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“Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thi

“Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship—be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble Truths, or some inviolable set of ethical principles—is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive. If you worship money and things, if they are where you tap real meaning in life, then you will never have enough, never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly. And when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally grieve you. On one level, we all know this stuff already. It's been codified as myths, proverbs, clichés, epigrams, parables; the skeleton of every great story. The whole trick is keeping the truth up front in daily consciousness.” David Foster Wallace

nyghtly 6y ago
Here's the full speech for anyone who took an interest in this excerpt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI In my opinion, it's one of the best graduation speeches of all time.
- sharkweek 6y ago
  I have absolutely tried to hard wire the "choose how to think" into my brain. It is never easy. His example of the swerving SUV racing through traffic maybe just possibly driving that way because of a personal emergency stuck with me. I don't have to assume the worst of people who are acting in a way I don't agree with, and to consider this anytime I'm getting worked up over something can be quite helpful.
- hexane360 6y ago
  I much prefer Stephen Colbert's Northwestern commencement speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6tiaooiIo0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6tiaooiIo0 And a transcript: https://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2011/06/colbert-speech-text.html https://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2011/06/colb... > But if we should serve others, and together serve some common goal or idea - for any one you, what is that idea? And who are those people? > In my experience, you will truly serve only what you love, because, as the prophet says, service is love made visible. > If you love friends, you will serve your friends. > If you love community, you will serve your community. > If you love money, you will serve your money. > And if you love only yourself, you will serve only yourself. And you will have only yourself. So no more winning. Instead, try to love others and serve others, and hopefully find those who love and serve you in return.
  - jimbokun 6y ago
    Interesting, there's a similar theme there, except with "love" instead of "worship".
lordylord 6y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MzyBv4yOPU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MzyBv4yOPU
jandrese 6y ago
I find the idea that faith can't eat you alive to be strange given that we have so many examples of that happening in real life. Faith is no different than money, power, allure, etc... in that regard. That's one reason people turn to atheism in the first place, to avoid getting gobbled up by religion.
- marcosdumay 6y ago
  Personally, I've seen churches eat way more people alive than greed or any other power allure. Beauty consumes people at the beginning of life, but most get away from it at the start of adult age. The only other things that come close are political ideologies and personality cults.
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    I have minor criminal cousin named Jake, Jake doesn't claim to be anything else, unlike most Christians I've known who feel morally superior yet hold some of the least humanitarian ideas I've ever known. At least cousin Jake doesn't lie to himself about what he is.
- petre 6y ago
  I really don't understand why some people have to turn to atheism when not participating in organised religion is quite easy enough. This is what the article implies, church membership as opposed to faith. Why even bother to deny something that others believe without proof and needlessly argue about it? Maybe it makes them happy, more secure. Vocal atheists usually annoy me more than christian evanghelists, mostly because of the negative message.
  - methodin 6y ago
    Because the U.S. still has not even come close to mastering the separation of church and state which means depending on where you live it will confront you frequently whether you like or not. Burying your head in the sand does nothing if you believe the premise of that separation is virtuous. I am not atheist myself but I have yet to see anyone I know be vocal about their atheism, yet I know many that are vocal about their religious views. I am curious where you see vocal atheists enough that they annoy you?
nimbius 6y ago
forgive me if im not moved by the edict of an alcoholic misogynist trying to assuage his own fears of moral impropriety and existential castaway after failing twice to join the Catholic church. Wallace enrobes the exhausted and derisive narrative of evangelicals confronted with an alternative to the almighty they themselves find personally intolerable in an almost comically dismissive tone. At least Thomas Aquinas had the decency to avoid Reducto ad Absurdum when he published his metaphysical treatise. Had we only outlawed the semiconductor im sure Gallup would enjoy a more sterling report of gods children, however i myself may be amiss. Christian Evangelism on the whole has seen a marked decline since its apex during the second Bush administration.
rmah 6y ago
In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.
- elmomle 6y ago
  It's pretty clear that that "worship" here refers to where we practice focusing our heart's yearnings, not to a set of religious rites. Synonyms of this meaning of "worship" include "revere" and "venerate".
  - tmpz22 6y ago
    The crux of organized religion is being so vague that an individual can pick whatever parts of it fits into their own self-image. Thats what OP is tapping into in their quote. The Bible is re-written every 100 years to accommodate this.
    - cobri 6y ago
      >>"The Bible is re-written every 100 years to accommodate this." This is provably false. "It cannot be too strongly asserted that in substance the text of the Bible is certain: Especially is this the case with the New Testament, of early translations from it, and of quotations from it in the oldest writers of the Church, is so large that it is practically certain that the true reading of every doubtful passage is preserved in some one or other of these ancient authorities. This can be said of no other ancient book in the world."[1] As an example, the New Testament is 25x more accurately copied across manuscripts than the Iliad [2]. "The variant readings about which any doubt remains among textual critics of the New Testament affect no material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice."[3] [1] Kenyon, "Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts", p. 23 [2] Bruce M. Metzger, "Chapters in the History of New Testament Textual Criticism", cited by Geisler and Nix, "A General Introduction to the Bible", pp. 366f [3] F.F. Bruce, "The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?" p. 15
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[deleted]
alfiedotwtf 6y ago
> is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive I’ve seen plenty of people who have dedicated themselves to religion, made it completely consuming (ie go to church every day, God is the only thing they talk about, and the Bible is their only frame of reference), and they are unhappy because Religion itself has eaten them alive. How wrong Wallace was.
booleandilemma 6y ago
I could never take this guy seriously. I mean, he killed himself. Why should we listen to what he has to say?
- throwaway823882 6y ago
  Aaron Swartz
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- RankingMember 6y ago
  Do you also not take Alan Turing's works seriously?
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    This doesn't make sense. You can't argue with Turing's math and algorithmic discoveries/creations (unless you can prove them wrong) but you certainly can some of his flawed philosophies. QED False equivocation.
  - borepop 6y ago
    Turing's work has some independent value, it's not just a mess of philosophical/moral opinions like Wallace is offering up in this speech. If nothing else, Wallace's suicide illustrates to me what a gulf there is between "saying things that sound wise" and actually living wisely. One has very little to do with the other.
    - caslon 6y ago
      A suicide doesn't mean your life wasn't lived wisely. He was suffering from a clinically-diagnosed depressive disorder, was told to stop taking antidepressants by his own doctor, and was recommended to try electric shock as an alternative. His suicide was less "stupid man is sad" than "Wow, look! The medical industry isn't even trying to fix depression."
grae_QED 6y ago
I think Wallace is right in a sense. But I think 'worship' is the wrong word and if we're interpreting this literally then no, there is such thing as atheism. I get the sense people too often take this quote out of context to suggest atheism is some form of religion. Wallace was a master of the metaphor. I don't believe that he meant this literally. I think he could have used the word 'nihilist' instead and gotten the point across but I understand why he didn't.
abootstrapper 6y ago
I guess this makes sense if you define “atheism” as “not obsessing over something” and “worship” as a synonym for “unhealthy obsession.” I take issue with those definitions, and also with the premise that an adult must have an unhealthy obsession over something. What if I told you, I don’t believe in god, nor obsess over money or beauty. Oh, I guess I “worship” all things in moderation and healthy relationships.
ggggtez 6y ago
Spoken like someone with white privilege.
- CanceledAccount 6y ago
  What does race have to do with this?
  - OOPMan 6y ago
    Tarring
stjohnswarts 6y ago
This is just some philosophical mental masturbation and many others have done it better. To say everyone worships something is to conflate worship with desire, ambition, and god knows how many other emotions. It's all kind of silly and just plain oversimplification.
igorkraw 6y ago
I prefer Camus personally. The act of rebellion against ...well everything, but in this case against things to worship, against stories that try to hide the absurdity of the universe seems to me a narrative much less likely to be led astray in harmful ways, since it gives you no power or secret insight, only personal despair and personal happiness. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/camus/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/camus/ https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Camus https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Camus "I don't know whether this world has a meaning that transcends it. But I know that I cannot know that meaning and that it is impossible for me just now to know it. What can a meaning outside my condition mean to me? I can understand only in human terms. What I touch, what resists me — that I understand. And these two certainties — my appetite for the absolute and for unity and the impossibility of reducing this world to a rational and reasonable principle — I also know that I cannot reconcile them. What other truth can I admit without lying, without bringing in a hope I lack and which means nothing within the limits of my conditions?"
- nickthemagicman 6y ago
  I love Camus as well. His idea of absurdism really struck a chord with me. We're on this ride in life where we just keep passing through absurd situations. It's a really comical extension to an existentialism. "Should I kill myself or have a cup of coffee?"
jacurtis 6y ago
> ...pretty much anything else you worship [other than religion] will eat you alive. If you worship money and things... then you will never have enough, never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly. And when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally grieve you. This is implying that worshiping religion/god/spirituality is exempt from extreme obsession. But I have to contest that religion can create far more extreme of obsessions than other forms of "worship" that Wallace references such as beauty, money, etc.. I grew up religious (in a high-demand religion) and saw that the religion created extremists among most of our church members. While an obsessive "worship" of losing weight can lead to anorexia, we see a good thing become bad. Being interesting in beauty isn't bad by itself, but an obsessive/extreme version can lead to depression and many other things. Religion is no exception (even though Wallace seems to exclude it). An obsession over religion leads people to over analyze their life in the search of being perfect. It forces them to make unnecessary sacrifices for a reward that they will never actually attain. I've seen it tear apart families as bad as alcohol abuse or domestic violence can. There is a very dark, evil side to religion. The religion I was involved with put so much pressure on people to live life a certain way, to be perfect, that it was unattainable. The religion's goal is to enforce compliance and promote unity through shared suffering. But it has negative effects too. I've lost many close friends (including one roommate) who committed suicide from church pressures. Prescription drug abuse is particularly bad within the community that I grew up in, I personally know several people who have life-long addictions to prescription opioids that started from church pressures. I have seen domestic violence and child sexual abuse, all justified (and protected and buried) under religious arguments. My personal experience with religion shows consequences that far exceed those of other obsessions such as wealth, beauty, fitness, drugs, and so on. So I would be very careful about giving religion a "pass". Are all religions bad? Probably not. I know plenty of people who have healthy relationships with religion. But the bad stuff is definitely there too, and it is FAR from rare. And I am only talking about relatively tame religions too. We can go even more extreme and start discussing the effects that religion have had on promoting unspeakable acts such as the holocaust, the crusades, the jihads, 9/11 attacks, the inquisition, Boston marathon bombs, numerous mass shootings, Incan & Mayan sacrifices, the KKK, witch hunts, wacko in waco, jim jones mass suicide, and this is a short list. I am no longer religious myself (it was a religion imposed on me by my parents), but I have no problem with other people being religious. I would just caution that there are extremes, and religion is an easy one to fall into an extreme. You are literally discussing something that is "out of this world" and can not have any proof. The rewards are infinite (eternal life, glory without end, etc), which makes them more desirable to attain and justifies more extremes to earn. They also self-exclude and discriminate other people (your religion is right, everyone else is wrong or evil). The stakes that religion creates are simply so high, that it is easy to fall into the obsessive and extreme category, more so than worrying about an obsession over wealth or fitness.
aftergibson 6y ago
Conflating and oversimplify yet wholeheartedly highfalutin. Must be DFW.
simplerman 6y ago
I know religious folks who are the most miserable people ever. Because they get jealous when someone else worship more than them. They will criticize and belittle everyone they can. And I know atheists who are way more chill than so called hippie/spiritual/religious folks claim to be. Just because one is atheist doesn't mean they will be greedy capitalist or sex-addict or something else.
MisterBastahrd 6y ago
Here's what's actually true and not at all weird: religious people from evangelical religions draw parallels to non-religious people by pretending that every human is born with the need to venerate something. It's how they rationalize their evangelism. They have to, because admitting that other people do not share these imperfections is akin to admitting that some people do not need what they have to share. The fun thing about lying is that if you wrap it up in enough gift wrapping, people will tire out and accept it as truth rather than spending the time to uncover the lie.
nfw2 6y ago
Make me think of the stephen colbert christmas special https://vimeo.com/57953108 https://vimeo.com/57953108 " Then you got your nothing. Some folks believe in nothing. But if you believe in nothing, then what's to keep the nothing from coming for you? ... Call me silly Call me sappy Call me many things the first of which is happy You doubt, but you're sad. I don't, but I'm glad. I guess we're even. At least that's what I believe in And there are much worse things - Written by Adam Schlesinger (RIP)
lazysheepherd 6y ago
It is sad that so many people do not understand WHY religion is worse over other things mentioned here. These things are SHARED among many things, along with religion; - we humans tend to form social hierarchies - we all want to be belong - we want to be the hero of our story - life is hard, and death is terrifying, so we need lullabies - some rules/codes required wherever there are more than 1 person alive. Be it religious, moral or written/legal. - we all need some ideal to work towards This however, is SPECIAL to religion; Religion makes it a habit in believers to believe without evidence, forbits questioning, and delays answers to "afterlife". Hence takes away the power of understanding and reasoning. It installs a backdoor to people's minds so to speak. From which all the other bullshit are welcome to come in and also take a seat in their mind. Oh wait, there was this video that was explains these more elegantly than I can. Okay I've found it: https://twitter.com/billmaher/status/1357915846731997185 https://twitter.com/billmaher/status/1357915846731997185
- mensetmanusman 6y ago
  “ Religion makes it a habit in believers to believe without evidence, forbits questioning, and delays answers to "afterlife". Hence takes away the power of understanding and reasoning.” I haven’t found this to be true, but it is definitely possible in fundamentalist circles. I have found atheists who run from the question and don’t want to engage with ‘is there meaning, or is there no meaning?’
goldcd 6y ago
To cut to the chase "bullshit" I am an atheist. I am without god. I respect no external judgement upon me. Am I pure? Have I fallen victim to the seduction of mammon and the innumerable trinkets of existence - of course I have, and accept I will until the day I die. Do I worship myself and take excessive pride in my self-stated virtues - clearly I do, as you can see if you've read this far. But outside of my petty rhetoric, I know I came from nothing and at the end of my life-span I will return from whence I came. I find this comforting. There's no game to win, no test to pass, no heaven to enter - just a feeling of solidarity with those I share my temporal-blip-in-the-light with.
Gustomaximus 6y ago
If this were true wouldn't the religious be more "different" as in less likely to desire money or beauty etc. Yet I see no difference there.
mbrodersen 6y ago
Nope. I for one don’t worship anything. Everything is flawed and imperfect. But there is still love, happiness, beauty in this world. Right next to hate, despair and ugliness.
pixelmonkey 6y ago
I imagine that many people might read this quote (out of context) from his speech "This is Water" and in this thread discussing US church membership, and think, "This seems like DFW is defending religion." But, I think this is far from the case. I think this was DFW indicting modern secular consumer society as no better than religion in its vapidity. "Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship." This is the modern consumer choice, boiled down. The point of the speech is not to convince you that worshiping religion might be a better idea than worshiping money, things, power, or vanity. Instead, the point of the speech is to convince you that a human's "default setting" (another phrase he uses in the speech) is to worship something. And, often, that worship of something simply happens to adults, as they are going through the motions of the modern drudgery of everyday life. Thus to move beyond worship requires a level of education (and introspection) not typically accessed by everyday adults -- yet, it's still available to all, should they try hard enough to pursue it and to see it (that is: the water surrounding the fish who swim in it). This being a college commencement speech, DFW encourages the young graduates to use their education, and the introspection it allows, to rise above the various human psychological biases (especially self-centered behaviors and attitudes) that might make their lives feel meaningless and miserable in the moment (or in retrospect).
ragazzina 6y ago
>And when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally grieve you. What does he actually say instead of grieve? I have never been able to recognize the word. Plant? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI after 18:40.

nyghtly 6y ago

Here's the full speech for anyone who took an interest in this excerpt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI In my opinion, it's one of the best graduation speeches of all time.

sharkweek 6y ago
I have absolutely tried to hard wire the "choose how to think" into my brain. It is never easy. His example of the swerving SUV racing through traffic maybe just possibly driving that way because of a personal emergency stuck with me. I don't have to assume the worst of people who are acting in a way I don't agree with, and to consider this anytime I'm getting worked up over something can be quite helpful.
hexane360 6y ago
I much prefer Stephen Colbert's Northwestern commencement speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6tiaooiIo0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6tiaooiIo0 And a transcript: https://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2011/06/colbert-speech-text.html https://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2011/06/colb... > But if we should serve others, and together serve some common goal or idea - for any one you, what is that idea? And who are those people? > In my experience, you will truly serve only what you love, because, as the prophet says, service is love made visible. > If you love friends, you will serve your friends. > If you love community, you will serve your community. > If you love money, you will serve your money. > And if you love only yourself, you will serve only yourself. And you will have only yourself. So no more winning. Instead, try to love others and serve others, and hopefully find those who love and serve you in return.
- jimbokun 6y ago
  Interesting, there's a similar theme there, except with "love" instead of "worship".

lordylord 6y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MzyBv4yOPU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MzyBv4yOPU

jandrese 6y ago

I find the idea that faith can't eat you alive to be strange given that we have so many examples of that happening in real life. Faith is no different than money, power, allure, etc... in that regard. That's one reason people turn to atheism in the first place, to avoid getting gobbled up by religion.

marcosdumay 6y ago
Personally, I've seen churches eat way more people alive than greed or any other power allure. Beauty consumes people at the beginning of life, but most get away from it at the start of adult age. The only other things that come close are political ideologies and personality cults.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  I have minor criminal cousin named Jake, Jake doesn't claim to be anything else, unlike most Christians I've known who feel morally superior yet hold some of the least humanitarian ideas I've ever known. At least cousin Jake doesn't lie to himself about what he is.
petre 6y ago
I really don't understand why some people have to turn to atheism when not participating in organised religion is quite easy enough. This is what the article implies, church membership as opposed to faith. Why even bother to deny something that others believe without proof and needlessly argue about it? Maybe it makes them happy, more secure. Vocal atheists usually annoy me more than christian evanghelists, mostly because of the negative message.
- methodin 6y ago
  Because the U.S. still has not even come close to mastering the separation of church and state which means depending on where you live it will confront you frequently whether you like or not. Burying your head in the sand does nothing if you believe the premise of that separation is virtuous. I am not atheist myself but I have yet to see anyone I know be vocal about their atheism, yet I know many that are vocal about their religious views. I am curious where you see vocal atheists enough that they annoy you?

nimbius 6y ago

forgive me if im not moved by the edict of an alcoholic misogynist trying to assuage his own fears of moral impropriety and existential castaway after failing twice to join the Catholic church. Wallace enrobes the exhausted and derisive narrative of evangelicals confronted with an alternative to the almighty they themselves find personally intolerable in an almost comically dismissive tone. At least Thomas Aquinas had the decency to avoid Reducto ad Absurdum when he published his metaphysical treatise. Had we only outlawed the semiconductor im sure Gallup would enjoy a more sterling report of gods children, however i myself may be amiss. Christian Evangelism on the whole has seen a marked decline since its apex during the second Bush administration.

rmah 6y ago

In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.

elmomle 6y ago
It's pretty clear that that "worship" here refers to where we practice focusing our heart's yearnings, not to a set of religious rites. Synonyms of this meaning of "worship" include "revere" and "venerate".
- tmpz22 6y ago
  The crux of organized religion is being so vague that an individual can pick whatever parts of it fits into their own self-image. Thats what OP is tapping into in their quote. The Bible is re-written every 100 years to accommodate this.
  - cobri 6y ago
    >>"The Bible is re-written every 100 years to accommodate this." This is provably false. "It cannot be too strongly asserted that in substance the text of the Bible is certain: Especially is this the case with the New Testament, of early translations from it, and of quotations from it in the oldest writers of the Church, is so large that it is practically certain that the true reading of every doubtful passage is preserved in some one or other of these ancient authorities. This can be said of no other ancient book in the world."[1] As an example, the New Testament is 25x more accurately copied across manuscripts than the Iliad [2]. "The variant readings about which any doubt remains among textual critics of the New Testament affect no material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice."[3] [1] Kenyon, "Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts", p. 23 [2] Bruce M. Metzger, "Chapters in the History of New Testament Textual Criticism", cited by Geisler and Nix, "A General Introduction to the Bible", pp. 366f [3] F.F. Bruce, "The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?" p. 15

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[deleted]

alfiedotwtf 6y ago

> is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive I’ve seen plenty of people who have dedicated themselves to religion, made it completely consuming (ie go to church every day, God is the only thing they talk about, and the Bible is their only frame of reference), and they are unhappy because Religion itself has eaten them alive. How wrong Wallace was.

booleandilemma 6y ago

I could never take this guy seriously. I mean, he killed himself. Why should we listen to what he has to say?

throwaway823882 6y ago
Aaron Swartz
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
RankingMember 6y ago
Do you also not take Alan Turing's works seriously?
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  This doesn't make sense. You can't argue with Turing's math and algorithmic discoveries/creations (unless you can prove them wrong) but you certainly can some of his flawed philosophies. QED False equivocation.
- borepop 6y ago
  Turing's work has some independent value, it's not just a mess of philosophical/moral opinions like Wallace is offering up in this speech. If nothing else, Wallace's suicide illustrates to me what a gulf there is between "saying things that sound wise" and actually living wisely. One has very little to do with the other.
  - caslon 6y ago
    A suicide doesn't mean your life wasn't lived wisely. He was suffering from a clinically-diagnosed depressive disorder, was told to stop taking antidepressants by his own doctor, and was recommended to try electric shock as an alternative. His suicide was less "stupid man is sad" than "Wow, look! The medical industry isn't even trying to fix depression."

grae_QED 6y ago

I think Wallace is right in a sense. But I think 'worship' is the wrong word and if we're interpreting this literally then no, there is such thing as atheism. I get the sense people too often take this quote out of context to suggest atheism is some form of religion. Wallace was a master of the metaphor. I don't believe that he meant this literally. I think he could have used the word 'nihilist' instead and gotten the point across but I understand why he didn't.

abootstrapper 6y ago

I guess this makes sense if you define “atheism” as “not obsessing over something” and “worship” as a synonym for “unhealthy obsession.” I take issue with those definitions, and also with the premise that an adult must have an unhealthy obsession over something. What if I told you, I don’t believe in god, nor obsess over money or beauty. Oh, I guess I “worship” all things in moderation and healthy relationships.

ggggtez 6y ago

Spoken like someone with white privilege.

CanceledAccount 6y ago
What does race have to do with this?
- OOPMan 6y ago
  Tarring

stjohnswarts 6y ago

This is just some philosophical mental masturbation and many others have done it better. To say everyone worships something is to conflate worship with desire, ambition, and god knows how many other emotions. It's all kind of silly and just plain oversimplification.

igorkraw 6y ago

I prefer Camus personally. The act of rebellion against ...well everything, but in this case against things to worship, against stories that try to hide the absurdity of the universe seems to me a narrative much less likely to be led astray in harmful ways, since it gives you no power or secret insight, only personal despair and personal happiness. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/camus/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/camus/ https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Camus https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Camus "I don't know whether this world has a meaning that transcends it. But I know that I cannot know that meaning and that it is impossible for me just now to know it. What can a meaning outside my condition mean to me? I can understand only in human terms. What I touch, what resists me — that I understand. And these two certainties — my appetite for the absolute and for unity and the impossibility of reducing this world to a rational and reasonable principle — I also know that I cannot reconcile them. What other truth can I admit without lying, without bringing in a hope I lack and which means nothing within the limits of my conditions?"

nickthemagicman 6y ago
I love Camus as well. His idea of absurdism really struck a chord with me. We're on this ride in life where we just keep passing through absurd situations. It's a really comical extension to an existentialism. "Should I kill myself or have a cup of coffee?"

jacurtis 6y ago

> ...pretty much anything else you worship [other than religion] will eat you alive. If you worship money and things... then you will never have enough, never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly. And when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally grieve you. This is implying that worshiping religion/god/spirituality is exempt from extreme obsession. But I have to contest that religion can create far more extreme of obsessions than other forms of "worship" that Wallace references such as beauty, money, etc.. I grew up religious (in a high-demand religion) and saw that the religion created extremists among most of our church members. While an obsessive "worship" of losing weight can lead to anorexia, we see a good thing become bad. Being interesting in beauty isn't bad by itself, but an obsessive/extreme version can lead to depression and many other things. Religion is no exception (even though Wallace seems to exclude it). An obsession over religion leads people to over analyze their life in the search of being perfect. It forces them to make unnecessary sacrifices for a reward that they will never actually attain. I've seen it tear apart families as bad as alcohol abuse or domestic violence can. There is a very dark, evil side to religion. The religion I was involved with put so much pressure on people to live life a certain way, to be perfect, that it was unattainable. The religion's goal is to enforce compliance and promote unity through shared suffering. But it has negative effects too. I've lost many close friends (including one roommate) who committed suicide from church pressures. Prescription drug abuse is particularly bad within the community that I grew up in, I personally know several people who have life-long addictions to prescription opioids that started from church pressures. I have seen domestic violence and child sexual abuse, all justified (and protected and buried) under religious arguments. My personal experience with religion shows consequences that far exceed those of other obsessions such as wealth, beauty, fitness, drugs, and so on. So I would be very careful about giving religion a "pass". Are all religions bad? Probably not. I know plenty of people who have healthy relationships with religion. But the bad stuff is definitely there too, and it is FAR from rare. And I am only talking about relatively tame religions too. We can go even more extreme and start discussing the effects that religion have had on promoting unspeakable acts such as the holocaust, the crusades, the jihads, 9/11 attacks, the inquisition, Boston marathon bombs, numerous mass shootings, Incan & Mayan sacrifices, the KKK, witch hunts, wacko in waco, jim jones mass suicide, and this is a short list. I am no longer religious myself (it was a religion imposed on me by my parents), but I have no problem with other people being religious. I would just caution that there are extremes, and religion is an easy one to fall into an extreme. You are literally discussing something that is "out of this world" and can not have any proof. The rewards are infinite (eternal life, glory without end, etc), which makes them more desirable to attain and justifies more extremes to earn. They also self-exclude and discriminate other people (your religion is right, everyone else is wrong or evil). The stakes that religion creates are simply so high, that it is easy to fall into the obsessive and extreme category, more so than worrying about an obsession over wealth or fitness.

aftergibson 6y ago

Conflating and oversimplify yet wholeheartedly highfalutin. Must be DFW.

simplerman 6y ago

I know religious folks who are the most miserable people ever. Because they get jealous when someone else worship more than them. They will criticize and belittle everyone they can. And I know atheists who are way more chill than so called hippie/spiritual/religious folks claim to be. Just because one is atheist doesn't mean they will be greedy capitalist or sex-addict or something else.

MisterBastahrd 6y ago

Here's what's actually true and not at all weird: religious people from evangelical religions draw parallels to non-religious people by pretending that every human is born with the need to venerate something. It's how they rationalize their evangelism. They have to, because admitting that other people do not share these imperfections is akin to admitting that some people do not need what they have to share. The fun thing about lying is that if you wrap it up in enough gift wrapping, people will tire out and accept it as truth rather than spending the time to uncover the lie.

nfw2 6y ago

Make me think of the stephen colbert christmas special https://vimeo.com/57953108 https://vimeo.com/57953108 " Then you got your nothing. Some folks believe in nothing. But if you believe in nothing, then what's to keep the nothing from coming for you? ... Call me silly Call me sappy Call me many things the first of which is happy You doubt, but you're sad. I don't, but I'm glad. I guess we're even. At least that's what I believe in And there are much worse things - Written by Adam Schlesinger (RIP)

lazysheepherd 6y ago

It is sad that so many people do not understand WHY religion is worse over other things mentioned here. These things are SHARED among many things, along with religion; - we humans tend to form social hierarchies - we all want to be belong - we want to be the hero of our story - life is hard, and death is terrifying, so we need lullabies - some rules/codes required wherever there are more than 1 person alive. Be it religious, moral or written/legal. - we all need some ideal to work towards This however, is SPECIAL to religion; Religion makes it a habit in believers to believe without evidence, forbits questioning, and delays answers to "afterlife". Hence takes away the power of understanding and reasoning. It installs a backdoor to people's minds so to speak. From which all the other bullshit are welcome to come in and also take a seat in their mind. Oh wait, there was this video that was explains these more elegantly than I can. Okay I've found it: https://twitter.com/billmaher/status/1357915846731997185 https://twitter.com/billmaher/status/1357915846731997185

mensetmanusman 6y ago
“ Religion makes it a habit in believers to believe without evidence, forbits questioning, and delays answers to "afterlife". Hence takes away the power of understanding and reasoning.” I haven’t found this to be true, but it is definitely possible in fundamentalist circles. I have found atheists who run from the question and don’t want to engage with ‘is there meaning, or is there no meaning?’

goldcd 6y ago

To cut to the chase "bullshit" I am an atheist. I am without god. I respect no external judgement upon me. Am I pure? Have I fallen victim to the seduction of mammon and the innumerable trinkets of existence - of course I have, and accept I will until the day I die. Do I worship myself and take excessive pride in my self-stated virtues - clearly I do, as you can see if you've read this far. But outside of my petty rhetoric, I know I came from nothing and at the end of my life-span I will return from whence I came. I find this comforting. There's no game to win, no test to pass, no heaven to enter - just a feeling of solidarity with those I share my temporal-blip-in-the-light with.

Gustomaximus 6y ago

If this were true wouldn't the religious be more "different" as in less likely to desire money or beauty etc. Yet I see no difference there.

mbrodersen 6y ago

Nope. I for one don’t worship anything. Everything is flawed and imperfect. But there is still love, happiness, beauty in this world. Right next to hate, despair and ugliness.

pixelmonkey 6y ago

I imagine that many people might read this quote (out of context) from his speech "This is Water" and in this thread discussing US church membership, and think, "This seems like DFW is defending religion." But, I think this is far from the case. I think this was DFW indicting modern secular consumer society as no better than religion in its vapidity. "Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship." This is the modern consumer choice, boiled down. The point of the speech is not to convince you that worshiping religion might be a better idea than worshiping money, things, power, or vanity. Instead, the point of the speech is to convince you that a human's "default setting" (another phrase he uses in the speech) is to worship something. And, often, that worship of something simply happens to adults, as they are going through the motions of the modern drudgery of everyday life. Thus to move beyond worship requires a level of education (and introspection) not typically accessed by everyday adults -- yet, it's still available to all, should they try hard enough to pursue it and to see it (that is: the water surrounding the fish who swim in it). This being a college commencement speech, DFW encourages the young graduates to use their education, and the introspection it allows, to rise above the various human psychological biases (especially self-centered behaviors and attitudes) that might make their lives feel meaningless and miserable in the moment (or in retrospect).

ragazzina 6y ago

>And when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally grieve you. What does he actually say instead of grieve? I have never been able to recognize the word. Plant? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI after 18:40.