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How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

170 points by Varqu 5y ago

gigatexal 5y ago
What I did: Check who’s hiring in X on HN. Apply. Realize the company is located in Hamburg, Germany. Get hired. Move. Enjoy life in a stable, wealthy, European country.
- no_one_ever 5y ago
  Did you move from US? What is the process like?
  - gigatexal 5y ago
    I did, yes. I moved with my wife and two dogs and most of our stuff to Hamburg. The startup paid for the flights, the visa fees (if any, I don’t remember), the container to put our crap in (it was a logistics startup so they knew how to do this rather well), and prepaid for an AirBnB for 3 months for us to find housing. We had hang ups in getting my wife recognized such that we could get on the more lucrative tax schedule of tax class 3 (one earner). The Germans are sticklers for the details but common sense prevailed and our paper work was finally honored and we got a blue card which means my visa is tied to my working and making a minimum amount. We live now in Berlin and absolutely love it here. We don’t interact with the government much so maybe that’s why but all-in-all it’s awesome out here. I don’t worry about getting shot or anything like that.
    - sneak 5y ago
      Did you worry about getting shot in the US?
      - gigatexal 5y ago
        Yes. In Portland where I lived we didn’t make enough to live in the nicer parts of town so we lived in the north east near Gresham and crime was a problem out there. Lots of gang violence. My comment was a bit flippant. But it was something I thought about from time to time. Here not at all.
        sneak 5y ago
        Well, for some additional anecdata: I've been mugged/attacked twice as much in Berlin (where I live) than I was in Detroit (where I grew up). I think perhaps the perception of risk in the US is blown way out of proportion due to the media frenzy around shootings, which are still pretty rare overall in the US. If you consume mass media, you will generally overestimate the risk by several orders of magnitude. (This is, for example, why many Europeans believe the stereotype that the US is so dangerous, when the vast majority of it is actually much safer wrt violent crime than most large cities in Europe.) If you were afraid there, you should be afraid here. (I personally don't think you should be afraid in either place.)
        gigatexal 5y ago
        I could hear the sirens and the shots in the backyard of my house. :/ though my perception of their frequency could be biased. I’m sorry to hear you were mugged and twice, too! That’s crazy. Not crazy that crime happens just that it blows away my thesis that I’m more or less free from having to think about it living here in Berlin. I did have a fancy road bike I bought in Hamburg stolen. But I think that’s more or less me being stupid.
        Nimitz14 5y ago
        Ridiculous statement. The homocide rate is so much higher in the US. Hard to believe anything you say.
        sneak 5y ago
        It's much higher in about five specific counties in the US. The vast majority of the US has less violent crime overall (guns, plus everything else) than most large cities in Europe. For a simple example in Berlin you get pepper sprayed by stick-up kids, whereas in the US mountain west there isn't much mugging at all (due to the fact that a mugger is about 50/50 to get a wallet or a bullet in response). The mistake is to think of the US as uniform. Most of it is extremely peaceful.
    - estaseuropano 5y ago
      Germans complain a lot about the government and lengthy procedures because they mostly haven't experienced what its like in other countries. Stickler for details but if you get those right everything is smooth and swift and no one asks for under the counter money or sends you away just because they don't like your face.
    - no_one_ever 5y ago
      thank you for your detailed response. I have some family in Germany and have thought about trying something similar, so I love to hear others' experiences.
- lbrito 5y ago
  >Move. Ah, the pre-covid days. Nowadays you might as well say "move to Mars".
  - lbrito 5y ago
    Wow, surprised by the downvotes. I'm genuinely curious to know if this sounds absurd to HN commenters. Are people really starting jobs abroad and relocating in these times?
- sdevonoes 5y ago
  I'm also enjoying life in a stable, wealthy, European country. It just came to my mind, recently, that affording a decent house (not flat) in this idealized European country of mine is still quite hard as long as one is an employee. Comfortable life starts when one works for himself (not freelancer, but owning a small company). Except unless you plan to buy a house in a town in the middle of nowhere, of course! Those are quite cheap.
  - gigatexal 5y ago
    I thought US house prices were insane until I saw what houses are going for here. It’s crazy. But we have consigned ourselves to apartment/rental living for our stay here. In fact we love our apartment so much here in Wilmersdorf so much that we’d love to buy it but the going rate for such a place (85 sq meters, 3 rooms, 2 baths) is >500k euros and only rising.
thanato0s 5y ago
Leaving in Germany for 6 years. Moved from France. What I'll say only concern Berlin. The interview process in startup can be more draining than that. Currently, it's more like 4 / 5 steps with (sometimes) 6+ hours homework. Yik. 60k is more for senior developers. Junior get less. Other than that the cost of living in Germany is quite low (lower in Berlin than in the South) and it's a very nice and stable country.
- dcolkitt 5y ago
  > 60k is more for senior developers. Junior get less. It's always shocking to me how low European SWE compensation is. Is it similar for other skilled professionals? What do accountants, lawyers, civil engineers, pilots, physical therapists, etc. make? I understand the demand side. I think the European tech industry is much less successful than its American counterpart, and therefore has less money to pay. But I don't understand the supply side. Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive needed to become a software engineer pursue that field?
  - rapsey 5y ago
    What you are not taking into account is that health care costs compared to the US are almost nothing. So is the cost of higher education.
    - dcolkitt 5y ago
      I don't want to rehash the many long debates about whether it's better to be a SWE in Europe or America. There are arguments both ways, and it's been pretty well discussed. My interest is largely orthogonal to that discussion. Assuming you're not leaving the continent, why would anyone (besides those who are very passionate about software) choose to be a European SWE instead of a European actuary?
      - estaseuropano 5y ago
        Do you only decide on your job for the expected salary?
sdevonoes 5y ago
> To sum up: if you are single and opt for "live cool and don't care about expenses" style, then an average developer salary will be enough (it might be harder if you have a family to feed). > On the other hand, if you choose to go the student-like route (living in Wohngemeinschaft and not eating out too much), you can easily manage with just 1.200-1.500 EUR per month, and save the majority of your salary. I know it may be an unpopular opinion, but saving 18K Euro/year leads you nowhere (first world problems, I know) if you would like to buy a decent house (not flat) in the suburbs of a medium-size German (or western European) city. Decent houses cost around 450K Euro (or more). Edit: Let's start a revolution :) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26903194 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26903194
- rkachowski 5y ago
  Typically you'd be saving for a deposit on a house, rather than the full amount.
- dkyc 5y ago
  Why's that? Saving 18k for 5 years would yield you 90k€, which would be an appropriate 20% down payment on the 450k€ house.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    In 5 years, that house might cost a bit more than 450k.
    - adrianN 5y ago
      Or it might cost a bit less.
      - wink 5y ago
        Prices have beeen going up steadily for the last 10-15 years. Maybe there was a single dip in 2008-2010.
eloeffler 5y ago
I'm surprised the article says nothing about certifications and or degrees, only work experience. I don't work in Software Engineering but I would have assumed that - like anywhere else in Germany - a university degree is required more often than abroad. Or am I wrong about that?
- leifg 5y ago
  For certain visas you need a university degree (for example the job seeking visa). When it comes to finding a job a lot of startups (specifically in Berlin) don't require it (the example that I have from a friend is she worked in customer support in a German startup). A lot of these startups need to communicate in English so being a native English speaker is an advantage. The issue arises if you want to apply for a work visa for any of these positions. Only a certain number of countries allow you to apply for a work visa while being in the country on a tourist visa (US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Israel, Japan, South Korea AFAIK (possibly the UK after Brexit)). If you're not from any of these countries you'll have to go back to your home country and apply for a visa there.
- k__ 5y ago
  Depends on your age and experience, I think. If you're in your early twenties and don't have much experience, it can be tough to get a job and a degree certainly helps. If you're over thirty and have worked for many companies, nobody asks for your degree anymore.
- DocTomoe 5y ago
  German proverb: What you have written on paper, you can happily carry home. Having degrees is giving you an advantage. Especially for entry-level positions, degrees are relevant to get a foot in the door. Once you advance to mid-level, people tend to ignore certifications and/or degrees - at the corporate job I am now, I didn't even include them in my application, just mentioning them in my CV. If you survived in the job market for a few years, noone questions your capabilities. What is more important later-on are recomendation letters ("Arbeitszeugnisse") from former employers (which they are required by law to give, and as they cannot make them sound negative, they tend to use a system of nice-sounding, but coded messages if you were not a good employee, e.g. "he always had good relationships with his colleagues" means "he did smalltalk all day, but did not work", or "she was always showing sociality" translates to "she's an alcoholic".)
zmachinaz 5y ago
I always thought that the top talent is actually leaving Germany to seek better opportunities elsewhere (already since 20y+). Main destinations Switzerland, UK, ...
- deleted 5y ago
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- jcfrei 5y ago
  Swiss labor market is tiny, so not much capacity there. UK no longer in the EU so getting a job there is harder I think. US is across the pond, might be too far away for a lot of people. So I'd say the labor market is a lot less flexible than you might think - lots of top talent still wants to work where they grew up / where their family is.
  - IdiocyInAction 5y ago
    It shouldn't be hard at all to get a visa for the UK - the main requirement is a job that pays more than 25k GBP I think. Aside from FAANG and Fintechs, I don't think that London is that much better than Munich or Berlin, especially after rent. The rest of the UK was really bad salary-wise.
  - kazen44 5y ago
    this. People are a lot more bound to their local community compared to many americans in my experience. Germany, (and most european countries in general) have far more local levels of distinct cultures (dialect, traditions, community etc). People do not easily want to leave the place they grew up in.
- hiveking 5y ago
  Well, someone has to replace them... and for many (most) people moving to Germany is an improvement anyways. ;)
the_only_law 5y ago
What’s the chance someone with experience, but no education could get a job in an EU country. I’ve always assumed that that’s off the table for people like myself.
- aeyes 5y ago
  The same as in other countries: Your biggest problem is going to be getting a work visa which is usually tied to higher education.
donio 5y ago
I guess the first step is to enable Javascript
scanny 5y ago
My 2 cents: Just finished my first month in Munich as a Web Dev after moving from Australia. Company is great and colleagues are lovely. German bureaucracy sucks but apart from that it has been an experience of ‘the more things change the more they stay the same’ when it comes to the job and culture. Honestly linkedin has had the best results for jobs, that and using a template for CVS and cover letters. There’s plenty of work and plenty of good companies, just keep applying and keep the effort in each application low. I interviewed the same here as I did anywhere else, job is at an English speaking company and my German level is still only at basics but that’s something to build when you arrive. Just apply from stability overseas and have them fly you out and sort the visa, don’t take a big risk at a time like this otherwise. Taxes and, as Allendoerfer rightly corrected me, the various social securities (unemployment insurance, healthcare, pension ect.) which you benefit from are almost half of your income, living expenses are high in some cities (Munich rent is mental). 58,000 euros is the normal minimum for a blue card, lower for tech jobs, but I would advise not taking less otherwise you’ll have serious stress by not having a decent income on top of the cultural change and no support network.
- martin_a 5y ago
  Good to hear that you like it. Munich can be lovely in the summer, you'll surely enjoy it. Also: Enjoying a real bavarian Biergärten is something I really look for after Corona.
  - scanny 5y ago
    After seeing the size of them when empty I really am keen to see them in full swing. It’s beautiful here, touring by bike has been fantastic, it must be amazing when everything has leaves!
- allendoerfer 5y ago
  To add to that: Taxes are not 50%, but there are mandatory social insurances you have to pay: Health insurance (+elderly care insurance), unemployment, pension system. They make up the biggest chunk for low to medium sized incomes. Your employer also pays into these insurances for you, which does not show up on your job-offer. So effectively you get 20% more than advertised.
deleted 5y ago
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- Rompect 5y ago
  As a German, the sex and especially origin of my coworkers is very important to me so thank you for mentioning it!
lacker 5y ago
The salaries seem really low. The absolute highest paying job listed on their site is a 110,000 euro salary, but you can get more than that with zero experience in California. I wonder if it would be better for software engineers in Germany to simply get remote working jobs for US companies.
- k__ 5y ago
  That's how I do it. Works well.
  - volta83 5y ago
    How does that work tax wise? Does the California company have an office in germany? If so, do they still pay the same salary as in california?
    - k__ 5y ago
      Oh, I'm self-employed.
      - mkurz 5y ago
        I am very interested: What is your hourly/daily/weekly rate? Do you have one long-term client in the US or multiples?
        k__ 5y ago
        I have one long-term client in the US. I also have other clients around the world, some long-term and some short-term. Overall, the international clients pay much better than the local ones.
  - tluyben2 5y ago
    You are a freelancer right? I always feel the US salaries are more comparable to EU freelancer salaries; I never made less than E100/hr as freelancer for the past 25 years working for EU companies. And often (if the economy is good etc), over 250/hr is doable. Sure you need to buy your own insurance (if you don't want public hospitals or minimum welfare if you get fired) but other than that I don't think it's that far off.
greatgib 5y ago
All in this article looked standard up to the point where I discoved that: "This is assuming that you are single and not a church member, because there is an extra tax (around 9% of your income tax) if you belong to one." Wtf germany? I have found more info: https://www.nomadenberlin.com/blog2/german-church-tax-kirchensteuer https://www.nomadenberlin.com/blog2/german-church-tax-kirche... it is a complete non-sense to me, if ever you wanted to give, why you are not allowed to decide the amount and to who you give? And 9% is a very important amount in my opinion! The more crazy, if ever you wanted to change your situation to declare yourself not a church member, then you have to fill forms with multiple id, and pay 30euros of fee.
- k__ 5y ago
  Yes, it's strange. But many of my millenial friends aren't even baptized, so they don't have to pay the tax. Also, you can "leave" a church any time you want.
  - lucb1e 5y ago
    > you can "leave" a church any time you want. For a small fee and an in-person visit to an office "near" you! Or so I've heard (I live in Germany but have never been a church member here so I wouldn't know myself).
    - k__ 5y ago
      Yes. This sucks especially for people living in the countryside. But the fee isn't that much compared to what you have to pay in taxes.
      - summm 5y ago
        it's like 30€ to 50€
        k__ 5y ago
        I paid 20€
light_hue_1 5y ago
Any time these guides come up they are simply shocking. I love Europe, I grew up there. I don't understand why anyone would stay as a developer in the EU. Software is simply not valued. Dev salaries are astounding. Senior engineers in the EU make less than entry level undergrads in the US or Canada. 60k Euros is 70k USD. People out of bootcamps with zero experience make more than that in the US. I don't have a single friend from university that I remember making less than 100k upon graduation. Mid-career salaries with bonuses and stock are 200k+. I'm afraid that until things radically change in the EU we'll always have US tech giants. Living in the EU isn't worth a 4x pay cut for many people.
- FalconSensei 5y ago
  The only problem with your comparison (and I'm not saying devs don't make less money in EU) is that you can't just convert one currency to the other. You have to compare purchasing power and quality of life. The same salary in US could be viewed as 'you are rich' or 'you can't pay rent' depending on with city you live in. Now, you are talking about different continents. I would compare the possible lifestyles and quality of life: how long does it take to buy a house/apartment? Can you afford to travel on vacation? Can you save money for your kids' college (or do you even need to do that)?
  - maccard 5y ago
    I've made this point many many times on this site, but if you make 150k in san Francisco, and pay 4k a month on rent, you have more left over after rent and tax than a mid level developer in europe makes as a gross salary.
    - spaced-out 5y ago
      If you can only make 150K in San Francisco, you'd be better off moving to a MCOL or LCOL US city where you can make nearly that much and have no trouble paying rent. It's only worth working in San Francisco if you're making 200K+ and think you have a good shot at making 300-500K in ~5 years or so (or if you're already making >300K, obviously).
adithyasrin 5y ago
If anyone is looking for a different job board to find jobs in Germany, take a look at this. I'd love to hear feedback! https://arbeitnow.com https://arbeitnow.com
_def 5y ago
Is my perspective skewed or are part time tech jobs pretty rare in Germany?
- adithyasrin 5y ago
  Part time jobs are usually for students, since they can mostly work only 20 hours a week
- luckystarr 5y ago
  They are rate, but §8 of the TzBfG (Part-Time Work and Fixed-term Employment Contracts Act) anyone who has worked for a company for at least 6 months has the right to reduce their monthly hours. Companies can only refuse in very dire situations (like the company going bust otherwise). Of course the pay will be proportionally reduced as well. It's not very widely used, because either some employees fear repercussions by their employer, or the just need the money. I've done it in the past and it's awesome.
jhirshman 5y ago
We (Uncountable) opened up a Munich office in 2018 and have been building an engineering team there after having personnel only in SF. Our experience was that there is a big pool of talent in both Munich and Berlin, but the number of high-tech startup jobs is much less than you would find in the U.S. coastal corridors. The job market is much less efficient. I find that it's much harder to find about about good candidates and to get our name out there as a company. The only reliable source of engineering candidates for us in Munich has actually been HN. More Info: I recorded a podcast about our experience with the Bavarian U.S. development organization: https://bavarianusoffices.libsyn.com/accelerating-rd-with-uncountable https://bavarianusoffices.libsyn.com/accelerating-rd-with-un... We're hiring in Munich: https://www.uncountable.com/careers https://www.uncountable.com/careers
- IdiocyInAction 5y ago
  > The job market is much less efficient. I find that it's much harder to find about about good candidates and to get our name out there as a company. The only reliable source of engineering candidates for us in Munich has actually been HN. What exactly makes it less efficient? Lack of networks?
pyjug 5y ago
The salaries in Germany for engineers are astoundingly low. Good engineers from India (I'm Indian working in SV) often ask me if it's worth migrating to Germany since US immigration is so hard. The answer is absolutely not -- you can easily make 70k USD in India as a decent mid-level engineer which is the same as Germany. And you get to live like a king in your own country, don't have to learn German, put up with racism etc. In fact, a lot of US companies hiring in India pay more in India than Germany! I know a couple friends making ~200k in Amazon India at 8-10 years of experience.
- dzonga 5y ago
  > you can easily make 70k USD in India as a decent mid-level engineer not that I know anything about Indian tech companies but please don't say that compensation is at FAANG companies. because those are not representative of the industry in general. Otherwise why would India be known for cheap dev's if Mid-levels can easily earn 70k.
  - pyjug 5y ago
    Indian tech salaries are very bi-modal. I'm not talking about body shops here - I'm talking about capable engineers who can get hired in SV, though not necessarily at FAANG. Think tier 2/3 cos. These engineers know their worth and want to maximize their earning potential. If it were easy to immigrate to the US they would choose SV in a heartbeat, but are looking for alternatives. My advice to them it's either SV or stay back in India, it's certainly not worth immigrating to Germany (I don't know about other EU countries, only have first hand experience in Germany)
    - dzonga 5y ago
      It would also be helpful if you post example job posts etc or salary reports etc rather than explain the dynamics. Though I agree the dynamics of remote work have being beneficial to capable engineers everywhere not just indian ones.
  - closeparen 5y ago
    That's still a $40k discount from the median US wage of $110k. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...
v41k 5y ago
If you're working in Tech in Germany i'm sincerely sorry for you. Go literally anywhere else.

170 points by Varqu 5y ago

What I did: Check who’s hiring in X on HN. Apply. Realize the company is located in Hamburg, Germany. Get hired. Move. Enjoy life in a stable, wealthy, European country.

no_one_ever 5y ago
Did you move from US? What is the process like?
- gigatexal 5y ago
  I did, yes. I moved with my wife and two dogs and most of our stuff to Hamburg. The startup paid for the flights, the visa fees (if any, I don’t remember), the container to put our crap in (it was a logistics startup so they knew how to do this rather well), and prepaid for an AirBnB for 3 months for us to find housing. We had hang ups in getting my wife recognized such that we could get on the more lucrative tax schedule of tax class 3 (one earner). The Germans are sticklers for the details but common sense prevailed and our paper work was finally honored and we got a blue card which means my visa is tied to my working and making a minimum amount. We live now in Berlin and absolutely love it here. We don’t interact with the government much so maybe that’s why but all-in-all it’s awesome out here. I don’t worry about getting shot or anything like that.
  - sneak 5y ago
    Did you worry about getting shot in the US?
    - gigatexal 5y ago
      Yes. In Portland where I lived we didn’t make enough to live in the nicer parts of town so we lived in the north east near Gresham and crime was a problem out there. Lots of gang violence. My comment was a bit flippant. But it was something I thought about from time to time. Here not at all.
      - sneak 5y ago
        Well, for some additional anecdata: I've been mugged/attacked twice as much in Berlin (where I live) than I was in Detroit (where I grew up). I think perhaps the perception of risk in the US is blown way out of proportion due to the media frenzy around shootings, which are still pretty rare overall in the US. If you consume mass media, you will generally overestimate the risk by several orders of magnitude. (This is, for example, why many Europeans believe the stereotype that the US is so dangerous, when the vast majority of it is actually much safer wrt violent crime than most large cities in Europe.) If you were afraid there, you should be afraid here. (I personally don't think you should be afraid in either place.)
        gigatexal 5y ago
        I could hear the sirens and the shots in the backyard of my house. :/ though my perception of their frequency could be biased. I’m sorry to hear you were mugged and twice, too! That’s crazy. Not crazy that crime happens just that it blows away my thesis that I’m more or less free from having to think about it living here in Berlin. I did have a fancy road bike I bought in Hamburg stolen. But I think that’s more or less me being stupid.
        Nimitz14 5y ago
        Ridiculous statement. The homocide rate is so much higher in the US. Hard to believe anything you say.
        sneak 5y ago
        It's much higher in about five specific counties in the US. The vast majority of the US has less violent crime overall (guns, plus everything else) than most large cities in Europe. For a simple example in Berlin you get pepper sprayed by stick-up kids, whereas in the US mountain west there isn't much mugging at all (due to the fact that a mugger is about 50/50 to get a wallet or a bullet in response). The mistake is to think of the US as uniform. Most of it is extremely peaceful.
  - estaseuropano 5y ago
    Germans complain a lot about the government and lengthy procedures because they mostly haven't experienced what its like in other countries. Stickler for details but if you get those right everything is smooth and swift and no one asks for under the counter money or sends you away just because they don't like your face.
  - no_one_ever 5y ago
    thank you for your detailed response. I have some family in Germany and have thought about trying something similar, so I love to hear others' experiences.
lbrito 5y ago
>Move. Ah, the pre-covid days. Nowadays you might as well say "move to Mars".
- lbrito 5y ago
  Wow, surprised by the downvotes. I'm genuinely curious to know if this sounds absurd to HN commenters. Are people really starting jobs abroad and relocating in these times?
sdevonoes 5y ago
I'm also enjoying life in a stable, wealthy, European country. It just came to my mind, recently, that affording a decent house (not flat) in this idealized European country of mine is still quite hard as long as one is an employee. Comfortable life starts when one works for himself (not freelancer, but owning a small company). Except unless you plan to buy a house in a town in the middle of nowhere, of course! Those are quite cheap.
- gigatexal 5y ago
  I thought US house prices were insane until I saw what houses are going for here. It’s crazy. But we have consigned ourselves to apartment/rental living for our stay here. In fact we love our apartment so much here in Wilmersdorf so much that we’d love to buy it but the going rate for such a place (85 sq meters, 3 rooms, 2 baths) is >500k euros and only rising.

thanato0s 5y ago

Leaving in Germany for 6 years. Moved from France. What I'll say only concern Berlin. The interview process in startup can be more draining than that. Currently, it's more like 4 / 5 steps with (sometimes) 6+ hours homework. Yik. 60k is more for senior developers. Junior get less. Other than that the cost of living in Germany is quite low (lower in Berlin than in the South) and it's a very nice and stable country.

dcolkitt 5y ago
> 60k is more for senior developers. Junior get less. It's always shocking to me how low European SWE compensation is. Is it similar for other skilled professionals? What do accountants, lawyers, civil engineers, pilots, physical therapists, etc. make? I understand the demand side. I think the European tech industry is much less successful than its American counterpart, and therefore has less money to pay. But I don't understand the supply side. Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive needed to become a software engineer pursue that field?
- rapsey 5y ago
  What you are not taking into account is that health care costs compared to the US are almost nothing. So is the cost of higher education.
  - dcolkitt 5y ago
    I don't want to rehash the many long debates about whether it's better to be a SWE in Europe or America. There are arguments both ways, and it's been pretty well discussed. My interest is largely orthogonal to that discussion. Assuming you're not leaving the continent, why would anyone (besides those who are very passionate about software) choose to be a European SWE instead of a European actuary?
    - estaseuropano 5y ago
      Do you only decide on your job for the expected salary?

sdevonoes 5y ago

> To sum up: if you are single and opt for "live cool and don't care about expenses" style, then an average developer salary will be enough (it might be harder if you have a family to feed). > On the other hand, if you choose to go the student-like route (living in Wohngemeinschaft and not eating out too much), you can easily manage with just 1.200-1.500 EUR per month, and save the majority of your salary. I know it may be an unpopular opinion, but saving 18K Euro/year leads you nowhere (first world problems, I know) if you would like to buy a decent house (not flat) in the suburbs of a medium-size German (or western European) city. Decent houses cost around 450K Euro (or more). Edit: Let's start a revolution :) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26903194 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26903194

rkachowski 5y ago
Typically you'd be saving for a deposit on a house, rather than the full amount.
dkyc 5y ago
Why's that? Saving 18k for 5 years would yield you 90k€, which would be an appropriate 20% down payment on the 450k€ house.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  In 5 years, that house might cost a bit more than 450k.
  - adrianN 5y ago
    Or it might cost a bit less.
    - wink 5y ago
      Prices have beeen going up steadily for the last 10-15 years. Maybe there was a single dip in 2008-2010.

eloeffler 5y ago

I'm surprised the article says nothing about certifications and or degrees, only work experience. I don't work in Software Engineering but I would have assumed that - like anywhere else in Germany - a university degree is required more often than abroad. Or am I wrong about that?

leifg 5y ago
For certain visas you need a university degree (for example the job seeking visa). When it comes to finding a job a lot of startups (specifically in Berlin) don't require it (the example that I have from a friend is she worked in customer support in a German startup). A lot of these startups need to communicate in English so being a native English speaker is an advantage. The issue arises if you want to apply for a work visa for any of these positions. Only a certain number of countries allow you to apply for a work visa while being in the country on a tourist visa (US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Israel, Japan, South Korea AFAIK (possibly the UK after Brexit)). If you're not from any of these countries you'll have to go back to your home country and apply for a visa there.
k__ 5y ago
Depends on your age and experience, I think. If you're in your early twenties and don't have much experience, it can be tough to get a job and a degree certainly helps. If you're over thirty and have worked for many companies, nobody asks for your degree anymore.
DocTomoe 5y ago
German proverb: What you have written on paper, you can happily carry home. Having degrees is giving you an advantage. Especially for entry-level positions, degrees are relevant to get a foot in the door. Once you advance to mid-level, people tend to ignore certifications and/or degrees - at the corporate job I am now, I didn't even include them in my application, just mentioning them in my CV. If you survived in the job market for a few years, noone questions your capabilities. What is more important later-on are recomendation letters ("Arbeitszeugnisse") from former employers (which they are required by law to give, and as they cannot make them sound negative, they tend to use a system of nice-sounding, but coded messages if you were not a good employee, e.g. "he always had good relationships with his colleagues" means "he did smalltalk all day, but did not work", or "she was always showing sociality" translates to "she's an alcoholic".)

zmachinaz 5y ago

I always thought that the top talent is actually leaving Germany to seek better opportunities elsewhere (already since 20y+). Main destinations Switzerland, UK, ...

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jcfrei 5y ago
Swiss labor market is tiny, so not much capacity there. UK no longer in the EU so getting a job there is harder I think. US is across the pond, might be too far away for a lot of people. So I'd say the labor market is a lot less flexible than you might think - lots of top talent still wants to work where they grew up / where their family is.
- IdiocyInAction 5y ago
  It shouldn't be hard at all to get a visa for the UK - the main requirement is a job that pays more than 25k GBP I think. Aside from FAANG and Fintechs, I don't think that London is that much better than Munich or Berlin, especially after rent. The rest of the UK was really bad salary-wise.
- kazen44 5y ago
  this. People are a lot more bound to their local community compared to many americans in my experience. Germany, (and most european countries in general) have far more local levels of distinct cultures (dialect, traditions, community etc). People do not easily want to leave the place they grew up in.
hiveking 5y ago
Well, someone has to replace them... and for many (most) people moving to Germany is an improvement anyways. ;)

the_only_law 5y ago

What’s the chance someone with experience, but no education could get a job in an EU country. I’ve always assumed that that’s off the table for people like myself.

aeyes 5y ago
The same as in other countries: Your biggest problem is going to be getting a work visa which is usually tied to higher education.

donio 5y ago

I guess the first step is to enable Javascript

scanny 5y ago

My 2 cents: Just finished my first month in Munich as a Web Dev after moving from Australia. Company is great and colleagues are lovely. German bureaucracy sucks but apart from that it has been an experience of ‘the more things change the more they stay the same’ when it comes to the job and culture. Honestly linkedin has had the best results for jobs, that and using a template for CVS and cover letters. There’s plenty of work and plenty of good companies, just keep applying and keep the effort in each application low. I interviewed the same here as I did anywhere else, job is at an English speaking company and my German level is still only at basics but that’s something to build when you arrive. Just apply from stability overseas and have them fly you out and sort the visa, don’t take a big risk at a time like this otherwise. Taxes and, as Allendoerfer rightly corrected me, the various social securities (unemployment insurance, healthcare, pension ect.) which you benefit from are almost half of your income, living expenses are high in some cities (Munich rent is mental). 58,000 euros is the normal minimum for a blue card, lower for tech jobs, but I would advise not taking less otherwise you’ll have serious stress by not having a decent income on top of the cultural change and no support network.

martin_a 5y ago
Good to hear that you like it. Munich can be lovely in the summer, you'll surely enjoy it. Also: Enjoying a real bavarian Biergärten is something I really look for after Corona.
- scanny 5y ago
  After seeing the size of them when empty I really am keen to see them in full swing. It’s beautiful here, touring by bike has been fantastic, it must be amazing when everything has leaves!
allendoerfer 5y ago
To add to that: Taxes are not 50%, but there are mandatory social insurances you have to pay: Health insurance (+elderly care insurance), unemployment, pension system. They make up the biggest chunk for low to medium sized incomes. Your employer also pays into these insurances for you, which does not show up on your job-offer. So effectively you get 20% more than advertised.

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Rompect 5y ago
As a German, the sex and especially origin of my coworkers is very important to me so thank you for mentioning it!

lacker 5y ago

The salaries seem really low. The absolute highest paying job listed on their site is a 110,000 euro salary, but you can get more than that with zero experience in California. I wonder if it would be better for software engineers in Germany to simply get remote working jobs for US companies.

k__ 5y ago
That's how I do it. Works well.
- volta83 5y ago
  How does that work tax wise? Does the California company have an office in germany? If so, do they still pay the same salary as in california?
  - k__ 5y ago
    Oh, I'm self-employed.
    - mkurz 5y ago
      I am very interested: What is your hourly/daily/weekly rate? Do you have one long-term client in the US or multiples?
      - k__ 5y ago
        I have one long-term client in the US. I also have other clients around the world, some long-term and some short-term. Overall, the international clients pay much better than the local ones.
- tluyben2 5y ago
  You are a freelancer right? I always feel the US salaries are more comparable to EU freelancer salaries; I never made less than E100/hr as freelancer for the past 25 years working for EU companies. And often (if the economy is good etc), over 250/hr is doable. Sure you need to buy your own insurance (if you don't want public hospitals or minimum welfare if you get fired) but other than that I don't think it's that far off.

greatgib 5y ago

All in this article looked standard up to the point where I discoved that: "This is assuming that you are single and not a church member, because there is an extra tax (around 9% of your income tax) if you belong to one." Wtf germany? I have found more info: https://www.nomadenberlin.com/blog2/german-church-tax-kirchensteuer https://www.nomadenberlin.com/blog2/german-church-tax-kirche... it is a complete non-sense to me, if ever you wanted to give, why you are not allowed to decide the amount and to who you give? And 9% is a very important amount in my opinion! The more crazy, if ever you wanted to change your situation to declare yourself not a church member, then you have to fill forms with multiple id, and pay 30euros of fee.

k__ 5y ago
Yes, it's strange. But many of my millenial friends aren't even baptized, so they don't have to pay the tax. Also, you can "leave" a church any time you want.
- lucb1e 5y ago
  > you can "leave" a church any time you want. For a small fee and an in-person visit to an office "near" you! Or so I've heard (I live in Germany but have never been a church member here so I wouldn't know myself).
  - k__ 5y ago
    Yes. This sucks especially for people living in the countryside. But the fee isn't that much compared to what you have to pay in taxes.
    - summm 5y ago
      it's like 30€ to 50€
      - k__ 5y ago
        I paid 20€

light_hue_1 5y ago

Any time these guides come up they are simply shocking. I love Europe, I grew up there. I don't understand why anyone would stay as a developer in the EU. Software is simply not valued. Dev salaries are astounding. Senior engineers in the EU make less than entry level undergrads in the US or Canada. 60k Euros is 70k USD. People out of bootcamps with zero experience make more than that in the US. I don't have a single friend from university that I remember making less than 100k upon graduation. Mid-career salaries with bonuses and stock are 200k+. I'm afraid that until things radically change in the EU we'll always have US tech giants. Living in the EU isn't worth a 4x pay cut for many people.

FalconSensei 5y ago
The only problem with your comparison (and I'm not saying devs don't make less money in EU) is that you can't just convert one currency to the other. You have to compare purchasing power and quality of life. The same salary in US could be viewed as 'you are rich' or 'you can't pay rent' depending on with city you live in. Now, you are talking about different continents. I would compare the possible lifestyles and quality of life: how long does it take to buy a house/apartment? Can you afford to travel on vacation? Can you save money for your kids' college (or do you even need to do that)?
- maccard 5y ago
  I've made this point many many times on this site, but if you make 150k in san Francisco, and pay 4k a month on rent, you have more left over after rent and tax than a mid level developer in europe makes as a gross salary.
  - spaced-out 5y ago
    If you can only make 150K in San Francisco, you'd be better off moving to a MCOL or LCOL US city where you can make nearly that much and have no trouble paying rent. It's only worth working in San Francisco if you're making 200K+ and think you have a good shot at making 300-500K in ~5 years or so (or if you're already making >300K, obviously).

adithyasrin 5y ago

If anyone is looking for a different job board to find jobs in Germany, take a look at this. I'd love to hear feedback! https://arbeitnow.com https://arbeitnow.com

_def 5y ago

Is my perspective skewed or are part time tech jobs pretty rare in Germany?

adithyasrin 5y ago
Part time jobs are usually for students, since they can mostly work only 20 hours a week
luckystarr 5y ago
They are rate, but §8 of the TzBfG (Part-Time Work and Fixed-term Employment Contracts Act) anyone who has worked for a company for at least 6 months has the right to reduce their monthly hours. Companies can only refuse in very dire situations (like the company going bust otherwise). Of course the pay will be proportionally reduced as well. It's not very widely used, because either some employees fear repercussions by their employer, or the just need the money. I've done it in the past and it's awesome.

jhirshman 5y ago

We (Uncountable) opened up a Munich office in 2018 and have been building an engineering team there after having personnel only in SF. Our experience was that there is a big pool of talent in both Munich and Berlin, but the number of high-tech startup jobs is much less than you would find in the U.S. coastal corridors. The job market is much less efficient. I find that it's much harder to find about about good candidates and to get our name out there as a company. The only reliable source of engineering candidates for us in Munich has actually been HN. More Info: I recorded a podcast about our experience with the Bavarian U.S. development organization: https://bavarianusoffices.libsyn.com/accelerating-rd-with-uncountable https://bavarianusoffices.libsyn.com/accelerating-rd-with-un... We're hiring in Munich: https://www.uncountable.com/careers https://www.uncountable.com/careers

IdiocyInAction 5y ago
> The job market is much less efficient. I find that it's much harder to find about about good candidates and to get our name out there as a company. The only reliable source of engineering candidates for us in Munich has actually been HN. What exactly makes it less efficient? Lack of networks?

pyjug 5y ago

The salaries in Germany for engineers are astoundingly low. Good engineers from India (I'm Indian working in SV) often ask me if it's worth migrating to Germany since US immigration is so hard. The answer is absolutely not -- you can easily make 70k USD in India as a decent mid-level engineer which is the same as Germany. And you get to live like a king in your own country, don't have to learn German, put up with racism etc. In fact, a lot of US companies hiring in India pay more in India than Germany! I know a couple friends making ~200k in Amazon India at 8-10 years of experience.

dzonga 5y ago
> you can easily make 70k USD in India as a decent mid-level engineer not that I know anything about Indian tech companies but please don't say that compensation is at FAANG companies. because those are not representative of the industry in general. Otherwise why would India be known for cheap dev's if Mid-levels can easily earn 70k.
- pyjug 5y ago
  Indian tech salaries are very bi-modal. I'm not talking about body shops here - I'm talking about capable engineers who can get hired in SV, though not necessarily at FAANG. Think tier 2/3 cos. These engineers know their worth and want to maximize their earning potential. If it were easy to immigrate to the US they would choose SV in a heartbeat, but are looking for alternatives. My advice to them it's either SV or stay back in India, it's certainly not worth immigrating to Germany (I don't know about other EU countries, only have first hand experience in Germany)
  - dzonga 5y ago
    It would also be helpful if you post example job posts etc or salary reports etc rather than explain the dynamics. Though I agree the dynamics of remote work have being beneficial to capable engineers everywhere not just indian ones.
- closeparen 5y ago
  That's still a $40k discount from the median US wage of $110k. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...

v41k 5y ago

If you're working in Tech in Germany i'm sincerely sorry for you. Go literally anywhere else.