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I think this is not something bad in itself - such practice is well known, for instance truck drivers are being tracked routinely and nobody makes a big fuss ab

I think this is not something bad in itself - such practice is well known, for instance truck drivers are being tracked routinely and nobody makes a big fuss about that. But this is unacceptable: "telling employees to download an app on their personal phones that would check their location and ensure they were working their scheduled hours." Why someone is obliged to install something on a private phone? What if someone does not have smartphone, what if that phone will stop working, who is to blame, who is responsible for fixing it, how quickly - will an employee sign SLA for fixing the phone? Employer should provide a phone for an employee and then whatever employer wants can be installed there. If something does not work, well, it is up to employer to provide support.

hombre_fatal 6y ago
Personnel location crosses a line to me. If you want to track location, put the locator on company property like the cleaning cart that custodians push around.
- neaden 6y ago
  This might be legal, but it's still bad management. If you don't trust your employees and you don't think you can evaluate the results of their work, in this case if things are clean, that's on you as a manager to figure out. Tying it in to the process like this and you end up getting false flags when they spend a long time cleaning a mess, or reward them for not cleaning sufficiently to hit their movement metrics.
  - michaelt 6y ago
    A small minority of work can't easily be directly evaluated. If I hire a security patrol company, and they contract to provide a patrol that will visit twice a night and walk around the building, nonperformance would be almost undetectable.
    - neaden 6y ago
      There may be cases sure, but this isn't one of them.
    - ipaddr 6y ago
      If a robbery or damaged occured you would know. If you audited the cameras. If you had a second employee. Tracking location by the second isn't necessary and can be defeated with a rc car and a piece of tape by a 6 year old or robot (the tommy robot from the 80s would be perfect) or drone if you want to stay upto date.
    - HarryHirsch 6y ago
      Punch clocks were standard 100 years ago. The nightguard was supposed to press the button on clocks dotted around the building when he passed them. No app on the personal phone required.
    - yencabulator 6y ago
      Security patrols have little RFID style markers around the building they scan to prove when they were there. That's standard practice at least in Europe.
- barbazoo 6y ago
  Fwiw, it's not tracking location > The app, called Blip, generates a geofence — a virtual boundary, created by the employer using GPS — that detects when an employee enters or leaves.
  - overscore 6y ago
    That is location tracking.
  - input_sh 6y ago
    What is that if not location tracking?
    - barbazoo 6y ago
      I understand location tracking as being tracked, i.e. someone knows where I am at any given time. Here it's a binary information. Inside the fence (place of employment) or not. Once you're out, all the employer knows is that you're not at work. Don't get me wrong, I despise this but it's not tracking strictly speaking.
      - type0 6y ago
        How should anyone know this? Is this app open source?
      - input_sh 6y ago
        > Inside the fence (place of employment) or not. But to do that you have to share location permissions all the time with the app. And you have to trust it enough to give it those permissions. Also here's a solution with no app and no location tracking: detect when a phone has connected to on-premise WiFi.
        m0dest 6y ago
        >Also here's a solution with no app and no location tracking: detect when a phone has connected to on-premise WiFi. I was about to suggest the same. Always-on location tracking is an extremely lazy and disrespectful way to replace a punch card. Here's your replacement app: - When arriving at work, you open the app while on employer's WiFi and tap "Start my shift" - Before leaving work, you open the app and tap "End my shift" (but this is not required) - During your shift, the service tries to periodically validate that your phone is still on WiFi (via LAN pings, silent push notifications that trigger checkins, or background polling) - During your shift, if the service can't verify that your phone is still on the WiFi for 30+ minutes, it sends you a push notification asking you to open the app and check in. Otherwise, it ends your shift. - If there's some WiFi dead zone in the workplace where they need to work for more than an hour, give the employee the option to respond with a one-time GPS location instead of joining the WiFi. Boom. This was not hard. Doesn't even need internal infrastructure; can do this whole thing based on WAN IPs.
CivBase 6y ago
> Employer should provide a phone for an employee and then whatever employer wants can be installed there. If something does not work, well, it is up to employer to provide support. Buy a scanner. Put it in somewhere the building which is accessible by employees (eg custodial office). Give each employee a unique, scannable card with which to identify themselves. Instruct employees to clock in and out by scanning the card. Mission accomplished. No phones or location tracking necessary. What this person's employer did should be illegal, and that extends to other industries as well. A shipping company can track their trailer or their shipments, but they shouldn't be allowed to track the truck driver himself.
- snow_mac 6y ago
  This is something I've seen at places like Whole Foods. In the bathroom they have a digital card scanner. One day I saw an employee scan their ID, they said that they have to check on certain things every hour and scanning a badge in the bathroom tells their minders that "Hey, the bathroom was checked in on by an employee and thus should be in of good condition". I think something like that is fine and reasonable if your job is to move about a building.
  - rrauenza 6y ago
    Corporate security has something like this as well - there are little button shaped things on the wall everywhere they scan with their device as they make their rounds.
    - SllX 6y ago
      Generally anywhere with security patrols, even outside some residential buildings and townhouses in San Francisco.
    - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
      I have a NFC app on my phone, read one of those buttons ... they left it unlocked, so I posted a message. Not sure anyone will read it, presumably they just pick up the location ID in an app. I guess someone could just clone the locations and sit in a chair and spoof it. Library books in my area use NFC, the tags weren't locked on the last book I checked. Probably not a security problem (ha!?), but you'd think the possibility of vandalism would cause them to be locked.
londons_explore 6y ago
You could consider the company is not hiring Mary-the-cleaner for $16.40 per hour, but is now asking to hire Mary-the-cleaner and her phone for $16.40 per hour. That would put the responsibility on Mary to maintain the phone in working order, and the employer could refuse to pay unless both things they are paying for are present and correct. It's a scummy practice, sure, but hiring two things as a package isn't illegal in itself.
- drewzero1 6y ago
  Alternately, the company hired Mary-the-cleaner at $16.40 an hour, and is now asking for Mary-and-her-phone at the same rate. Which puts the responsibility on the company to provide the device they want her to use while she is working.
- teachingassist 6y ago
  > It's a scummy practice, sure, but hiring two things as a package isn't illegal in itself. I believe this would technically depend on whether one is employed or self-employed. Only self-employed people are generally obligated to provide tools of their trade; whereas, personal tracking strongly implies employment. It shouldn't be both. (This all may depend on jurisdiction and specific circumstances, obviously) Given that the article clearly says the person was employed before being required to download an app, this also feels like a breach of contract by the employer. In your terms: They employed the worker, not the worker and their phone.
- unreal37 6y ago
  They didn't require "her phone" until after she was already working for them. They didn't hire two things "as a package".
udhdhxnxn 6y ago
I routinely make a fuss about truck drivers. Dispatch will schedule them for back to back driving shifts and then call the cops on them if they decide they cannot drive safely and need to sleep. The cops are there to do a welfare check (harass them) to get them going again.
ggvvfdde 6y ago
I routinely make a fuss about truck drivers. Dispatch will schedule them for back to back driving shifts and then call the cops on them if they decide they cannot drive safely and need to sleep. The cops are there to do a welfare check (harass them) to get them going again
- zdragnar 6y ago
  Unless the driver has parked in an unsafe location (fire lane, impeding traffic, etc) I cannot imagine a police officer would give a damn about whether or not a truck driver was behind schedule. There are pretty strict legal limits (in the US at least) over how long a driver can be on the road without taking a break. In fact, unless they only hire owner-operators, falling asleep at the wheel and causing an accident will almost certainly jack up the company's insurance rates, much worse than them running behind an overly tight schedule.
  - repiret 6y ago
    Unless the cops were told they absconded with the truck. An abusive trucking company can accuse their drivers of steeling trucks or cargo when they're behind schedule. I've never heard of that happening, but I don't doubt the poster who said it does. It's too bad we don't come down harder on those who make such bad faith accusations of steeling.
    - zdragnar 6y ago
      I have no idea where you are from, but "absconding" isn't really something the police get involved in. Either the driver has a right to be in the truck, at the location he is at, or not. If he does, the police don't care, because there is no crime. If he doesn't, that is theft. If it is theft, they don't let the driver drive on with a promise to behave; the truck (and all the goods in it) get impounded to be claimed by the company and the driver gets hauled off to jail. That would be a way worse outcome for the company.
      - fogihujy 6y ago
duxup 6y ago
Agreed. Provide a phone at the workplace. Pickup phone at the start of the day, check in, toss it in a pocket and go to work. Check out, put phone in locker or some storage... done. But just to expand on that. I think this is one of those things that also kinda demonstrates a lack of faith and trust between the employer and employee and can be damaging to the whole relationship. When I had my first job as a manager (low level technical support job) I was a jerk. Not in what I said but in enforcing rules about what is on people's PCs and etc, because that was how that place operated so I did too. One guy on the verge of quitting asked me "Does any of this really matter / help me do my job?" I realized ... probably not / this was a total hassle for me, and him, and everyone. It was just a big distrusting type environment we had going on. I told him and the rest of my team "I'm not checking PCs anymore or anything like that, just be responsible, make good choices." What happened? The team was happier, and nothing bad happened. I was happier at work, so were they, and I saw customer satisfaction (granted that's a shaky metric) go up ... I assume because everyone was happier / more pleasant to talk to with the customers. Ages later... I still feel kinda dumb about the whole thing. I really emulated the whole asshole hall monitor type thing for a while. It was completely without value / detrimental.
- llampx 6y ago
  As a new manager, especially with a work culture like you describe, it can definitely be easier to go with the flow and be an asshole "like everyone else" If you do things differently, you open yourself up to criticism and if anything does go bad, you're likely never going to hear the end of it. Good on you for stopping that vicious circle and being an example of a good manager.
- vidarh 6y ago
  > I think this is one of those things that also kinda demonstrates a lack of faith and trust between the employer and employee and can be damaging to the whole relationship. This has historically always been an issue in many workplaces. Especially in jobs were people are "interchangeable" and easily replaced and has no leverage, because in those kinds of job the threshold before having the kind of conversation you related becomes much higher, and the incentive for listening lower. The infamous Triangle Waistcoat Factory fire [1], for example, was as lethal as it was because employers locked the factory doors to prevent unauthorised breaks. The worst excesses were stopped because they outright killed people and the technological alternatives were not there. But increasingly technology is becoming a way of virtually caging people instead of actually caging them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fi...
drewzero1 6y ago
Truck driving is an interesting case because there are laws restricting when and how long a driver is allowed to operate, and those hours must be logged. At the same time, that logging is done on a company-owned device (or, less and less often now, a paper log booklet), and only when the employee is using the work vehicle. It's completely unreasonable to expect employees to consent to location tracking when they aren't at work. But if the employer is requiring use of a smartphone app as condition of employment, they need to provide and pay for the device and service, period.
dheera 6y ago
Fully agree. No employer shall tell me what to install on my private phone. Come to think of it this might be a really good reason to get an obscure phone (PinePhone?) as your personal phone so they can't do this. "Yeah, this is my phone, sorry, your app won't work with it" But regardless, employers should provide a work phone if they want an app installed, and the work phone should NOT have to be carried around 24/7 unless it's an on-call rotation, and in which case the rotation duty cycle should be limited to a reasonable number e.g. 10% or less.
elil17 6y ago
Truck drivers are making a huge fuss about electronic logging devices (ELDs). They say these trackers reduce safety in a variety of ways. I recommend the “Over the Road” podcast which is where I learned about this.
kgwxd 6y ago
Isn't it trucks being tracked, not the drivers? I don't anything about that industry but I can't imagine the drivers are made to carry tracking devices.
- type0 6y ago
  It depends, in China drivers are being tracked with face recognition cams and they receive warnings if they start to slumber. Saw it in some TV documentary so I don't remember the sources to this.
seriousquestion 6y ago
> for instance truck drivers are being tracked routinely and nobody makes a big fuss about that Truck drivers and their families did and still do make a fuss about it. It's just not something that the media or wider culture has cared about.
variable11 6y ago
"I think it's fine to wear Stars of David - such practice is well known, for instance."
darig 6y ago
I know people that work IT for schneider national trucking... they have a antenna on the roof that tracks drivers. It's very common for drivers to put a coffee can over it, and blame IT that it doesn't work.
rurp 6y ago
> truck drivers are being tracked routinely and nobody makes a big fuss about that. This is not true. There have been some massive protests from truck drivers over this issue and it's a big turnoff for many potential and current drivers.
soneil 6y ago
This seems so cheap/easy to get right it's nuts. Get the cheapest tablet you can find that's reliable and has GPS. Whack the location app on that. Stick a todo list on it that they can push items to. Sorted. Tie the todo list to the locations and leave it on the cart - you can track the work instead of the person. It doesn't matter if they've gone outside for a smoke, it matters that the work's getting done.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
Shivetya 6y ago
Decades ago we implemented a time card system which worked by having the employee use a phone at the location, many locations had one or more phones which could be used, to clock in and out of work. Since we used an ANI feed you could not spoof it; I cannot guarantee that is or is not possible to spoof now. I certainly cannot agree with requiring workers to use their own phone for this. if the company wants that app then it should provide the phone or use another means to guarantee they are on site. Truckers being tracked is because the penalties involved are very real and enforced for reasons of safety to drivers and other users of the nations roads. tracking someone cleaning buildings or homes is a bit on the absurd side as most of us agree
NullInvictus 6y ago
> truck drivers are being tracked routinely and nobody makes a big fuss about that. I know a number of truck drivers and they _hate_ it. Routing software is imperfect, accidents happen that have to be detoured, and every detour is another grilling by management who is staring you down like you're an inbred imbecile and asking "Why did you deviate?" They often well know why, but the procedure is clear. You just don't hear about it from truckers because the job is mercurial - turnover is high because the conditions suck, and its a lower item in a laundry list of grievances that truckers have. And if I'm frank; A lot of people don't hear about it on this forum because they move in a different economic circle. Being constantly overwatched and second-guessed is demeaning. It ruins work-place dignity, ensures there is no sense of trust between labor and leadership, and removes any feelings of agency from the laborer. As with any data-collecting system, it will also be relentlessly gamed. Worse, you can have your cake and eat it too. You almost never need momentary data like this to check-and-balance your workplace. Why track drivers relentlessly when you can do statistical data analysis on order completion, fuel consumption, route times, and other models that allow you to average out all the chaos? Results will speak for themselves, relationships will pay off. The solution to this 'problem' already exists, it's engaging with your workforce and focusing on results. It is bad. It's dehumanization in the workplace. The system worked just fine when people clocked in, clocked out, and the manager looked and said, "Yep, that hall is clean." I wouldn't accept a keylogger, or strict grilling of my web history. I wouldn't accept being sleuthed on by my manager either. Humans deserve a base level of dignity in the work-place.
- Kye 6y ago
  I got to hear about these truck systems from the subject of it and from someone who used to implement it in the same thread once (don't have a link). Everyone eventually sees that it's rotten, and the implementer in this case got out of the business once they realized the harm they were enabling.
- sumtechguy 6y ago
  I used to write that sort of software. We would coach the dispatchers on how to use the system. If they used it that way most of the time the drivers would start to vandalize the system in some way pretty much every time. We would then talk to the drivers and make sure the dispatchers would use the system correctly too. Every group though would go though the 'you are spying on me' to 'love it'. Recover 1 or 2 stolen loads and suddenly that entire terminal would love the thing. Also at the time electronic logs let most drivers get a pass from the cops. The cops would take one look at it and nope out. I doubt it is that way anymore. Most of the time we encouraged the dispatchers to look for deviation of norm and encourage the drivers to note it (most systems have this built in) and it is in the law anyway even when you had to do it by hand. Mostly it caught that one group of dudes who had particular strip joints they would swing by on the clock. Which was a more of 'dont care you go, but I am not paying for it'. This usually made them even more mad. Mostly because of embarrassment, and the loss of income. Your idea of 'average it out' is exactly how it used to be done (and is still in some cases). But the thing is LTL, short, long haul has razor thin margins. If your average is higher than someone else's they will beat you out in the end. You add in more tracking (because your competitor will) as you need to find those spots where the average is not right and skewed because of years of doing it a different way. If you have dispatchers getting mad for a 20 min deviation then the dispatcher is using the system wrong. The proper way to correct that is for the drivers to talk to them and use the built in messaging systems. If that does not work, document it and take it up with his boss or the shop steward. The dispatcher is probably hot because he had to pay OT to 3 other guys who should have clocked out 2 hours ago because you are late and now they left and no one to unload your stuff. His boss is mad at him because he is 6% overbudget again this month. All because some DOT guy in another state is 6 weeks behind doing their job and has half the interstate down to 1 lane for 30 miles. Given all of that. I would never be a driver. It is a low trust environment... Hence the tracking.
dcanelhas 6y ago
Not that the conditions for the a truck driver are any different in terms of privacy (though they might see more of a benefit for themselves to deter carjackings or kidnappings) but I think that the case for fleet management, logistics and anti-theft/smuggling is a bit stronger than for knowing whether a person is physically present on premises when cleaning a building.
cronix 6y ago
Is the truck driver tracked, or the truck? If the driver leaves the truck, are they still tracked? I think there is a difference between a vehicle being tracked, and an individual person.
Taylor_OD 6y ago
False. Truck drivers are not tracked. Trucks are tracked. Truck drivers are often in their trucks but they are not personally tracked. There is a difference. If the sanitation workers mop and bucket were tracked it would still be silly but much less offensive than asking someone to download a tracking app on their personal device that much be with them at all times.
yesOkButt 6y ago
Maybe it’s just me but I can see a very different liability and risk factor between a janitor and the operator of a multi-ton vehicle carrying a range of goods or hazardous materials to keep track of.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
kazinator 6y ago
Because the private phone is the one the person wants not to be without when they go on their three hour lunch. But that is actually wrong. Suppose I have two devices: work and personal. Suppose I have the choice where to install this thing. I'm going to put it on my personal one, and leave that at my post while I go for that three hour luch. I will take the work device, so I can monitor what is going on at work, and be prepared to scurry back on a moment's notice. Ideally, I would get some second personal device for this app, like an old phone I no longer use. Leave that at work, and go for the three hour lunch with both the work device and the non-decoy personal one.
brailsafe 6y ago
I think the nature of the work is a bit different though. Truck driving is an inherently geospatial and logistical industry, as well as a regulated one in the sense that employers have to make sure their drivers are resting. Likewise, client value is also derived from knowing exactly where their delivery is, if it's delayed, where it's delayed, etc.. Also the trucks are often owned by the company, so they're at the very least just keeping tabs on their assets. This is different than say, a software developer's computer tracking their location for purely surveillance reasons.
ramblerman 6y ago
> I think this is not something bad in itself - such practice is well known, for instance truck drivers are being tracked routinely and nobody makes a big fuss about that. I disagree strongly because this is the typical frog in boiling water scenario. You don't see it coming untill it is too late. Truck drivers are not tracked individually instead the trucks they drive are. This is very different to tracking a human being, even if it is under the guise of a phone. Also a HN reader should at least be able to foresee the dystopian future this leads to. Data analytics on toilet breaks, and how employee 115 seems to take longer than the average by 10% which is now a metric for some middle manager to use.

hombre_fatal 6y ago

Personnel location crosses a line to me. If you want to track location, put the locator on company property like the cleaning cart that custodians push around.

neaden 6y ago
This might be legal, but it's still bad management. If you don't trust your employees and you don't think you can evaluate the results of their work, in this case if things are clean, that's on you as a manager to figure out. Tying it in to the process like this and you end up getting false flags when they spend a long time cleaning a mess, or reward them for not cleaning sufficiently to hit their movement metrics.
- michaelt 6y ago
  A small minority of work can't easily be directly evaluated. If I hire a security patrol company, and they contract to provide a patrol that will visit twice a night and walk around the building, nonperformance would be almost undetectable.
  - neaden 6y ago
    There may be cases sure, but this isn't one of them.
  - ipaddr 6y ago
    If a robbery or damaged occured you would know. If you audited the cameras. If you had a second employee. Tracking location by the second isn't necessary and can be defeated with a rc car and a piece of tape by a 6 year old or robot (the tommy robot from the 80s would be perfect) or drone if you want to stay upto date.
  - HarryHirsch 6y ago
    Punch clocks were standard 100 years ago. The nightguard was supposed to press the button on clocks dotted around the building when he passed them. No app on the personal phone required.
  - yencabulator 6y ago
    Security patrols have little RFID style markers around the building they scan to prove when they were there. That's standard practice at least in Europe.
barbazoo 6y ago
Fwiw, it's not tracking location > The app, called Blip, generates a geofence — a virtual boundary, created by the employer using GPS — that detects when an employee enters or leaves.
- overscore 6y ago
  That is location tracking.
- input_sh 6y ago
  What is that if not location tracking?
  - barbazoo 6y ago
    I understand location tracking as being tracked, i.e. someone knows where I am at any given time. Here it's a binary information. Inside the fence (place of employment) or not. Once you're out, all the employer knows is that you're not at work. Don't get me wrong, I despise this but it's not tracking strictly speaking.
    - type0 6y ago
      How should anyone know this? Is this app open source?
    - input_sh 6y ago
      > Inside the fence (place of employment) or not. But to do that you have to share location permissions all the time with the app. And you have to trust it enough to give it those permissions. Also here's a solution with no app and no location tracking: detect when a phone has connected to on-premise WiFi.
      - m0dest 6y ago
        >Also here's a solution with no app and no location tracking: detect when a phone has connected to on-premise WiFi. I was about to suggest the same. Always-on location tracking is an extremely lazy and disrespectful way to replace a punch card. Here's your replacement app: - When arriving at work, you open the app while on employer's WiFi and tap "Start my shift" - Before leaving work, you open the app and tap "End my shift" (but this is not required) - During your shift, the service tries to periodically validate that your phone is still on WiFi (via LAN pings, silent push notifications that trigger checkins, or background polling) - During your shift, if the service can't verify that your phone is still on the WiFi for 30+ minutes, it sends you a push notification asking you to open the app and check in. Otherwise, it ends your shift. - If there's some WiFi dead zone in the workplace where they need to work for more than an hour, give the employee the option to respond with a one-time GPS location instead of joining the WiFi. Boom. This was not hard. Doesn't even need internal infrastructure; can do this whole thing based on WAN IPs.

CivBase 6y ago

> Employer should provide a phone for an employee and then whatever employer wants can be installed there. If something does not work, well, it is up to employer to provide support. Buy a scanner. Put it in somewhere the building which is accessible by employees (eg custodial office). Give each employee a unique, scannable card with which to identify themselves. Instruct employees to clock in and out by scanning the card. Mission accomplished. No phones or location tracking necessary. What this person's employer did should be illegal, and that extends to other industries as well. A shipping company can track their trailer or their shipments, but they shouldn't be allowed to track the truck driver himself.

snow_mac 6y ago
This is something I've seen at places like Whole Foods. In the bathroom they have a digital card scanner. One day I saw an employee scan their ID, they said that they have to check on certain things every hour and scanning a badge in the bathroom tells their minders that "Hey, the bathroom was checked in on by an employee and thus should be in of good condition". I think something like that is fine and reasonable if your job is to move about a building.
- rrauenza 6y ago
  Corporate security has something like this as well - there are little button shaped things on the wall everywhere they scan with their device as they make their rounds.
  - SllX 6y ago
    Generally anywhere with security patrols, even outside some residential buildings and townhouses in San Francisco.
  - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
    I have a NFC app on my phone, read one of those buttons ... they left it unlocked, so I posted a message. Not sure anyone will read it, presumably they just pick up the location ID in an app. I guess someone could just clone the locations and sit in a chair and spoof it. Library books in my area use NFC, the tags weren't locked on the last book I checked. Probably not a security problem (ha!?), but you'd think the possibility of vandalism would cause them to be locked.

londons_explore 6y ago

You could consider the company is not hiring Mary-the-cleaner for $16.40 per hour, but is now asking to hire Mary-the-cleaner and her phone for $16.40 per hour. That would put the responsibility on Mary to maintain the phone in working order, and the employer could refuse to pay unless both things they are paying for are present and correct. It's a scummy practice, sure, but hiring two things as a package isn't illegal in itself.

drewzero1 6y ago
Alternately, the company hired Mary-the-cleaner at $16.40 an hour, and is now asking for Mary-and-her-phone at the same rate. Which puts the responsibility on the company to provide the device they want her to use while she is working.
teachingassist 6y ago
> It's a scummy practice, sure, but hiring two things as a package isn't illegal in itself. I believe this would technically depend on whether one is employed or self-employed. Only self-employed people are generally obligated to provide tools of their trade; whereas, personal tracking strongly implies employment. It shouldn't be both. (This all may depend on jurisdiction and specific circumstances, obviously) Given that the article clearly says the person was employed before being required to download an app, this also feels like a breach of contract by the employer. In your terms: They employed the worker, not the worker and their phone.
unreal37 6y ago
They didn't require "her phone" until after she was already working for them. They didn't hire two things "as a package".

udhdhxnxn 6y ago

I routinely make a fuss about truck drivers. Dispatch will schedule them for back to back driving shifts and then call the cops on them if they decide they cannot drive safely and need to sleep. The cops are there to do a welfare check (harass them) to get them going again.

ggvvfdde 6y ago

zdragnar 6y ago
Unless the driver has parked in an unsafe location (fire lane, impeding traffic, etc) I cannot imagine a police officer would give a damn about whether or not a truck driver was behind schedule. There are pretty strict legal limits (in the US at least) over how long a driver can be on the road without taking a break. In fact, unless they only hire owner-operators, falling asleep at the wheel and causing an accident will almost certainly jack up the company's insurance rates, much worse than them running behind an overly tight schedule.
- repiret 6y ago
  Unless the cops were told they absconded with the truck. An abusive trucking company can accuse their drivers of steeling trucks or cargo when they're behind schedule. I've never heard of that happening, but I don't doubt the poster who said it does. It's too bad we don't come down harder on those who make such bad faith accusations of steeling.
  - zdragnar 6y ago
    I have no idea where you are from, but "absconding" isn't really something the police get involved in. Either the driver has a right to be in the truck, at the location he is at, or not. If he does, the police don't care, because there is no crime. If he doesn't, that is theft. If it is theft, they don't let the driver drive on with a promise to behave; the truck (and all the goods in it) get impounded to be claimed by the company and the driver gets hauled off to jail. That would be a way worse outcome for the company.
    - fogihujy 6y ago

duxup 6y ago

Agreed. Provide a phone at the workplace. Pickup phone at the start of the day, check in, toss it in a pocket and go to work. Check out, put phone in locker or some storage... done. But just to expand on that. I think this is one of those things that also kinda demonstrates a lack of faith and trust between the employer and employee and can be damaging to the whole relationship. When I had my first job as a manager (low level technical support job) I was a jerk. Not in what I said but in enforcing rules about what is on people's PCs and etc, because that was how that place operated so I did too. One guy on the verge of quitting asked me "Does any of this really matter / help me do my job?" I realized ... probably not / this was a total hassle for me, and him, and everyone. It was just a big distrusting type environment we had going on. I told him and the rest of my team "I'm not checking PCs anymore or anything like that, just be responsible, make good choices." What happened? The team was happier, and nothing bad happened. I was happier at work, so were they, and I saw customer satisfaction (granted that's a shaky metric) go up ... I assume because everyone was happier / more pleasant to talk to with the customers. Ages later... I still feel kinda dumb about the whole thing. I really emulated the whole asshole hall monitor type thing for a while. It was completely without value / detrimental.

llampx 6y ago
As a new manager, especially with a work culture like you describe, it can definitely be easier to go with the flow and be an asshole "like everyone else" If you do things differently, you open yourself up to criticism and if anything does go bad, you're likely never going to hear the end of it. Good on you for stopping that vicious circle and being an example of a good manager.
vidarh 6y ago
> I think this is one of those things that also kinda demonstrates a lack of faith and trust between the employer and employee and can be damaging to the whole relationship. This has historically always been an issue in many workplaces. Especially in jobs were people are "interchangeable" and easily replaced and has no leverage, because in those kinds of job the threshold before having the kind of conversation you related becomes much higher, and the incentive for listening lower. The infamous Triangle Waistcoat Factory fire [1], for example, was as lethal as it was because employers locked the factory doors to prevent unauthorised breaks. The worst excesses were stopped because they outright killed people and the technological alternatives were not there. But increasingly technology is becoming a way of virtually caging people instead of actually caging them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fi...

drewzero1 6y ago

Truck driving is an interesting case because there are laws restricting when and how long a driver is allowed to operate, and those hours must be logged. At the same time, that logging is done on a company-owned device (or, less and less often now, a paper log booklet), and only when the employee is using the work vehicle. It's completely unreasonable to expect employees to consent to location tracking when they aren't at work. But if the employer is requiring use of a smartphone app as condition of employment, they need to provide and pay for the device and service, period.

dheera 6y ago

Fully agree. No employer shall tell me what to install on my private phone. Come to think of it this might be a really good reason to get an obscure phone (PinePhone?) as your personal phone so they can't do this. "Yeah, this is my phone, sorry, your app won't work with it" But regardless, employers should provide a work phone if they want an app installed, and the work phone should NOT have to be carried around 24/7 unless it's an on-call rotation, and in which case the rotation duty cycle should be limited to a reasonable number e.g. 10% or less.

elil17 6y ago

Truck drivers are making a huge fuss about electronic logging devices (ELDs). They say these trackers reduce safety in a variety of ways. I recommend the “Over the Road” podcast which is where I learned about this.

kgwxd 6y ago

Isn't it trucks being tracked, not the drivers? I don't anything about that industry but I can't imagine the drivers are made to carry tracking devices.

type0 6y ago
It depends, in China drivers are being tracked with face recognition cams and they receive warnings if they start to slumber. Saw it in some TV documentary so I don't remember the sources to this.

seriousquestion 6y ago

> for instance truck drivers are being tracked routinely and nobody makes a big fuss about that Truck drivers and their families did and still do make a fuss about it. It's just not something that the media or wider culture has cared about.

variable11 6y ago

"I think it's fine to wear Stars of David - such practice is well known, for instance."

darig 6y ago

I know people that work IT for schneider national trucking... they have a antenna on the roof that tracks drivers. It's very common for drivers to put a coffee can over it, and blame IT that it doesn't work.

rurp 6y ago

> truck drivers are being tracked routinely and nobody makes a big fuss about that. This is not true. There have been some massive protests from truck drivers over this issue and it's a big turnoff for many potential and current drivers.

soneil 6y ago

This seems so cheap/easy to get right it's nuts. Get the cheapest tablet you can find that's reliable and has GPS. Whack the location app on that. Stick a todo list on it that they can push items to. Sorted. Tie the todo list to the locations and leave it on the cart - you can track the work instead of the person. It doesn't matter if they've gone outside for a smoke, it matters that the work's getting done.

deleted 6y ago
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Shivetya 6y ago

Decades ago we implemented a time card system which worked by having the employee use a phone at the location, many locations had one or more phones which could be used, to clock in and out of work. Since we used an ANI feed you could not spoof it; I cannot guarantee that is or is not possible to spoof now. I certainly cannot agree with requiring workers to use their own phone for this. if the company wants that app then it should provide the phone or use another means to guarantee they are on site. Truckers being tracked is because the penalties involved are very real and enforced for reasons of safety to drivers and other users of the nations roads. tracking someone cleaning buildings or homes is a bit on the absurd side as most of us agree

NullInvictus 6y ago

> truck drivers are being tracked routinely and nobody makes a big fuss about that. I know a number of truck drivers and they _hate_ it. Routing software is imperfect, accidents happen that have to be detoured, and every detour is another grilling by management who is staring you down like you're an inbred imbecile and asking "Why did you deviate?" They often well know why, but the procedure is clear. You just don't hear about it from truckers because the job is mercurial - turnover is high because the conditions suck, and its a lower item in a laundry list of grievances that truckers have. And if I'm frank; A lot of people don't hear about it on this forum because they move in a different economic circle. Being constantly overwatched and second-guessed is demeaning. It ruins work-place dignity, ensures there is no sense of trust between labor and leadership, and removes any feelings of agency from the laborer. As with any data-collecting system, it will also be relentlessly gamed. Worse, you can have your cake and eat it too. You almost never need momentary data like this to check-and-balance your workplace. Why track drivers relentlessly when you can do statistical data analysis on order completion, fuel consumption, route times, and other models that allow you to average out all the chaos? Results will speak for themselves, relationships will pay off. The solution to this 'problem' already exists, it's engaging with your workforce and focusing on results. It is bad. It's dehumanization in the workplace. The system worked just fine when people clocked in, clocked out, and the manager looked and said, "Yep, that hall is clean." I wouldn't accept a keylogger, or strict grilling of my web history. I wouldn't accept being sleuthed on by my manager either. Humans deserve a base level of dignity in the work-place.

Kye 6y ago
I got to hear about these truck systems from the subject of it and from someone who used to implement it in the same thread once (don't have a link). Everyone eventually sees that it's rotten, and the implementer in this case got out of the business once they realized the harm they were enabling.
sumtechguy 6y ago
I used to write that sort of software. We would coach the dispatchers on how to use the system. If they used it that way most of the time the drivers would start to vandalize the system in some way pretty much every time. We would then talk to the drivers and make sure the dispatchers would use the system correctly too. Every group though would go though the 'you are spying on me' to 'love it'. Recover 1 or 2 stolen loads and suddenly that entire terminal would love the thing. Also at the time electronic logs let most drivers get a pass from the cops. The cops would take one look at it and nope out. I doubt it is that way anymore. Most of the time we encouraged the dispatchers to look for deviation of norm and encourage the drivers to note it (most systems have this built in) and it is in the law anyway even when you had to do it by hand. Mostly it caught that one group of dudes who had particular strip joints they would swing by on the clock. Which was a more of 'dont care you go, but I am not paying for it'. This usually made them even more mad. Mostly because of embarrassment, and the loss of income. Your idea of 'average it out' is exactly how it used to be done (and is still in some cases). But the thing is LTL, short, long haul has razor thin margins. If your average is higher than someone else's they will beat you out in the end. You add in more tracking (because your competitor will) as you need to find those spots where the average is not right and skewed because of years of doing it a different way. If you have dispatchers getting mad for a 20 min deviation then the dispatcher is using the system wrong. The proper way to correct that is for the drivers to talk to them and use the built in messaging systems. If that does not work, document it and take it up with his boss or the shop steward. The dispatcher is probably hot because he had to pay OT to 3 other guys who should have clocked out 2 hours ago because you are late and now they left and no one to unload your stuff. His boss is mad at him because he is 6% overbudget again this month. All because some DOT guy in another state is 6 weeks behind doing their job and has half the interstate down to 1 lane for 30 miles. Given all of that. I would never be a driver. It is a low trust environment... Hence the tracking.

dcanelhas 6y ago

Not that the conditions for the a truck driver are any different in terms of privacy (though they might see more of a benefit for themselves to deter carjackings or kidnappings) but I think that the case for fleet management, logistics and anti-theft/smuggling is a bit stronger than for knowing whether a person is physically present on premises when cleaning a building.

cronix 6y ago

Is the truck driver tracked, or the truck? If the driver leaves the truck, are they still tracked? I think there is a difference between a vehicle being tracked, and an individual person.

Taylor_OD 6y ago

False. Truck drivers are not tracked. Trucks are tracked. Truck drivers are often in their trucks but they are not personally tracked. There is a difference. If the sanitation workers mop and bucket were tracked it would still be silly but much less offensive than asking someone to download a tracking app on their personal device that much be with them at all times.

yesOkButt 6y ago

Maybe it’s just me but I can see a very different liability and risk factor between a janitor and the operator of a multi-ton vehicle carrying a range of goods or hazardous materials to keep track of.

deleted 6y ago

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kazinator 6y ago

Because the private phone is the one the person wants not to be without when they go on their three hour lunch. But that is actually wrong. Suppose I have two devices: work and personal. Suppose I have the choice where to install this thing. I'm going to put it on my personal one, and leave that at my post while I go for that three hour luch. I will take the work device, so I can monitor what is going on at work, and be prepared to scurry back on a moment's notice. Ideally, I would get some second personal device for this app, like an old phone I no longer use. Leave that at work, and go for the three hour lunch with both the work device and the non-decoy personal one.

brailsafe 6y ago

I think the nature of the work is a bit different though. Truck driving is an inherently geospatial and logistical industry, as well as a regulated one in the sense that employers have to make sure their drivers are resting. Likewise, client value is also derived from knowing exactly where their delivery is, if it's delayed, where it's delayed, etc.. Also the trucks are often owned by the company, so they're at the very least just keeping tabs on their assets. This is different than say, a software developer's computer tracking their location for purely surveillance reasons.

ramblerman 6y ago

> I think this is not something bad in itself - such practice is well known, for instance truck drivers are being tracked routinely and nobody makes a big fuss about that. I disagree strongly because this is the typical frog in boiling water scenario. You don't see it coming untill it is too late. Truck drivers are not tracked individually instead the trucks they drive are. This is very different to tracking a human being, even if it is under the guise of a phone. Also a HN reader should at least be able to foresee the dystopian future this leads to. Data analytics on toilet breaks, and how employee 115 seems to take longer than the average by 10% which is now a metric for some middle manager to use.