22 ms·

Psilocybin 'promising' for depression

304 points by aluket 6y ago

Gatsky 6y ago
The study was just published in the most prestigious medical journal in the world [1]. Whatever you think of the study, this is rather significant. If you told me even 2 years ago there would be a randomised trial of magic mushrooms in NEJM, I would not have believed it for even a second. One point not to miss is that they screened 1000 patients to come up with the study population of 59. Nevertheless, I consider the study result quite promising, considering patients only had 2 doses of psilocybin. [1] https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994
- ButtSpark69 6y ago
  "If you told me even 2 years ago there would be a randomised trial of magic mushrooms in NEJM, I would not have believed it for even a second." In a lot of ways, that's completely depressing for how slowly we've come as a species.
  - refurb 6y ago
    Wait until you learn some history about how regressed!
  - sneak 6y ago
    I agree wholeheartedly, Mister ButtSpark69. For all our civilization's progress, we still have so far to go.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - o_p 6y ago
    Maybe some mushrooms could help you with that
  - Fricken 6y ago
    "The species" has been using psychedelics in religious ceremonies for a long time. We're just out of the loop.
    - heavyset_go 6y ago
      > "The species" has been using psychedelics in religious ceremonies for a long time. Arguably for thousands of years, as well.
- philshem 6y ago
  Due to the stigma of psychedelics, there has been a long gap in research, which may have started with 1962 "Good Friday Experiment" > Almost all of the members of the experimental group reported experiencing profound religious experiences, providing empirical support for the notion that psychedelic drugs can facilitate religious experiences. One of the participants in the experiment was religious scholar Huston Smith, who would become an author of several textbooks on comparative religion. He later described his experience as "the most powerful cosmic homecoming I have ever experienced". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - petemir 6y ago
    For a complete story about psychedelic research I recommend “How to Change Your Mind” by Michael Pollan.
- mrwww 6y ago
  2 doses of psilocybin, vs 6 weeks of SSRI's..! They also seem to cite a big difference in lasting happiness, altough that wasnt the focus of the study.
  - varispeed 6y ago
    You can clearly see why psilocybin is illegal. Follow the money... I hope one day the companies and people behind this will go to jail.
  - GordonS 5y ago
    And some folks have a really tough time coming off SSRIs too, with bad withdrawal symptoms (extreme anxiety, panic attacks, tremor, hallucinations, memory loss, confusion...) even when tapering over several weeks.
- say_it_as_it_is 6y ago
  The definition of treatment resistant depression is one of the filters that narrows down the list. A subject must have tried at least two different antidepressants for a certain length of time and within the last few years, in addition to therapy. So, someone who has taken antidepressants for years doesn't automatically qualify.
  - varispeed 6y ago
    This is crazy. It's like cart manufacturers lobbied government that anyone who want to buy a car would first have to use a horse and a cart and only be allowed to buy a car if the cart and a horse causes significant problem. Am I the only one seeing corruption here?
    - rincebrain 6y ago
      If your attempted argument is "X helps people who are not helped by other existing treatments", then limiting your selection criteria to those who have tried several existing treatments and not found success seems to follow logically. (Though the study's construction seems to fail at that argument, since the claim is that all patients, both those given the psilocybin and those given the SSRI, improved markedly.)
      - varispeed 6y ago
        When I wrote that, I had in mind a situation in my country that you can be eligible for private medical cannabis prescription if you try at least two other treatments and you find them ineffective. On the surface it doesn't sound too sinister, but for example, when it comes to chronic pain the drugs that are being given are simply nasty. I still have nightmares about the side effects that I experienced (vivid hallucinations, suicidal thoughts, derealization and more). Given how ubiquitous cannabis is, people with various problems often find, including chronic pain, that it helps massively and unfortunately they cannot bypass going through hell just to get prescription for what helps. They cannot even suggest that they look for medicinal cannabis as they still may be branded as drug seekers and be denied treatment altogether.
- loceng 6y ago
  "One point not to miss is that they screened 1000 patients to come up with the study population of 59." I'd be curious how many 10,000s if not 100,000s of people pharmaceutical companies go through, along with changing/crafting their selection criteria to keep out people/symptoms they know have more/strong "side"/harmful effects with, until they get acceptable looking results; propaganda using truth - "Misleading with true fact" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lls_2tfWcUI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lls_2tfWcUI
- bigfudge 6y ago
  >they screened 1000 patients to come up with the study population of 59 Note that while not ideal this is completely normal for any early stage drug trial. Most drugs get licenced based on data in which the trials would have excluded 90%+ of the typical clinical population. This is certainly true in depression where most drug trials will exclude patients with comorbid MH conditions, and often exclude them for "too many previous episodes". But it's also true in physical health (e.g. asthma). I'm sure it's even harder when recruiting for an RCT in psychedelics though. A friend was working on clinical applications of MDMA about 15 years ago and a stipulation of the ethics board was that her participants had to have taken MDMA at least 3 times before, but not more than 10 times. Not easy to recruit for that study!
adammunich 6y ago
Old news is news I see
- diimdeep 6y ago
  This 'news' is scheduled 'blogspam', this article links to prev. article with exactly the same premise and that posted exactly 1 month earlier (15 april, 15 march), while both based on ~2018 research. Moving on.
  - tpm 6y ago
    No, it's based on an article that just came out in NEJM: Trial of Psilocybin versus Escitalopram for Depression https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994
    - diimdeep 6y ago
      > dii ok, thanks for correcting me.
internetslave 6y ago
I’m going to cluster HN news stories by topic and then write a script to filter the same content out.
- jeromenerf 6y ago
  French call this kind of repetitive, easy to write and not worth reading articles "marronniers" (literally "chestnut tree"), supposedly because some famous tree was worth an annual subject. In case you need to name your project :) On the other hand, I would prefer to filter out the comments marronniers. You know, the mushroom anecdotes, the quality of the Mac trackpad, ...
  - hyper_dynamics 6y ago
    Can't say much of the mushrooms, but the Mac trackpad is so good, it made me write this comment ;)
satellite2 6y ago
It seems the design of this study is questionable. Since they couldn't blind the psylocybin group from the effect, they gave 1mg daily to the SSRI group. Basically it's a study that compares psylocybin with SSRI + psylocybin micro dosing. They claim that the micro dose don't have an effect, but there is not a large body of evidence to support that claim.
- 8192kjshad09- 6y ago
  Wouldn't the study design under exaggerate the effect of psilocybin, if anything?
  - jxding 6y ago
    To be a little pedantic, I'm not sure "under exaggerate" is a valid phrase. What you're looking for may be "under-report"?
- qntty 6y ago
  The 1 mg dose wasn't daily, it was 3 weeks apart. From the study: Patients were assigned in a 1:1 ratio to receive two separate doses of 25 mg of psilocybin 3 weeks apart plus 6 weeks of daily placebo (psilocybin group) or two separate doses of 1 mg of psilocybin 3 weeks apart plus 6 weeks of daily oral escitalopram (escitalopram group); all the patients received psychological support. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
simonswords82 6y ago
I have a friend who has experienced magic mushrooms recreationally about half a dozen times in her 20s. After each trip she reported feeling clear headed and more mindful - she described it as though her mind's harddrive had been defragmented. Fast forward 10 years and that same friend felt low during lockdown over the past 12 months. After reading up online she decided to try microdosing mushrooms rather than the mainstream route her doctor would prescribe - anti depressants. She has been taking a tiny dose every other day and feels immeasurably better. More optimistic about the future. More energy. More focus. Less sad. To say it's frustrating to read these official press releases about the positive impact of mushrooms nearly 20 years after she discovered them for the first time is the understatement of a lifetime. I'm convinced we'll look back at this era as a form of prohibition on drugs that governments threw down as a wide blanket and ultimately society was worse off for.
- jack_riminton 6y ago
  This is my experience too. I’ve been microdosing about 1.3mg on and off during lockdown. The effects are subtle and hard to describe but I’d say it’s like ‘opening your mind’ or reframing your point of view on things. Definitely different from other drugs which just pump you with serotonin
  - anonporridge 6y ago
    It temporarily breaks you out of your established mental framework. It's as if your raw consciousness viewing the world without any of the filters that we all use to tune out the noise. That's why the experience can be overwhelming and chaotic and it's useful to be in a safe place with a trip sitter. I think the magic comes when you discover that something your default mindset was filtering out as noise is actually signal. With that insight, you can more easily make changes to your sober mindset.
    - agent008t 6y ago
      That is interesting. So it is a bit like reducing your attention, and expanding awareness? What you described sounds very similar to the effects of mindfulness meditation. The idea in a sense is to increase awareness - that is, sensing the world as is, without the filters or influence of mental objects. The theory is that meditation can then help you free yourself of past negative conditioning that is no longer relevant and to be more present. It would be interesting to see more studies on both, but I understand that many things to do with the mind and subjective experiences are difficult to measure and therefore to study.
ceilingcorner 6y ago
I don’t want to live in a world where the solution to depression (caused by governments, politicians, or general existence in the modern capitalist world) is a drug. Not a good idea. Instead, figure out why depression has increased so dramatically in the last ~century and address that.
- pengaru 6y ago
  I don't want to live in a world where how you want the world to look affects my freedom to eat certain foods.
  - ceilingcorner 6y ago
    Nowhere did I say that prohibition is a good idea. The article isn’t about that, it’s about using drugs to “cure” depression.
    - DoreenMichele 6y ago
      In cases where depression is caused by whackadoodle brain chemistry, this might actually be a completely reasonable answer.
      - ceilingcorner 6y ago
        Yes probably, but the most upvoted example in this topic is about curing depression from lockdowns. I don’t want to live in a world where the cure to depression caused by forced lockdowns is to take psychedelics. That seems very dystopian.
        DoreenMichele 6y ago
        What causes depression during lockdown? Is it lack of exposure to sunlight? Is it lack of exercise? Is it eating more poorly? Is it people being confined to spaces that may not be that clean that they normally leave during the day, thus exposing them to more mold and germs? It isn't necessarily dystopian. It may still be a valid and genuine treatment, though I agree it would be better to understand more thoroughly why it works, not just that it works. A former medical professional once told me "The answers you want for how this OTC drug works at the cellular level don't exist. That isn't actually what drug studies cover." I don't disagree with your aims. I simply disagree with some of your implicit assumptions.
flyGuyOnTheSly 6y ago
Ingesting Magic Mushrooms definitely makes me feel better. I have been micro dosing for months now and loving it.
- mikkelam 6y ago
  could just be placebo https://elifesciences.org/articles/62878 https://elifesciences.org/articles/62878
philshem 6y ago
Due to recent decriminalizations and booming medical research, there are also some publicly traded companies one can invest in: https://psychedelicinvest.com/index/ https://psychedelicinvest.com/index/ https://www.horizonsetfs.com/etf/psyk https://www.horizonsetfs.com/etf/psyk (disclaimer: I own shares in many of these companies)
- yreg 6y ago
  For more discussion on this topic there is /r/shroomstocks[0] And PsilocybinAlpha[1] monitors companies in the sector. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/shroomstocks/ https://www.reddit.com/r/shroomstocks/ [1] https://psilocybinalpha.com/ https://psilocybinalpha.com/
  - philshem 6y ago
    > This community is available in the app https://i.reddit.com/r/shroomstocks/ https://i.reddit.com/r/shroomstocks/ https://old.reddit.com/r/shroomstocks/ https://old.reddit.com/r/shroomstocks/
- high_priest 6y ago
  In a gist, how would one go about making such investment? Should I talk to a pro broker?
  - t1mmen 6y ago
    Most of the tickers are traded on Canadian exchanges (NEO, TSX.V, CSE). If you’re in the US, I believe Interactive Brokers (and others) will let you buy stocks at these exchanges. You can do all this self-directed, no need to involve a processional. If your current broker doesn’t allow Canadian venture/OTC stocks, $CMPS is the only ticker traded on NASDAQ so far. $MMED is expected to uplist to NASDAQ in the near future.
- CabSauce 6y ago
  Just mild warning for folks considering this. These companies are highly speculative. (They're also mostly down 20-30% in the last couple months.)
vlunkr 6y ago
On the one hand, HN is terrified of brain-computer interfaces manipulating our brains and emotions, on the other hand, they're totally psyched about using mushrooms to do the same thing.
- FPGAhacker 6y ago
  We are not a homogenous group.
- phito 6y ago
  It's not even remotely the same thing. One is a chemical compound that temporarly messes with the way your brain work, the other is an permanent (?) extension to your brain that allows to manipulate it from the outside. Also, HN is not one person with a single opinion.
- anonporridge 6y ago
  I can't realistically automate the brain manipulation of millions of people taking mushrooms in a short period of time from the comfort of my evil lair.
- krageon 6y ago
  If you're going to be this reductive about things, you might as well say every antidepressant and apparently also psilocybin does the exact same thing. Of course, being that reductive isn't useful and ignores a lot of the nuance that actually exists around the subject. Much like what you're saying.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Mushrooms don't have an agenda. The owner of the brain-computer interface probably does.
  - alexilliamson 6y ago
    The jury is out on that. There are mushrooms that infect ants' brains and make them travel to a high place before the ant's head explodes, so that the spores are carried further by the wind. They might have an agenda.
abgr-y 6y ago
I don't believe drugs whether prescribed or recreational can cure Mental disorders. yes they may alleviate the symptoms but they don't really work on the root cause which are basically ones mental tendencies, thought patterns or habits acquired over a period of time. here[0] is a different take on what depression is and gives a high level road map to come out of it, for more details this [1] is a book by the same author and for testing out if those methods work here is an app [2] again from the same monk. p.s i have followed all three & i must say the quality of life has improved considerably [0] https://os.me/depression-definition-cause-and-cure/ https://os.me/depression-definition-cause-and-cure/ [1] https://www.amazon.in/When-All-Not-Well-Perspective-ebook/dp/B01FTU7ED6 https://www.amazon.in/When-All-Not-Well-Perspective-ebook/dp... [2] https://www.blacklotus.app/ https://www.blacklotus.app/
- lifeisstillgood 6y ago
  Perhaps, but it is a lot easier to take long term action on your mental tendencies if you don't feel the blackness closing in every second. We have a long century ahead of us to pull out of the mental health slump we are seeing (similar perhaps to the physical health slumps following industrialisation). We will need many tools in the kit.
  - mensetmanusman 6y ago
    Interesting perspective that large societal shifts account for shifts in the type of health outcomes. One problem I see is that if people are too tied to their subjective well-being, then it is a frame of mind that can never be satisfied.
- jack_riminton 6y ago
  But that’s exactly what psychedelics do, they rewire the brain. In neuroscience terms they disrupt the default mode network. In other words they open your mind up and allow it to break free of the tendencies, thought patterns and habits. This is why they’re more akin to therapy than recreational drugs
- beambot 6y ago
Geee 6y ago
Are psychedelics connected to dreaming? I mean, maybe dreams are supposed to somehow reset or recalibrate brains, but on some people it's not working for some reason. Also, there's a connection of what you eat and what you dream, so my wild hypothesis is that gut bacteria is responsible for recalibrating your brain during sleep. There's also quite strong evidence for correlation between gut bacteria and mental health. Somehow these are connected. Also, exercise, especially running has a mental health effect. Maybe it just mixes your gut bacteria.
- elisaado 6y ago
  The following is anecdotal, but many people report more vivid dreams after recreational use of LSD.
alexf95 6y ago
I feel like there will also people that have way too many prejudices towards these kinds of "drugs" because that's simply how we learned it. "Don't take drugs kids". These studies are very helpful especially when shared over general media, but the consumption has to be supervised and controlled to not have overdoses and ruin the whole reputation again. It should be treated like any other anti-depressant, since they are just "drugs" in the end
- dannyw 6y ago
  We need to change the message from "don't take drugs" to "if you choose to take drugs, take them responsibly". Start with low doses, don't mix (alcohol,benzo,opiates), and remember that unless taken therapeutically, drugs should be an occasional party thing and not an escapism for life. It's also totally fine to not do drugs. I'm going sober (except a beer or two) for an indefinite period of time, just because that's what I feel like. Maybe I'll go on a mushroom trip for new years eve, who knows, but drugs shouldn't define your life.
  - PragmaticPulp 6y ago
    > We need to change the message from "don't take drugs" to "if you choose to take drugs, take them responsibly". The phrase for this is “harm reduction” and it has been around for a few decades in the pro-drug communities. The challenge is that harm reduction material is largely targeted at avoiding overdoses or fatal combinations as you mentioned, which can give users a false sense of confidence about their ability to avoid addiction. I’ve watched a couple close acquaintances slowly decline over time due to what they thought was responsible drug use. You can do all the right things and still end up addicted to and dependent upon addictive drugs. Fortunately they were both able to afford rehabilitation programs that got them back on track. I visited one of them in the rehab program. The price tag was high so selection bias was obviously at play, but it was interesting to see that every person there was also an adult professional who thought they were smart enough and self-educated enough about drugs to avoid succumbing to addiction, which was clearly not the case. I don’t have any answers or solutions to the topic, but I do know that addiction is a risk that most addicts seem to downplay at the start of their experiences. Few people go into drug habits expecting to become dependent. Perhaps more interesting is the uptick in people addicted to psychedelics, partially driven by the growing perception that they’re not addictive. It seems that these patients aren’t addicted in the traditional sense of becoming dependent, but they get hooked on the escapism aspect or the idea that they’re just one or two trips away from a major epiphany. Not all of the rewiring that takes place in these experiences is necessarily in a healthy direction. It can happen, so people should at least be aware of it.
collyw 6y ago
Here in Europe someone gave politicians the idea that they could control a virus. So now we have arbitrary sets of restrictions applied when case numbers of coronavirus go up. If case numbers go down again, they get relaxed. If they go up, add more restrictions are added until they go down. The restrictions are follow the case numbers, but we have convinced ourselves it is the other way around. It's a modern day witchcraft.
- krageon 6y ago
  Measures to contain COVID-19 exist globally and if you have great cosmic insight into the fact that they don't work, perhaps you could share that instead of sarcasm without any basis.
  - theelous3 6y ago
    They are saying they do work, but only when they are implemented. They are unimplemented when the numbers get low, which causes them to go back up, and has the effect of starting the cycle again.
    - dTal 6y ago
      No, they are saying that lockdowns do nothing and any appearance that they do is backwards causality: "restrictions are follow[sic] the case numbers, but we have convinced ourselves it is the other way around". They're wrong, but that's what they're saying.
      - krageon 6y ago
        This is also what I read in it, which I found a little strange of a stance given what we know works for the flu.
      - collyw 6y ago
        I didn't say they do nothing, lockdowns clearly cause massive harm and suffering yet there is no obvious benefit when compared to places that didn't lock down. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-84092-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-84092-1
lostmsu 6y ago
Judging by studies on long term use of other mind-altering drugs, I would expect psilocybin to similarly cause decline in cognitive abilities after prolonged use. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), I could not find studies on effect of specifically psilocybin on cognitive abilities. And please, don't bring up EmoIQ and other non-reasoning related stuff. This is not what the concern is about.
- cyberlab 6y ago
  If anything shrooms would be contributing to neurogenesis[0] not destroying brain cells. Opposite to alcohol which is well known to destroy brain cells. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurogenesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurogenesis
  - lostmsu 6y ago
    I see you share the sentiment. Well, > Injection of PSOP, 25I-NBMeO or ketanserin resulted in significant dose-dependent decreases in number of newborn neurons in hippocampus > At the low doses of PSOP that enhanced extinction, neurogenesis was not decreased, but rather tended toward an increase (in mice) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23727882/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23727882/ The way I read it large doses definitely decrease neurogenesis and low doses look like they slightly increase, but the authors are uncertain. That putting aside that neurogenesis changes caused by the substance might be affecting the actual intelligence either way.
fighterpilot 6y ago
> In a phase 2, double-blind, randomized, controlled trial It seems like you can't blind the participants in this case? It should be obvious if you're getting the treatment because psilocybin is a hallucinogen, unless they're giving such a small dose that it reliably doesn't cause any hallucinations? This is important because most (70-80%) of the effect of existing anti-depressants is known to be placebo, and there's already concern that you can't blind in regular anti-depressant trials because the participant might know they receive treatment due to feeling the side effects of the drug (e.g. insomnia). The problem of being unable to blind participants would seem to be magnified in a psilocybin trial.
- queuep 6y ago
  I'm not an expert in this, but if they gave 25mg psilocybin (not purified) you would probably not hallucinate (of my readings in the reddit posted in another comment here). But I'm not sure if its possibly to purify it, and I'm not sure what effects 25mg of "purified" psilocybin would have.
  - degrews 6y ago
    Note that is 25mg of psilocybin, not mushroom. Dried mushrooms contain about 1% psilocybin, so an equivalent dose of dried mushrooms would be around 2.5g, an amount that's definitely high enough to cause hallucinations. Not sure if this is what you mean by purified vs non purified.
- david_allison 6y ago
  > It seems like you can't blind the participants in this case? It should be obvious if you're getting the treatment because psilocybin is a hallucinogen, unless they're giving such a small dose that it reliably doesn't cause any hallucinations? An active placebo can be used. For example: a high dose of methylphenidate and hallucinogen-naïve adults.[0] [0] Griffiths, et al. (2006) https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/press_releases/2006/griffithspsilocybin.pdf https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/press_releases/2006/griffith...
elric 6y ago
There's been some promising progress on migraine/cluster-headache treatments with psilocybin microdosing. Really happy to see that humanity is slowly starting to realize that blanket bans aren't always the best idea ..
Black101 6y ago
They gave psilocybin in much lower dose to the placebo group... I wonder what the point of that was... it could still be affecting them.
- Leparamour 6y ago
  >They gave psilocybin in much lower dose to the placebo group... I wonder what the point of that was Psylocybin usually comes with obvious hallucinogenic or physiological effects. The placebo group would instantly realize they have been given a placebo if no physiological effects appear at all, hereby making the blind study useless. The Charité hospital in Berlin is starting a similar study sometime in summer of this year. The setup is that the control/placebo group (instead of Psylocybin) receives a dosage of Niacin [1]. This causes a "flushing" effect[2] in the test subject and in this way can trick them into believing they have indeed received Psylocybin. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niacin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niacin [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flushing_(physiology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flushing_(physiology)
whalesalad 6y ago
For those curious: you can cultivate your own at home. It’s 100% legal to purchase psilocybin spores online in many states. I just had to throw out a grow due to contamination - super frustrating setback - but I’m determined to produce a healthy harvest.
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  Before anyone rushes to do this: Cultivating these mushrooms is not legal, even if buying the spores might be. Likewise, self-medicating severe depression with hone grown psychedelics is not a great idea. These studies use controlled administration in supervised environments often with therapy as part of the process. You cannot replicate that at home. Psychedelics also can’t be dosed continuously like traditional antidepressants, making them a poor choice for continued treatment.
  - whalesalad 6y ago
    This is not a hacker mindset.
  - albrewer 6y ago
    To add on to this, these mushrooms should not be taken by anyone with liver problems - I was specifically warned by my gastroenterologist that, behind alcohol and starchy foods, magic mushrooms will screw up your liver very quickly.
    - quchen 6y ago
      Did they mention why? Sounds like FUD to me, since the psilos I know of are mostly water, indigestible chitin, and trace amount of kidney-excreted psilocin/psilocybin.
      - SauciestGNU 6y ago
        I had heard warnings about damaging kidney function with regular high dosage use, but not from a medical professional.
tzury 6y ago
I was not able to speak to my father, let alone staying in the same room were he was, for about 26 years (~18yr old till recently ~44yr). The background for this was my choice of leaving an ultra orthodox jewish community and going on my own. I recently tried that (after 3 years of hesitation) and the magic happened. It affected my structure of feelings in several ways indeed, but in the context of this one, I would say that, at least for me, it was not like "I forgive you", "you owe me, but I let go". Not at all, in my case, it simply earased the "load", the hard feelings, completely. Beyond the magic psychadelic affects, the trip is an emotional journey that one takes, a journey that you come back with compassion, understanding and rock solid outlook over the world.
- simmerup 6y ago
  What's your take on allowing a substance to change you so much?
  - tzury 6y ago
    not sure I understood the question, mind elaborating ?
  - flycaliguy 6y ago
    Can’t speak for OP but it sounds preferable to when he “allowed” his relationship with his father to take him on such an emotional journey.
    - tzury 6y ago
      I was not setting goals before, nor did I know what to expect. This was just an unexpected outcome, one amongst few others. One cannot speak indeed until one tries.
  - 987yghj 6y ago
    It doesn't change you. It increases your access to your subconscious. From there, you can draw your own conclusions.
  - 6y ago
willtemperley 6y ago
It also has an extremely good therapeutic index of 641 [0], compared to aspirin at 19 and alcohol at 10, where higher is better [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin#Toxicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin#Toxicity [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_index
mkeespiet 6y ago
Me and my girlfriend are microdosing LSD for the past couple of weeks. We both are very outgoing persons, but due to Corona, our life is really boring which makes our mental state not as positive as it was. We notice that we have more acceptance to the Corona situation. Especially the “bad” days, the microdosis makes the day much more acceptable.. I’m aware that this is a very brief explanation. If you are very interested in this, please let me know, happy to chat or call about it.
- murph-almighty 6y ago
  When you say microdosing, what size doses are you using?
  - mkeespiet 6y ago
    For me ~10mic
varispeed 6y ago
I think the people behind drug prohibition need reckoning. They have caused untold suffering, especially by preventing people from accessing medication they needed. There is no justification for drug prohibition to continue. If anyone thinks otherwise, then it only means they have not educated themselves enough about the topic, they profit from the current status quo or simply they take pleasure in causing suffering to other people.
- zepto 6y ago
  No justification for prohibition, but quite possibly justification for regulation.
  - varispeed 6y ago
    Yes the market should be regulated. Some substances can be more dangerous than others so there should be adequate restrictions and support plus raised tax could help with mental health services and education to ensure people can make informed decisions and also receive help if they get it wrong.
- wil421 6y ago
  Cocaine, Heroin, Meth, and Fentanyl should never be legal. They are too addicting. Possession in a small amount should be decriminalized using a stick (drunk tank for a couple days) or carrot (state run rehab or classes) method. Stop the prosecutions and jailing of the users. Mandate a class or whatever like they do for DUIs and provide a state run place to ween them off. Combined with a safe place to do drugs and safe needles.
  - bunfunton 6y ago
    I mean marijuana is more addicting to me than cocaine so....
    - wil421 6y ago
      Yes but no one is doing crackhead or dopehead things when they want Marijuana.
randomopining 6y ago
It emotionally attaches you to this world, which you belong in. You feel a connection to the eb and flow of the world, which I think depressed people lose. They get caught in their sole perception of their world, caused by neuroticism and past traumas. The brain pathways are hit hard every day, so it's tough for them to get out of it. This substance can be like a tsunami that washes it all away.
xxel 6y ago
What trial, what research? I have spent 20 years in psy festivals still have no depression even after these lockdowns and people I know are free of depression too. Even scientists I know eat acid and mushrooms so what research is needed?
TurkishPoptart 6y ago
What kind of dose are the individuals being given? It says 2 high-level doses over a 6 week period. Are we thinking the antidepressant effects aren't from the trip itself, but from the aftereffects? That's sort of what's being discovered w/r/t ketamine therapy for depression.
- david_allison 6y ago
  > Patients were assigned in a 1:1 ratio to receive two separate doses of 25 mg of psilocybin 3 weeks apart plus 6 weeks of daily placebo (psilocybin group) or two separate doses of 1 mg of psilocybin 3 weeks apart plus 6 weeks of daily oral escitalopram (escitalopram group); https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994
kodah 6y ago
I see articles about curing depression from time to time and I have hope but not much. I have lived most of my life as a depressed kid. The most jolting realization that I had as an adult was that around sixth grade I was contemplating suicide without knowing what that word meant. Since then, life has been like a long, slow death march. If you asked most of my friends they'd likely tell you that I'm really happy, funny, quirky, and eccentric but inside I battle the demons of my own mind. I've let those demons shape my understanding of the world before and each day they don't these days is a choice. I've used cognitive behavioral therapy as a tool to do battle against them, I take daily melatonin, and I take long vacations but those things are coping mechanisms. The days I am hit with depression that wants to keep me anchored to my bed are the days I really go to war. I have to keep my mouth shut more because whatever I say on those days will almost assuredly be tainted with tinges of, I hate myself and am discontented with the world tones. I have to pressure myself to focus. When the day is over I throw myself on the couch and hope that tomorrow that veil is lifted.
- marsrover 6y ago
  As someone who also struggled with depression from an early age, taking mushrooms cured it. I haven't taken them in over a decade and I did get in a funk during the pandemic, but the difference between the day before taking mushrooms and the days after are like night and day. I would bet money that it would help you. If you decide to try them out, all you need is 3.5 grams and someone experienced to take them with you or at least sit with you. Oh, and put on some Shpongle.
haskaalo 6y ago
I have had many psychedelics experience during the last 2 years but I've only had the opportunity to try mushrooms once. They definitely are powerful and healing, however I believe the only safe path shrooms will take in our society is national legalization for use in therapy and not recreational use. My main argument is the following: legalization for recreational use will trivialize the image of psilocybin in the eyes of the population, and we will start to see an increase in "bad experiences" due to people using it without having a trip sitter or preparation. Therefore, legalizing it only for therapy use will be more beneficial for the general population. Decriminalization is an option, but legalization ehhh.
- randomopining 6y ago
  It should be legal to grow yourself (only serious people will do it) and also for therapy. I think I agree that straight recreational legalizing would attract people who aren’t prepared to just take a ton and be idiots.
splithalf 6y ago
But who knows what will happen to these subjects 50 years from now! There could be blood clots! /s
jonesn11 5y ago
The confidence intervals don't seem to imply that Psilocybin is "promising" given that for a subset of patients, there were worse effects.
JesseMReeves 5y ago
Japan had magic mushroom vending machines until they were banned in 2002. The Japanese were concerned about what image they display to the world ahead of the FIFA World Cup 2002, which led to this ban. Many different explanations are possible, but I do wonder whether there is any connection to their increased rates of depression after 2000. Antidepressants were not accepted in Japan for long time. To verify it would be good to see some statistics on their usage prior to that. Checking out Super Marios game mechanics, it seems they were in the nations discourse at least ;)

304 points by aluket 6y ago

The study was just published in the most prestigious medical journal in the world [1]. Whatever you think of the study, this is rather significant. If you told me even 2 years ago there would be a randomised trial of magic mushrooms in NEJM, I would not have believed it for even a second. One point not to miss is that they screened 1000 patients to come up with the study population of 59. Nevertheless, I consider the study result quite promising, considering patients only had 2 doses of psilocybin. [1] https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994

ButtSpark69 6y ago
"If you told me even 2 years ago there would be a randomised trial of magic mushrooms in NEJM, I would not have believed it for even a second." In a lot of ways, that's completely depressing for how slowly we've come as a species.
- refurb 6y ago
  Wait until you learn some history about how regressed!
- sneak 6y ago
  I agree wholeheartedly, Mister ButtSpark69. For all our civilization's progress, we still have so far to go.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- o_p 6y ago
  Maybe some mushrooms could help you with that
- Fricken 6y ago
  "The species" has been using psychedelics in religious ceremonies for a long time. We're just out of the loop.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    > "The species" has been using psychedelics in religious ceremonies for a long time. Arguably for thousands of years, as well.
philshem 6y ago
Due to the stigma of psychedelics, there has been a long gap in research, which may have started with 1962 "Good Friday Experiment" > Almost all of the members of the experimental group reported experiencing profound religious experiences, providing empirical support for the notion that psychedelic drugs can facilitate religious experiences. One of the participants in the experiment was religious scholar Huston Smith, who would become an author of several textbooks on comparative religion. He later described his experience as "the most powerful cosmic homecoming I have ever experienced". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- petemir 6y ago
  For a complete story about psychedelic research I recommend “How to Change Your Mind” by Michael Pollan.
mrwww 6y ago
2 doses of psilocybin, vs 6 weeks of SSRI's..! They also seem to cite a big difference in lasting happiness, altough that wasnt the focus of the study.
- varispeed 6y ago
  You can clearly see why psilocybin is illegal. Follow the money... I hope one day the companies and people behind this will go to jail.
- GordonS 5y ago
  And some folks have a really tough time coming off SSRIs too, with bad withdrawal symptoms (extreme anxiety, panic attacks, tremor, hallucinations, memory loss, confusion...) even when tapering over several weeks.
say_it_as_it_is 6y ago
The definition of treatment resistant depression is one of the filters that narrows down the list. A subject must have tried at least two different antidepressants for a certain length of time and within the last few years, in addition to therapy. So, someone who has taken antidepressants for years doesn't automatically qualify.
- varispeed 6y ago
  This is crazy. It's like cart manufacturers lobbied government that anyone who want to buy a car would first have to use a horse and a cart and only be allowed to buy a car if the cart and a horse causes significant problem. Am I the only one seeing corruption here?
  - rincebrain 6y ago
    If your attempted argument is "X helps people who are not helped by other existing treatments", then limiting your selection criteria to those who have tried several existing treatments and not found success seems to follow logically. (Though the study's construction seems to fail at that argument, since the claim is that all patients, both those given the psilocybin and those given the SSRI, improved markedly.)
    - varispeed 6y ago
      When I wrote that, I had in mind a situation in my country that you can be eligible for private medical cannabis prescription if you try at least two other treatments and you find them ineffective. On the surface it doesn't sound too sinister, but for example, when it comes to chronic pain the drugs that are being given are simply nasty. I still have nightmares about the side effects that I experienced (vivid hallucinations, suicidal thoughts, derealization and more). Given how ubiquitous cannabis is, people with various problems often find, including chronic pain, that it helps massively and unfortunately they cannot bypass going through hell just to get prescription for what helps. They cannot even suggest that they look for medicinal cannabis as they still may be branded as drug seekers and be denied treatment altogether.
loceng 6y ago
"One point not to miss is that they screened 1000 patients to come up with the study population of 59." I'd be curious how many 10,000s if not 100,000s of people pharmaceutical companies go through, along with changing/crafting their selection criteria to keep out people/symptoms they know have more/strong "side"/harmful effects with, until they get acceptable looking results; propaganda using truth - "Misleading with true fact" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lls_2tfWcUI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lls_2tfWcUI
bigfudge 6y ago
>they screened 1000 patients to come up with the study population of 59 Note that while not ideal this is completely normal for any early stage drug trial. Most drugs get licenced based on data in which the trials would have excluded 90%+ of the typical clinical population. This is certainly true in depression where most drug trials will exclude patients with comorbid MH conditions, and often exclude them for "too many previous episodes". But it's also true in physical health (e.g. asthma). I'm sure it's even harder when recruiting for an RCT in psychedelics though. A friend was working on clinical applications of MDMA about 15 years ago and a stipulation of the ethics board was that her participants had to have taken MDMA at least 3 times before, but not more than 10 times. Not easy to recruit for that study!

adammunich 6y ago

Old news is news I see

diimdeep 6y ago
This 'news' is scheduled 'blogspam', this article links to prev. article with exactly the same premise and that posted exactly 1 month earlier (15 april, 15 march), while both based on ~2018 research. Moving on.
- tpm 6y ago
  No, it's based on an article that just came out in NEJM: Trial of Psilocybin versus Escitalopram for Depression https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994
  - diimdeep 6y ago
    > dii ok, thanks for correcting me.

internetslave 6y ago

I’m going to cluster HN news stories by topic and then write a script to filter the same content out.

jeromenerf 6y ago
French call this kind of repetitive, easy to write and not worth reading articles "marronniers" (literally "chestnut tree"), supposedly because some famous tree was worth an annual subject. In case you need to name your project :) On the other hand, I would prefer to filter out the comments marronniers. You know, the mushroom anecdotes, the quality of the Mac trackpad, ...
- hyper_dynamics 6y ago
  Can't say much of the mushrooms, but the Mac trackpad is so good, it made me write this comment ;)

satellite2 6y ago

It seems the design of this study is questionable. Since they couldn't blind the psylocybin group from the effect, they gave 1mg daily to the SSRI group. Basically it's a study that compares psylocybin with SSRI + psylocybin micro dosing. They claim that the micro dose don't have an effect, but there is not a large body of evidence to support that claim.

8192kjshad09- 6y ago
Wouldn't the study design under exaggerate the effect of psilocybin, if anything?
- jxding 6y ago
  To be a little pedantic, I'm not sure "under exaggerate" is a valid phrase. What you're looking for may be "under-report"?
qntty 6y ago
The 1 mg dose wasn't daily, it was 3 weeks apart. From the study: Patients were assigned in a 1:1 ratio to receive two separate doses of 25 mg of psilocybin 3 weeks apart plus 6 weeks of daily placebo (psilocybin group) or two separate doses of 1 mg of psilocybin 3 weeks apart plus 6 weeks of daily oral escitalopram (escitalopram group); all the patients received psychological support. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

simonswords82 6y ago

I have a friend who has experienced magic mushrooms recreationally about half a dozen times in her 20s. After each trip she reported feeling clear headed and more mindful - she described it as though her mind's harddrive had been defragmented. Fast forward 10 years and that same friend felt low during lockdown over the past 12 months. After reading up online she decided to try microdosing mushrooms rather than the mainstream route her doctor would prescribe - anti depressants. She has been taking a tiny dose every other day and feels immeasurably better. More optimistic about the future. More energy. More focus. Less sad. To say it's frustrating to read these official press releases about the positive impact of mushrooms nearly 20 years after she discovered them for the first time is the understatement of a lifetime. I'm convinced we'll look back at this era as a form of prohibition on drugs that governments threw down as a wide blanket and ultimately society was worse off for.

jack_riminton 6y ago
This is my experience too. I’ve been microdosing about 1.3mg on and off during lockdown. The effects are subtle and hard to describe but I’d say it’s like ‘opening your mind’ or reframing your point of view on things. Definitely different from other drugs which just pump you with serotonin
- anonporridge 6y ago
  It temporarily breaks you out of your established mental framework. It's as if your raw consciousness viewing the world without any of the filters that we all use to tune out the noise. That's why the experience can be overwhelming and chaotic and it's useful to be in a safe place with a trip sitter. I think the magic comes when you discover that something your default mindset was filtering out as noise is actually signal. With that insight, you can more easily make changes to your sober mindset.
  - agent008t 6y ago
    That is interesting. So it is a bit like reducing your attention, and expanding awareness? What you described sounds very similar to the effects of mindfulness meditation. The idea in a sense is to increase awareness - that is, sensing the world as is, without the filters or influence of mental objects. The theory is that meditation can then help you free yourself of past negative conditioning that is no longer relevant and to be more present. It would be interesting to see more studies on both, but I understand that many things to do with the mind and subjective experiences are difficult to measure and therefore to study.

ceilingcorner 6y ago

I don’t want to live in a world where the solution to depression (caused by governments, politicians, or general existence in the modern capitalist world) is a drug. Not a good idea. Instead, figure out why depression has increased so dramatically in the last ~century and address that.

pengaru 6y ago
I don't want to live in a world where how you want the world to look affects my freedom to eat certain foods.
- ceilingcorner 6y ago
  Nowhere did I say that prohibition is a good idea. The article isn’t about that, it’s about using drugs to “cure” depression.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    In cases where depression is caused by whackadoodle brain chemistry, this might actually be a completely reasonable answer.
    - ceilingcorner 6y ago
      Yes probably, but the most upvoted example in this topic is about curing depression from lockdowns. I don’t want to live in a world where the cure to depression caused by forced lockdowns is to take psychedelics. That seems very dystopian.
      - DoreenMichele 6y ago
        What causes depression during lockdown? Is it lack of exposure to sunlight? Is it lack of exercise? Is it eating more poorly? Is it people being confined to spaces that may not be that clean that they normally leave during the day, thus exposing them to more mold and germs? It isn't necessarily dystopian. It may still be a valid and genuine treatment, though I agree it would be better to understand more thoroughly why it works, not just that it works. A former medical professional once told me "The answers you want for how this OTC drug works at the cellular level don't exist. That isn't actually what drug studies cover." I don't disagree with your aims. I simply disagree with some of your implicit assumptions.

flyGuyOnTheSly 6y ago

Ingesting Magic Mushrooms definitely makes me feel better. I have been micro dosing for months now and loving it.

mikkelam 6y ago
could just be placebo https://elifesciences.org/articles/62878 https://elifesciences.org/articles/62878

philshem 6y ago

Due to recent decriminalizations and booming medical research, there are also some publicly traded companies one can invest in: https://psychedelicinvest.com/index/ https://psychedelicinvest.com/index/ https://www.horizonsetfs.com/etf/psyk https://www.horizonsetfs.com/etf/psyk (disclaimer: I own shares in many of these companies)

yreg 6y ago
For more discussion on this topic there is /r/shroomstocks[0] And PsilocybinAlpha[1] monitors companies in the sector. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/shroomstocks/ https://www.reddit.com/r/shroomstocks/ [1] https://psilocybinalpha.com/ https://psilocybinalpha.com/
- philshem 6y ago
  > This community is available in the app https://i.reddit.com/r/shroomstocks/ https://i.reddit.com/r/shroomstocks/ https://old.reddit.com/r/shroomstocks/ https://old.reddit.com/r/shroomstocks/
high_priest 6y ago
In a gist, how would one go about making such investment? Should I talk to a pro broker?
- t1mmen 6y ago
  Most of the tickers are traded on Canadian exchanges (NEO, TSX.V, CSE). If you’re in the US, I believe Interactive Brokers (and others) will let you buy stocks at these exchanges. You can do all this self-directed, no need to involve a processional. If your current broker doesn’t allow Canadian venture/OTC stocks, $CMPS is the only ticker traded on NASDAQ so far. $MMED is expected to uplist to NASDAQ in the near future.
CabSauce 6y ago
Just mild warning for folks considering this. These companies are highly speculative. (They're also mostly down 20-30% in the last couple months.)

vlunkr 6y ago

On the one hand, HN is terrified of brain-computer interfaces manipulating our brains and emotions, on the other hand, they're totally psyched about using mushrooms to do the same thing.

FPGAhacker 6y ago
We are not a homogenous group.
phito 6y ago
It's not even remotely the same thing. One is a chemical compound that temporarly messes with the way your brain work, the other is an permanent (?) extension to your brain that allows to manipulate it from the outside. Also, HN is not one person with a single opinion.
anonporridge 6y ago
I can't realistically automate the brain manipulation of millions of people taking mushrooms in a short period of time from the comfort of my evil lair.
krageon 6y ago
If you're going to be this reductive about things, you might as well say every antidepressant and apparently also psilocybin does the exact same thing. Of course, being that reductive isn't useful and ignores a lot of the nuance that actually exists around the subject. Much like what you're saying.
pjc50 6y ago
Mushrooms don't have an agenda. The owner of the brain-computer interface probably does.
- alexilliamson 6y ago
  The jury is out on that. There are mushrooms that infect ants' brains and make them travel to a high place before the ant's head explodes, so that the spores are carried further by the wind. They might have an agenda.

abgr-y 6y ago

I don't believe drugs whether prescribed or recreational can cure Mental disorders. yes they may alleviate the symptoms but they don't really work on the root cause which are basically ones mental tendencies, thought patterns or habits acquired over a period of time. here[0] is a different take on what depression is and gives a high level road map to come out of it, for more details this [1] is a book by the same author and for testing out if those methods work here is an app [2] again from the same monk. p.s i have followed all three & i must say the quality of life has improved considerably [0] https://os.me/depression-definition-cause-and-cure/ https://os.me/depression-definition-cause-and-cure/ [1] https://www.amazon.in/When-All-Not-Well-Perspective-ebook/dp/B01FTU7ED6 https://www.amazon.in/When-All-Not-Well-Perspective-ebook/dp... [2] https://www.blacklotus.app/ https://www.blacklotus.app/

lifeisstillgood 6y ago
Perhaps, but it is a lot easier to take long term action on your mental tendencies if you don't feel the blackness closing in every second. We have a long century ahead of us to pull out of the mental health slump we are seeing (similar perhaps to the physical health slumps following industrialisation). We will need many tools in the kit.
- mensetmanusman 6y ago
  Interesting perspective that large societal shifts account for shifts in the type of health outcomes. One problem I see is that if people are too tied to their subjective well-being, then it is a frame of mind that can never be satisfied.
jack_riminton 6y ago
But that’s exactly what psychedelics do, they rewire the brain. In neuroscience terms they disrupt the default mode network. In other words they open your mind up and allow it to break free of the tendencies, thought patterns and habits. This is why they’re more akin to therapy than recreational drugs
beambot 6y ago

Geee 6y ago

Are psychedelics connected to dreaming? I mean, maybe dreams are supposed to somehow reset or recalibrate brains, but on some people it's not working for some reason. Also, there's a connection of what you eat and what you dream, so my wild hypothesis is that gut bacteria is responsible for recalibrating your brain during sleep. There's also quite strong evidence for correlation between gut bacteria and mental health. Somehow these are connected. Also, exercise, especially running has a mental health effect. Maybe it just mixes your gut bacteria.

elisaado 6y ago
The following is anecdotal, but many people report more vivid dreams after recreational use of LSD.

alexf95 6y ago

I feel like there will also people that have way too many prejudices towards these kinds of "drugs" because that's simply how we learned it. "Don't take drugs kids". These studies are very helpful especially when shared over general media, but the consumption has to be supervised and controlled to not have overdoses and ruin the whole reputation again. It should be treated like any other anti-depressant, since they are just "drugs" in the end

dannyw 6y ago
We need to change the message from "don't take drugs" to "if you choose to take drugs, take them responsibly". Start with low doses, don't mix (alcohol,benzo,opiates), and remember that unless taken therapeutically, drugs should be an occasional party thing and not an escapism for life. It's also totally fine to not do drugs. I'm going sober (except a beer or two) for an indefinite period of time, just because that's what I feel like. Maybe I'll go on a mushroom trip for new years eve, who knows, but drugs shouldn't define your life.
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  > We need to change the message from "don't take drugs" to "if you choose to take drugs, take them responsibly". The phrase for this is “harm reduction” and it has been around for a few decades in the pro-drug communities. The challenge is that harm reduction material is largely targeted at avoiding overdoses or fatal combinations as you mentioned, which can give users a false sense of confidence about their ability to avoid addiction. I’ve watched a couple close acquaintances slowly decline over time due to what they thought was responsible drug use. You can do all the right things and still end up addicted to and dependent upon addictive drugs. Fortunately they were both able to afford rehabilitation programs that got them back on track. I visited one of them in the rehab program. The price tag was high so selection bias was obviously at play, but it was interesting to see that every person there was also an adult professional who thought they were smart enough and self-educated enough about drugs to avoid succumbing to addiction, which was clearly not the case. I don’t have any answers or solutions to the topic, but I do know that addiction is a risk that most addicts seem to downplay at the start of their experiences. Few people go into drug habits expecting to become dependent. Perhaps more interesting is the uptick in people addicted to psychedelics, partially driven by the growing perception that they’re not addictive. It seems that these patients aren’t addicted in the traditional sense of becoming dependent, but they get hooked on the escapism aspect or the idea that they’re just one or two trips away from a major epiphany. Not all of the rewiring that takes place in these experiences is necessarily in a healthy direction. It can happen, so people should at least be aware of it.

collyw 6y ago

Here in Europe someone gave politicians the idea that they could control a virus. So now we have arbitrary sets of restrictions applied when case numbers of coronavirus go up. If case numbers go down again, they get relaxed. If they go up, add more restrictions are added until they go down. The restrictions are follow the case numbers, but we have convinced ourselves it is the other way around. It's a modern day witchcraft.

krageon 6y ago
Measures to contain COVID-19 exist globally and if you have great cosmic insight into the fact that they don't work, perhaps you could share that instead of sarcasm without any basis.
- theelous3 6y ago
  They are saying they do work, but only when they are implemented. They are unimplemented when the numbers get low, which causes them to go back up, and has the effect of starting the cycle again.
  - dTal 6y ago
    No, they are saying that lockdowns do nothing and any appearance that they do is backwards causality: "restrictions are follow[sic] the case numbers, but we have convinced ourselves it is the other way around". They're wrong, but that's what they're saying.
    - krageon 6y ago
      This is also what I read in it, which I found a little strange of a stance given what we know works for the flu.
    - collyw 6y ago
      I didn't say they do nothing, lockdowns clearly cause massive harm and suffering yet there is no obvious benefit when compared to places that didn't lock down. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-84092-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-84092-1

lostmsu 6y ago

Judging by studies on long term use of other mind-altering drugs, I would expect psilocybin to similarly cause decline in cognitive abilities after prolonged use. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), I could not find studies on effect of specifically psilocybin on cognitive abilities. And please, don't bring up EmoIQ and other non-reasoning related stuff. This is not what the concern is about.

cyberlab 6y ago
If anything shrooms would be contributing to neurogenesis[0] not destroying brain cells. Opposite to alcohol which is well known to destroy brain cells. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurogenesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurogenesis
- lostmsu 6y ago
  I see you share the sentiment. Well, > Injection of PSOP, 25I-NBMeO or ketanserin resulted in significant dose-dependent decreases in number of newborn neurons in hippocampus > At the low doses of PSOP that enhanced extinction, neurogenesis was not decreased, but rather tended toward an increase (in mice) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23727882/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23727882/ The way I read it large doses definitely decrease neurogenesis and low doses look like they slightly increase, but the authors are uncertain. That putting aside that neurogenesis changes caused by the substance might be affecting the actual intelligence either way.

fighterpilot 6y ago

> In a phase 2, double-blind, randomized, controlled trial It seems like you can't blind the participants in this case? It should be obvious if you're getting the treatment because psilocybin is a hallucinogen, unless they're giving such a small dose that it reliably doesn't cause any hallucinations? This is important because most (70-80%) of the effect of existing anti-depressants is known to be placebo, and there's already concern that you can't blind in regular anti-depressant trials because the participant might know they receive treatment due to feeling the side effects of the drug (e.g. insomnia). The problem of being unable to blind participants would seem to be magnified in a psilocybin trial.

queuep 6y ago
I'm not an expert in this, but if they gave 25mg psilocybin (not purified) you would probably not hallucinate (of my readings in the reddit posted in another comment here). But I'm not sure if its possibly to purify it, and I'm not sure what effects 25mg of "purified" psilocybin would have.
- degrews 6y ago
  Note that is 25mg of psilocybin, not mushroom. Dried mushrooms contain about 1% psilocybin, so an equivalent dose of dried mushrooms would be around 2.5g, an amount that's definitely high enough to cause hallucinations. Not sure if this is what you mean by purified vs non purified.
david_allison 6y ago
> It seems like you can't blind the participants in this case? It should be obvious if you're getting the treatment because psilocybin is a hallucinogen, unless they're giving such a small dose that it reliably doesn't cause any hallucinations? An active placebo can be used. For example: a high dose of methylphenidate and hallucinogen-naïve adults.[0] [0] Griffiths, et al. (2006) https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/press_releases/2006/griffithspsilocybin.pdf https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/press_releases/2006/griffith...

elric 6y ago

There's been some promising progress on migraine/cluster-headache treatments with psilocybin microdosing. Really happy to see that humanity is slowly starting to realize that blanket bans aren't always the best idea ..

Black101 6y ago

They gave psilocybin in much lower dose to the placebo group... I wonder what the point of that was... it could still be affecting them.

Leparamour 6y ago
>They gave psilocybin in much lower dose to the placebo group... I wonder what the point of that was Psylocybin usually comes with obvious hallucinogenic or physiological effects. The placebo group would instantly realize they have been given a placebo if no physiological effects appear at all, hereby making the blind study useless. The Charité hospital in Berlin is starting a similar study sometime in summer of this year. The setup is that the control/placebo group (instead of Psylocybin) receives a dosage of Niacin [1]. This causes a "flushing" effect[2] in the test subject and in this way can trick them into believing they have indeed received Psylocybin. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niacin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niacin [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flushing_(physiology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flushing_(physiology)

whalesalad 6y ago

For those curious: you can cultivate your own at home. It’s 100% legal to purchase psilocybin spores online in many states. I just had to throw out a grow due to contamination - super frustrating setback - but I’m determined to produce a healthy harvest.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago
Before anyone rushes to do this: Cultivating these mushrooms is not legal, even if buying the spores might be. Likewise, self-medicating severe depression with hone grown psychedelics is not a great idea. These studies use controlled administration in supervised environments often with therapy as part of the process. You cannot replicate that at home. Psychedelics also can’t be dosed continuously like traditional antidepressants, making them a poor choice for continued treatment.
- whalesalad 6y ago
  This is not a hacker mindset.
- albrewer 6y ago
  To add on to this, these mushrooms should not be taken by anyone with liver problems - I was specifically warned by my gastroenterologist that, behind alcohol and starchy foods, magic mushrooms will screw up your liver very quickly.
  - quchen 6y ago
    Did they mention why? Sounds like FUD to me, since the psilos I know of are mostly water, indigestible chitin, and trace amount of kidney-excreted psilocin/psilocybin.
    - SauciestGNU 6y ago
      I had heard warnings about damaging kidney function with regular high dosage use, but not from a medical professional.

tzury 6y ago

I was not able to speak to my father, let alone staying in the same room were he was, for about 26 years (~18yr old till recently ~44yr). The background for this was my choice of leaving an ultra orthodox jewish community and going on my own. I recently tried that (after 3 years of hesitation) and the magic happened. It affected my structure of feelings in several ways indeed, but in the context of this one, I would say that, at least for me, it was not like "I forgive you", "you owe me, but I let go". Not at all, in my case, it simply earased the "load", the hard feelings, completely. Beyond the magic psychadelic affects, the trip is an emotional journey that one takes, a journey that you come back with compassion, understanding and rock solid outlook over the world.

simmerup 6y ago
What's your take on allowing a substance to change you so much?
- tzury 6y ago
  not sure I understood the question, mind elaborating ?
- flycaliguy 6y ago
  Can’t speak for OP but it sounds preferable to when he “allowed” his relationship with his father to take him on such an emotional journey.
  - tzury 6y ago
    I was not setting goals before, nor did I know what to expect. This was just an unexpected outcome, one amongst few others. One cannot speak indeed until one tries.
- 987yghj 6y ago
  It doesn't change you. It increases your access to your subconscious. From there, you can draw your own conclusions.
- 6y ago

willtemperley 6y ago

It also has an extremely good therapeutic index of 641 [0], compared to aspirin at 19 and alcohol at 10, where higher is better [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin#Toxicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin#Toxicity [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_index

mkeespiet 6y ago

Me and my girlfriend are microdosing LSD for the past couple of weeks. We both are very outgoing persons, but due to Corona, our life is really boring which makes our mental state not as positive as it was. We notice that we have more acceptance to the Corona situation. Especially the “bad” days, the microdosis makes the day much more acceptable.. I’m aware that this is a very brief explanation. If you are very interested in this, please let me know, happy to chat or call about it.

murph-almighty 6y ago
When you say microdosing, what size doses are you using?
- mkeespiet 6y ago
  For me ~10mic

varispeed 6y ago

I think the people behind drug prohibition need reckoning. They have caused untold suffering, especially by preventing people from accessing medication they needed. There is no justification for drug prohibition to continue. If anyone thinks otherwise, then it only means they have not educated themselves enough about the topic, they profit from the current status quo or simply they take pleasure in causing suffering to other people.

zepto 6y ago
No justification for prohibition, but quite possibly justification for regulation.
- varispeed 6y ago
  Yes the market should be regulated. Some substances can be more dangerous than others so there should be adequate restrictions and support plus raised tax could help with mental health services and education to ensure people can make informed decisions and also receive help if they get it wrong.
wil421 6y ago
Cocaine, Heroin, Meth, and Fentanyl should never be legal. They are too addicting. Possession in a small amount should be decriminalized using a stick (drunk tank for a couple days) or carrot (state run rehab or classes) method. Stop the prosecutions and jailing of the users. Mandate a class or whatever like they do for DUIs and provide a state run place to ween them off. Combined with a safe place to do drugs and safe needles.
- bunfunton 6y ago
  I mean marijuana is more addicting to me than cocaine so....
  - wil421 6y ago
    Yes but no one is doing crackhead or dopehead things when they want Marijuana.

randomopining 6y ago

It emotionally attaches you to this world, which you belong in. You feel a connection to the eb and flow of the world, which I think depressed people lose. They get caught in their sole perception of their world, caused by neuroticism and past traumas. The brain pathways are hit hard every day, so it's tough for them to get out of it. This substance can be like a tsunami that washes it all away.

xxel 6y ago

What trial, what research? I have spent 20 years in psy festivals still have no depression even after these lockdowns and people I know are free of depression too. Even scientists I know eat acid and mushrooms so what research is needed?

TurkishPoptart 6y ago

What kind of dose are the individuals being given? It says 2 high-level doses over a 6 week period. Are we thinking the antidepressant effects aren't from the trip itself, but from the aftereffects? That's sort of what's being discovered w/r/t ketamine therapy for depression.

david_allison 6y ago
> Patients were assigned in a 1:1 ratio to receive two separate doses of 25 mg of psilocybin 3 weeks apart plus 6 weeks of daily placebo (psilocybin group) or two separate doses of 1 mg of psilocybin 3 weeks apart plus 6 weeks of daily oral escitalopram (escitalopram group); https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994

kodah 6y ago

I see articles about curing depression from time to time and I have hope but not much. I have lived most of my life as a depressed kid. The most jolting realization that I had as an adult was that around sixth grade I was contemplating suicide without knowing what that word meant. Since then, life has been like a long, slow death march. If you asked most of my friends they'd likely tell you that I'm really happy, funny, quirky, and eccentric but inside I battle the demons of my own mind. I've let those demons shape my understanding of the world before and each day they don't these days is a choice. I've used cognitive behavioral therapy as a tool to do battle against them, I take daily melatonin, and I take long vacations but those things are coping mechanisms. The days I am hit with depression that wants to keep me anchored to my bed are the days I really go to war. I have to keep my mouth shut more because whatever I say on those days will almost assuredly be tainted with tinges of, I hate myself and am discontented with the world tones. I have to pressure myself to focus. When the day is over I throw myself on the couch and hope that tomorrow that veil is lifted.

marsrover 6y ago
As someone who also struggled with depression from an early age, taking mushrooms cured it. I haven't taken them in over a decade and I did get in a funk during the pandemic, but the difference between the day before taking mushrooms and the days after are like night and day. I would bet money that it would help you. If you decide to try them out, all you need is 3.5 grams and someone experienced to take them with you or at least sit with you. Oh, and put on some Shpongle.

haskaalo 6y ago

I have had many psychedelics experience during the last 2 years but I've only had the opportunity to try mushrooms once. They definitely are powerful and healing, however I believe the only safe path shrooms will take in our society is national legalization for use in therapy and not recreational use. My main argument is the following: legalization for recreational use will trivialize the image of psilocybin in the eyes of the population, and we will start to see an increase in "bad experiences" due to people using it without having a trip sitter or preparation. Therefore, legalizing it only for therapy use will be more beneficial for the general population. Decriminalization is an option, but legalization ehhh.

randomopining 6y ago
It should be legal to grow yourself (only serious people will do it) and also for therapy. I think I agree that straight recreational legalizing would attract people who aren’t prepared to just take a ton and be idiots.

splithalf 6y ago

But who knows what will happen to these subjects 50 years from now! There could be blood clots! /s

jonesn11 5y ago

The confidence intervals don't seem to imply that Psilocybin is "promising" given that for a subset of patients, there were worse effects.

JesseMReeves 5y ago

Japan had magic mushroom vending machines until they were banned in 2002. The Japanese were concerned about what image they display to the world ahead of the FIFA World Cup 2002, which led to this ban. Many different explanations are possible, but I do wonder whether there is any connection to their increased rates of depression after 2000. Antidepressants were not accepted in Japan for long time. To verify it would be good to see some statistics on their usage prior to that. Checking out Super Marios game mechanics, it seems they were in the nations discourse at least ;)