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I bought ISO 8601-1:2019 and 8601-2:2019
- npongratz 6y agoThe surprises never cease: > Further below, in § 4.2.2, it's noted that the ordinal day number of the week starts at 1, which is Monday. 2000-01-01 is defined to be Saturday and the week calendar continues as a series of contiguous calendar weeks. This leads to e.g. the first day of 2019-W1 (a Monday) being 2018-12-31.
- jorams 6y agoMonday is considered the first day of the week in many countries[1]. Week years are based on the year in which most of the week occurs / whichever year contains the Thursday. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_days_of_the_week#Numbered_days_of_the_week https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_days_of_the_week#...
- masklinn 6y agoI assume you are american? That's the definition of the ISO week, which is very much the standard and in common use throughout europe. Monday being the first day of the week is also standard in europe.
- npongratz 6y agoThe concept of Monday being the first day of the week isn't what surprises me. It was interesting to see the first day of the first week of 2019 is a date in 2018. EDIT: And I'm not in any way rendering judgment, merely uttering surprise. (The country that claims me as its citizen is irrelevant, and obviously we are indeed discussing ISO's definition of a "week". )
- randallsquared 6y agoIf weeks are to be considered as a unit that exists "in" a year, then there is no non-surprising solution to this notion of the first and last week of the year.
- Dylan16807 6y agoDepends on your threshold of surprise. I would say that the end of a week going into the next year is much less surprising or even non-surprising.
- gowld 6y agoIt's surprising that a day in 2019 is not part of a week in 2019.
- Dylan16807 6y agoOut of context yes. In context the direction matters. If I say that 3am on Saturday is part of "Friday night", that's not very surprising. If I say that 10pm on Monday is part of "Tuesday morning", that's quite surprising.
- masklinn 6y ago> (The country that claims me as its citizen is irrelevant) The country is indeed irrelevant. The culture however is not: as I noted, this week ordinal definition is standard in europe, and the only people I've seen 1. not know about this definition of the week (and the concept of week-year) and 2. care enough to express any sort of surprise, have been american. > we are indeed discussing ISO's definition of a "week". The information in my comment was that this is the standard week in europe, any time somebody talks in weeks (which is common in many, many businesses, people'll tell you they'll do a job W23, or will ship your order W36), that's the one they're talking about.
- mvolfik 6y agoI think there was some bug in a big service (Twitter? very unsure) a few years ago related to this conflict of ISO and 'real' year
- OJFord 6y agoWell, there are I think only two reasonable definitions. One leads to the first day of the week being in the previous year; the other to the first day of the first week being six days into the year. Each is independently 'surprising' in that it seems 'obviously wrong' without thinking about it.
- pimlottc 6y agoA common date formatting error is to accidentally use the “iso week year” instead of “calendar year”, which is the same 99% of the time except sometimes at the end of the year, as your example shows. https://ericasadun.com/2018/12/25/iso-8601-yyyy-yyyy-and-why-your-year-may-be-wrong/ https://ericasadun.com/2018/12/25/iso-8601-yyyy-yyyy-and-why...
- throw0101a 6y agoI am both surprised and not surprised that a /r/ISO8601 exists.
- cbsks 6y agoBetter link: https://old.reddit.com/r/ISO8601/comments/mikuj1/i_bought_iso_860112019_and_860122019_ask_me/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ISO8601/comments/mikuj1/i_bought_is...
- boogies 6y agoeven more betterer https://teddit.net/r/ISO8601/comments/mikuj1/i_bought_iso_860112019_and_860122019_ask_me/?theme=dark https://teddit.net/r/ISO8601/comments/mikuj1/i_bought_iso_86...
- fotta 6y ago>> So you paid approx $5* per content page for one of the most boring readings in your entire life, just for the lulz? > I paid approximately five U. S. dollars per content page for one of the most boring readings in my entire life, just for the lulz. > Recall that I did not claim to have made a reasonable financial decision. I did not, in fact, make a reasonable (or even defensible) financial decision. This is my way of coping with buyer's regret. Hahahaha this was my favorite part. https://old.reddit.com/r/ISO8601/comments/mikuj1/i_bought_iso_860112019_and_860122019_ask_me/gt5bv1y/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ISO8601/comments/mikuj1/i_bought_is... edit: > From what I can tell, they were written with Microsoft Word going by the line breaking and the use of Cambria as font. I don't think I could call it aesthetically pleasing without being insincere, however. Too much is wrong in terms of what I consider to be good typography (which mostly aligns with Butterick's Practical Typography). At least it's not Arial?
- gota 6y agoWhat's wrong with Arial? I should be more aware of typography stuff, but which font (and why) would you use instead of Arial for, say, the Headings and normal paragraph in a technical report?
- themulticaster 6y agoEssentially, the argument made by Butterick and others is that choosing Arial as a font is not a choice but indicates the absence of a choice, since it is a system font. [1] At the very end of that page he writes a few paragraphs exactly why he dislikes Arial. Regarding alternatives: "[...] Arial is permanently associated with the work of people who will never care about typography. You’re not one of those people. So use Avenir. Use Franklin Gothic. Use Gill Sans. Use one of the fonts listed in Helvetica and Arial alternatives [2]. Or use something completely different. But don’t use Arial. It’s the sans serif of last resort." [1] https://practicaltypography.com/system-fonts.html https://practicaltypography.com/system-fonts.html [2] https://practicaltypography.com/helvetica-and-arial-alternatives.html https://practicaltypography.com/helvetica-and-arial-alternat...
- 6y ago
- nabla9 6y agoISO 8601 is nice From ISO 8601 Third edition 2004-12-01 ---8<---- The following are examples of complete representations of date and time of day representations: Basic format: YYYYMMDDThhmmss YYYYMMDDThhmmssZ YYYYMMDDThhmmss±hhmm YYYYMMDDThhmmss±hh Example: 19850412T101530 19850412T101530Z 19850412T101530+0400 19850412T101530+04 Extended format: YYYY-MM-DDThh:mm:ss YYYY-MM-DDThh:mm:ssZ YYYY-MM-DDThh:mm:ss±hh:mm YYYY-MM-DDThh:mm:ss±hh Example: 1985-04-12T10:15:30 1985-04-12T10:15:30Z 1985-04-12T10:15:30+04:00 1985-04-12T10:15:30+04 ---8<---- 4.5.3 Complete representations (recurring time intervals) When the application identifies the need for a complete representation of a recurring time interval, it shall use an expression in accordance with 4.5.2, combining any complete time interval representation as defined in 4.4.4 with the number of recurrences. Basic format: Rn/YYYYMMDDThhmmss/YYYYMMDDThhmmss Rn/PnnYnnMnnDTnnHnnMnnS Rn/YYYYMMDDThhmmss/PnnYnnMnnDTnnHnnMnnS RnPnnYnnMnnDTnnHnnMnnS/YYYYMMDDThhmmss Example: R12/19850412T232050/19850625T103000 R12/P2Y10M15DT10H30M20S R12/19850412T232050/P1Y2M15DT12H30M0S R12/P1Y2M15DT12H30M0S/19850412T232050 Extended format: Rn/YYYY-MM-DDThh:mm:ss/YYYY-MM-DDThh:mm:ss Rn/YYYY-MM-DDThh:mm:ss/PnYnMnDTnHnMnS Rn/PnnYnnMnnDTnnHnnMnnS/YYYY-MM-DDThh:mm:ss Example: R12/l985-04-12T23:20:50/1985-06-25T10:30:00 R12/1985-04-12T23:20:50/P1Y2M15DT12H30M0S R12/P1Y2M15DT12H30M0S/1985-04-12T23:20:50
- randallsquared 6y agoISO 8601 recurring intervals are very nice and well thought out. Sadly, they are a corner of the standard that almost no one supports completely.
- jolmg 6y agoWhat's their use? I can't figure it out. At first, I thought it was going to be something that would allow one to express, e.g. I start work from this date, from this hour to this hour, these days of the week. But the format seems to only express contiguous intervals. What's the point of recurring intervals if they're limited to be contiguous? You could just join them into one interval. EDIT: Or am I wrongly assuming that they're contiguous and rather they just don't specify when they repeat?
- a_c 6y agoIt wasn't apparent to me what "buying a standard" mean. I thought the OP owned the standard for a period of time as in domain name. Turns out the OP owns a printout of the standard
- bmn__ 6y agoIt's analogue to buying a book or movie. Of course you only get a copy of the material.
- avhon1 6y agoNot necessarily. For example, for about $4,000,000,000, Disney bought Star Wars: the Complete Collection, including all rights and trademarks. Not just copies of the movies, but actual ownership of the concept of "Star Wars", in exchange for nothing more than (a whole lot of) money.
- banana_giraffe 6y agoWell, 4e9 + 7e10, since they had to get both Lucasfilm and Fox to get all the rights for Star Wars.
- fuzxi 6y agoIt's ambiguous. It could refer to buying [a copy of], or buying [the rights to].
- jrochkind1 6y agoI would ordinarily say I bought a copy of The Hobbit, but I guess if I said "Hey I bought The Hobbit the other day", people would assume I meant the book. I'd normally say "I bought a copy of ISO 8601". In this case I think the author thought it was a little funny to say "I bought iso 8601".
- jolmg 6y agoHas anyone here ever consider buying or have bought an ISO standard? Which one?
- bmn__ 6y agoI wanted a copy a couple of times per year, but never considered buying. With some exceptions, they are available elsewhere as a gratis download. All hail https://enwp.org/Libgen https://enwp.org/Libgen https://enwp.org/Z-Library https://enwp.org/Z-Library Most recent one was ISO 9, just to satisfy curiosity.
- rjsw 6y agoI have been given bound paper copies of ones that I wrote. Can also download PDFs of any that would be useful in developing new standards, I don't need to buy them.
- jolmg 6y agoWow. Which ones did you write?
- lkuty 6y agoC, C++, Prolog. The ANSI versions because it is cheaper. ISO standards are expensive. Standards could be very precise and effective in providing information but the experience varies wildly. I like RFCs which I find quite readable.
- the_only_law 6y agoCan’t think of any ISO standard off the top of my head, but there’s a few standards I’ve looked at purchasing before. Particularly IEEE, but some of those can be very expensive. A lot of the standards I look at are ITU or from some independent vendor available for free or at a low cost.
- adolph 6y ago25237, Health informatics — Pseudonymization AMA
- rgovostes 6y agoPublic.Resource.Org has been leading a (mostly?) one-man crusade that holds that any standard that is referenced by a U.S. law can no longer be copyrighted. They have had mixed success in court. Here's an example (with signature cover sheet): https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/004/iso.6406.2005.pdf https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/004/iso.6406.2005.pd...
- black_puppydog 6y agoSo I'm not gonna disagree with that, but playing devils advocate here for a moment... Doesn't that mean that by virtue of referencing a standard in a US law, congress unilaterally voids the copyright holder's claims? I wonder how that would go down if the Belgian government decided to reference a song text by a US artist in a law and then claimed that copyright no longer applies to this song in Belgium.
- samus 6y agoIn a republic, law must be public. If a law references a document that cannot be accessed with the same ease as the law itself, it creates barries for heeding it correctly. I must be able to go to a library or an online platform and look it up with the same ease as the law itself. Everything else would result in a Kafkaesque system where the true version is only known to the elites, and probably doesn't even exist as such.
- adolph 6y ago> In a republic, law must be public Let’s say you’re a volunteer firefighter and you want to buy a copy of the California fire code and copy it for your fellow volunteers. By doing so, you’re breaking the law, according to the state; each of them would have to buy it separately from a national fire safety organization, for a couple of hundred dollars a shot. [...] When Malamud asked the Office of Administrative Law to provide an up-to-date electronic version of almost the entire Code of Regulations, it responded that it didn’t have such a version in its possession. The office said it could provide Malamud with a paper copy of the code’s 38 volumes, at 20 cents a page. There are 29,000 pages. If he required a digital version, the office would scan its own paper copy into a digital file for a much higher, albeit unspecified, price, payable in advance. https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-03-18/state-laws-copyrighted https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-03-18/state-laws...
- majewsky 6y ago> I've got a copy of the two most useful(?) standards of our time. I wonder if the pun was intended. EDIT: According to the comments over there, it was.
- fanf2 6y agoThe midnight (end of day) 24:00 notation is a curious case. The copy I have of a draft of ISO 8601:2019 removed it, which I thought was a shame. But the end of this comment https://old.reddit.com/r/ISO8601/comments/mikuj1/i_bought_iso_860112019_and_860122019_ask_me/gt5a5zj/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ISO8601/comments/mikuj1/i_bought_is... suggests that this change didn’t survive into the final standard, so 24:00 is still allowed, as in older editions of ISO 8601.
- globular-toast 6y agoThis relates to how I learnt about ISO8601 as a teenager (c. 2005) My parents had an oven manufactured by Neff (part of the BSH group including Bosch and Siemens). This oven displayed midnight as 24:00. I was rarely in the kitchen at midnight, so it was years until I just happened to walk into the kitchen at the right time to 24:00 on the display. It was so weird I think I continued to stare at it for the remainder of the minute until it ticked over to 0:01. I wrote directly to Neff to ask them about it. I speculated that it was a design decision to reduce ambiguity between the clock and the timer countdown, which shared the same display, and asked them if this was the case. I can't remember what email address I used, but after a bit of bouncing around and piquing people's curiosity it ended up with someone in their engineering department. They looked into it and actually quoted ISO8601 to me. They said, while they agree it is a bit strange, it's not actually out of spec and therefore not technically a bug. They didn't agree with my theory about ambiguity since many other times would still be ambiguous (e.g. 0:01). But since the clock circuit is a sourced component they could only speculate on why 24:00 was chosen over 0:00. They also confirmed that Bosch and Siemens ovens both display 0:00 and only Neff displays 24:00. I've since noticed that 24:00 is used on train timetables when the time of arrival is midnight.
- cromulent 6y agoThere are a few documents available on the US Library of Congress site. https://www.google.fi/search?q=site%3Aloc.gov+iso+8601 https://www.google.fi/search?q=site%3Aloc.gov+iso+8601
- MaxBarraclough 6y agoSomewhat related discussion from 25 days ago: ISO obstructs adoption of standards by paywalling them (about the Tim Sweeney tweet). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26390040 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26390040
- gowld 6y agoTim Sweeney is still wrong. Standards are paywalled by their national standards bodies, not the ISO. And final draft standards are available for free anyway. Furthermore, a multi-billionaire, who made his money ripping off children, complaining about paywalls is a farce.
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago> Standards are paywalled by their national standards bodies, not the ISO. That doesn't sound right. If I want access to the C++ standard document, I am required to pay ISO for the privilege. ISO hold the copyrights to the document. There are no national standards bodies in sight. > And final draft standards are available for free anyway. People don't want an approximation of the standard, they want the standard itself. If that weren't true, ISO wouldn't be taking this approach.
- pezezin 6y ago> Furthermore, a multi-billionaire, who made his money ripping off children, complaining about paywalls is a farce. Epic Games was founded 25 years before Fortnite was released, and it was already a big company when Fortnite arrived.
- vnxli 6y agoAnybody know why the account was deleted. Did the poster fear for copyright violations?
- Kliment 6y agoI suspect it was a temporary throwaway account
- etaioinshrdlu 6y agoI can't believe that this is actually copyrighted. How can such a foundational standard not be public domain? What's next? Copyrighting latitude and longitude? (China for the record, doesn't want you to know the lat/lon of anything in China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_data_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_dat...)
- suprfsat 6y agoLatitude and longitude are in the public domain, being inventions of the US military.
- robjan 6y agoThe idea of latitude and longitude was invented in Greece couple of millennia ago and the first accurate instrument to measure them was invented by the John Harrison, a Brit, before the USA was founded.
- diarrhea 6y agoSuch US-centric thinking reminds me of one of my favourite terms: the USS Titanic.
- maxnoe 6y agoHahaha, no. Why would the 0deg longitude be at the Greenwhich Observatory if the US military invented it???
- globular-toast 6y agoIs this comment perhaps referring to the WGS84 datum?
- ddevault 6y agoExercise your civil disobedience: http://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=3A72C1636EFF4111F923AC1E46170A95 http://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=3A72C1636EFF4111F923AC1E... Open standards or bust. Accept no substitutes.
- exikyut 6y agoThis is the 2004 version. "iso 8601 2019" doesn't return any results.
- rdpintqogeogsaa 6y agoISO watermarks their standards, so uploading it is pointless risk since you don't know if there are invisible watermarks as well.
- exikyut 6y agoOooh, interesting. How does this work?
- akerl_ 6y agoGenerally, you can consider this an application of Steganography, so searching for that should turn up a number of references showing off how it can be done. Most file formats have attributes where arbitrary data can be inserted without affecting the user’s interaction with the file (for example, making tweaks to the Least Significant Bits for the colors in a JPEG or similar image file). While in the general case, steganography is discussed in the context of passing secret messages from A to B, watermarking uses steganography to hide a unique identifier that the document’s author can use later to identify whose copy of the document they’re looking at. So in a very basic scenario, the vendor might just shove “exikyut” into a non-visible object on the document, and then when they find the document published online, they check that object and see the username of the person who leaked it. Obviously in the real world, watermarking attempts to obscure the unique identifier’s placement and contents, such that it cannot be easily identified/removed, and so that only the vendor can match a document to its originating user.
- nickt 6y agoFor anyone wondering, 8601 is the time and date format one.
- spurgu 6y agoInterestingly I immediately recognized it. I love the format since it's sortable alphabetically going from highest to lowest "denominations" (for lack of a better word). Edit: I was actually working with `.toISOString()` today and was slightly disappointed to realize that it doesn't work as filenames (due to the colons) so I ended up doing `.replace(':', '-')`.
- bellyfullofbac 6y agoOnce I wanted to have the colons in my filenames so my eyes didn't have to parse all the dashes, so I used Unicode U+A789 MODIFIER LETTER COLON. Windows didn't complain, and since it was for my own use only, I was sure it wasn't going to confuse others.
- seniorsassycat 6y agoOnly sortable for the next 8,000 years :)
- enw 6y agoOnly sortable when using a consistent ISO 8601 format.
- jrochkind1 6y agoIt seems increasing insane to have standards related to software interoperability that are not in the public domain, doesn't it? I know (or assume) that the purchase money pays for activities that need to be done. But this doesn't seem like a good way to do it. On the other hand, maybe nobody pays attention to software interoperability standards anymore anyway.
- koolba 6y agoThe answer to this is the same as the answer for eliminating tracking pixels in email. Requiring inline content. If a law is referencing something, it needs to be inclined in the public text of the law. If it can’t for copyright reasons, then get a license for such or design a different law.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- cookiengineer 6y agoI was asking OP there if he could provide me with a list of edge cases of formatted strings to help me test my parser implementation. This alone pushed me probably weeks ahead...I think that's what I dislike the most about it: missing reference implementations of ISO standards that also contain testsuites. I mean, without that it's just yet another paper. A standard is useless when it's not public. But it's even more useless when there's no unified testsuite to test your implementation against. Looking at you too, IETF and everything related to the Web.
- rdpintqogeogsaa 6y agoCryptography people tend to be good about providing test vectors, especially in the IETF CFRG. Unfortunately, it's not as a common a practice as one would like.
- cookiengineer 6y agoI was thinking more about the lack of testsuites for everything related to network protocols, such as DNS, HTTP or WebSockets and WebRTC. The RFCs related to DNS are an endless list of deprecations that you have to "merge" in your head until you actually know what is allowed, what is deprecated, and what was extended. Especially with EDNS and all its options that are somewhat somewhere on the IANA website. Before that, I realized that not a single server implementation implements HTTP's 206 Partial Content and/or Transfer-Encodings as specified; and lots of servers even reply with wrong buffer sizes when requesting multiple Content Ranges. When reading through the Chromium and Firefox codebases, there's always dirty hacks that are implementation specific, so there isn't any end-to-end networked-only testsuite that verifies the network states and behaviours. For my own Browser Stealth [1] I had to create a testsuite because I couldn't find anyone that's not related to known SSL attack vectors. Due to the peer-to-peer concept I decided to test network behaviours wherever possible. The network protocols themselves (when speaking of RFCs) are just not tested, and freely interpreted at will - even in older projects like apache, caddy, curl, libaria and others. When reading the curl codebase you'll soon realize that it is a huge collection of hacks he had to implement just to make things work when the servers were behaving incompliant to the specifications. [1] https://github.com/tholian-network/stealth https://github.com/tholian-network/stealth