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For anyone else wondering why this is notable: “Harris County Precinct 4 Constable Mark Herman told KPRC 2 that the investigation showed “no one was driving” t

For anyone else wondering why this is notable: “Harris County Precinct 4 Constable Mark Herman told KPRC 2 that the investigation showed “no one was driving” the fully-electric 2019 Tesla when the accident happened. There was a person in the passenger seat of the front of the car and in the rear passenger seat of the car.”

faitswulff 6y ago
I found this notable as well: > Authorities said they used 32,000 gallons of water over four hours to extinguish the flames because the vehicle’s batteries kept reigniting. At one point, Herman said, deputies had to call Tesla to ask them how to put out the fire in the battery.
- fallingknife 6y ago
  Some "authorities" they are. Took me about 5 seconds to find the answer. Not one person thought to Google it?
  - robin_reala 6y ago
    Maybe in a situation like that, going by the first search engine result isn’t the best idea?
    - mikestew 6y ago
      I would expect professionals to have this information in cache. I’ve been driving a production BEV for ten years, this isn’t exactly new-fangled.
    - fallingknife 6y ago
      Better than going with the first result out of your head (pour water on it) which is what they did.
      - camjohnson26 6y ago
        Which turns out to be the right answer.
  - jvolkman 6y ago
    The first result for my query says "copious amounts of water are recommended as the best means to extinguish a high voltage vehicle fire." What did you find?
    - fallingknife 6y ago
      https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=how+to+extinguish+a+lithium+battery+fire https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=how+to+...
      - jvolkman 6y ago
        I'm guessing those strategies work well for phones but maybe not cars which are absolutely enormous amounts of battery and possibly wrapped around a tree at the time of the fire. Here's what FEMA has to say (https://www.usfa.fema.gov/training/coffee_break/061819.html https://www.usfa.fema.gov/training/coffee_break/061819.html) Secure a large, continuous and sustainable water supply — one or more fire hydrants or multiple water tenders. Use a large volume of water such as master stream, 2 1/2-inch or multiple 1 3/4-inch fire lines to suppress and cool the fire and the battery.
        NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
        Right. A fire extinguisher is a "first aid" response to a fire. The kind of advice that's relevant to fire extinguisher usage is predicated on a small fire; general advice is that any fire larger than a small trash can is too big to fight with an extinguisher. The fire department plays from a different rule book.
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    So it seems pretty possible that they followed the standard procedure and it didn't work?
    - fallingknife 6y ago
      A lithium battery fire is considered a class B fire, so pouring water on it is not standard procedure. They should have known that in the first place, but if they had googled it, they would have found out very quickly anyway.
      - maxerickson 6y ago
        Tesla recommends spraying the battery with copious amounts of water. Read all about it: https://www.tesla.com/firstresponders https://www.tesla.com/firstresponders Lithium-ion is different than lithium… (my other comment is a question because I haven't seen any information about what procedures they did follow)
        fallingknife 6y ago
        My point it is 1. firefighters should know this already 2. if they didn't they could have googled it like you just did instead of having to wait around to get in touch with someone from Tesla
        maxerickson 6y ago
        Yes, my point is that a possible explanation for using 32,000 gallons and calling Tesla is that spraying 3,000 gallons on the battery did not successfully extinguish it.
        tzs 6y ago
        What you are overlooking is that the correct procedure as documented by Tesla, which is what the firefighters had been doing for four hours, did not stop the fire.
        exporectomy 6y ago
- Erik816 6y ago
  Fire departments are going to need to learn how to put out battery fires and have the relevant equipment available. If they are in the profession of putting out fires, at some point it's on them to know how to not waste 32,000 gallons of water as these vehicles become more common.
  - JKCalhoun 6y ago
    How do you put them out?
    - thatguy0900 6y ago
      From their own Manuel: FIREFIGHTING USE WATER TO FIGHT A HIGH VOLTAGE BATTERY FIRE. If the battery catches fire, is exposed to high heat, or is generating heat or gases, use large amounts of water to cool the battery. It can take approximately 3,000 gallons (11,356 liters) of water, applied directly to the battery, to fully extinguish and cool down a battery fire; always establish or request an additional water supply. If water is not immediately available, use dry chemicals, CO2, foam, or another typical fire-extinguishing agent to fight the fire until water is available. Apply water directly to the battery. If safety permits, lift or tilt the vehicle for more direct access to the battery. Apply water inside the battery ONLY if a natural opening (such as a vent or opening from a collision) already exists. Do not open the battery for the purpose of cooling it. Extinguish small fires that do not involve the high voltage battery using typical vehicle firefighting procedures. During overhaul, do not make contact with any high voltage components. Always use insulated tools for overhaul. Heat and flames can compromise airbag inflators, stored gas inflation cylinders, gas struts, and other components which can result in an unexpected explosion. Perform an adequate knock down before entering a hot zone. Battery fires can take up to 24 hours to extinguish. Consider allowing the battery to burn while protecting exposures. After all fire and smoke has visibly subsided, a thermal imaging camera can be used to actively measure the temperature of the high voltage battery and monitor the trend of heating or cooling. There must not be fire, smoke, or heating present in the high voltage battery for at least one hour before the vehicle can be released to second responders (such as law enforcement, vehicle transporters, etc.). The battery must be completely cooled before releasing the vehicle to second responders or otherwise leaving the incident. Always advise second responders that there is a risk of battery re-ignition. Second responders may choose to drain excess water out of the vehicle by tilting or repositioning it. This operation can assist in mitigating possible re-ignition. Due to potential re-ignition, a Model S that has been involved in a submersion, fire, or a collision that has compromised the high voltage battery should be stored in an open area at least 50 ft (15 m) from any exposure. Warning: When fire is involved, consider the entire vehicle energized. Always wear full PPE, including a SCBA.
bin_bash 6y ago
I’m confused how this is possible. I have a 2020 Tesla and you have to turn the wheel every couple of minutes while Autopilot is on otherwise it will just turn off after beeping a ton.
- spockz 6y ago
  It is perfectly possible to nudge the steering wheel from the passenger side.
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    Tesla has not thought of incorporating a sensor to ensure that someone is actually behind the wheel and not at the side of the wheel? I would find that unlikely.
    - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
      Well, you'd be mistaken. The only use the torque sensor in the steering wheel. There've been news articles with Tesla engineers asking for a better system, and Musk's explicit response was that technology like eye tracking or such would be ineffective.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - zaroth 6y ago
        AutoPilot will also disable if you unbuckle your seatbelt or lift your butt off the seat.
        jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
        It's easy to fool, and it appears these two folks were doing so deliberately.
- api 6y ago
gumby 6y ago
Rapture.
camjohnson26 6y ago
I’m sure the Tesla crowd will jump in to say this is driver error because Tesla has a disclaimer that the feature requires active driver supervision, but the problem has always been the marketing that causes users to over estimate the system’s capabilities. Musk says that autopilot is safer than human driven miles, but this is apples and oranges since the human driven miles include city driving and all models of car, which have much higher rates of accidents than luxury cars like Teslas. Full Self Driving’s marketing has been criminal. Tesla is trying to solve self driving without lidar, which it’s competitors are using. Waymo is way ahead of Tesla, but they create the illusion of being ahead by releasing features that are clearly extremely dangerous. This video is a little over the top but highlights the abuses of FSD marketing better than anything else I’ve seen: https://twitter.com/FinanceLancelot/status/1375289872756273152?s=20 https://twitter.com/FinanceLancelot/status/13752898727562731...
- ajross 6y ago
  I don't see how autopilot was involved here. This was a tiny cul de sac (the address is in the article). Autopilot simply won't achieve the kind of speeds needed to cause that collision. Frankly I agree with other posters here that the most likely scenario is that there was a human driver in the seemingly-undamaged drivers' seat who fled the scene. Absent that, you'd have to play games with launch mode or some kind of device to press the accellerator. You just can't do this with autopilot as I see it.
  - camjohnson26 6y ago
    If so the investigators on the scene are wrong, from the article: “Herman said authorities believe no one else was in the car and that it burst into flames immediately. He said it he believes it wasn’t being driven by a human. Harris County Constable Precinct 4 deputies said the vehicle was traveling at a high speed when it failed to negotiate a cul-de-sac turn, ran off the road and hit the tree.”
    - ajross 6y ago
      Again, that scenario (taking a high speed turn in a cul-de-sac) just doesn't correspond to any known accessible autopilot behavior. Given the choice between "initial investigation was wrong" and "heretofore unseen high speed residential driving by autopilot" (also "non-autopilot driving from passenger seat" probably needs to be in the list), I know which way Occam points. To be glib: if you could get the car to drive itself at 60mph+ on a residential street, that shit would be all over youtube.
Black101 6y ago
Also: > Authorities said they used 32,000 gallons of water to extinguish the flames because the vehicle’s batteries kept reigniting. At one point, Herman said, deputies had to call Tesla to ask them how to put out the fire in the battery.
- sbassi 6y ago
  https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2020_Lithium-Ion_Battery_Emergency_Response_Guide_en.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2020_Lit...
  - Black101 6y ago
    lol: > Tesla’s recommendation is to fight a Tesla Energy Product fire defensively. The fire crew should maintain a safe distance and allow the battery to burn itself out.
NoPicklez 6y ago
How the heck was the car driving itself with nobody in the drivers seat? Surely that's a minimal requirement the car must pass before it engages autopilot.
- bostonsre 6y ago
  I've been wondering about that too.. could have sworn that was the case. The front end damage from the tree looks minimal, have been wondering if the driver was drunk, the car crashed, he didn't think it was going to burst into flames, so he got in the back seat and buckled in to try to avoid getting arrested. Or maybe they were screwing around and the driver changed seats, then it crashed?
  - NoPicklez 6y ago
    That seems fairly plausible, the driver got into the backseat hoping that it could be claimed they weren't actually driving.
- mlindner 6y ago
  It's not physically possible. The car can't be operated with no one in the driver's seat. Autopilot shuts off automatically. Further, it was in a cul-de-sac, some place autopilot doesn't operate.
mlindner 6y ago
It's not physically possible. The car can't be operated with no one in the driver's seat. Autopilot shuts off automatically.

faitswulff 6y ago

I found this notable as well: > Authorities said they used 32,000 gallons of water over four hours to extinguish the flames because the vehicle’s batteries kept reigniting. At one point, Herman said, deputies had to call Tesla to ask them how to put out the fire in the battery.

fallingknife 6y ago
Some "authorities" they are. Took me about 5 seconds to find the answer. Not one person thought to Google it?
- robin_reala 6y ago
  Maybe in a situation like that, going by the first search engine result isn’t the best idea?
  - mikestew 6y ago
    I would expect professionals to have this information in cache. I’ve been driving a production BEV for ten years, this isn’t exactly new-fangled.
  - fallingknife 6y ago
    Better than going with the first result out of your head (pour water on it) which is what they did.
    - camjohnson26 6y ago
      Which turns out to be the right answer.
- jvolkman 6y ago
  The first result for my query says "copious amounts of water are recommended as the best means to extinguish a high voltage vehicle fire." What did you find?
  - fallingknife 6y ago
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=how+to+extinguish+a+lithium+battery+fire https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=how+to+...
    - jvolkman 6y ago
      I'm guessing those strategies work well for phones but maybe not cars which are absolutely enormous amounts of battery and possibly wrapped around a tree at the time of the fire. Here's what FEMA has to say (https://www.usfa.fema.gov/training/coffee_break/061819.html https://www.usfa.fema.gov/training/coffee_break/061819.html) Secure a large, continuous and sustainable water supply — one or more fire hydrants or multiple water tenders. Use a large volume of water such as master stream, 2 1/2-inch or multiple 1 3/4-inch fire lines to suppress and cool the fire and the battery.
      - NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
        Right. A fire extinguisher is a "first aid" response to a fire. The kind of advice that's relevant to fire extinguisher usage is predicated on a small fire; general advice is that any fire larger than a small trash can is too big to fight with an extinguisher. The fire department plays from a different rule book.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  So it seems pretty possible that they followed the standard procedure and it didn't work?
  - fallingknife 6y ago
    A lithium battery fire is considered a class B fire, so pouring water on it is not standard procedure. They should have known that in the first place, but if they had googled it, they would have found out very quickly anyway.
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      Tesla recommends spraying the battery with copious amounts of water. Read all about it: https://www.tesla.com/firstresponders https://www.tesla.com/firstresponders Lithium-ion is different than lithium… (my other comment is a question because I haven't seen any information about what procedures they did follow)
      - fallingknife 6y ago
        My point it is 1. firefighters should know this already 2. if they didn't they could have googled it like you just did instead of having to wait around to get in touch with someone from Tesla
        maxerickson 6y ago
        Yes, my point is that a possible explanation for using 32,000 gallons and calling Tesla is that spraying 3,000 gallons on the battery did not successfully extinguish it.
        tzs 6y ago
        What you are overlooking is that the correct procedure as documented by Tesla, which is what the firefighters had been doing for four hours, did not stop the fire.
        exporectomy 6y ago
Erik816 6y ago
Fire departments are going to need to learn how to put out battery fires and have the relevant equipment available. If they are in the profession of putting out fires, at some point it's on them to know how to not waste 32,000 gallons of water as these vehicles become more common.
- JKCalhoun 6y ago
  How do you put them out?
  - thatguy0900 6y ago
    From their own Manuel: FIREFIGHTING USE WATER TO FIGHT A HIGH VOLTAGE BATTERY FIRE. If the battery catches fire, is exposed to high heat, or is generating heat or gases, use large amounts of water to cool the battery. It can take approximately 3,000 gallons (11,356 liters) of water, applied directly to the battery, to fully extinguish and cool down a battery fire; always establish or request an additional water supply. If water is not immediately available, use dry chemicals, CO2, foam, or another typical fire-extinguishing agent to fight the fire until water is available. Apply water directly to the battery. If safety permits, lift or tilt the vehicle for more direct access to the battery. Apply water inside the battery ONLY if a natural opening (such as a vent or opening from a collision) already exists. Do not open the battery for the purpose of cooling it. Extinguish small fires that do not involve the high voltage battery using typical vehicle firefighting procedures. During overhaul, do not make contact with any high voltage components. Always use insulated tools for overhaul. Heat and flames can compromise airbag inflators, stored gas inflation cylinders, gas struts, and other components which can result in an unexpected explosion. Perform an adequate knock down before entering a hot zone. Battery fires can take up to 24 hours to extinguish. Consider allowing the battery to burn while protecting exposures. After all fire and smoke has visibly subsided, a thermal imaging camera can be used to actively measure the temperature of the high voltage battery and monitor the trend of heating or cooling. There must not be fire, smoke, or heating present in the high voltage battery for at least one hour before the vehicle can be released to second responders (such as law enforcement, vehicle transporters, etc.). The battery must be completely cooled before releasing the vehicle to second responders or otherwise leaving the incident. Always advise second responders that there is a risk of battery re-ignition. Second responders may choose to drain excess water out of the vehicle by tilting or repositioning it. This operation can assist in mitigating possible re-ignition. Due to potential re-ignition, a Model S that has been involved in a submersion, fire, or a collision that has compromised the high voltage battery should be stored in an open area at least 50 ft (15 m) from any exposure. Warning: When fire is involved, consider the entire vehicle energized. Always wear full PPE, including a SCBA.

bin_bash 6y ago

I’m confused how this is possible. I have a 2020 Tesla and you have to turn the wheel every couple of minutes while Autopilot is on otherwise it will just turn off after beeping a ton.

spockz 6y ago
It is perfectly possible to nudge the steering wheel from the passenger side.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  Tesla has not thought of incorporating a sensor to ensure that someone is actually behind the wheel and not at the side of the wheel? I would find that unlikely.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
    Well, you'd be mistaken. The only use the torque sensor in the steering wheel. There've been news articles with Tesla engineers asking for a better system, and Musk's explicit response was that technology like eye tracking or such would be ineffective.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - zaroth 6y ago
      AutoPilot will also disable if you unbuckle your seatbelt or lift your butt off the seat.
      - jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
        It's easy to fool, and it appears these two folks were doing so deliberately.
api 6y ago

gumby 6y ago

Rapture.

camjohnson26 6y ago

I’m sure the Tesla crowd will jump in to say this is driver error because Tesla has a disclaimer that the feature requires active driver supervision, but the problem has always been the marketing that causes users to over estimate the system’s capabilities. Musk says that autopilot is safer than human driven miles, but this is apples and oranges since the human driven miles include city driving and all models of car, which have much higher rates of accidents than luxury cars like Teslas. Full Self Driving’s marketing has been criminal. Tesla is trying to solve self driving without lidar, which it’s competitors are using. Waymo is way ahead of Tesla, but they create the illusion of being ahead by releasing features that are clearly extremely dangerous. This video is a little over the top but highlights the abuses of FSD marketing better than anything else I’ve seen: https://twitter.com/FinanceLancelot/status/1375289872756273152?s=20 https://twitter.com/FinanceLancelot/status/13752898727562731...

ajross 6y ago
I don't see how autopilot was involved here. This was a tiny cul de sac (the address is in the article). Autopilot simply won't achieve the kind of speeds needed to cause that collision. Frankly I agree with other posters here that the most likely scenario is that there was a human driver in the seemingly-undamaged drivers' seat who fled the scene. Absent that, you'd have to play games with launch mode or some kind of device to press the accellerator. You just can't do this with autopilot as I see it.
- camjohnson26 6y ago
  If so the investigators on the scene are wrong, from the article: “Herman said authorities believe no one else was in the car and that it burst into flames immediately. He said it he believes it wasn’t being driven by a human. Harris County Constable Precinct 4 deputies said the vehicle was traveling at a high speed when it failed to negotiate a cul-de-sac turn, ran off the road and hit the tree.”
  - ajross 6y ago
    Again, that scenario (taking a high speed turn in a cul-de-sac) just doesn't correspond to any known accessible autopilot behavior. Given the choice between "initial investigation was wrong" and "heretofore unseen high speed residential driving by autopilot" (also "non-autopilot driving from passenger seat" probably needs to be in the list), I know which way Occam points. To be glib: if you could get the car to drive itself at 60mph+ on a residential street, that shit would be all over youtube.

Black101 6y ago

Also: > Authorities said they used 32,000 gallons of water to extinguish the flames because the vehicle’s batteries kept reigniting. At one point, Herman said, deputies had to call Tesla to ask them how to put out the fire in the battery.

sbassi 6y ago
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2020_Lithium-Ion_Battery_Emergency_Response_Guide_en.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2020_Lit...
- Black101 6y ago
  lol: > Tesla’s recommendation is to fight a Tesla Energy Product fire defensively. The fire crew should maintain a safe distance and allow the battery to burn itself out.

NoPicklez 6y ago

How the heck was the car driving itself with nobody in the drivers seat? Surely that's a minimal requirement the car must pass before it engages autopilot.

bostonsre 6y ago
I've been wondering about that too.. could have sworn that was the case. The front end damage from the tree looks minimal, have been wondering if the driver was drunk, the car crashed, he didn't think it was going to burst into flames, so he got in the back seat and buckled in to try to avoid getting arrested. Or maybe they were screwing around and the driver changed seats, then it crashed?
- NoPicklez 6y ago
  That seems fairly plausible, the driver got into the backseat hoping that it could be claimed they weren't actually driving.
mlindner 6y ago
It's not physically possible. The car can't be operated with no one in the driver's seat. Autopilot shuts off automatically. Further, it was in a cul-de-sac, some place autopilot doesn't operate.

mlindner 6y ago

It's not physically possible. The car can't be operated with no one in the driver's seat. Autopilot shuts off automatically.