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This is one of the aspects of the Islamic world that I do not like. Bartering/bribing/coercing is super common, and I fail to see how it could have any positive

This is one of the aspects of the Islamic world that I do not like. Bartering/bribing/coercing is super common, and I fail to see how it could have any positive benefit at all. My home country has huge Islamic influences, and it is prevalent there as well. All it does is destroy your sense of trust for any authority, and without even minimal trust no one ever tries to improve things, a vicious cycle.

supernova87a 6y ago
I have always been curious about this, because in my mind systems (however distasteful we may find them) do not arise for no reason. You imagine it reflects some underlying dynamics going on. I have heard that Arabic / Islamic society is much more family, neighbor, who-you-know oriented versus western society trusting more the rules of some authority, even if not personally known to you. Even for example, mundane things like if you need your plumbing fixed, you don't look up the yellow pages, you ask your friend to refer someone. Does this lead to "favors" being more acceptable, like as a gift to someone you know for having helped you? Interpreted in a more charitable way, bribes/baksheesh are an expression of gratitude (though now an obligation of doing business)? You start to think such factors must be ingrained in a people's mentality, because otherwise, why don't we just declare laws that make this sort of practice illegal and everyone is happier?
- em500 6y ago
  Some economists / sociologists classify this as low-trust/high-trust societies. In low-trust societies, trust typically does not extend far beyond family and personal connections. There's nothing Islamic about it: low-trust is more or less synonymous with low- to middle income societies, with the majority non-Islamic (China, India, Latin America). High-trust is largly "Western" (North America, Western/Norhern Europe, Oceania), but also the rich Asian countries (Japan, South Korean, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore). The causal relationship between high-trust and high-income is difficult to disentangle, but there's plausibly some form of positive feedback loop at work. I'm not sure what you have in mind with "arise for no reason". Both historically and presently by population-majority, low-trust society seem the norm and high-trust the exeption. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_trust_and_low_trust_societies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_trust_and_low_trust_socie...
  - rich_sasha 6y ago
    While I mostly agree, I thought Japan is meant to be notorious for corruption? A very different type, of course: not handing in used notes to a tax official, but rather high-level, white-glove type thing. Like, making sure the state turns a blind eye to safety failings at a nuclear plant. Maybe there is another dimension than low/high trust?
    - AlanYx 6y ago
      The low/high trust distinction for many writers (e.g., Fukuyama in Trust) isn't primarily about trust in government to be uncorrupt (or even societal trust in government more generally), but rather about a shared consensus about social rules that facilitates reliable, predictable interpersonal cooperation. e.g., A person can trust that if they enter into an agreement with someone else, there's a likelihood that person will perform without a third party outside of the agreement interposing themselves and insisting on a bribe, and if they don't perform, there's a set of neutral rules (e.g., the courts) to resolve the dispute that again don't require exogenous pressures like bribes or influence from powerful family members. Basically less uncertainty, that in turn creates less unnecessary economic friction. Japan satisfies this definition of a high trust society. Trusting that the government can't be bribed is an aspect of the high/low trust concept, but it's not really the core.
  - dctoedt 6y ago
    > The causal relationship between high-trust and high-income is difficult to disentangle, but there's plausibly some form of positive feedback loop at work. I've read that the rule of law has something to do with it. E.g.: "Where civil liberties and property rights are secure under a strong rule of law, fewer social resources are up for political grabs and groups have less opportunity to benefit via zero-sum or negative-sum competition against other groups." https://www.oecd.org/innovation/research/1825662.pdf https://www.oecd.org/innovation/research/1825662.pdf
  - IAmEveryone 6y ago
    And, of course, trust is having a crisis. Witness the Bitcoin crowd, and their distrust of the FED and other political institutions.
- stdbrouw 6y ago
  There's an interesting treatise, "L'invention de l'homme moderne" by Robert Muchembled, where he details how medieval Europe transitioned from a decentralized and low-trust environment to a centralized and high-trust environment with independent arbiters like police and the courts. For most people, in most regions and most points in time, the idea that a central authority would decide what is right, what you can and cannot charge, how you can and cannot deal with those who harm you, etc., would be completely alien. Central authorities waged wars and asked for taxes and that was pretty much it.
hnarn 6y ago
What you're describing is "corruption" and no, it does not have any positive benefit. It's the system that develops in the vacuum from a well working state, because when there is a general low level of trust, the quite human way to resolve that is to build "networks of trust" within society and that's not a good thing, because if you don't have a societal contract on how everyone should behave, the society won't be very nice to live in. This also has nothing to do with Islam, you'll see it in most of the developing world and of course even in developed countries, but normally more contained. I guess the extreme of this would be a country like Russia that more or less runs on bribes and favors, while at the same time having most actors accepting that nothing can be done about it.
- 4gotunameagain 6y ago
  The reason that this is classified as an Islamic cultural aspect in my mind is the clear differentiation between coexisting societies where I grew up. The more "eastern" societal clusters have this kind of mentality more prevalent, while the most "western" ones not so much, while both are next to each other and equally poor. The fact that other cultures share these aspects does not invalidate their presence in Islamic countries in my point of view, and of course I cannot prove that this is the case, the same way that no one can prove that it is not either. Of course I could be wrong
  - hnarn 6y ago
    I think that corruption and economical development being inversely correlated is pretty widely accepted, but of course it doesn't have to be linear and exactly the same in different countries. In general though, the more well off the country is, the less need there is for corruption.
    - deepsun 6y ago
      Or the other way around: the less corruption there is, the more developed is the country.
      - 6y ago
oilbagz 6y ago
This has nothing to do with the Islamic world and everything to do with poverty and income disparity. The fact that you associate this with Islam is repugnant. The West is equally corrupt - you just don't gain a moral kick from recognizing the equivalence.
- skrebbel 6y ago
  > The fact that you associate this with Islam is repugnant. I think that your comment would've been a lot stronger without the jab. Every time you call someone repugnant for having a particular bias (which we all do), you increase distance and decrease understanding.
  - oilbagz 6y ago
    Expressions of religious bigotry are not conducive to HN's guidelines. Bigotry on the basis of religious grounds is repugnant wherever you see it, and should be called out wherever you see it, because it always results in atrocities. Casual bigotry like this only grows into collective hatred through complicity.
    - sebmellen 6y ago
      The problem arises when any sort of criticism of a religious system or philosophy results in accusations of bigotry. Reminds me of Christopher Hitchens's eerily prophetic view of the spreading of the word "Islamophobia" [0]. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EYg8Tgrh0o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EYg8Tgrh0o
      - oilbagz 6y ago
        This would only be an appropriate and accurate response if indeed Islam promoted corruption in its teachings. It does not. It only takes a bigot to assume it does, however.
        ALittleLight 6y ago
amir734jj 6y ago
I'm from Iran but I actually have been living in the US for 12+ years. In my home country bribery is common but what is worse is finding the right person who has connections to bribe. My dad was in construction business (roads, bridges and dams) and he worked hard but he was always cash flow negative even though he was bribing generously. It turned out he could have been bribing the boss directly instead of bribing the employee and employee bribing the boss. What's funny is my dad is retired now but the boss and the guy he was bribing are both living happily in Toronto, Canada thanks to Canada's investment visa and basically no rules for dirty money.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  Canada is really surprisingly blatant about their lack of concern for the origin of money. Your story sort of reminds me of the craze of Chinese millionaires buying homes in Vancouver and British Columbia as safe haven assets.
  - 908B64B197 6y ago
    And yet, their government boast about the quality of it's immigrants and wished to increase the already out-of-control immigration quotas...
- SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
  > but the boss and the guy he was bribing are both living happily in Toronto, Canada Yep. Similar, where I am (London UK) is, depending on how you measure it, not corrupt at all, or staggeringly corrupt. Not corrupt at all, because it's nigh-impossible to bribe your way out of speeding fine or into a planning approval. Staggeringly corrupt because it's a huge parking lot for dirty money from secretive sources around the world, mostly stored in real estate, and thus facilitates massive global corruption.
  - AlanYx 6y ago
    The UK has been relatively proactive regarding money laundering. It was actually one of the first countries to mandate a publicly accessible company registry that includes beneficial owners. Canada is on the other end of the spectrum in terms of both transparency requirements and enforcement, so much so that the term "snow washing" has become part of the vernacular internationally, and even garnered its own Wikipedia entry. There are developing countries (e.g., Ghana) that have more robust anti-money laundering regimes.
toomanybeersies 6y ago
> This is one of the aspects of the Islamic world that I do not like It's not an aspect of the Islamic world, it's an aspect of the non-developed world.
- GordonS 6y ago
  I was going to say the same thing - I've directly experienced corruption and bribes in Egypt, Indonesia, India and Brazil. Religion is not the issue.
arnaudsm 6y ago
Corruption still exists in the west, and is much harder to fight since it is well hidden and mostly in the upper spheres.
- vinay427 6y ago
  I don't see how it's comparatively well-hidden, let alone harder to fight as a result. There seems to be just as much hidden corruption at the upper levels in less wealthy and non-western countries, except that there's also more lower-level and visible corruption in those countries.
stef25 6y ago
When I did some overland traveling in Africa this was extremely common. At the border crossing between Mauritania and Senegal there was a little "immigration" hut where you'd have to get your passport stamped. One very well dressed official in Ray-Bans just took people's passports and set them on a pile and they'd stay there for hours unless you'd slip in a bank note. All he had to was stamp them, nothing else. Other travellers I was with refused to "take part in this corruption", I happily gave the guy a fee and was on my way. It's either that or standing around in the scorching sun for hours mobbed by begging locals. At every checkpoint you'd have police / military with Kalashnikovs asking for a "petit cadeau" (little gift). At first they're very intimidating but after a while you realise they're totally harmless and will just let you pass if you just say "no sorry". Most are extremely bored and just happy to see you. In the Western Sahara they'd even invite us to some tea, teach us a few words of Arabic and one of them even asked "you, give me laptop?" Yeah sure buddy! Preloading one with a keylogger could be fun! One guy traveling with us in a car told the story of when he first drove in Africa. In Senegal he got pulled over and police fined him 50$ cause he didn't have a danger triangle. The next year he got pulled over again and proudly showed them the triangle but he was fined 50$ again cause he didn't have 2x danger triangles. You don't know whether to laugh or cry. Good times.
- azalemeth 6y ago
  My dad (a retired airline pilot) ran a flight school in Kenya at some point before I was born. He was a high-up examiner in the Kenyan aviation scene. He eventually left after being shot at for not taking bribes, and routinely saw e.g. partially sighted pilots saying things like "Tally-ho chaps I'm coming in" on the radio at their favourite light aircraft airfield and the runway / taxiway just emptying as everyone legged it. Corruption has a huge cost.
  - NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
    A propos: https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/business/pakistan-fake-pilot-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/business/pakistan-fake-pilot-... Pakistan's civil aviation authority believed up to a third of commercial pilots in the country did not actually pass their pilot licensing exams.
tim333 6y ago
Things seem to have got a bit better in Egypt. I've been here 3 months and yet to be asked for a bribe in spite of dealing with many roadblocks and a visa extension. Also the unpleasantness of having to haggle with taxis has been removed in Cairo by them having Uber. Quite a contrast with Luxor where there is no Uber and you have to deal with ten taxi guys shouting at you when you get off a bus.
- retSava 6y ago
  I've traveled backpacker-style and off the track etc in quite a few countries, many of them really poor. Egypt has by far been the worst place to visit when it comes to the locals. >50% of all money transactions (eg booking a tour, or buying water in a small shop, ...) the seller tried to scam me, whether it was ridiculous overcharge, bait and switch, not the right change, .... Worst was the idiots around tourist attractions, like camel riders close to the pyramids in Cairo, but a security guard with AK-47 at the airport wasn't pleasant either. He said plainly he wanted baksheesh or our baggage would be overweight. We got the tip to buy an arabic newspaper and carry it with me visible but not in a pointing-it-out manner. The idea is that people see it and think I know the ways. Worked, a bit.
NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
Please don't promote the idea that this is limited to the Islamic world. Low-level corruption is just endemic across much of the world, whether it is notionally Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Buddhist or none of the above.
- ryanmarsh 6y ago
  There are Christian countries?
  - tacostakohashi 6y ago
    Yes, there are established churches in several countries, England being one example. There's a list here for your reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_state
    - Chris2048 6y ago
      The official status of things, and the actual influence of monarchy/CoE in England are quite different. e.g; "Ofsted stopped inspecting collective worship in 2004, after 76 per cent of schools were found to be non-compliant." -- https://schoolsweek.co.uk/worship-in-school-assemblies-is-inappropriate-say-half-of-britons/ https://schoolsweek.co.uk/worship-in-school-assemblies-is-in...
    - ryanmarsh 6y ago
      LOL at England still being a Christian country. I think the citizens might take issue with your assertion.
      - tacostakohashi 6y ago
        It's not my assertion, it's the law of the land since 1558 Act of Supremacy. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aep/Eliz1/1/1?view=plain https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aep/Eliz1/1/1?view=plain
- CivBase 6y ago
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
A police officer in rural Colombia can be negotiated with to obtain an outcome that is satisfactory to all parties. Try that at the San Fransisco DMV, even if they want to help you they can't because the process is the process. There are pros and cons to both systems. The low bribery systems tend to curb the worst behavior (no amount of donating to the right causes will help you put a toxic waste processing plant in Manhatten) at the expense of really screwing the people who are edge cases. The equatorial developing nations tend to have a lot of class divide and racism problems that get nastier in a regulatory environment where everything is fuzzy. If you want to see a bribery based regulatory environment done right look at eastern Europe from 1980-2000ish (years vary depending on where you look). HN loves the "hurr durr stupid poor countries and their bribery" trope but for those countries routine bribery is mostly just a cultural workaround for the fact that they can't afford a massive administrative state to grant you a stupid variance from their stupid zoning rules on your stupid garden shed (or whatever). They're effectively pushing decision making onto the leaves of the organizational tree and cutting the organizational tree out of the payment loop somewhat. Yes, it goes awry sometimes but it's not like western bureaucracies have any lack of similarly bad outcomes.
- DangerousPie 6y ago
  I don't know about you but I don't want my police officers to be "negotiated with". I want them to enforce the law fairly and evenly, and not waive laws for their personal gain.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    That works fine on paper and in internet comments but in reality the law is often asinine and/or intentionally broad to facilitate easy enforcement and enforcement is almost always subject to the discretion of those doing the enforcement. Their discretion is anything but fair and even. By saying you want the goalposts located at the "fairly and evenly line" you're just moving the inequality from being the fault of the enforcers to be the fault of other parts of the system. The poor guy can't take time off work to fight the ticket and the end result of the system is barely any fairer. If you're being reasonable it's much easier to say "officer, I'm being reasonable, here's some money, screw off" than it is to try and appeal to a bureaucracy, especially if you're doing something that's outside the letter of the law but within the spirit of the law. For most people most of the time the difference is a wash. The main difference is the edge cases and failure modes. Think about this next time you're (you reading this comment with disdain, not the person I'm replying to in particular) waiting for a police officer to finish writing you your ticket for going the same speed as everyone else while looking slightly more interesting than everyone else.
M277 6y ago
I understand where you're coming from, and I sympathize with your comment (indeed, I am suffering from it as well), however I disagree that it's an Islamic world issue. It's common in underdeveloped / developing countries, a large amount of which are Islamic countries. As for why it happens or why it's common... there are plenty of reasons, really. (obviously, I will talk about my country only, and what I see) Personally, I believe that the most important one / the root cause is that the law isn't enforced, which erodes peoples' trust in it as well as people's respect, and you end up with people exploiting that (a vicious cycle, as you said). Not only that, but when the law is finally enforced, it's usually not enforced fairly[1]. If anyone is curious about Islam's stance, well, Islam explicitly says: وَلاَ تَأْكُلُواْ أَمْوَالَكُم بَيْنَكُم بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتُدْلُواْ بِهَا إِلَى الْحُكَّامِ لِتَأْكُلُواْ فَرِيقًا مِّنْ أَمْوَالِ النَّاسِ بِالإِثْمِ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ [البقرة:188]. Translation: "And do not consume one another's wealth unjustly or send it [in bribery] to the rulers in order that [they might aid] you [to] consume a portion of the wealth of the people in sin, while you know [it is unlawful]." روى الإمام أحمد عن ثوبان قال رسول الله: لَعَنَ اللّه‏ُ الراشيَ والمُرتَشِيَ والرائشَ الذي يَمشِي بَينَهُما.. Translation: The Prophet (S) said, 'Allah's curse is on the briber, the bribed, and the agent between them.’ And there are more. I do not blame you (nor anyone else) for the correlation, I just wanted to clarify. --- [1] This is off-topic, but there was a huge issue in Egypt with regards to people building apartment complexes and buildings illegally, through bribing the province officials. Well, recently,the government said that enough is enough and went to crack down on that. They placed huge fines on the illegal buildings (supposed to be paid by the builder in question / building owner, but he/she actually have no incentive to, so the people who paid were actually the building residents), and said that if the fines aren't paid, the buildings will be bulldozed (and indeed, some were). They punished the people who bought residence in the illegal buildings (some of whom actually didn't know that it was illegal). But the governmental workers / officials who gave out the fake permits and took the bribes? Not a single one was punished.
mschuster91 6y ago
> This is one of the aspects of the Islamic world that I do not like. Bartering/bribing/coercing is super common, and I fail to see how it could have any positive benefit at all. Sorry but that just sounds massively Islamophobic. I'm half Croatian, we have had a history of more-or-less open corruption in all levels of government, from policemen to heads of state, and the same applies for wide swaths of Eastern Europe. Not to mention the entire narcorruption situation in Southern America. Corruption is a symptom of weak government structures (and, to some extent, poverty) which force people to fend for themselves on all levels to survive, not something that is inherently tied to any religion or ethnicity.
- frosted-flakes 6y ago
  GP didn't say that corruption was limited to the Islamic world, just that it's one aspect of the Islamic world that he doesn't like. Of course corruption is widespread around the world.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
I think you mean "non-first-world" countries as it's relatively common in all poor countries (or countries that are "rich" but have huge poor populations with only the 0.1% having all the wealth) not just islamic countries.

supernova87a 6y ago

I have always been curious about this, because in my mind systems (however distasteful we may find them) do not arise for no reason. You imagine it reflects some underlying dynamics going on. I have heard that Arabic / Islamic society is much more family, neighbor, who-you-know oriented versus western society trusting more the rules of some authority, even if not personally known to you. Even for example, mundane things like if you need your plumbing fixed, you don't look up the yellow pages, you ask your friend to refer someone. Does this lead to "favors" being more acceptable, like as a gift to someone you know for having helped you? Interpreted in a more charitable way, bribes/baksheesh are an expression of gratitude (though now an obligation of doing business)? You start to think such factors must be ingrained in a people's mentality, because otherwise, why don't we just declare laws that make this sort of practice illegal and everyone is happier?

em500 6y ago
Some economists / sociologists classify this as low-trust/high-trust societies. In low-trust societies, trust typically does not extend far beyond family and personal connections. There's nothing Islamic about it: low-trust is more or less synonymous with low- to middle income societies, with the majority non-Islamic (China, India, Latin America). High-trust is largly "Western" (North America, Western/Norhern Europe, Oceania), but also the rich Asian countries (Japan, South Korean, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore). The causal relationship between high-trust and high-income is difficult to disentangle, but there's plausibly some form of positive feedback loop at work. I'm not sure what you have in mind with "arise for no reason". Both historically and presently by population-majority, low-trust society seem the norm and high-trust the exeption. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_trust_and_low_trust_societies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_trust_and_low_trust_socie...
- rich_sasha 6y ago
  While I mostly agree, I thought Japan is meant to be notorious for corruption? A very different type, of course: not handing in used notes to a tax official, but rather high-level, white-glove type thing. Like, making sure the state turns a blind eye to safety failings at a nuclear plant. Maybe there is another dimension than low/high trust?
  - AlanYx 6y ago
    The low/high trust distinction for many writers (e.g., Fukuyama in Trust) isn't primarily about trust in government to be uncorrupt (or even societal trust in government more generally), but rather about a shared consensus about social rules that facilitates reliable, predictable interpersonal cooperation. e.g., A person can trust that if they enter into an agreement with someone else, there's a likelihood that person will perform without a third party outside of the agreement interposing themselves and insisting on a bribe, and if they don't perform, there's a set of neutral rules (e.g., the courts) to resolve the dispute that again don't require exogenous pressures like bribes or influence from powerful family members. Basically less uncertainty, that in turn creates less unnecessary economic friction. Japan satisfies this definition of a high trust society. Trusting that the government can't be bribed is an aspect of the high/low trust concept, but it's not really the core.
- dctoedt 6y ago
  > The causal relationship between high-trust and high-income is difficult to disentangle, but there's plausibly some form of positive feedback loop at work. I've read that the rule of law has something to do with it. E.g.: "Where civil liberties and property rights are secure under a strong rule of law, fewer social resources are up for political grabs and groups have less opportunity to benefit via zero-sum or negative-sum competition against other groups." https://www.oecd.org/innovation/research/1825662.pdf https://www.oecd.org/innovation/research/1825662.pdf
- IAmEveryone 6y ago
  And, of course, trust is having a crisis. Witness the Bitcoin crowd, and their distrust of the FED and other political institutions.
stdbrouw 6y ago
There's an interesting treatise, "L'invention de l'homme moderne" by Robert Muchembled, where he details how medieval Europe transitioned from a decentralized and low-trust environment to a centralized and high-trust environment with independent arbiters like police and the courts. For most people, in most regions and most points in time, the idea that a central authority would decide what is right, what you can and cannot charge, how you can and cannot deal with those who harm you, etc., would be completely alien. Central authorities waged wars and asked for taxes and that was pretty much it.

hnarn 6y ago

What you're describing is "corruption" and no, it does not have any positive benefit. It's the system that develops in the vacuum from a well working state, because when there is a general low level of trust, the quite human way to resolve that is to build "networks of trust" within society and that's not a good thing, because if you don't have a societal contract on how everyone should behave, the society won't be very nice to live in. This also has nothing to do with Islam, you'll see it in most of the developing world and of course even in developed countries, but normally more contained. I guess the extreme of this would be a country like Russia that more or less runs on bribes and favors, while at the same time having most actors accepting that nothing can be done about it.

4gotunameagain 6y ago
The reason that this is classified as an Islamic cultural aspect in my mind is the clear differentiation between coexisting societies where I grew up. The more "eastern" societal clusters have this kind of mentality more prevalent, while the most "western" ones not so much, while both are next to each other and equally poor. The fact that other cultures share these aspects does not invalidate their presence in Islamic countries in my point of view, and of course I cannot prove that this is the case, the same way that no one can prove that it is not either. Of course I could be wrong
- hnarn 6y ago
  I think that corruption and economical development being inversely correlated is pretty widely accepted, but of course it doesn't have to be linear and exactly the same in different countries. In general though, the more well off the country is, the less need there is for corruption.
  - deepsun 6y ago
    Or the other way around: the less corruption there is, the more developed is the country.
    - 6y ago

oilbagz 6y ago

This has nothing to do with the Islamic world and everything to do with poverty and income disparity. The fact that you associate this with Islam is repugnant. The West is equally corrupt - you just don't gain a moral kick from recognizing the equivalence.

skrebbel 6y ago
> The fact that you associate this with Islam is repugnant. I think that your comment would've been a lot stronger without the jab. Every time you call someone repugnant for having a particular bias (which we all do), you increase distance and decrease understanding.
- oilbagz 6y ago
  Expressions of religious bigotry are not conducive to HN's guidelines. Bigotry on the basis of religious grounds is repugnant wherever you see it, and should be called out wherever you see it, because it always results in atrocities. Casual bigotry like this only grows into collective hatred through complicity.
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    The problem arises when any sort of criticism of a religious system or philosophy results in accusations of bigotry. Reminds me of Christopher Hitchens's eerily prophetic view of the spreading of the word "Islamophobia" [0]. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EYg8Tgrh0o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EYg8Tgrh0o
    - oilbagz 6y ago
      This would only be an appropriate and accurate response if indeed Islam promoted corruption in its teachings. It does not. It only takes a bigot to assume it does, however.
      - ALittleLight 6y ago

amir734jj 6y ago

I'm from Iran but I actually have been living in the US for 12+ years. In my home country bribery is common but what is worse is finding the right person who has connections to bribe. My dad was in construction business (roads, bridges and dams) and he worked hard but he was always cash flow negative even though he was bribing generously. It turned out he could have been bribing the boss directly instead of bribing the employee and employee bribing the boss. What's funny is my dad is retired now but the boss and the guy he was bribing are both living happily in Toronto, Canada thanks to Canada's investment visa and basically no rules for dirty money.

sebmellen 6y ago
Canada is really surprisingly blatant about their lack of concern for the origin of money. Your story sort of reminds me of the craze of Chinese millionaires buying homes in Vancouver and British Columbia as safe haven assets.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  And yet, their government boast about the quality of it's immigrants and wished to increase the already out-of-control immigration quotas...
SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
> but the boss and the guy he was bribing are both living happily in Toronto, Canada Yep. Similar, where I am (London UK) is, depending on how you measure it, not corrupt at all, or staggeringly corrupt. Not corrupt at all, because it's nigh-impossible to bribe your way out of speeding fine or into a planning approval. Staggeringly corrupt because it's a huge parking lot for dirty money from secretive sources around the world, mostly stored in real estate, and thus facilitates massive global corruption.
- AlanYx 6y ago
  The UK has been relatively proactive regarding money laundering. It was actually one of the first countries to mandate a publicly accessible company registry that includes beneficial owners. Canada is on the other end of the spectrum in terms of both transparency requirements and enforcement, so much so that the term "snow washing" has become part of the vernacular internationally, and even garnered its own Wikipedia entry. There are developing countries (e.g., Ghana) that have more robust anti-money laundering regimes.

toomanybeersies 6y ago

> This is one of the aspects of the Islamic world that I do not like It's not an aspect of the Islamic world, it's an aspect of the non-developed world.

GordonS 6y ago
I was going to say the same thing - I've directly experienced corruption and bribes in Egypt, Indonesia, India and Brazil. Religion is not the issue.

arnaudsm 6y ago

Corruption still exists in the west, and is much harder to fight since it is well hidden and mostly in the upper spheres.

vinay427 6y ago
I don't see how it's comparatively well-hidden, let alone harder to fight as a result. There seems to be just as much hidden corruption at the upper levels in less wealthy and non-western countries, except that there's also more lower-level and visible corruption in those countries.

stef25 6y ago

When I did some overland traveling in Africa this was extremely common. At the border crossing between Mauritania and Senegal there was a little "immigration" hut where you'd have to get your passport stamped. One very well dressed official in Ray-Bans just took people's passports and set them on a pile and they'd stay there for hours unless you'd slip in a bank note. All he had to was stamp them, nothing else. Other travellers I was with refused to "take part in this corruption", I happily gave the guy a fee and was on my way. It's either that or standing around in the scorching sun for hours mobbed by begging locals. At every checkpoint you'd have police / military with Kalashnikovs asking for a "petit cadeau" (little gift). At first they're very intimidating but after a while you realise they're totally harmless and will just let you pass if you just say "no sorry". Most are extremely bored and just happy to see you. In the Western Sahara they'd even invite us to some tea, teach us a few words of Arabic and one of them even asked "you, give me laptop?" Yeah sure buddy! Preloading one with a keylogger could be fun! One guy traveling with us in a car told the story of when he first drove in Africa. In Senegal he got pulled over and police fined him 50$ cause he didn't have a danger triangle. The next year he got pulled over again and proudly showed them the triangle but he was fined 50$ again cause he didn't have 2x danger triangles. You don't know whether to laugh or cry. Good times.

azalemeth 6y ago
My dad (a retired airline pilot) ran a flight school in Kenya at some point before I was born. He was a high-up examiner in the Kenyan aviation scene. He eventually left after being shot at for not taking bribes, and routinely saw e.g. partially sighted pilots saying things like "Tally-ho chaps I'm coming in" on the radio at their favourite light aircraft airfield and the runway / taxiway just emptying as everyone legged it. Corruption has a huge cost.
- NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
  A propos: https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/business/pakistan-fake-pilot-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/business/pakistan-fake-pilot-... Pakistan's civil aviation authority believed up to a third of commercial pilots in the country did not actually pass their pilot licensing exams.

tim333 6y ago

Things seem to have got a bit better in Egypt. I've been here 3 months and yet to be asked for a bribe in spite of dealing with many roadblocks and a visa extension. Also the unpleasantness of having to haggle with taxis has been removed in Cairo by them having Uber. Quite a contrast with Luxor where there is no Uber and you have to deal with ten taxi guys shouting at you when you get off a bus.

retSava 6y ago
I've traveled backpacker-style and off the track etc in quite a few countries, many of them really poor. Egypt has by far been the worst place to visit when it comes to the locals. >50% of all money transactions (eg booking a tour, or buying water in a small shop, ...) the seller tried to scam me, whether it was ridiculous overcharge, bait and switch, not the right change, .... Worst was the idiots around tourist attractions, like camel riders close to the pyramids in Cairo, but a security guard with AK-47 at the airport wasn't pleasant either. He said plainly he wanted baksheesh or our baggage would be overweight. We got the tip to buy an arabic newspaper and carry it with me visible but not in a pointing-it-out manner. The idea is that people see it and think I know the ways. Worked, a bit.

NovemberWhiskey 6y ago

Please don't promote the idea that this is limited to the Islamic world. Low-level corruption is just endemic across much of the world, whether it is notionally Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Buddhist or none of the above.

ryanmarsh 6y ago
There are Christian countries?
- tacostakohashi 6y ago
  Yes, there are established churches in several countries, England being one example. There's a list here for your reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_state
  - Chris2048 6y ago
    The official status of things, and the actual influence of monarchy/CoE in England are quite different. e.g; "Ofsted stopped inspecting collective worship in 2004, after 76 per cent of schools were found to be non-compliant." -- https://schoolsweek.co.uk/worship-in-school-assemblies-is-inappropriate-say-half-of-britons/ https://schoolsweek.co.uk/worship-in-school-assemblies-is-in...
  - ryanmarsh 6y ago
    LOL at England still being a Christian country. I think the citizens might take issue with your assertion.
    - tacostakohashi 6y ago
      It's not my assertion, it's the law of the land since 1558 Act of Supremacy. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aep/Eliz1/1/1?view=plain https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aep/Eliz1/1/1?view=plain
CivBase 6y ago

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

A police officer in rural Colombia can be negotiated with to obtain an outcome that is satisfactory to all parties. Try that at the San Fransisco DMV, even if they want to help you they can't because the process is the process. There are pros and cons to both systems. The low bribery systems tend to curb the worst behavior (no amount of donating to the right causes will help you put a toxic waste processing plant in Manhatten) at the expense of really screwing the people who are edge cases. The equatorial developing nations tend to have a lot of class divide and racism problems that get nastier in a regulatory environment where everything is fuzzy. If you want to see a bribery based regulatory environment done right look at eastern Europe from 1980-2000ish (years vary depending on where you look). HN loves the "hurr durr stupid poor countries and their bribery" trope but for those countries routine bribery is mostly just a cultural workaround for the fact that they can't afford a massive administrative state to grant you a stupid variance from their stupid zoning rules on your stupid garden shed (or whatever). They're effectively pushing decision making onto the leaves of the organizational tree and cutting the organizational tree out of the payment loop somewhat. Yes, it goes awry sometimes but it's not like western bureaucracies have any lack of similarly bad outcomes.

DangerousPie 6y ago
I don't know about you but I don't want my police officers to be "negotiated with". I want them to enforce the law fairly and evenly, and not waive laws for their personal gain.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  That works fine on paper and in internet comments but in reality the law is often asinine and/or intentionally broad to facilitate easy enforcement and enforcement is almost always subject to the discretion of those doing the enforcement. Their discretion is anything but fair and even. By saying you want the goalposts located at the "fairly and evenly line" you're just moving the inequality from being the fault of the enforcers to be the fault of other parts of the system. The poor guy can't take time off work to fight the ticket and the end result of the system is barely any fairer. If you're being reasonable it's much easier to say "officer, I'm being reasonable, here's some money, screw off" than it is to try and appeal to a bureaucracy, especially if you're doing something that's outside the letter of the law but within the spirit of the law. For most people most of the time the difference is a wash. The main difference is the edge cases and failure modes. Think about this next time you're (you reading this comment with disdain, not the person I'm replying to in particular) waiting for a police officer to finish writing you your ticket for going the same speed as everyone else while looking slightly more interesting than everyone else.

M277 6y ago

I understand where you're coming from, and I sympathize with your comment (indeed, I am suffering from it as well), however I disagree that it's an Islamic world issue. It's common in underdeveloped / developing countries, a large amount of which are Islamic countries. As for why it happens or why it's common... there are plenty of reasons, really. (obviously, I will talk about my country only, and what I see) Personally, I believe that the most important one / the root cause is that the law isn't enforced, which erodes peoples' trust in it as well as people's respect, and you end up with people exploiting that (a vicious cycle, as you said). Not only that, but when the law is finally enforced, it's usually not enforced fairly[1]. If anyone is curious about Islam's stance, well, Islam explicitly says: وَلاَ تَأْكُلُواْ أَمْوَالَكُم بَيْنَكُم بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتُدْلُواْ بِهَا إِلَى الْحُكَّامِ لِتَأْكُلُواْ فَرِيقًا مِّنْ أَمْوَالِ النَّاسِ بِالإِثْمِ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ [البقرة:188]. Translation: "And do not consume one another's wealth unjustly or send it [in bribery] to the rulers in order that [they might aid] you [to] consume a portion of the wealth of the people in sin, while you know [it is unlawful]." روى الإمام أحمد عن ثوبان قال رسول الله: لَعَنَ اللّه‏ُ الراشيَ والمُرتَشِيَ والرائشَ الذي يَمشِي بَينَهُما.. Translation: The Prophet (S) said, 'Allah's curse is on the briber, the bribed, and the agent between them.’ And there are more. I do not blame you (nor anyone else) for the correlation, I just wanted to clarify. --- [1] This is off-topic, but there was a huge issue in Egypt with regards to people building apartment complexes and buildings illegally, through bribing the province officials. Well, recently,the government said that enough is enough and went to crack down on that. They placed huge fines on the illegal buildings (supposed to be paid by the builder in question / building owner, but he/she actually have no incentive to, so the people who paid were actually the building residents), and said that if the fines aren't paid, the buildings will be bulldozed (and indeed, some were). They punished the people who bought residence in the illegal buildings (some of whom actually didn't know that it was illegal). But the governmental workers / officials who gave out the fake permits and took the bribes? Not a single one was punished.

mschuster91 6y ago

> This is one of the aspects of the Islamic world that I do not like. Bartering/bribing/coercing is super common, and I fail to see how it could have any positive benefit at all. Sorry but that just sounds massively Islamophobic. I'm half Croatian, we have had a history of more-or-less open corruption in all levels of government, from policemen to heads of state, and the same applies for wide swaths of Eastern Europe. Not to mention the entire narcorruption situation in Southern America. Corruption is a symptom of weak government structures (and, to some extent, poverty) which force people to fend for themselves on all levels to survive, not something that is inherently tied to any religion or ethnicity.

frosted-flakes 6y ago
GP didn't say that corruption was limited to the Islamic world, just that it's one aspect of the Islamic world that he doesn't like. Of course corruption is widespread around the world.

stjohnswarts 6y ago

I think you mean "non-first-world" countries as it's relatively common in all poor countries (or countries that are "rich" but have huge poor populations with only the 0.1% having all the wealth) not just islamic countries.