But this opens up the app/web debate and I generally think native app experience is better. At the end of day, Google has increased the advertisement frequency and quantity recently and the experience is beginning to suck. They are making more and more money from advertising so coming off of Roku is just a reduction of eyeballs for them.

throwaway189262 6y ago
I loved Roku but they lost me when their latest model would only show regular 1080p on a 2K HDR-10 screen. And yes it supports HDCP and all that crap. Roku just never tested downscaling apparently.
- ryeguy_24 6y ago
  Never heard of 2K TV but sounds like a pretty narrow issue. I’m guessing it’s not not widespread across a high percentage of their user base? Nonetheless, it may not be the right choice for your specific needs but this comment shouldn’t be extrapolated to the average user.
  - throwaway189262 6y ago
    It's annoying when Windows, Linux, Android, and MacOS will let you play any resolution video you like even when it's above your native resolution. I bet it affects many people with HDR monitors that aren't 4K, there's tons of those. A good percentage of users that hook up Roku to a PC monitor will run into this. Roku only supports HDR at 4K and normally I can just set youtube or whatever to "4K HDR" and OS downscales. Roku won't do it.

SCHiM 6y ago

I don't understand how this isn't common knowledge: smart TVs are universally bad. This was figured out years ago. Just get a good screen + hdmi/dvi port and attach your laptop. No ads on your screensaver, no screen tracking that otherwise wouldn't happen, it's fast, it's 100% compatible with all platforms and media (if not legally, then through torrents). If your laptop works, and your screen works, then this setup works. What's the downside?

madeofpalk 6y ago
i don't want to have to use a pc when i watch tv

kazinator 6y ago

I don't understand why anyone would still be interested in a Roku streamer or TV in 2021.

annoyingnoob 6y ago

Two advertising companies fighting over peanuts. I don't support either party here. Roku is becoming more useless over time and that has nothing to do with Google.

annoyingnoob 6y ago
It'd be nice if you mentioned why when you downvote. This really is 2 advertisers fighting over which one gets your search and where it goes - and both claim they are right and doing it for their users. Roku has made it pretty clear that they want to advertise to you but they could care less to make something that works and does more than spy on you and deliver ads. My next device won't be from Roku or Google.

s3r3nity 6y ago

> Roku alleges Google has asked it to favor YouTube music results from voice commands made on the Roku remote while the YouTube app is open, even if the user's music preference is set to default to another music app, like Pandora. > Roku says Google has threatened to require Roku to use certain chip sets or memory cards that would force Roku to increase the price of its hardware product, which competes directly with Google's Chromecast. That's just straight evil - overriding user preferences to favor your own products... Some growth PM and/or business head is trying way too hard to hit their OKRs. I'd be surprised if Google could defend this in court.

908B64B197 6y ago
> Roku alleges Google has asked it to favor YouTube music results from voice commands made on the Roku remote while the YouTube app is open, even if the user's music preference is set to default to another music app, like Pandora. That's the behavior I would expect from a full screen app. ie, if I issue a command in a full screen app for the command to be interpreted in the context of that app.
- gsich 6y ago
  Make it configurable and everyone is happy.
  - resizeitplz 6y ago
    It is configurable. Google is asking Roku to override the user's chosen configuration.
    - pythonaut_16 6y ago
      He's clearly suggesting making context aware search an option. "When searching within an app, favor results from that app" vs "When searching within an app always favor my default"
      - 6y ago

aklemm 6y ago

I'm just about sick of YouTube and YouTube TV not playing well with whatever device I've decided on. First it was YouTube and the Firestick, now it's YouTube TV and Roku. Frankly, how did Google end up with a good TV service? I'd rather not be relying on Google for TV streaming.

int_19h 6y ago
First it was Windows Phone, where Google refused to make an official app for it, and then intentionally killed Microsoft's unofficial app.
sniperjzp 6y ago
First, you can play YouTube without any problem on Firestick, they made the change 2 years ago. Second, you should give the new Chromecast device a try, it's far much better than Roku. Third, Google is asking Roku to support VP9, which is a much superior video coding format, I don't see any issue with this ask.
- efdee 6y ago
  Either YouTube requires VP9 and then everybody has to implement it, or it allows other codecs and leaves Roku alone. What's the point of singling them out?
  - SR2Z 6y ago
    Because VP9 is much, much cheaper for: - Google, who doesn't have to pay royalties - Google and consumers, who can enjoy better compression and lower bandwidth - Consumers, who can enjoy a much more mainstream video encoding format in not just YT but pretty much every app. Google doesn't want to write off 45% of the set-top market right away, but at the same time it's 100% in the right to demand Roku support modern royalty-free codecs going forward. Roku fights pretty much everybody nowadays and as someone who's been dealing with full-screen ads and missing apps on my $1000 TV, I have no sympathy for Roku whining about needing to support a modern codec.

ericra 6y ago

I have always used a Roku for TV streaming, but things like this are making it more difficult. Something similar happened with Amazon and the Twitch app for Roku. Amazon obviously wants you to use a Fire product to access Twitch, and they completely removed support for the Twitch app for Roku. Even the unofficial Twitch app shut down shortly after this, leaving no reasonable way to access Twitch content from a Roku. If the Youtube app and available alternatives get removed as well, I'll basically be forced into another device since Twitch and Youtube offer a large percentage of the content I watch. I can only hope that some future legislation or anti-trust lawsuit makes it more difficult for these companies to force you into buying their specific hardware to access these services, but I am not hopeful.

mey 6y ago
I replaced my roku with an nvidia shield over the twitch issue.
enragedcacti 6y ago
Twitch on Roku is really frustrating. The unofficial app worked perfectly for me and then the dev faced legal action from Amazon. One thing I have found is that using the "Roku Stream Tester" dev tool you can push a twitch stream to your TV to play it. You can use this site to get the .m3u8 URL for the stream at whatever res you want: https://pwn.sh/tools/getstream.html https://pwn.sh/tools/getstream.html Then use this tool with your Roku in dev mode: http://devtools.web.roku.com/stream_tester/html/ http://devtools.web.roku.com/stream_tester/html/ This is a giant pain in the ass obviously but it does work if you just want to use it occasionally. The Stream Tester works through a REST API so theoretically someone could write a browser plugin or app to automate all of this. edit: a fun side affect of this is that the stream plays better than it ever did in the official twitch app or even on my Non-4k fire TV. 60fps is really smooth whereas on the FireTV or the Twitch app for Roku it would hitch and stutter occasionally

dubcanada 6y ago

I'm surprised this is the first time someone tried to push their weight and try and get what they want. But it does seem to be a baseless claim, we have no idea actually what was asked. I think it's a little too early to jump onboard any side.

twobitshifter 6y ago
Roku is not a completely innocent content portal. Roku notably sells buttons on its remotes tied to services you may not even use. A consumer friendly remote would have configurable buttons, so they’re not against favoriting certain apps over others. Within Roku itself you’ll get sidebar ads for certain video services. Roku is happy to prioritize your app but only if you pay for it.
- intergalplan 6y ago
  Interestingly, there are 3rd-party remotes that contain different "suggested" channels. I've got one with six of those buttons, which is actually kinda nice because 5/6 are channels I use. I wouldn't be surprised if there exist programmable remotes that allow custom launchers, at least for the set of all channels Roku has ever had on their own buttons (they must be giving each app they put on there a unique, or at least rarely-recycled, code, since remotes with different promoted channels on them do work as expected on Rokus other than the one they came with). Though, yes, it would be nice if Roku let the user program those buttons on stock remotes.
criddell 6y ago
It's not the first time. It took a while for HBO Max to show up on Roku because both sides were playing hardball.

post_break 6y ago

If this is true, could you imagine if Google tried to pull this on Apple? Making YouTube music show up when using the siri remote. These allegations are serious, and if Roku isn't lying it's straight up crazy.

deckard1 6y ago
Apple and Google already have a symbiotic anti-competitive relationship on the iPhone worth billions of dollars. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/25/technology/apple-google-search-antitrust.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/25/technology/apple-google-s... Only reason Google can't bully Apple is because Apple is too big.
vineyardmike 6y ago
They could never pull this on Apple. Apple has too much user base support leverage and is too willing to expunge apps that don’t play along.
enos_feedler 6y ago
Serious they may be, but it's just a business deal. They can take it or leave it.
coldacid 6y ago
Apple would laugh and tell Google to fuck off, right before removing every app for iOS that even contacts any Google service. They're about the only company out there with the clout and cash to give Google the finger without having to go to the courts (legal and/or public opinion) to do it.
- izacus 6y ago
  Apple does no such thing in case of search in Safari, so why are you making this stuff up? Not too mention Apple puts the same kind of requirements on developers and apps on their own tvOS platform - including UX behaviours and format support.
- tinus_hn 6y ago

jsnell 6y ago

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26942227 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26942227 (But this article seems to have a lot more details)

honksillet 6y ago

I guess this is a good a place as any to say that the video quality on youtubeTV is atrocious. I was shocked when I watch a live NFL game on the Roku amazon prime app. Also ytTV has just about double in price in less than 3 years. Roku has some issues too. Namely, it autodownloads a new random app about once a week so Im constant deleting apps from my home page. Lastly, this sounds a lot like, "Comcast Cale users might lose the ESPN Chanel ...". I'm pretty sick of all these xorporations.

marrone12 6y ago
The quality is really bad. Terrible compression with blocky artifacts and poor black levels. My pirate IPTV service has significantly better image quality.
intergalplan 6y ago
> Roku has some issues too. Namely, it autodownloads a new random app about once a week so Im constant deleting apps from my home page. WTF? New random apps about once a week? I've never seen this. Have multiple Roku boxes and a couple TVs with integrated Roku. Using them for years. Maybe there's some kind of "suggest new channels to me" checkbox you've got checked in account preferences?

NeuNeurosis 6y ago

I am in no way on Google's side on this but I am taking this with a grain of salt since I am sure that Roku is quite aware of the leverage this allegation could bring against Google with the on going anti-trust suite that is being brought against them.

daemonhunter 6y ago

So this is for the YoutubeTV and not the Youtube app right?

kschwab 6y ago
Yes, that's correct. Also, separately, Google is sunsetting the "Google Play Movies & TV app" and folding that into the YouTube (not YouTubeTV) app.

wmf 6y ago

Roku is similarly evil towards smaller apps, like demanding a cut of app revenue after the app gets a large user base.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ipaddr 6y ago
Would love to read more information on this. Private tv channels are constantly under attack.
jlund-molfese 6y ago
What percentage does Roku take? I wasn't aware that they were in the same rent-seeking game as the other app stores. They do talk about their "Platform Revenue," but it seems that's mostly generated from ads.
- wmf 6y ago
  AFAIK they're trying to take 30% of revenue from every app, even from ads that are internal to the app. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-18/nbc-threatens-to-black-out-apps-on-roku-in-dispute-over-peacock https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-18/nbc-threa... https://www.cordcuttersnews.com/rokus-recent-fight-with-fox-was-over-ads-the-roku-channel/ https://www.cordcuttersnews.com/rokus-recent-fight-with-fox-...

caturopath 6y ago

I've never used Roku voice commands. Is it unambiguous that a command is for music? Or "Stevie Wonder interview" and "Stevie Wonder Superstition" be interchangeable, with the first going to a Youtube vid and the second playing in Pandora?

ipaddr 6y ago

Next they will ask to be automatically loaded during startup. Get rid of the youtube app. It's low quality videos with ads when I use roku I use it for a better experience.

stephengoodwin 6y ago

Welp, I specifically bought a Roku device a few months ago just to use YouTube. I ran into major issues using Fire TV's YouTube app. The app would fail to get past the initial loading screen and hang forever. It would typically require 2-3 device restarts to work again, and even then it would only work temporarily. I tried completely resetting my Fire TV, relogging in, etc but never managed to get it to work properly). YouTube is the only app I've had issues with on Fire TV. Google also discontinued YouTube's great web browser experience, which was almost identical to the app, that you could load in Fire TV's web browser.

GloriousKoji 6y ago
I did the same thing, youtube recently dropped support for the older AppleTV and I had no interest in shelling out extra money for 4k or the option to play games i'm never going to play. This TV set-top box arms race is so stupid. The smart TV apps stopped working so I got an AppleTV. That stopped working so I got a Roku. When that stops working I guess i'll just go the full PC route with a NUC and a nice interface like Kodi.
myko 6y ago
Nvidia Shield and AppleTV are both quite good and the YouTube app works great on them
morganvachon 6y ago
> Welp, I specifically bought a Roku device a few months ago just to use YouTube. We have Rokus (a 4K Ultra in the living room and a TCL Roku TV in the bedroom), as well as a 4K Chromecast, and until we got the Roku Ultra we had a Nvidia Shield TV. We keep more than one type of device specifically because it is inevitable that a provider (Roku, Amazon, Google) will drop a service we enjoy. This actually happened with the Shield which is why we replaced it with a Roku; it was no longer working with Emby at all, and it was flaking out on certain other services. It could have been just a case of bad hardware but it was flawless for two years straight until one by one services stopped working on it. This is also why I have a Mac, a couple of Windows PCs, a Linux workstation, and a BSD laptop. When one of the above can't do something, one of the others can.

cirenehc 6y ago

> Roku alleges Google has asked it to favor YouTube music results from voice commands made on the Roku remote while the YouTube app is open, even if the user's music preference is set to default to another music app, like Pandora. How else do you use voice search for a music video on Youtube? If I open youtube and do a voice search. I'm expecting the search to be constrained to the app.

pkulak 6y ago
It sounds to me like they want the YouTube Music app to open when you search for a song on the YouTube app. Those are two entirely different apps, with different content, experiences, etc. It just so happens that Google named them the same, probably so they could more easily force integrations like this.
- p_j_w 6y ago
  At least on my Nvidia shield, this is not the case. YouTube Music is part of the YouTube app.
- judge2020 6y ago
  As said in the sibling comment, Google has combined all of their TV apps besides YTTV into the YouTube app. Music/Movies/Regular videos are all via that app. OP is saying "if i'm in an app, I want voice search to focus that app's search bar".
djrogers 6y ago
This sounds like the user is in Youtube, then says 'Play some Beyonce'. In this scenario, I'd expect some Lemonade from my default music app, not Youtube...

calderwoodra 6y ago

Either the journalist has interpreted Roku's claims incorrectly, or Roku is spreading falsehoods. It's a very common practice for streaming services to make crazy demands about the devices they're on. Roku[1], Google TV[2] and Firesticks[3] all have Netflix buttons on the remote not because they wanted them there, but because Netflix forces them to with the threat that they will blacklist their device. And inevitably, all devices comply because they know they won't be able to sell the product without Netflix support. [1] https://cigars.roku.com/v1/http%3A%2F%2Fimage.roku.com%2Fw%2Frapid%2Fimages%2Fpdp-carousel-items%2F8c96f4a9-8d7e-4351-aa8e-0137ff08d862.png https://cigars.roku.com/v1/http%3A%2F%2Fimage.roku.com%2Fw%2... [2] https://external-preview.redd.it/9itjeCYci2NPP7Vxr9onH_DFv7EsV0aOQJiJvA1IO3E.png?auto=webp&s=d68f7274ec2f635ddc305dc2b1ba9891e8c2848a https://external-preview.redd.it/9itjeCYci2NPP7Vxr9onH_DFv7E... [3] https://i.gadgets360cdn.com/large/amazon_fire_tv_stick_alexa_voice_remote_3rd_generation_image_1616749963892.jpg?downsize=950:*&output-quality=80 https://i.gadgets360cdn.com/large/amazon_fire_tv_stick_alexa...

wmf 6y ago
I agree that everybody involved is evil but we're still allowed to have opinions about that. Roku's evil and Google's evil don't necessarily cancel out.
inetknght 6y ago
> It's a very common practice for streaming services to make crazy demands about the devices they're on That doesn't make it any less anti-competitive
- Spivak 6y ago
  If it was “you must have a Netflix button and no others” I could see the argument but the demand for a particular user experience isn’t anticompetitive automatically. Company with leverage others might not have using that leverage isn’t something we vilify in general.
  - bogwog 6y ago
    If you're willfully ignorant of the situation, then sure. Otherwise, using leverage to favor your own product over competitors despite user preference is textbook anti-competitive behavior, almost comically so: Not only does it unfairly disadvantage competitors, but it also robs consumers of choice (by ignoring their preferences). I would love to see one of the meetings that lead to absurdly unethical and borderline/outright illegal decisions like this; did anyone bother to bring it up? Did the person that brought it up get the silent treatment? Were they no longer invited to lunch? Does everyone just understand that those topics are off limits? Or do these people seriously not care because they know they can get away with it?

awb 6y ago

Surprising with so many live TV competitors in a similar price range to YouTubeTV like Hulu and Fubo that are also on Roku.

MuffinFlavored 6y ago

This isn't that big of a deal to me because I could still use the YouTube TV app from my iPhone and then just "cast" it to the Roku which is acting as a "cast client". And even then, that's only at my friend's house where their TV is too old to have built in "smart TV / cast to me" functionality. Roku is dope but this might not be as big of a deal as it seems.

f430 6y ago

"Don't be Evil" - Larry Page

rootsudo 6y ago

Nothing of value loss, the youtube app on Roku is very glitchy and the entire ecosystem of Roku is very ad supported and user hostile. I would expect voice commands within the youtube app to stay within youtube. I am 50/50 on youtube music/youtube, but youtube app includes music so it's a general hard to decipher request but genereally if I want to voice search while I'm in youtube, I want it to stay in youtube. I don't understand why people flock to it/use it.

jahlove 6y ago
This is about the "Youtube TV" app, not the "Youtube" app.

CodeWriter23 6y ago

IMO Roku should make a rokutube site and wait until Google decides to abandon ChromeCast and comes crawling back.

mastrsushi 6y ago
I think this post is sarcastic, but not entirely sure.

taurath 6y ago

Roku makes insane demands of its video providers. So does every large platform company. Google is awful too, but this is like the pot calling the kettle black.

adrr 6y ago
They make all their money as being a service provider. That’s why they require content providers to use their platform and to rev share subscription and purchases made on the Roku platform. They aren’t a hardware company.

cosmotic 6y ago

One thing is clear: Google either doesn't understand users at all or they are lying when they say this is for the user.

the_lonely_road 6y ago

This kind of tactic works. I have 3 rokus in a box collecting dust and two brand new Fire sticks that replaced them. I didn't want to do this but 85% of my streaming time is spent on Twitch.tv and I wasn't able to use my Roku's to stream it anymore.

LocalH 6y ago
Look into "twoku"
colordrops 6y ago
Why is Twitch not on Roku?
- driverdan 6y ago
  Because Amazon is equally anti-competitive and wants people to use Fire devices.
echelon 6y ago
Out of curiosity, who do you watch on Twitch? How do you find interesting content?
- the_lonely_road 6y ago
  GrandVice8 is 95% of my stream consumption but my followed list online right now is: TimTheTatman DrLupo dogdog DQA_TFT Becca Break TidesofTime ibiza Kaymind smaceTRON Myles_Away Cheesewiz DeliciousMilkGG It depends on how you define interesting content of course. For me that is "Tactical or strategic games with a significant enough RNG component to be classified as 'Controlling the Chaos' (think Poker, not Chess) and which have a lively leaderboard. I enjoy watching the competition for Rank #1 and I enjoy competing to see how high I can get. My current favorite game is Team Fight Tactics (Riot Games the maker of league of legends auto battler). You can find the leaderboards here: https://lolchess.gg/leaderboards?hl=en-US https://lolchess.gg/leaderboards?hl=en-US And my all time highest rank achieved was #540/1,250,000 in North America (not bad at all for an executive and father of a toddler). Pretty much all of the guys competing for rank #1 will also be streamers so finding content is as easy as googling their name from the leaderboard + twitch. If thats not your cup of tea, probably the best way would be to choose twitch's browse option and just watch the most popular streamers in each game for a few minutes to see if you are into their content. Some are informative, some are looking to appeal to 13 year olds, some are chasing some goal, etc.

taylodl 6y ago

I currently have YouTube TV I access via my Apple TV. The nice thing about internet cable is how quickly you can switch providers. If Google or Apple get into a tiff or whatever then I can switch to Fubo and not miss a beat. Many people have mentioned Fubo as an alternative and frankly it looks pretty good. The biggest reason I watch TV is for sports. Fubo and YouTube TV seem similarly matched in that regard. As consumers we should all be glad we have choices.

beastman82 6y ago

I can't recommend the nvidia shield highly enough as an alternative to Roku

SixDouble5321 6y ago
Can you tell a little about what are hits and misses about the shield, and which one you own?
bobsmooth 6y ago
And it's powerful enough to be an emulation machine.

ta9999 6y ago

Who the hell would pay google for youtube? Anything worth watching is on patreon so you can just watch it there if you want to pay for something without dealing with all of Google's crap.

jpollock 6y ago

Roku wants to be an app store, and it wants a cut of both the subscription fee and the ad inventory: "Roku's standard terms for partner channels include 20% of subscription fees and 30% of ad inventory" For services that bundle other people's content that's likely to be a problem (see Spotify and Apple). https://popculture.com/streaming/news/roku-founder-reveals-why-hbo-max-peacock-arent-available/ https://popculture.com/streaming/news/roku-founder-reveals-w...

judge2020 6y ago
Just as 'everybody wants to rule the world', every company wants to be FAANG so they'll attack FAANG until they're on top.

jonnycomputer 6y ago

Google calls the accusation baseless. But I'd bet there would be documentation if it were true ..

jonnycomputer 6y ago
Google calls the accusation baseless. But it is quite reasonable to assume that a lot of documentation is produced during the course of such negotiation, so I would expect there to be some pertaining to the items at issue. Am I wrong?

StevePerkins 6y ago

Ehh... I would wager on Roku being more dug-in here. For them, control over their hardware is an existential concern. For Google, streaming television is one of their many dalliances that may or not still be active 5 years from now. Every television that I've bought over the past 5-10 years has Roku built into it. I know that some people prefer to plug in Amazon devices instead, and that's perfectly fine (not that Amazon is any "less evil" of a company than Google or Roku). But I use Roku's platform because it's usually the hardware default, and I like the UI well enough. I'm already pissed that Google has raised their prices to the point where I no longer save any money compared to what I used to pay for cable+internet. And then dropped sports coverage for my local baseball team anyway. If YouTube TV disappears from Roku's platform, then I'll just sign up for Hulu or whatever 5 minutes later. Or fuck it, I might just go back to cable. These over-the-top, "skinny bundles" have been a bait and switch in practice.

madoublet 6y ago
Same here. Except for the cable part. I really like Google TV but, I am not going to buy new hardware for it. Hulu is good enough, plus they have some good exclusives coming back.

etempleton 6y ago

HBO Max was delayed in appearing on Roku because of negotiation breakdowns. In the case HBO it was Roku that seemed to have the demands. They are looking at revenue anywhere they can, but if their position weakens look for Google, ATT, and others to simply forgo working with them. I think Roku is in a perilous position in general. They generated a lot of buzz on Wallstreet with their high user counts. They also purchased a DSP to get more into the advertising game. However they are at risk of being disrupted. They do not offer much that is unique and have largely gained and held market position by being the cheapest and easiest to use. Cheap Android TV devices are starting to compete with them on price and tv manufacturers have mostly chosen to create and maintain their own ecosystems. Unless they make some big strategic maneuvers I see them slowly being squeezed out like Tivo.

BeetleB 6y ago
I think we probably hang out in different crowds. I have a Chromecast, and various consoles. Roku is still the best overall (despite shortcomings). Everyone I know who bought a Roku prefers it to all the other options. Can anyone tell me what other streaming devices have over Roku? What I need: - A real remote. Not going to use my phone to control things. - Good search. When I search, I want results from most of the apps - so I can find out which ones have the show/movie I'm looking for (with an indication of price). - Good support from all the major services: Youtube, PBS, Plex, Netflix, all the major TV channels (HGTV, ABC, CBS, etc). - Easy to install my own app without militant control from the manufacturer. - Affordable ($25-35), and not integrated into my TV. - Can use in hotels/motels - this is critical (Roku generally wins big here - Chromecast totally fails).
- pa7ch 6y ago
  I think OP had the answer. Android TV beats its because you don't think about buying a Roku when your TV comes with something equivalent.
  - BeetleB 6y ago
    That's no use for people who don't have it (i.e. everyone I know). Those that do have smart TVs use Rokus, but that may be because their TVs are older (likely not Android). And in any case, it doesn't check all the boxes - particularly the one about "use in motels/hotels when I travel"

throwaway9_3 6y ago

This wouldn't be the first time Google uses their market power to gain an unfair advantage in the TV space. On the TV Device Maker side they don't allow manufacturers to use alternatives to Android TV (such as FireTV) or they threaten to kick them out of Android Mobile. See https://www.protocol.com/google-android-amazon-fire-tv https://www.protocol.com/google-android-amazon-fire-tv

crazypython 6y ago

Maybe they could use a FOSS YouTube client like Nvidious. Or even install a freedom-respecting and open source decentralized solution such as Odysee (LBRY) or PeerTube, and ask people to post there.

VWWHFSfQ 6y ago

I got rid of my Roku when they pulled the Spectrum TV app.

CivBase 6y ago

Stuff like this is why "general computing" devices should (and will hopefully) never die. I just plug my laptop into my TV via HDMI and I can stream video, browse the web, play games, and do whatever. That solution has served me well for a decade now and I have zero interest in smart TV software, Roku, Chromecast, Fire Stick, Apple TV, or any of that crap.

rajivjain 6y ago

This is why we as users should choose our platforms carefully. This spat between Roku and Google is ultimately all about $$$ generated with 'monetizing' our habits and data. Ad infested platforms like Roku will continually try and push for larger share of the pie. Whereas, Google will continue pushing for more data. They both will win. Win at our expense. Not thanks, I would rather stay with my Apple TV and have a modicum of control over my privacy, even though it's more expensive piece of hardware to buy.

Cd00d 6y ago
Can you use Prime Video?

jrochkind1 6y ago

> such as being asked to favor Google products in Roku search results. Anyone else find it alarming that google has no problem with strong-arming partners into prefering their search results? Kinda makes you wonder about what determines Google's own search results, right? Does Google really want us wondering that?

videoborat 6y ago

Also featured here: https://www.protocol.com/youtube-tv-roku-issues https://www.protocol.com/youtube-tv-roku-issues The article raises an interesting point. Ultimately, Googles pushing of 'royalty-free' AV1 for the greater good is just shifting costs to device makers and implementors that have to pay increased engineering and build cost instead of royalties. if it turns out to really be royalty-free that is...

ohazi 6y ago

Roku should just drop them. The YouTube experience on Google's Roku app is hot garbage compared to a web browser with an ad blocker.

limeblack 6y ago
My parents(grandparents also) don't mind working a Roku. The same can not be said for a web browser on the TV.

indymike 6y ago

I've had Roku, Chromecasts, a couple different LG and Samsung smartTVs, and the best, far and away was the cheap TCL Roku TV. Why? Because everyone in the family could use it, and there were hundreds of streaming providers available. Chromecasts are easy, but require another device to work. The Roku TV? You could operate it from the buttons on the TV if you lost the remote (a regular occurrence with 7 people in the house)... and it was fine. So... what about the YouTube app? It was great on Roku.

judge2020 6y ago
I'm still astonished by how much LG and Samsung are able to cripple their own devices in the performance department. It's like they bought the cheapest chip/mainboard that checked the box 'smooth 30fps 4k hdr'.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Because that’s what consumers want. Many would rather pay $500 for the cheapest chip/mainboard, but the $1,500 TVs have always been available.

mastrsushi 6y ago

Imagine how excited you would've felt if you won a Roku in 2021. You'd probably try to sell it. Or maybe you'd give it to your grandmother, unless you already gave her one way back in 2012. The bigger picture is that streaming has become such an expected, basic, embedded functionality and Roku along with other dependent companies failed to adapt. Yes, Google is in a consistent, self denying state of being evil, but Roku has become the Blackberry of stream boxes. They haven't done anything innovative in years. I won't be surprised if they will be forever flooded by a storm of no-name Chinese Linux/Java powered stream boxes. Obviously these devices don't provide the same user experience, but they definitely reflect Roku's mediocrity. Roku seems to be playing victim.

synergy20 6y ago

so I have a firetv stick, a chromecast, both play youtube hulu disney+ etc, they're each like $30~$40 dollars, I thus have never had the need to buy a Roku stick, why do I need one and why does this youtube-tv-app matter?