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EU cities contemplate life with less Airbnb

44 points by Quanttek 5y ago

gogopuppygogo 5y ago
Making travel less affordable... NIMBYISM creeps out of the shadows all over the place...
- bushbaba 5y ago
  Does it though? I’d assume that if supply is restricted. Demand goes down. Keeping prices relatively in check. E.g. if Greece is the same price as south of France. People would just go to France.
  - jayparth 5y ago
    Perhaps. As someone who travels relatively infrequently, I'm pretty price insensitive. Like I'm traveling. Who cares if one of those locations is 20% cheaper? I wonder of many people are like me. I doubt that people are very price sensitive when visiting landmark cities.
  - Aerroon 5y ago
    I've never been to France or Greece, but are they comparable destinations for a vacation? I was under the impression that a vacation in Athens will be warm and sunny, whereas Paris will likely be cloudy.
    - StavrosK 5y ago
      They probably meant the Mediterranean part of France (Marseille, Montpellier, etc), but yeah, that comparison seems a bit odd to me too.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - _rpd 5y ago
    > if supply is restricted. Demand goes down Luxury goods can behave oddly, but in general demand is independent of supply. Restricting supply causes prices to rise, which lowers demand (at that high price). The underlying demand (at the lower price) remains constant.
- htaunay 5y ago
  Travel less affordable to some, housing more affordable to others.
  - StavrosK 5y ago
    Yes please. I'm tired of not being able to afford living in my own city.
    - baby 5y ago
      Is it really because of AirBnB?
      - StavrosK 5y ago
        I don't know, insofar as I don't have a view of who does what with each housing unit in the city, but I'd imagine to a large degree yes.
      - matkoniecz 5y ago
        Flats being rented on AirBnB is definitely competing with long term residents wishing to rent flats. What is more visible as due to COVID this flats become available for a normal rental. Obviously AirBnB, booking.com are only one of factors.
        baby 5y ago
        > Flats being rented on AirBnB is definitely competing with long term residents wishing to rent flats. so are hotels, parking lots, malls, and everything else that take space right?
        pseudalopex 5y ago
        Those are regulated and taxed.
        baby 5y ago
- femiagbabiaka 5y ago
  Has Airbnb driven down the cost of hostels? Anyone looking for cheap travel would be making a mistake if they're using Airbnb IME.
  - baby 5y ago
    > Anyone looking for cheap travel would be making a mistake if they're using Airbnb IME. Can you stay an entire month at a hostel? Usually not. It's also the end of the spectrum in terms of privacy, although there is couch surfing also.
    - padthai 5y ago
      You totally can. I have seen people living in them for months. To learn a language, or in party hostels to enjoy the summer. When I was young spending a few weeks in a hostel was my favorite way to spend time between house hunting in a new city.
      - baby 5y ago
        You totally cannot in many hostels, maybe it's a thing in the US but I've been to many hostels in the world and some will limit your stay to a few days.
        pseudalopex 5y ago
        Just like AirBNB hosts.
        baby 5y ago
        At least there you have much more choices. I personally never ran into this doing airbnb.
    - heavyset_go 5y ago
      > Can you stay an entire month at a hostel? Usually not Yes, you can. You can probably negotiate a lower rate if you're staying that long or longer.
- hatuio 5y ago
  Hotels have to hold up hygiene, pay taxes and are regulated as to where and how many beds. Now people bought lifing flats and converted them to girls. Home > travel
- pm90 5y ago
  Prioritizing local vs temporary residents seems like the opposite of NIMBYism.
foolfoolz 5y ago
cities with strong tourism economy want to impose anti-tourism measures? how could this possibly play out
- Daishiman 5y ago
  Paris isn't making it's money from tourism, just like NY. There are other industries and inhabitants that the get displaced from the city if there's less rental property available. Tourism isn't a particularly profitable industry anyway.
- coffeefirst 5y ago
  With more small hotels popping up to accommodate the demand? AirBNB isn't essential, it's a middleman that provides booking and marketing. If the hammer came down and all they could do is list rentals that are actually legal, they'd wind up looking a lot like a better-designed Expedia. And honestly, that's probably fine.
baby 5y ago
I've spent the last 6 months doing airbnb hopping and I really need to find a way to share my experience. In a few words: it was amazing. We spent some time in San Diego, Hawaii, Arizona, Los Angeles, and Santa Barbara. If the vaccine wasn't here, we probably would have kept going east. I think the future will have a place for people who do not want to buy or rent a place long-term. #vanlife is already starting to spread throughout the world, but I think airbnb hopping will become much more prevalent as well. While there were downsides: we often didn't have friends in the places we visited, and we couldn't travel with all of our stuff -- the experiences and memories we've had made this a worthy thing to do. This is really something that I don't think would have been possible before AirBnB, the same way travelling the world wouldn't have been possible without the B2C'ization of flying.
- romanovcode 5y ago
  Yeah you do realise that most people are not techbros with 100+ salary and are affected by people like you and in some cases have no places to live becasue of airbnb taking flats from regular city dwellers?
  - baby 5y ago
    I reject your theory. I think issues with housing come from the inability of cities to build more housing, the lack of rent-controlled places, and investors who buy housing and do not rent the place out. On the other hand people travelling with AirBnB are much much much more prone to visit the small businesses in the district and the city, eat out, etc.
    - StavrosK 5y ago
      The fact that X is not the only issue does not mean X is not an issue at all.
      - candiodari 5y ago
        It kind of does. Unless it is by far the biggest issue any slack in X created by legislation will only feed the biggest issue. The biggest issue in housing is governments blocking construction to enrich existing residents. Without fixing that, nothing can change. You can only create short-term slight easing.
amelius 5y ago
> The cities' mayors call for all rentals for a period under 30 days to be classed as touristic accommodation. But they could also be used by business travelers.
jseliger 5y ago
EU cities will do absolutely anything to lower housing prices except build more housing. https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/i-will-do-anything-to-end-homelessness-except-build-more-homes https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/i-will-do-anything-to-en...
- StavrosK 5y ago
  Which cities are forbidding new housing? There are new buildings being built in my city all the time, while (and probably because) property prices are skyrocketing. I would appreciate some references.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
lend000 5y ago
Whether you like it or not, the world is becoming more connected and global. If you don't like that, don't pretend that it's one company ruining the world for you. Just admit that you don't want to share your neighborhood with tourists.
- matkoniecz 5y ago
  I am happily admitting that! Though strictly speaking I have no problem with tourists (except hen parties/stag parties), I have problem with city spending more effort on keeping tourists happy than residents happy. And for example refusing to fix sidewalks and having funds to advertise city as a tourism destination. While hotels take over local cinemas, shops, apartments, restaurants and other objects used by local residents. Airbnb and similar is making it more problematic - as something that was constructed as apartments may easily turn into a de facto hotel. What is especially irritating for real residents in the same building.
- stevehawk 5y ago
  most of us also dont want home prices driven up by hedge funds and 2nd/3rd/4th mortgagers buying a house just to airbnb
  - lend000 5y ago
    Ah, yes, the hedge funds, too. So many evil groups conspiring to ruin your weekend. What you describe is only profitable if lots of people want to travel to the destination and they can keep the properties busy (it's a lot of work). What I hear is "I don't like to travel as much as other people so I don't want to be inconvenienced by them, and I'd rather they don't get to travel."
    - jhrmnn 5y ago
      That residential property is increasingly bought as investment by both small and large players and this is one of the factors driving prices up is a fact. See for example Figure 1.3 here [open access] https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-11674-3_1 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-11674-3_...
sneak 5y ago
Why should cities have any authority to tell people what they are or aren't allowed to do in their own, paid-for apartments? This seems like the worst kind of "because we can" meddling. I could imagine if, say, someone were running a call center or mini-factory in their home; there is an argument (although one I do not make) for zoning. Simply using a residential unit or building for residing by people, however, shouldn't be any business of anyone but the people so residing or the people who own/rent the space.
- switch007 5y ago
  The kind of properties which are under debate are not detached farms in the countryside. They’re apartments with lots of close neighbours typically. Things are very close-nit in Europe. There are popular tv comedies about the trials and tribulations of living in apartments in European cities. Community living is taken very (some would say way too) seriously in many European countries. Honestly it’s very easy to find explanations of the problems from different perspectives if you google. (I’m on mobile)
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- GavinMcG 5y ago
  Residing isn't the same thing as having different people in and out on a daily basis, with no connection to or accountability to the community and one's neighbors. There's also just a raw market concern: using housing stock + AirBnB as an investment/storage for wealth has serious effects on the ability of people to live in these communities. The market is amoral; it's up to us to elect leaders who constrain it with rules that reflect our values.
  - sneak 5y ago
    What right do you have to use the threat of violence to constrain others with rules using a residential unit peacefully and in accordance with the safety/quiet enjoyment laws that govern normal, safe use of such space? To believe that you have some right to control the events in the home of another person (that doesn't affect you) is the part that, to me, is entirely amoral. There is no reasonable basis for it, in my view. Substitute "having boarders" with "having kinky/non-heteronormative sex" or any other thing the neighbors would object to that doesn't affect them and isn't their business to see where I'm coming from.
Telemakhos 5y ago
The last few times I went to Europe, my Europe-based GF made arrangements for our accommodations, and it was always AirBNB that she booked without knowing that she was doing so; many European AirBNB hosts apparently also book through other sites with "hotel" in the name. Regardless, they were far superior in quality to the hotel rooms we had shared, superior also in location, and equal if not superior in price. That makes me wonder why hotels offer much smaller rooms with fewer amenities for the same price. AirBNB only works because of that discrepancy—if hotels gave better value for the same price, people would prefer hotels.
- bgorman 5y ago
  Zoning laws. Airbnb only works because it is a workaround for allowing “hotels” to be in non-commercial areas.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    Not just zoning, AirBnBs (at least in the US, and I would assume the same is true elsewhere) often evade taxes, facility safety requirements, and other requirements generally applicable to commercial short-term rentals. As a result, on the things outside of those requirements, they can offer more at the same price.
  - bovine3dom 5y ago
    I think zoning, especially single-use zoning, is much less common outside of the US. So I don't think it accounts for the global success of AirBnB.
- vincnetas 5y ago
  Hotel prices have regulations included. Most airbnbs save on this. Some also mange to even avoid taxes, directly or by hiring illegal workers.
- Daho0n 5y ago
  It's because Airbnb (ab)use the same kind of hole in the law as Uber does. Hotels have to follow more rules and can't build a room in random buildings that happen to be available but build lots of rooms in huge buildings. The problem isn't hotels but that Airbnb isn't seen as hotels as they should be. Luckily some cities are waking up and stopping the abuse.
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[deleted]
- Numberwang 5y ago
  I have been staying in european airbnbs for the last couple of years. Most excellent. You are wrong.
Udik 5y ago
Airbnb has become synonymous with cheap tourism and overcrowded capitals, but is it correct to put the blame on it? Or it is simply cheap air travel and higher affluence (think of the entire eastern block of Europe, China, etc.) that brings so many people to the tourist hot spots? Is there any data to check what's Airbnb actual contribution?
- baq 5y ago
  airbnb is synonymous with short term tourist rental, which if unregulated leads to dissolution of whole neighborhoods, which get converted into defacto hotels with total disregard of regulation and zoning. those places become unlivable for long term residents. there's a reason hotels are hotels and not just apartments in some building. note i've never said cheap: in my city, airbnbs and hotels are about the same price in similar locations. if you think of all the ways you could make airbnb service better, you end up with a hotel, basically.
- thenaturalist 5y ago
  There are a several studies published for different countries. US: https://www.epi.org/publication/the-economic-costs-and-benefits-of-airbnb-no-reason-for-local-policymakers-to-let-airbnb-bypass-tax-or-regulatory-obligations/ https://www.epi.org/publication/the-economic-costs-and-benef... US: https://hbr.org/2019/04/research-when-airbnb-listings-in-a-city-increase-so-do-rent-prices https://hbr.org/2019/04/research-when-airbnb-listings-in-a-c... Barcelona: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0094119020300498 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009411902... Berlin: https://www.iamexpat.de/housing/real-estate-news/study-airbnb-driving-cost-apartments-berlin https://www.iamexpat.de/housing/real-estate-news/study-airbn...
adamsvystun 5y ago
People in the comments seem to be oversimplifying this, as the question itself is complex and interesting. Tourism can decrease housing supply, making is less affordable for long-term tenants. At the same time it can also increases city and local business revenues. This is a tradeoff that cities should consider and decide where they want to stand. Of course if you have unbounded house construction policy, than tourism would not effect long-term housing prices much (Though it can impact price distribution in terms of location). But such policy might be impossible in historical city centers such as Paris where buildings have historical value, and are probably one of the reasons for tourism in the first place. On the other hand, short-term housing, especially through things like Airbnb, can often be offered by people who just have a spare room and who otherwise would not bother renting it out. Allocating this type of housing to tourists might not hurt the housing market by a lot. (Though I do wonder what percentage of Airbnbs actually have such a situation)
- ErikVandeWater 5y ago
  > But such policy might be impossible in historical city centers such as Paris where buildings have historical value, and are probably one of the reasons for tourism in the first place. How many percent of buildings have any significant historical value? Maybe 2%?
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    Have specific historic value? Probably very few. But if they were replaced by generic high rises it would eliminate that Parisian feeling. They could let more people live in Venice by fixing the sinking and filling the canals, but that doesn't seem worth it.
    - ErikVandeWater 5y ago
      > if they were replaced by generic high rises That's a false dichotomy. New buildings could replace old buildings while maintaining the same style.
durnygbur 5y ago
Imagine than 10 years ago we had couchsurfing trying to promote hosting visitors free of charge. Adding a fee per night triggered a change in the entire real estate market.
- la_fayette 5y ago
  As I did a lot of couchsurfing in the past and used AirBnB from time to time, I think the goal of the platforms is somewhat different. At couchsurfing the rating of a person was quite important, if you had a good rating (which meant you hosted people and let them have a good time), the chance of beeing accepted at other couches was higher. Thus, beeing a good host, maximised your chances to having extraordinary travel experiences yourself at other couchsurfing places. Additionally, couchsurfing was a place to find likeminded people and even create friendships. At AirBnb your goal is to earn money and you don't care who is hosting you or who your guests are, as long as they follow the house rules.
quotemstr 5y ago
EU countries have a history of this kind of clumsy intervention in the market. The market is how we as a society value collectively decide which things are more valuable than others. If hosting on Airbnb is more profitable than traditional rental in a given market, that means that Airbnb is the more valuable use of limited land and building space. Who are these anti-Airbnb activists to decide that they know better than the market what's important? Our prosperity as a society depends on allocating scarce resources to their "highest and best" uses. Banning economic activity on the grounds of badfeels makes us all worse off.
- Dma54rhs 5y ago
  It's true on paper, but you would fight against me starting pumping oil in your backyard because it's economically much more useful than you having a nice quiet family friendly neighborhood. Airbnb has its benefits but it skips most of the regulations, zoning laws, often taxes etc.
- vidarh 5y ago
  They are people living in these places who care more about being able to live there than the market value. The notion of prosperity measured only by who can afford to pay the most is one that would make most of us miserable, to the extent that we've over time increasingly restricted what you can your way out of because of the massive harm it does to people. Consider that your body parts are scarce resources. Do you think the prosperity of society depends on them going to the highest bidder?
  - quotemstr 5y ago
    > They are people living in these places who care more about being able to live there than the market value. Then they can out-bid the Airbnb people. How much you pay is an expression of much you care. That's the whole point of having prices. Prices haven't done "harm" to people: they've given us the modern world!
    - foepys 5y ago
      Good joke. A retail worker outbidding a tourist who is prepared to spend a few hundreds on hotels for their yearly one week trip. Your strategy will only kill cities. Nobody but tourists and the very rich would be able to live there. Then the tourists would stop coming because everything is dirty and nobody sells anything, and then the city is dead.
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EdwinLarkin 5y ago
Airbnb should be simply banned.There's no way short term rental is any good for any city. That's what hotels with different price ranges are for.
- vidarh 5y ago
  If it's regulated to the same standard as hotels or B&B's, I don't see a problem. But of course if they're regulated to that standard, most of them will disappear.
  - EdwinLarkin 5y ago
    It cant be regulated to the same standard that's not possible by design. You have abnb units in private residencies.
arnvald 5y ago
This is not limited to cities and Airbnb, but it's a general trend that pushes cities and countries to figure out sustainability of tourism. There are other examples like islands where the tourist attractions were destroyed because of lack of regulations - Maya Bay in Thailand or Boracay island in Philippines were closed for extended periods of time. Now they need to figure out how to prevent the situations that led to those closures from happening again, and imposing some limits on number of tourists is one of the possibilities.

44 points by Quanttek 5y ago

gogopuppygogo 5y ago

Making travel less affordable... NIMBYISM creeps out of the shadows all over the place...

bushbaba 5y ago
Does it though? I’d assume that if supply is restricted. Demand goes down. Keeping prices relatively in check. E.g. if Greece is the same price as south of France. People would just go to France.
- jayparth 5y ago
  Perhaps. As someone who travels relatively infrequently, I'm pretty price insensitive. Like I'm traveling. Who cares if one of those locations is 20% cheaper? I wonder of many people are like me. I doubt that people are very price sensitive when visiting landmark cities.
- Aerroon 5y ago
  I've never been to France or Greece, but are they comparable destinations for a vacation? I was under the impression that a vacation in Athens will be warm and sunny, whereas Paris will likely be cloudy.
  - StavrosK 5y ago
    They probably meant the Mediterranean part of France (Marseille, Montpellier, etc), but yeah, that comparison seems a bit odd to me too.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- _rpd 5y ago
  > if supply is restricted. Demand goes down Luxury goods can behave oddly, but in general demand is independent of supply. Restricting supply causes prices to rise, which lowers demand (at that high price). The underlying demand (at the lower price) remains constant.
htaunay 5y ago
Travel less affordable to some, housing more affordable to others.
- StavrosK 5y ago
  Yes please. I'm tired of not being able to afford living in my own city.
  - baby 5y ago
    Is it really because of AirBnB?
    - StavrosK 5y ago
      I don't know, insofar as I don't have a view of who does what with each housing unit in the city, but I'd imagine to a large degree yes.
    - matkoniecz 5y ago
      Flats being rented on AirBnB is definitely competing with long term residents wishing to rent flats. What is more visible as due to COVID this flats become available for a normal rental. Obviously AirBnB, booking.com are only one of factors.
      - baby 5y ago
        > Flats being rented on AirBnB is definitely competing with long term residents wishing to rent flats. so are hotels, parking lots, malls, and everything else that take space right?
        pseudalopex 5y ago
        Those are regulated and taxed.
        baby 5y ago
femiagbabiaka 5y ago
Has Airbnb driven down the cost of hostels? Anyone looking for cheap travel would be making a mistake if they're using Airbnb IME.
- baby 5y ago
  > Anyone looking for cheap travel would be making a mistake if they're using Airbnb IME. Can you stay an entire month at a hostel? Usually not. It's also the end of the spectrum in terms of privacy, although there is couch surfing also.
  - padthai 5y ago
    You totally can. I have seen people living in them for months. To learn a language, or in party hostels to enjoy the summer. When I was young spending a few weeks in a hostel was my favorite way to spend time between house hunting in a new city.
    - baby 5y ago
      You totally cannot in many hostels, maybe it's a thing in the US but I've been to many hostels in the world and some will limit your stay to a few days.
      - pseudalopex 5y ago
        Just like AirBNB hosts.
        baby 5y ago
        At least there you have much more choices. I personally never ran into this doing airbnb.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    > Can you stay an entire month at a hostel? Usually not Yes, you can. You can probably negotiate a lower rate if you're staying that long or longer.
hatuio 5y ago
Hotels have to hold up hygiene, pay taxes and are regulated as to where and how many beds. Now people bought lifing flats and converted them to girls. Home > travel
pm90 5y ago
Prioritizing local vs temporary residents seems like the opposite of NIMBYism.

foolfoolz 5y ago

cities with strong tourism economy want to impose anti-tourism measures? how could this possibly play out

Daishiman 5y ago
Paris isn't making it's money from tourism, just like NY. There are other industries and inhabitants that the get displaced from the city if there's less rental property available. Tourism isn't a particularly profitable industry anyway.
coffeefirst 5y ago
With more small hotels popping up to accommodate the demand? AirBNB isn't essential, it's a middleman that provides booking and marketing. If the hammer came down and all they could do is list rentals that are actually legal, they'd wind up looking a lot like a better-designed Expedia. And honestly, that's probably fine.

baby 5y ago

I've spent the last 6 months doing airbnb hopping and I really need to find a way to share my experience. In a few words: it was amazing. We spent some time in San Diego, Hawaii, Arizona, Los Angeles, and Santa Barbara. If the vaccine wasn't here, we probably would have kept going east. I think the future will have a place for people who do not want to buy or rent a place long-term. #vanlife is already starting to spread throughout the world, but I think airbnb hopping will become much more prevalent as well. While there were downsides: we often didn't have friends in the places we visited, and we couldn't travel with all of our stuff -- the experiences and memories we've had made this a worthy thing to do. This is really something that I don't think would have been possible before AirBnB, the same way travelling the world wouldn't have been possible without the B2C'ization of flying.

romanovcode 5y ago
Yeah you do realise that most people are not techbros with 100+ salary and are affected by people like you and in some cases have no places to live becasue of airbnb taking flats from regular city dwellers?
- baby 5y ago
  I reject your theory. I think issues with housing come from the inability of cities to build more housing, the lack of rent-controlled places, and investors who buy housing and do not rent the place out. On the other hand people travelling with AirBnB are much much much more prone to visit the small businesses in the district and the city, eat out, etc.
  - StavrosK 5y ago
    The fact that X is not the only issue does not mean X is not an issue at all.
    - candiodari 5y ago
      It kind of does. Unless it is by far the biggest issue any slack in X created by legislation will only feed the biggest issue. The biggest issue in housing is governments blocking construction to enrich existing residents. Without fixing that, nothing can change. You can only create short-term slight easing.

amelius 5y ago

> The cities' mayors call for all rentals for a period under 30 days to be classed as touristic accommodation. But they could also be used by business travelers.

jseliger 5y ago

EU cities will do absolutely anything to lower housing prices except build more housing. https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/i-will-do-anything-to-end-homelessness-except-build-more-homes https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/i-will-do-anything-to-en...

StavrosK 5y ago
Which cities are forbidding new housing? There are new buildings being built in my city all the time, while (and probably because) property prices are skyrocketing. I would appreciate some references.
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[deleted]

lend000 5y ago

Whether you like it or not, the world is becoming more connected and global. If you don't like that, don't pretend that it's one company ruining the world for you. Just admit that you don't want to share your neighborhood with tourists.

matkoniecz 5y ago
I am happily admitting that! Though strictly speaking I have no problem with tourists (except hen parties/stag parties), I have problem with city spending more effort on keeping tourists happy than residents happy. And for example refusing to fix sidewalks and having funds to advertise city as a tourism destination. While hotels take over local cinemas, shops, apartments, restaurants and other objects used by local residents. Airbnb and similar is making it more problematic - as something that was constructed as apartments may easily turn into a de facto hotel. What is especially irritating for real residents in the same building.
stevehawk 5y ago
most of us also dont want home prices driven up by hedge funds and 2nd/3rd/4th mortgagers buying a house just to airbnb
- lend000 5y ago
  Ah, yes, the hedge funds, too. So many evil groups conspiring to ruin your weekend. What you describe is only profitable if lots of people want to travel to the destination and they can keep the properties busy (it's a lot of work). What I hear is "I don't like to travel as much as other people so I don't want to be inconvenienced by them, and I'd rather they don't get to travel."
  - jhrmnn 5y ago
    That residential property is increasingly bought as investment by both small and large players and this is one of the factors driving prices up is a fact. See for example Figure 1.3 here [open access] https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-11674-3_1 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-11674-3_...

sneak 5y ago

Why should cities have any authority to tell people what they are or aren't allowed to do in their own, paid-for apartments? This seems like the worst kind of "because we can" meddling. I could imagine if, say, someone were running a call center or mini-factory in their home; there is an argument (although one I do not make) for zoning. Simply using a residential unit or building for residing by people, however, shouldn't be any business of anyone but the people so residing or the people who own/rent the space.

switch007 5y ago
The kind of properties which are under debate are not detached farms in the countryside. They’re apartments with lots of close neighbours typically. Things are very close-nit in Europe. There are popular tv comedies about the trials and tribulations of living in apartments in European cities. Community living is taken very (some would say way too) seriously in many European countries. Honestly it’s very easy to find explanations of the problems from different perspectives if you google. (I’m on mobile)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
GavinMcG 5y ago
Residing isn't the same thing as having different people in and out on a daily basis, with no connection to or accountability to the community and one's neighbors. There's also just a raw market concern: using housing stock + AirBnB as an investment/storage for wealth has serious effects on the ability of people to live in these communities. The market is amoral; it's up to us to elect leaders who constrain it with rules that reflect our values.
- sneak 5y ago
  What right do you have to use the threat of violence to constrain others with rules using a residential unit peacefully and in accordance with the safety/quiet enjoyment laws that govern normal, safe use of such space? To believe that you have some right to control the events in the home of another person (that doesn't affect you) is the part that, to me, is entirely amoral. There is no reasonable basis for it, in my view. Substitute "having boarders" with "having kinky/non-heteronormative sex" or any other thing the neighbors would object to that doesn't affect them and isn't their business to see where I'm coming from.

Telemakhos 5y ago

The last few times I went to Europe, my Europe-based GF made arrangements for our accommodations, and it was always AirBNB that she booked without knowing that she was doing so; many European AirBNB hosts apparently also book through other sites with "hotel" in the name. Regardless, they were far superior in quality to the hotel rooms we had shared, superior also in location, and equal if not superior in price. That makes me wonder why hotels offer much smaller rooms with fewer amenities for the same price. AirBNB only works because of that discrepancy—if hotels gave better value for the same price, people would prefer hotels.

bgorman 5y ago
Zoning laws. Airbnb only works because it is a workaround for allowing “hotels” to be in non-commercial areas.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  Not just zoning, AirBnBs (at least in the US, and I would assume the same is true elsewhere) often evade taxes, facility safety requirements, and other requirements generally applicable to commercial short-term rentals. As a result, on the things outside of those requirements, they can offer more at the same price.
- bovine3dom 5y ago
  I think zoning, especially single-use zoning, is much less common outside of the US. So I don't think it accounts for the global success of AirBnB.
vincnetas 5y ago
Hotel prices have regulations included. Most airbnbs save on this. Some also mange to even avoid taxes, directly or by hiring illegal workers.
Daho0n 5y ago
It's because Airbnb (ab)use the same kind of hole in the law as Uber does. Hotels have to follow more rules and can't build a room in random buildings that happen to be available but build lots of rooms in huge buildings. The problem isn't hotels but that Airbnb isn't seen as hotels as they should be. Luckily some cities are waking up and stopping the abuse.

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Numberwang 5y ago
I have been staying in european airbnbs for the last couple of years. Most excellent. You are wrong.

Udik 5y ago

Airbnb has become synonymous with cheap tourism and overcrowded capitals, but is it correct to put the blame on it? Or it is simply cheap air travel and higher affluence (think of the entire eastern block of Europe, China, etc.) that brings so many people to the tourist hot spots? Is there any data to check what's Airbnb actual contribution?

baq 5y ago
airbnb is synonymous with short term tourist rental, which if unregulated leads to dissolution of whole neighborhoods, which get converted into defacto hotels with total disregard of regulation and zoning. those places become unlivable for long term residents. there's a reason hotels are hotels and not just apartments in some building. note i've never said cheap: in my city, airbnbs and hotels are about the same price in similar locations. if you think of all the ways you could make airbnb service better, you end up with a hotel, basically.
thenaturalist 5y ago
There are a several studies published for different countries. US: https://www.epi.org/publication/the-economic-costs-and-benefits-of-airbnb-no-reason-for-local-policymakers-to-let-airbnb-bypass-tax-or-regulatory-obligations/ https://www.epi.org/publication/the-economic-costs-and-benef... US: https://hbr.org/2019/04/research-when-airbnb-listings-in-a-city-increase-so-do-rent-prices https://hbr.org/2019/04/research-when-airbnb-listings-in-a-c... Barcelona: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0094119020300498 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009411902... Berlin: https://www.iamexpat.de/housing/real-estate-news/study-airbnb-driving-cost-apartments-berlin https://www.iamexpat.de/housing/real-estate-news/study-airbn...

adamsvystun 5y ago

People in the comments seem to be oversimplifying this, as the question itself is complex and interesting. Tourism can decrease housing supply, making is less affordable for long-term tenants. At the same time it can also increases city and local business revenues. This is a tradeoff that cities should consider and decide where they want to stand. Of course if you have unbounded house construction policy, than tourism would not effect long-term housing prices much (Though it can impact price distribution in terms of location). But such policy might be impossible in historical city centers such as Paris where buildings have historical value, and are probably one of the reasons for tourism in the first place. On the other hand, short-term housing, especially through things like Airbnb, can often be offered by people who just have a spare room and who otherwise would not bother renting it out. Allocating this type of housing to tourists might not hurt the housing market by a lot. (Though I do wonder what percentage of Airbnbs actually have such a situation)

ErikVandeWater 5y ago
> But such policy might be impossible in historical city centers such as Paris where buildings have historical value, and are probably one of the reasons for tourism in the first place. How many percent of buildings have any significant historical value? Maybe 2%?
- HWR_14 5y ago
  Have specific historic value? Probably very few. But if they were replaced by generic high rises it would eliminate that Parisian feeling. They could let more people live in Venice by fixing the sinking and filling the canals, but that doesn't seem worth it.
  - ErikVandeWater 5y ago
    > if they were replaced by generic high rises That's a false dichotomy. New buildings could replace old buildings while maintaining the same style.

durnygbur 5y ago

Imagine than 10 years ago we had couchsurfing trying to promote hosting visitors free of charge. Adding a fee per night triggered a change in the entire real estate market.

la_fayette 5y ago
As I did a lot of couchsurfing in the past and used AirBnB from time to time, I think the goal of the platforms is somewhat different. At couchsurfing the rating of a person was quite important, if you had a good rating (which meant you hosted people and let them have a good time), the chance of beeing accepted at other couches was higher. Thus, beeing a good host, maximised your chances to having extraordinary travel experiences yourself at other couchsurfing places. Additionally, couchsurfing was a place to find likeminded people and even create friendships. At AirBnb your goal is to earn money and you don't care who is hosting you or who your guests are, as long as they follow the house rules.

quotemstr 5y ago

EU countries have a history of this kind of clumsy intervention in the market. The market is how we as a society value collectively decide which things are more valuable than others. If hosting on Airbnb is more profitable than traditional rental in a given market, that means that Airbnb is the more valuable use of limited land and building space. Who are these anti-Airbnb activists to decide that they know better than the market what's important? Our prosperity as a society depends on allocating scarce resources to their "highest and best" uses. Banning economic activity on the grounds of badfeels makes us all worse off.

Dma54rhs 5y ago
It's true on paper, but you would fight against me starting pumping oil in your backyard because it's economically much more useful than you having a nice quiet family friendly neighborhood. Airbnb has its benefits but it skips most of the regulations, zoning laws, often taxes etc.
vidarh 5y ago
They are people living in these places who care more about being able to live there than the market value. The notion of prosperity measured only by who can afford to pay the most is one that would make most of us miserable, to the extent that we've over time increasingly restricted what you can your way out of because of the massive harm it does to people. Consider that your body parts are scarce resources. Do you think the prosperity of society depends on them going to the highest bidder?
- quotemstr 5y ago
  > They are people living in these places who care more about being able to live there than the market value. Then they can out-bid the Airbnb people. How much you pay is an expression of much you care. That's the whole point of having prices. Prices haven't done "harm" to people: they've given us the modern world!
  - foepys 5y ago
    Good joke. A retail worker outbidding a tourist who is prepared to spend a few hundreds on hotels for their yearly one week trip. Your strategy will only kill cities. Nobody but tourists and the very rich would be able to live there. Then the tourists would stop coming because everything is dirty and nobody sells anything, and then the city is dead.

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EdwinLarkin 5y ago

Airbnb should be simply banned.There's no way short term rental is any good for any city. That's what hotels with different price ranges are for.

vidarh 5y ago
If it's regulated to the same standard as hotels or B&B's, I don't see a problem. But of course if they're regulated to that standard, most of them will disappear.
- EdwinLarkin 5y ago
  It cant be regulated to the same standard that's not possible by design. You have abnb units in private residencies.

arnvald 5y ago

This is not limited to cities and Airbnb, but it's a general trend that pushes cities and countries to figure out sustainability of tourism. There are other examples like islands where the tourist attractions were destroyed because of lack of regulations - Maya Bay in Thailand or Boracay island in Philippines were closed for extended periods of time. Now they need to figure out how to prevent the situations that led to those closures from happening again, and imposing some limits on number of tourists is one of the possibilities.