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Amazon driver quits over AI-powered safety cameras in delivery vehicles

161 points by Black101 6y ago

beckman466 6y ago
> "Insider reported in February that Amazon was equipping all delivery vehicles with an AI camera system called Driveri, which is manufactured by a company called Netradyne. > The cameras are always on and scan drivers' body language and the speed of the vehicle, detect if a driver is wearing a seatbelt, and even measure drowsiness. > The system then uses "automated verbal alerts" to tell drivers if a violation has been detected." > [...] > Amazon told Insider in February driver footage was not automatically available to Amazon and that the "live feed" was triggered only after the detection of a safety or policy violation. Amazon did not immediately respond to a request for comment on this story. Wow this sounds like a dystopian science fiction movie. It's scary to notice that Amazon PR team gets away with just saying "we promise it's not automatically available, and that we don't abuse it by surveilling 24/7". All this just reminds me of the creation and abuse of Uber's god mode, Snowden's revelations of NSA's secret dragnet surveillance, etc. Things like this are only appropriate to use when the code for the system is 100% open source. It's anti-democratic when a system of rules that can instantly upload a live feed, which is "triggered after the detection of a safety or policy violation", is not visible to a participant in the system. It's tyrannical and terrifying. Systems like this just end up gaslighting workers and invasively monitoring them. It uploads their private information (it monitors their 'body language' - whatever that means) to a black-box vault, to be used for further exploitation by capital (and fed into the capitalist, racist and sexist Silicon Valley AI monster).
- wojciii 6y ago
  "Moral Statute Machine: Your repeated violation of the Verbal Morality Statute has caused me to notify the San Angeles Police Department. Please remain where you are for your reprimand."
  - codetrotter 6y ago
    Demolition Man (1993), for anyone wondering :) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106697/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106697/
- brtkdotse 6y ago
  > detect if a driver is wearing a seatbelt, and even measure drowsiness. These actually sound like good things, but they’re also implementable without a camera
  - Closi 6y ago
    These also sound like the excuses you come up with to install cameras in every car when you can't say the real reason because of bad PR. This approach works really well, because you can just accuse people who are against your proposals as being 'against driver safety'. It's similar to every other move in increasing surveillance in that you can come up with a 'PR-friendly' reason for the surveillance that people find tough to argue against to placate the masses. "Oh, you are wondering why we are spying on everyone... uhh... it's to protect the children! It's to protect the children! And terrorists! We need to stop the terorrists! And the people who are against these proposals? Well they must be people who are pedophile-enablers and terrorist sympathisers!"
    - mewpmewp2 6y ago
      What's the real reason to install those cameras in the car?
      - EarlKing 6y ago
        Shrinkage. They're trying to point the finger at who's losing their packages. If some sorter scans a package and their tracking system says its in a certain tote number they're going to assume its there even when, in point of fact, it's not. So when a driver reports a package missing... they want to know he didn't just shove it in his bag. Note that this is readily solvable by having DSP and Amazon Logistics drivers do what Amazon Flex drivers already do: scan every single package individually. If a package comes up missing then flag an Amazon rep to inspect the bag its supposed to be in, verify its missing, snap a quick pic of the tracking#, and then they can take it off your route while they try to find it (and ultimately wind up marking it missing later). That, of course, would mean drivers take more time loading... so of course they'll never do that. They'll just install cameras.
- wdb 6y ago
  I don't know how it is in the US but I always get the feeling the Amazon driver uses his own van or car to deliver the parcels. Wouldn't even think about having something like this installed in my own car. I don't agree with such a system but if you use Amazon's van/car there is less opportunity to be against it.
  - intricatedetail 6y ago
    In the UK that would tip the driver over IR35 and they could have a case for employment tribunal, but in about 2 weeks changes to that are coming, and it will be legal for Amazon to do it while not being liable for employment laws.
  - Closi 6y ago
    In the UK at least there is a mix of the following: * Independent couriers (via a delivery app similar to Uber). * Small business owners that will have a fleet of c10 vans / drivers that contract for Amazon (via a specific Amazon programme to start up your own small van-delivery business for delivering Amazon parcels). * Amazon directly-employed van drivers. I think independent couriers are charged a cost per parcel delivered anyway, so it doesn't make sense to monitor those any more than you need to. This potentially could then apply to points 2 & 3 above depending on how far Amazon wants to go with it.
  - navbaker 6y ago
    I actually didn’t give that any thought until your comment, but now that I think about it, I haven’t seen a single Amazon package being delivered to our section of neighborhood (east coast US) in a privately owned vehicle for maybe a year or more. It used to be fairly common, but I believe I’ve seen only grey-blue Amazon vans for quite some time now.
- krapp 6y ago
  > Right now it's just a way to gaslight workers and invasively monitor them and upload their information to a black-box vault, for further exploitation by capital (to feed into the racist AI monster). Just wait until they deploy something like this for the warehouse workers and they start getting flagged every time they scratch their nose.
- flik 6y ago
  "Netradyne provides cutting-edge technologies in AI, ML and Edge Computing to help reduce accidents by creating a new safe driving standard for commercial vehicles. Our industry solutions reduce driving incidents and protect against false claims" https://www.netradyne.com/ https://www.netradyne.com/
  - EarlKing 6y ago
    > "cutting-edge technologies in AI, ML and Edge Computing" Five bucks says their buzzword-compliant Sauron-o-scope is nothing more than a thin layer over some student's OpenCV project.
- developer92 6y ago
  I'm not sure open sourcing entirely solves the problem, that doesn't show how the company has the software configured. I'd suggest that you need rigorous and continuous independent auditing with results published. But where do you get that these days?
andyjohnson0 6y ago
I do wonder what kind of company culture produces decisions like this. Multiple high-level people will have signed-off on this. They'll have sat in meetings reading their six page documents and nodding at eachother. I wonder if, at any point, anyone said no - this is excessive? Or that this is dehumanising? Or is it that when you get past a certain level at Amazon are you already so invested in their worldview that the way that drivers and warehouse workers are treated just seems normal? Or is there some other reason for this? I find the prospect of a world with more Bezos's and more Amazons and their dehumanising world-view genuinely frightening.
- itsoktocry 6y ago
  Do any of these "tech" companies that employ blue-collar workers treat them well? We have major class issues.
- taurath 6y ago
  The reason for this is they think of people like they think about a server farm - and not just employees but customers too.
  - goatinaboat 6y ago
    The reason for this is they think of people like they think about a server farm - and not just employees but customers too This is literally true, managers refer to workers as "resources". A resource is something that you use up and then discard. At least they are in their own way being honest about it.
    - notaslave 6y ago
      Referring to me as a "resource" immediately destroys any good will I have for that person. I can no longer see them as a human from that point on wards. I refer to managers as belonging to one or a mix of the "slave trader", "parasitic" or "demonic" classes. In my 10+ years in this profession, I am yet to come across a "manager" who doesn't fall under this categorization.
    - 6y ago
mathieubordere 6y ago
Do the drivers have to work extremely long shifts or do they have to work multiple jobs so that fatigue becomes an issue? In that case the camera system is probably not the right solution ...
- tomhoward 6y ago
  Driver fatigue is an issue for freight companies of all sizes, everywhere, and use of amphetamines to stay awake has been a frequent practice among many drivers for a long time. This is a freight industry issue, not an Amazon issue.
  - mathieubordere 6y ago
    They sure have the size and the means to make an impact though.
    - tomhoward 6y ago
      Most places have statutory or industry-standard requirements on shift length limits and minimum rest periods for driving or anything else that carries fatigue-related safety risks. Is there any evidence that Amazon puts pressure on drivers to break these limits? I haven't heard of this being the case. But neither Amazon nor any other freight/delivery company can control its drivers' entire lives. No matter how much it pays, it can't stop some workers working multiple jobs - due to having severe debts or other personal motivations to work more than they should.
      - EarlKing 6y ago
        Yes and no. Being tired on-shift is generally only an issue for drivers with 10-hour shifts and a long commute. A lot of DSPs only service 8-hour routes partly for this reason (the other reason being, obviously, lack of desire to pay overtime). Amazon Logistics used to look the other way when their drivers ran over the alloted time for their route because on-time delivery was deemed the more important variable for them. At some point I guess someone looked at how much they were spending on overtime and freaked out because that practice ended real quick. I could see someone being tired if they were covering extra shifts, though, which may be a problem in some DSPs that have more routes than drivers. This happens when too many people call off and/or the DSP doesn't reserve enough drivers in the schedule that day to cover call-offs. On a long enough timeline that will definitely lead to exhaustion in drivers. That said, that problem isn't solved by AI. That problem is solved by placing realistic weekly limits on how much drivers can work and penalizing DSPs that fail to budget enough drivers for call-offs and/or who fail to terminate drivers that habitually fail to show. This porkoscope is unnecessary.
Clewza313 6y ago
Obligatory dystopian scifi on this theme: https://marshallbrain.com/manna1 https://marshallbrain.com/manna1
- EarlKing 6y ago
  Between this latest tripe and Mentor this is more or less the daily reality for amazon drivers. What's worse is the complete lack of any sort of responsibility on the part of eDriving. Even when you can prove that there is clearly a device compatibility issue that's causing them to erroneously flag your device for 'phone distraction' they refuse to acknowledge any culpability. Clearly it must be user error. Eventually this is going to start costing them jobs and money... and even then they'll just find a way to shift blame. At this point I don't want to buy anything from them anymore. It's just not worth supporting this kind of institutional myopia.
e-clinton 6y ago
Many blue collar workers are recorded all day long. In fact, it’d be tough finding a brick-and-mortar store that doesn’t have recording devices all over. Why is this news? Because it’s in a truck? Because it’s using AI?
- koolba 6y ago
  Having a recording to examine when investigating an incident is different than an AI analyzes all video feeds in real time. The latter is more like each camera having a security team watching it 24/7. That may be common in some high risk environments (e.g. gambling or other large cash situations) but it’s certainly not the norm in vanilla retail. Truck drivers have historically been independent, in both corporate structure and mindedness, so I can see this being particularly off putting.
  - Kye 6y ago
    Even the screens in 1984 couldn't be monitored all the time. Somehow reality keeps becoming worse than fiction.
    - dudul 6y ago
      1984 is already one of the most terrifying books I've read, I can't imagine what it would have been if Orwell had foreseen the emergence of AI/ML technologies.
      - throwaway316943 6y ago
        We need a follow up book, 2084. Maybe the vid screens are permanently strapped to your face and actively monitor you and act as an intermediary between you and your environment in order to prevent any anti party information from getting in.
        koolba 6y ago
        2048 would be a better title.
agsamek 6y ago
What is the difference between this and having cctv in a factory building? Companies impose more work control over more people. If a company makes good use of it then it becomes a regular practice. If not then employees select another employer. We are lucky that we work in a creative field, most occupancies require just good, repetitive work. There should be a legal framework to destroy archive recordings, liability for misusing them, because there is a room for real abuse. Not in the work control.
- beckman466 6y ago
  [deleted]
  - agsamek 6y ago
    Agree. But this is a different story...
- mft_ 6y ago
  Because Amazon + cameras + AI + sensationalism = clicks? To me, the idea of an algorithm which detects when a driver is at increased risk (e.g. drowsy, or not wearing a seatbelt, or maybe using a phone inappropriately) seems like a fundamentally good move. And makes basic sense in any vehicle still piloted by a human. The issue is that (of course) people being watched by a camera opens the potential of misuse, and so (as ever) people jump to worse-case scenarios and start using emotionally-loaded words like ‘dystopian’. Of course, we don’t know for sure if it will be misused, and/or dystopian, until it’s actually implemented and we have observed results... but people do like to get upset and sensationalise just about anything that’s a new idea, these days.
  - EarlKing 6y ago
    So you're going to be perfectly OK with people monitoring your vehicle 24/7 for how much you actually use the public roads, right? Because that won't be abused either. And that, by the way, is a perennial suggestion that got floated again recently. How about setting aside whether this is useful and consider that maybe it's blatantly anti-labor? They can already monitor who's wearing a seatbelt or not with vehicle telemetry. Adding this on top of their existing monitoring apparatus is sociopathic.
tomhoward 6y ago
Maybe it's just that I live in Australia, a country that has very strict road safety laws and practices, which are generally supported by the community, given that our road fatality figures are now very low (in 2019 we had just under 1200 road deaths in a nation of 25.3M people - a low rate by world standards, particularly given how much we drive here). But I just don't see the cause for outrage over this - as long as the system really is focused on the safety of drivers and other road users. Sure, over-work is an issue for Amazon, but it's an issue for all freight/delivery/transport companies, particularly when the company is engaging private contractors, as they can't control how long a driver works, how fatigued they are, and how much they adhere to other safety practices like seatbelts. I'm all for criticising Amazon and other companies when they really do go wrong and treat workers poorly, but what is the real evidence that this is such a case? How do we know this is anything other than a bona fide effort to ensure drivers are operating safely for the benefit of themselves and other road users? The reference to AI in the article makes it sound dystopian, but isn't this potentially better, if it just means that computation is used to detect any issues rather than having humans watching their fellow workers?
- ptero 6y ago
  I think the fear and the expectation (based on extensive previous experience) is that this technology, regardless of it's stated purpose, will be used to eke out a few extra seconds of efficiency from human drivers. Which will likely lead to stress and extra fatigue. In my book, automating boring and repetitive tasks is good even if it leads to some job losses. Turning humans into robots by optimizing for every bit of near-term efficiency is not. My 2c.
  - thepete2 6y ago
    Yes. Notice that if the goal was really "safety" (as stated), the company does not need a "live feed" ever, a warning to the driver is enough. After all his safety is in his own best interest.
    - erikerikson 6y ago
ashaikh 6y ago
I don’t think the systems are new or unique. We test drive a Kia last weekend and it was a feature they called “Driver Attention Warning.” I’ve seen this in other brands and cars as well. It looks like these systems use a variety of factors, steering patterns, frequency of vehicle lane assist being activated, cameras evaluating driver, biometrics (heart rate, body temperature etc.), and face monitoring/eye tracking (to see if the driver is focused on the road). We own a Volvo and have received surveys asking about our comfort level with these features, so I’m assuming this will be commonplace soon.
- Kye 6y ago
  A monitoring system that helps you drive safer is different from a monitoring system that lets your employer judge your driving in real time.
  - PaulRobinson 6y ago
    If the vehicle had these features built in by the manufacturer, and it was employer policy that the driver does not disable those features, would you still consider that to be a case of employers "judging" driving behaviour in real time? Or would it perhaps be a perfectly reasonable policy? This is a monitoring system that helps drivers drive safer. Why are you assuming that it's anything else? You're assuming "judgement" in a way that isn't related to driver safety that is not supported by anything in the article or the features themselves.
    - Kye 6y ago
      I think we're coming at this from fundamentally different worldviews. Mine tells me employers always turn new technology against labor. I don't assume it will happen, I look to history and make an informed prediction.
    - pirocks 6y ago
      My understanding is that this is a system which is recording the driver for review by human management at a later date. Which is very different from anything that would come pre-installed in a vehicle.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
Well, this system will at least make it harder for Amazon to deny knowing their drivers are peeing in bottles and pooping in bags. I also can't blame the drivers for not wanting those acts immortalized.
- FearlessNebula 6y ago
  A buddy of mine has an ostomy pouch and Amazon won't stop sending him job offers. Apparently they love employees who pee and or poop in bags...
  - EarlKing 6y ago
    If you'd ever seen the inside of an Amazon bag you'd know that's pretty much in the job description.
- bobajeff 6y ago
  That's the real reason for the outrage. This isn't about safety at all this is about protecting Amazon. The driver with face all the penalties if a accident occurs. The camera footage will only show what the drivers are doing and not what their dispatchers are doing.
- text70 6y ago
  It could be another opportunity for Amazon to diversify into paid public restrooms, that are free for drivers, but cost the public a few cents.
neonate 6y ago
Archive of original Thomson Reuters article here: https://archive.md/ws6T3 https://archive.md/ws6T3
eth0up 6y ago
My suggestion, especially to those who strongly advocate such surveillance, is that those who support or implement it should be under an even greater measure of surveillance. A live feed of their activities 24/7 is necessary due to their participation and effecting in a tentative, unprecedented surveillance state where the watched would be extremely foolish not to keep an unblinking eye on the watchers, who bear the brunt of responsibility. It should not stop there either; any form of personal information not legally protected should be made readily and easily available. That which is protected, should be lobbied to be public.
- Santosh83 6y ago
  This is all fine, but those who ultimately own wealth and power will pull all the strings. At crucial moments the cameras watching the watchers will malfunction.
  - alacombe 6y ago
    Those with wealth and power will never be on cctv camera, only their minions will be.
- erikerikson 6y ago
  Some of us would agree. There are currently legal barriers to doing this. For example, recording audio without consent is criminal in Washington state and the basis is well argued. There are many serious issues to such a monitoring system and shifts that would be necessary in society but some potentially amazing benefits. Imagine the end of "he said, she said". The reduction of incentives for running scams. The reduction in security related spending.
  - eth0up 6y ago
    >Imagine the end of.... A mere beginning to the end of flagrant double standards and the plebeian concession to live under them would be a dandy start. Since we're unwaveringly barreling toward the panopticon anyway, why not do so properly and see along the way who the true believers are, those willing to make genuine examples of themselves. The world should know Jeff's shower thoughts - they'll probably be foisted on it soon enough and skull bracketed AI cameras with thought-monitoring ultrasound would do well to keep everyone informed in a timely fashion. Until we wangle that, we have smartlocks, which could integrate well into a sort of prebreakfast polygraph which scans our general intent before unleashing us into the outside world where we might stretch the truth, make mischief or think in an unutilitarianly beneficial way. A morning multiple choice questionnaire could substitute during outages or glitches. We'd carry the completed form as we do driver licences. Real ID, Real Intent, auditable by any citizen on demand.
williesleg 6y ago
Meanwhile a lot of others still work. What's the story?
eplanit 6y ago
The drivers are necessary only until driverless vans are here (relatively soon). Drivers, being near the head of the line of people to be displaced, have little bargaining power.
- dylan604 6y ago
  So a driverless delivery vehichle arrives at the destination. Now what? How does the package get from the van to the destination? Some sort of Boston Dynamics robot jumps out with the package(s) to navigate curbs, walkways, steps/stairs/elevators? The actual driving of the delivery van is but a part of the delivery person's job functions.
  - anticristi 6y ago
    I assume you meant to be sarcastic, but I do like your vision!
taylorius 6y ago
"Safety" is a magic abracadabra word, that is used these days to justify anything and everything someone wants to do. I don't blame the guy for quitting - sounds sinister and oppressive.
- drdeadringer 6y ago
  Tangentially reminds me of thoughts and theories behind the TV show "The Prisoner" regarding society.
- rad_gruchalski 6y ago
  „Safety“ sits right next to „green“.
  - Black101 6y ago
    and terrorists, etc...
14 6y ago
Will the AI detect a driver sweating and suggest they have some water? Will AI detect that a driver needs to use the bathroom because it has be so many hours since the last bathroom stop? What other benefits could AI provide should they truly be looking to make the work safer and better?
kodah 6y ago
I think the outrage is warranted, but software engineers allowed this precedent many years ago. I can see the parallels between this and "security" software that is highly invasive. Software that installs itself in your certificate chain to decrypt all TLS communication, companies like Netskope that offer bridges with admin cloud credentials and check up on all changes you make to cloud documents, or the infinite array of software that captures every keystroke or file saved and filters it for patterns and reviews by a human. There's also software where a company can get a live capture of your desktop, though I've never discovered it in use. If you tell the average Jill/Joe about this, generally you'll see a reaction of shock, where if you tell an engineer about it they shrug it off. When you allow the surveillance state of the government to continue to expand you can expect the nanny behaviors of corporations to expand too.
drefanzor 6y ago
It would also probably invade their privacy in other ways, especially if they are not given enough time to use the restroom. It appears drivers have been defecating and urinating while on the move, in their delivery trucks. Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez even got into a Twitter feud with the verified Amazon News account over the ordeal, and posted a screenshot of an email complaining about "poop" coming back in returns; they were using the boxes or return envelopes to defecate in. ref: https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1375502593863073792?s=20 https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1375502593863073792?s=20 A solution would be to somehow implement bigger cabs with the ability to quickly "go" when you need. Another solution would be to give drivers a break when they need and ease up the pressure.
jrowley 6y ago
He totally sounds like an independent contractor, definitely has a lot of control over his work. Most definitely not an employee of Amazon or a shell company who’s only customer is Amazon.
imchillyb 6y ago
The word 'safety' is propaganda. These monitoring devices are installed to limit company liability, limit company losses, and limit driver 'free-time' which the company pays for. Using the word safety, is legitimizing Amazon's spin on this technology. Please do not spread that garbage. These devices are installed solely to increase company profits.
pc86 6y ago
They quote "for fear of retaliation" yet tell us his name is Vic, he was a driver in Denver, and he quit in the last month. I wonder how many people fit that description? Even if they changed his name or location, there are only so many Vics or Denver-based drivers.
test8899 6y ago
If you can't see that Amazon's motives in this do not stem from good aspects of human potential and nature, whether they themselves realise it or not, then you lack insight. - I've stopped ordering from Amazon. Even if it costs a bit more, it feels so good. It's the right thing to do. I refuse to work for them, and so should you. Shame on the weak, greedy, and fearful that do. - Government regulation seems to be the only way to prevent a perverse, grotesque future and present. - But standing in the way - Cursed human delusion, confusion, greed and fear. Cursed ideology. - It acts in all of us. Damned be this condition. May we all see the light.
- tracer4201 6y ago
  This comes off as overly dramatic fear mongering. We’ve moved on from big oil being the bogey man and source of our problems to Amazon and big tech. Amazon has a detection system to figure out if you are getting tired. Sounds great to me. If you’re driving a huge rig or even a larger van, you falling asleep at the wheel means risk to your self and others on the road. Not everything is bad and evil. This almost feels like an anti Amazon propaganda campaign to me. Why? Amazon isn’t the only one in the delivery business. Do their competitors have the technological capability to put this kind of feature in production? Probably not. CCTVs have been around for decades. If surveillance was an issue, it would have come up many decades ago.
rsj_hn 6y ago
There is such a steady stream of anti-Amazon news articles now that even a single driver quitting is enough to make national news. At least according to Anabelle Williams, who seems to be on a jihad: https://www.businessinsider.com/author/annabelle-williams?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/author/annabelle-williams?op...
consumer451 6y ago
Related AMA from the driver in question: https://reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/mfrbty/hi_im_vic_a_former_amazon_driver_who_was/ https://reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/mfrbty/hi_im_vic_a_former... Notable q & a: > Have you gotten in trouble via the camera? > I haven't personally, because I didn't really drive with them for long enough. However, some other drivers did and I was there while it happened. They are shown their camera feed (in front of other drivers), called out, yelled at, and told to fix whatever issues the camera's AI recognizes under threat of losing their jobs.

161 points by Black101 6y ago

> "Insider reported in February that Amazon was equipping all delivery vehicles with an AI camera system called Driveri, which is manufactured by a company called Netradyne. > The cameras are always on and scan drivers' body language and the speed of the vehicle, detect if a driver is wearing a seatbelt, and even measure drowsiness. > The system then uses "automated verbal alerts" to tell drivers if a violation has been detected." > [...] > Amazon told Insider in February driver footage was not automatically available to Amazon and that the "live feed" was triggered only after the detection of a safety or policy violation. Amazon did not immediately respond to a request for comment on this story. Wow this sounds like a dystopian science fiction movie. It's scary to notice that Amazon PR team gets away with just saying "we promise it's not automatically available, and that we don't abuse it by surveilling 24/7". All this just reminds me of the creation and abuse of Uber's god mode, Snowden's revelations of NSA's secret dragnet surveillance, etc. Things like this are only appropriate to use when the code for the system is 100% open source. It's anti-democratic when a system of rules that can instantly upload a live feed, which is "triggered after the detection of a safety or policy violation", is not visible to a participant in the system. It's tyrannical and terrifying. Systems like this just end up gaslighting workers and invasively monitoring them. It uploads their private information (it monitors their 'body language' - whatever that means) to a black-box vault, to be used for further exploitation by capital (and fed into the capitalist, racist and sexist Silicon Valley AI monster).

wojciii 6y ago
"Moral Statute Machine: Your repeated violation of the Verbal Morality Statute has caused me to notify the San Angeles Police Department. Please remain where you are for your reprimand."
- codetrotter 6y ago
  Demolition Man (1993), for anyone wondering :) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106697/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106697/
brtkdotse 6y ago
> detect if a driver is wearing a seatbelt, and even measure drowsiness. These actually sound like good things, but they’re also implementable without a camera
- Closi 6y ago
  These also sound like the excuses you come up with to install cameras in every car when you can't say the real reason because of bad PR. This approach works really well, because you can just accuse people who are against your proposals as being 'against driver safety'. It's similar to every other move in increasing surveillance in that you can come up with a 'PR-friendly' reason for the surveillance that people find tough to argue against to placate the masses. "Oh, you are wondering why we are spying on everyone... uhh... it's to protect the children! It's to protect the children! And terrorists! We need to stop the terorrists! And the people who are against these proposals? Well they must be people who are pedophile-enablers and terrorist sympathisers!"
  - mewpmewp2 6y ago
    What's the real reason to install those cameras in the car?
    - EarlKing 6y ago
      Shrinkage. They're trying to point the finger at who's losing their packages. If some sorter scans a package and their tracking system says its in a certain tote number they're going to assume its there even when, in point of fact, it's not. So when a driver reports a package missing... they want to know he didn't just shove it in his bag. Note that this is readily solvable by having DSP and Amazon Logistics drivers do what Amazon Flex drivers already do: scan every single package individually. If a package comes up missing then flag an Amazon rep to inspect the bag its supposed to be in, verify its missing, snap a quick pic of the tracking#, and then they can take it off your route while they try to find it (and ultimately wind up marking it missing later). That, of course, would mean drivers take more time loading... so of course they'll never do that. They'll just install cameras.
wdb 6y ago
I don't know how it is in the US but I always get the feeling the Amazon driver uses his own van or car to deliver the parcels. Wouldn't even think about having something like this installed in my own car. I don't agree with such a system but if you use Amazon's van/car there is less opportunity to be against it.
- intricatedetail 6y ago
  In the UK that would tip the driver over IR35 and they could have a case for employment tribunal, but in about 2 weeks changes to that are coming, and it will be legal for Amazon to do it while not being liable for employment laws.
- Closi 6y ago
  In the UK at least there is a mix of the following: * Independent couriers (via a delivery app similar to Uber). * Small business owners that will have a fleet of c10 vans / drivers that contract for Amazon (via a specific Amazon programme to start up your own small van-delivery business for delivering Amazon parcels). * Amazon directly-employed van drivers. I think independent couriers are charged a cost per parcel delivered anyway, so it doesn't make sense to monitor those any more than you need to. This potentially could then apply to points 2 & 3 above depending on how far Amazon wants to go with it.
- navbaker 6y ago
  I actually didn’t give that any thought until your comment, but now that I think about it, I haven’t seen a single Amazon package being delivered to our section of neighborhood (east coast US) in a privately owned vehicle for maybe a year or more. It used to be fairly common, but I believe I’ve seen only grey-blue Amazon vans for quite some time now.
krapp 6y ago
> Right now it's just a way to gaslight workers and invasively monitor them and upload their information to a black-box vault, for further exploitation by capital (to feed into the racist AI monster). Just wait until they deploy something like this for the warehouse workers and they start getting flagged every time they scratch their nose.
flik 6y ago
"Netradyne provides cutting-edge technologies in AI, ML and Edge Computing to help reduce accidents by creating a new safe driving standard for commercial vehicles. Our industry solutions reduce driving incidents and protect against false claims" https://www.netradyne.com/ https://www.netradyne.com/
- EarlKing 6y ago
  > "cutting-edge technologies in AI, ML and Edge Computing" Five bucks says their buzzword-compliant Sauron-o-scope is nothing more than a thin layer over some student's OpenCV project.
developer92 6y ago
I'm not sure open sourcing entirely solves the problem, that doesn't show how the company has the software configured. I'd suggest that you need rigorous and continuous independent auditing with results published. But where do you get that these days?

andyjohnson0 6y ago

I do wonder what kind of company culture produces decisions like this. Multiple high-level people will have signed-off on this. They'll have sat in meetings reading their six page documents and nodding at eachother. I wonder if, at any point, anyone said no - this is excessive? Or that this is dehumanising? Or is it that when you get past a certain level at Amazon are you already so invested in their worldview that the way that drivers and warehouse workers are treated just seems normal? Or is there some other reason for this? I find the prospect of a world with more Bezos's and more Amazons and their dehumanising world-view genuinely frightening.

itsoktocry 6y ago
Do any of these "tech" companies that employ blue-collar workers treat them well? We have major class issues.
taurath 6y ago
The reason for this is they think of people like they think about a server farm - and not just employees but customers too.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  The reason for this is they think of people like they think about a server farm - and not just employees but customers too This is literally true, managers refer to workers as "resources". A resource is something that you use up and then discard. At least they are in their own way being honest about it.
  - notaslave 6y ago
    Referring to me as a "resource" immediately destroys any good will I have for that person. I can no longer see them as a human from that point on wards. I refer to managers as belonging to one or a mix of the "slave trader", "parasitic" or "demonic" classes. In my 10+ years in this profession, I am yet to come across a "manager" who doesn't fall under this categorization.
  - 6y ago

mathieubordere 6y ago

Do the drivers have to work extremely long shifts or do they have to work multiple jobs so that fatigue becomes an issue? In that case the camera system is probably not the right solution ...

tomhoward 6y ago
Driver fatigue is an issue for freight companies of all sizes, everywhere, and use of amphetamines to stay awake has been a frequent practice among many drivers for a long time. This is a freight industry issue, not an Amazon issue.
- mathieubordere 6y ago
  They sure have the size and the means to make an impact though.
  - tomhoward 6y ago
    Most places have statutory or industry-standard requirements on shift length limits and minimum rest periods for driving or anything else that carries fatigue-related safety risks. Is there any evidence that Amazon puts pressure on drivers to break these limits? I haven't heard of this being the case. But neither Amazon nor any other freight/delivery company can control its drivers' entire lives. No matter how much it pays, it can't stop some workers working multiple jobs - due to having severe debts or other personal motivations to work more than they should.
    - EarlKing 6y ago
      Yes and no. Being tired on-shift is generally only an issue for drivers with 10-hour shifts and a long commute. A lot of DSPs only service 8-hour routes partly for this reason (the other reason being, obviously, lack of desire to pay overtime). Amazon Logistics used to look the other way when their drivers ran over the alloted time for their route because on-time delivery was deemed the more important variable for them. At some point I guess someone looked at how much they were spending on overtime and freaked out because that practice ended real quick. I could see someone being tired if they were covering extra shifts, though, which may be a problem in some DSPs that have more routes than drivers. This happens when too many people call off and/or the DSP doesn't reserve enough drivers in the schedule that day to cover call-offs. On a long enough timeline that will definitely lead to exhaustion in drivers. That said, that problem isn't solved by AI. That problem is solved by placing realistic weekly limits on how much drivers can work and penalizing DSPs that fail to budget enough drivers for call-offs and/or who fail to terminate drivers that habitually fail to show. This porkoscope is unnecessary.

Clewza313 6y ago

Obligatory dystopian scifi on this theme: https://marshallbrain.com/manna1 https://marshallbrain.com/manna1

EarlKing 6y ago
Between this latest tripe and Mentor this is more or less the daily reality for amazon drivers. What's worse is the complete lack of any sort of responsibility on the part of eDriving. Even when you can prove that there is clearly a device compatibility issue that's causing them to erroneously flag your device for 'phone distraction' they refuse to acknowledge any culpability. Clearly it must be user error. Eventually this is going to start costing them jobs and money... and even then they'll just find a way to shift blame. At this point I don't want to buy anything from them anymore. It's just not worth supporting this kind of institutional myopia.

e-clinton 6y ago

Many blue collar workers are recorded all day long. In fact, it’d be tough finding a brick-and-mortar store that doesn’t have recording devices all over. Why is this news? Because it’s in a truck? Because it’s using AI?

koolba 6y ago
Having a recording to examine when investigating an incident is different than an AI analyzes all video feeds in real time. The latter is more like each camera having a security team watching it 24/7. That may be common in some high risk environments (e.g. gambling or other large cash situations) but it’s certainly not the norm in vanilla retail. Truck drivers have historically been independent, in both corporate structure and mindedness, so I can see this being particularly off putting.
- Kye 6y ago
  Even the screens in 1984 couldn't be monitored all the time. Somehow reality keeps becoming worse than fiction.
  - dudul 6y ago
    1984 is already one of the most terrifying books I've read, I can't imagine what it would have been if Orwell had foreseen the emergence of AI/ML technologies.
    - throwaway316943 6y ago
      We need a follow up book, 2084. Maybe the vid screens are permanently strapped to your face and actively monitor you and act as an intermediary between you and your environment in order to prevent any anti party information from getting in.
      - koolba 6y ago
        2048 would be a better title.

agsamek 6y ago

What is the difference between this and having cctv in a factory building? Companies impose more work control over more people. If a company makes good use of it then it becomes a regular practice. If not then employees select another employer. We are lucky that we work in a creative field, most occupancies require just good, repetitive work. There should be a legal framework to destroy archive recordings, liability for misusing them, because there is a room for real abuse. Not in the work control.

beckman466 6y ago
[deleted]
- agsamek 6y ago
  Agree. But this is a different story...
mft_ 6y ago
Because Amazon + cameras + AI + sensationalism = clicks? To me, the idea of an algorithm which detects when a driver is at increased risk (e.g. drowsy, or not wearing a seatbelt, or maybe using a phone inappropriately) seems like a fundamentally good move. And makes basic sense in any vehicle still piloted by a human. The issue is that (of course) people being watched by a camera opens the potential of misuse, and so (as ever) people jump to worse-case scenarios and start using emotionally-loaded words like ‘dystopian’. Of course, we don’t know for sure if it will be misused, and/or dystopian, until it’s actually implemented and we have observed results... but people do like to get upset and sensationalise just about anything that’s a new idea, these days.
- EarlKing 6y ago
  So you're going to be perfectly OK with people monitoring your vehicle 24/7 for how much you actually use the public roads, right? Because that won't be abused either. And that, by the way, is a perennial suggestion that got floated again recently. How about setting aside whether this is useful and consider that maybe it's blatantly anti-labor? They can already monitor who's wearing a seatbelt or not with vehicle telemetry. Adding this on top of their existing monitoring apparatus is sociopathic.

tomhoward 6y ago

Maybe it's just that I live in Australia, a country that has very strict road safety laws and practices, which are generally supported by the community, given that our road fatality figures are now very low (in 2019 we had just under 1200 road deaths in a nation of 25.3M people - a low rate by world standards, particularly given how much we drive here). But I just don't see the cause for outrage over this - as long as the system really is focused on the safety of drivers and other road users. Sure, over-work is an issue for Amazon, but it's an issue for all freight/delivery/transport companies, particularly when the company is engaging private contractors, as they can't control how long a driver works, how fatigued they are, and how much they adhere to other safety practices like seatbelts. I'm all for criticising Amazon and other companies when they really do go wrong and treat workers poorly, but what is the real evidence that this is such a case? How do we know this is anything other than a bona fide effort to ensure drivers are operating safely for the benefit of themselves and other road users? The reference to AI in the article makes it sound dystopian, but isn't this potentially better, if it just means that computation is used to detect any issues rather than having humans watching their fellow workers?

ptero 6y ago
I think the fear and the expectation (based on extensive previous experience) is that this technology, regardless of it's stated purpose, will be used to eke out a few extra seconds of efficiency from human drivers. Which will likely lead to stress and extra fatigue. In my book, automating boring and repetitive tasks is good even if it leads to some job losses. Turning humans into robots by optimizing for every bit of near-term efficiency is not. My 2c.
- thepete2 6y ago
  Yes. Notice that if the goal was really "safety" (as stated), the company does not need a "live feed" ever, a warning to the driver is enough. After all his safety is in his own best interest.
  - erikerikson 6y ago

ashaikh 6y ago

I don’t think the systems are new or unique. We test drive a Kia last weekend and it was a feature they called “Driver Attention Warning.” I’ve seen this in other brands and cars as well. It looks like these systems use a variety of factors, steering patterns, frequency of vehicle lane assist being activated, cameras evaluating driver, biometrics (heart rate, body temperature etc.), and face monitoring/eye tracking (to see if the driver is focused on the road). We own a Volvo and have received surveys asking about our comfort level with these features, so I’m assuming this will be commonplace soon.

Kye 6y ago
A monitoring system that helps you drive safer is different from a monitoring system that lets your employer judge your driving in real time.
- PaulRobinson 6y ago
  If the vehicle had these features built in by the manufacturer, and it was employer policy that the driver does not disable those features, would you still consider that to be a case of employers "judging" driving behaviour in real time? Or would it perhaps be a perfectly reasonable policy? This is a monitoring system that helps drivers drive safer. Why are you assuming that it's anything else? You're assuming "judgement" in a way that isn't related to driver safety that is not supported by anything in the article or the features themselves.
  - Kye 6y ago
    I think we're coming at this from fundamentally different worldviews. Mine tells me employers always turn new technology against labor. I don't assume it will happen, I look to history and make an informed prediction.
  - pirocks 6y ago
    My understanding is that this is a system which is recording the driver for review by human management at a later date. Which is very different from anything that would come pre-installed in a vehicle.

boomboomsubban 6y ago

Well, this system will at least make it harder for Amazon to deny knowing their drivers are peeing in bottles and pooping in bags. I also can't blame the drivers for not wanting those acts immortalized.

FearlessNebula 6y ago
A buddy of mine has an ostomy pouch and Amazon won't stop sending him job offers. Apparently they love employees who pee and or poop in bags...
- EarlKing 6y ago
  If you'd ever seen the inside of an Amazon bag you'd know that's pretty much in the job description.
bobajeff 6y ago
That's the real reason for the outrage. This isn't about safety at all this is about protecting Amazon. The driver with face all the penalties if a accident occurs. The camera footage will only show what the drivers are doing and not what their dispatchers are doing.
text70 6y ago
It could be another opportunity for Amazon to diversify into paid public restrooms, that are free for drivers, but cost the public a few cents.

neonate 6y ago

Archive of original Thomson Reuters article here: https://archive.md/ws6T3 https://archive.md/ws6T3

eth0up 6y ago

My suggestion, especially to those who strongly advocate such surveillance, is that those who support or implement it should be under an even greater measure of surveillance. A live feed of their activities 24/7 is necessary due to their participation and effecting in a tentative, unprecedented surveillance state where the watched would be extremely foolish not to keep an unblinking eye on the watchers, who bear the brunt of responsibility. It should not stop there either; any form of personal information not legally protected should be made readily and easily available. That which is protected, should be lobbied to be public.

Santosh83 6y ago
This is all fine, but those who ultimately own wealth and power will pull all the strings. At crucial moments the cameras watching the watchers will malfunction.
- alacombe 6y ago
  Those with wealth and power will never be on cctv camera, only their minions will be.
erikerikson 6y ago
Some of us would agree. There are currently legal barriers to doing this. For example, recording audio without consent is criminal in Washington state and the basis is well argued. There are many serious issues to such a monitoring system and shifts that would be necessary in society but some potentially amazing benefits. Imagine the end of "he said, she said". The reduction of incentives for running scams. The reduction in security related spending.
- eth0up 6y ago
  >Imagine the end of.... A mere beginning to the end of flagrant double standards and the plebeian concession to live under them would be a dandy start. Since we're unwaveringly barreling toward the panopticon anyway, why not do so properly and see along the way who the true believers are, those willing to make genuine examples of themselves. The world should know Jeff's shower thoughts - they'll probably be foisted on it soon enough and skull bracketed AI cameras with thought-monitoring ultrasound would do well to keep everyone informed in a timely fashion. Until we wangle that, we have smartlocks, which could integrate well into a sort of prebreakfast polygraph which scans our general intent before unleashing us into the outside world where we might stretch the truth, make mischief or think in an unutilitarianly beneficial way. A morning multiple choice questionnaire could substitute during outages or glitches. We'd carry the completed form as we do driver licences. Real ID, Real Intent, auditable by any citizen on demand.

williesleg 6y ago

Meanwhile a lot of others still work. What's the story?

eplanit 6y ago

The drivers are necessary only until driverless vans are here (relatively soon). Drivers, being near the head of the line of people to be displaced, have little bargaining power.

dylan604 6y ago
So a driverless delivery vehichle arrives at the destination. Now what? How does the package get from the van to the destination? Some sort of Boston Dynamics robot jumps out with the package(s) to navigate curbs, walkways, steps/stairs/elevators? The actual driving of the delivery van is but a part of the delivery person's job functions.
- anticristi 6y ago
  I assume you meant to be sarcastic, but I do like your vision!

taylorius 6y ago

"Safety" is a magic abracadabra word, that is used these days to justify anything and everything someone wants to do. I don't blame the guy for quitting - sounds sinister and oppressive.

drdeadringer 6y ago
Tangentially reminds me of thoughts and theories behind the TV show "The Prisoner" regarding society.
rad_gruchalski 6y ago
„Safety“ sits right next to „green“.
- Black101 6y ago
  and terrorists, etc...

14 6y ago

Will the AI detect a driver sweating and suggest they have some water? Will AI detect that a driver needs to use the bathroom because it has be so many hours since the last bathroom stop? What other benefits could AI provide should they truly be looking to make the work safer and better?

kodah 6y ago

I think the outrage is warranted, but software engineers allowed this precedent many years ago. I can see the parallels between this and "security" software that is highly invasive. Software that installs itself in your certificate chain to decrypt all TLS communication, companies like Netskope that offer bridges with admin cloud credentials and check up on all changes you make to cloud documents, or the infinite array of software that captures every keystroke or file saved and filters it for patterns and reviews by a human. There's also software where a company can get a live capture of your desktop, though I've never discovered it in use. If you tell the average Jill/Joe about this, generally you'll see a reaction of shock, where if you tell an engineer about it they shrug it off. When you allow the surveillance state of the government to continue to expand you can expect the nanny behaviors of corporations to expand too.

drefanzor 6y ago

It would also probably invade their privacy in other ways, especially if they are not given enough time to use the restroom. It appears drivers have been defecating and urinating while on the move, in their delivery trucks. Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez even got into a Twitter feud with the verified Amazon News account over the ordeal, and posted a screenshot of an email complaining about "poop" coming back in returns; they were using the boxes or return envelopes to defecate in. ref: https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1375502593863073792?s=20 https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1375502593863073792?s=20 A solution would be to somehow implement bigger cabs with the ability to quickly "go" when you need. Another solution would be to give drivers a break when they need and ease up the pressure.

jrowley 6y ago

He totally sounds like an independent contractor, definitely has a lot of control over his work. Most definitely not an employee of Amazon or a shell company who’s only customer is Amazon.

imchillyb 6y ago

The word 'safety' is propaganda. These monitoring devices are installed to limit company liability, limit company losses, and limit driver 'free-time' which the company pays for. Using the word safety, is legitimizing Amazon's spin on this technology. Please do not spread that garbage. These devices are installed solely to increase company profits.

pc86 6y ago

They quote "for fear of retaliation" yet tell us his name is Vic, he was a driver in Denver, and he quit in the last month. I wonder how many people fit that description? Even if they changed his name or location, there are only so many Vics or Denver-based drivers.

test8899 6y ago

If you can't see that Amazon's motives in this do not stem from good aspects of human potential and nature, whether they themselves realise it or not, then you lack insight. - I've stopped ordering from Amazon. Even if it costs a bit more, it feels so good. It's the right thing to do. I refuse to work for them, and so should you. Shame on the weak, greedy, and fearful that do. - Government regulation seems to be the only way to prevent a perverse, grotesque future and present. - But standing in the way - Cursed human delusion, confusion, greed and fear. Cursed ideology. - It acts in all of us. Damned be this condition. May we all see the light.

tracer4201 6y ago
This comes off as overly dramatic fear mongering. We’ve moved on from big oil being the bogey man and source of our problems to Amazon and big tech. Amazon has a detection system to figure out if you are getting tired. Sounds great to me. If you’re driving a huge rig or even a larger van, you falling asleep at the wheel means risk to your self and others on the road. Not everything is bad and evil. This almost feels like an anti Amazon propaganda campaign to me. Why? Amazon isn’t the only one in the delivery business. Do their competitors have the technological capability to put this kind of feature in production? Probably not. CCTVs have been around for decades. If surveillance was an issue, it would have come up many decades ago.

rsj_hn 6y ago

There is such a steady stream of anti-Amazon news articles now that even a single driver quitting is enough to make national news. At least according to Anabelle Williams, who seems to be on a jihad: https://www.businessinsider.com/author/annabelle-williams?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/author/annabelle-williams?op...

consumer451 6y ago

Related AMA from the driver in question: https://reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/mfrbty/hi_im_vic_a_former_amazon_driver_who_was/ https://reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/mfrbty/hi_im_vic_a_former... Notable q & a: > Have you gotten in trouble via the camera? > I haven't personally, because I didn't really drive with them for long enough. However, some other drivers did and I was there while it happened. They are shown their camera feed (in front of other drivers), called out, yelled at, and told to fix whatever issues the camera's AI recognizes under threat of losing their jobs.