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Tangent Alert! I have a 3 months resignation period, so I can't even leave... Maybe it's my (US) American experience, but being unable to quit a job strikes me

Tangent Alert! I have a 3 months resignation period, so I can't even leave... Maybe it's my (US) American experience, but being unable to quit a job strikes me as a terrible policy. This guy(gal?) is really required to submit 3 months notice or face some sort of repercussions (financial, I assume)? Does this 3 month period apply in reverse (employer can't fire employees without a full 3 month warning)? Not that the American system (no cause firing/quitting with no notice) is perfect, but 3 months? Yikes.

polote 6y ago
> Does this 3 month period apply in reverse Yes (in France at least) it is on both sides, unless both sides agree to shorten it > face some sort of repercussions (financial, I assume)? I'm speaking for France. This is a tricky subject, you almost can't get any repercussion. But it can sucks, like the employer can refuse to fire you and suspend your contract, in the mean time, you are not paid but are not allowed to work for someone else.
CaptainZapp 6y ago
> Does this 3 month period apply in reverse (employer can't fire employees without a full 3 month warning)? Of course. Different notice periods for employers and employees would be outright illegal in most of Europe.
- Symbiote 6y ago
  It's fairly common to have an X-month notice period to resign, and a 2X or X+1-month period to be made redundant.
- detaro 6y ago
  > Different notice periods for employers and employees would be outright illegal in most of Europe. AFAIK more common is "lower notice period for employers is illegal".
  - CaptainZapp 6y ago
    I stand corrected. See my comment below.
- driton 6y ago
  I am in the Netherlands, and my current contract stipulates that should they want to get rid of me, the company has to notify me 4 months in advance, whereas should I want to leave, I need to notify them 2 months in advance. Do you have any sources on the legality of different notice periods in Europe?
  - Aeolun 6y ago
    I guess it’s more to the extend that the notice period from company to employee cannot be less than employee to company.
  - CaptainZapp 6y ago
    The legal situation in Switzerland would (probably) allow for this. What it wouldn't allow is the reverse agreement. I.e. you can be fired in 2 month, but have to give 4 month notice. There are three types of employment laws herearound: - Statutes can be changed freely if both agree - They can be changed only to the employees advantage. For example: minimum vacation days are 20 days. A contract can stipulate 30 days, but not 10, or 15 days - Some statutes cannot be changed at all. I can obviously not speak for all of Europe (plus INAL, etc), but would assume that it's comparable in most of Europe, or even more stringent in terms of employee protection. Employee laws here are quite liberal compared to other European countries.
    - jerven 6y ago
      Adding to this great comment. Switzerland, default rules regarding termination (if I recall correctly). * first month of work, 0 second notice * rest of the first year of work, 1 month notice * second year of work, 2 months notice * years after third, 3 months notice Impossible to terminate: pregnant women, before and also during the legal maternity leave. Common termination is the day upon returning to the office. Personnel called up for the army or civil defence. People on a fixed contract. Employer must give notice but may be without reasons. Without reasons often leads to lawsuits, because terminated will claim one of the illegal (discrimination etc) reasons applies. Still cost of a lawsuit is normally not prohibitive. In case of critical financial issue termination maybe shorter (mass-layoffs).
obedm 6y ago
European here. Having 3 months written in your contract (and in many countries by law, like France) is pretty common. You can still quit if both parties agree. I've done it before. The clause is there to avoid this type of scenario where a key employee just says fuck it and leave. It works both ways. So a company can say fuck it and fire you just because they want to. It's a fantastic system. It can be exploited, but usually works really well for employees and it gives you a huge safety net you can (usually) rely on.
- mkl 6y ago
  > So a company can say fuck it and fire you "Can't", right? Otherwise it sounds like American at-will employment.
  - AnssiH 6y ago
    Right, missing "not". The law mandates that the firing notice period cannot be shorter than the resignation notice period.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- artursapek 6y ago
  > The clause is there to avoid this type of scenario where a key employee just says fuck it and leave. If they are at the "fuck it" point, what's going to force them to be useful and productive during the forced 3 month notice period?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - unionpivo 6y ago
    It's not really a fuck it point (usualy). If you reach that you just put in the notice, take whatever vacations you have and then put in sick leave. But 3 months notice is used for, so the company can hire a replacement for you, and you can help train him, and transfer knowledge. A lot of people reading this site work in companies that have huge teams, but most people in IT I know from EU (where I live) are one or two person IT teams. 3 or 4 person team is considered almost medium sized. In such situations you need yo hand of your task responsibly. And that the one thing that will get you burned, if you leave your previous employer hanging.
mingusrude 6y ago
In Sweden (don't know where this company is located) it's usual with collective bargain agreement and if you've been employed for along time (5+ years) it's not uncommon with 3 months notice. It is usually accompanied by 6 months if your employer wants to let you go (but it's not easy if you're the employer to let people go). Most of the time, these periods are negotiated when someone resigns though.
ACS_Solver 6y ago
In my EU-centric worldview, the US system of at-will employment, and of two-week notices as the standard courtesy, is crazy. Three months is the typical notice period for tech workers and other highly-skilled jobs. One month is the legal minimum in Sweden, and certainly several other countries. Of course it goes both ways, in fact it's even more difficult for the employer to get rid of an employee. An employee doesn't need a reason to resign, an employer needs a valid reason to fire an employee, in addition to observing the notice period. To complete the picture, it's necessary to say that probation periods exist. Employees may be initially hired on probation (typical for fresh graduates), which has a shorter notice period, and either side may unilaterally decide not to continue past probation. That is, an employer unhappy with a probation employee doesn't need additional legal grounds to say "we're not proceeding with full employment after the probation period is over".
- alistairSH 6y ago
  In my EU-centric worldview, the US system of at-will employment, and of two-week notices as the standard courtesy, is crazy. Oh, I agree. But 3 months seems crazy to me. If I have an open position and it isn't filled in ~4-6 weeks, it often gets given to some other team (on the basis that if I really needed that position filled, I'd do so). I can't plan hiring over that timeframe. And when hiring employees in India, we've had them claim a 2-month resignation period, but they just end up using that time to find some other opportunity on the previous employer's time. It's a real mess.
  - ACS_Solver 6y ago
    > Oh, I agree. But 3 months seems crazy to me. If I have an open position and it isn't filled in ~4-6 weeks, it often gets given to some other team (on the basis that if I really needed that position filled, I'd do so). I can't plan hiring over that timeframe. If you're in a culture (locality + industry) where a position can be filled in 4 weeks, that's one thing. If you're in a culture where every experienced person has 3 months of notice, then nobody would take your inability to fill a position within weeks to mean that you don't really need it. I have some experience with part-time contracting with US customers. Seeing how quickly people can join or leave there is certainly a culture shock!
numbernine 6y ago
In my country, we have a 3 month notice aswell and yes it does also apply in reverse. You can negociate to lower the period but most of the time the company will decline your request. For high-demand jobs it is a nightmare for everyone.
Symbiote 6y ago
I once had a colleague "go on holiday" and never come back to work. If you don't work your notice period, you obviously won't be paid for it, and any reference will state that you broke your contract. (Unless your employer asks that you don't come into work any more. This is called "gardening leave" in Britain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_leave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_leave , and it's normal in some industries and circumstances.)
- Mauricebranagh 6y ago
  :-) I once replaced some one (UK) who "disappeared" - apparently he went to NYC
Eremotherium 6y ago
At least in Germany this goes both ways. The period can also be longer depending on your seniority. This is to give the company time to find a proper replacement for you and allow for a smoother handoff. Of course if both parties agree the grace period can be skipped or shortened. You usually don't get stuck with duds because there's a probationary period of (max.) 6 months in the beginning in which these protections are not in place. Also (after the probationary period) the company needs a legal reason to fire you. If they wanna fire you for incompetence oder insubordination they need to have reprimanded you at least once officially, in written form. Only after getting a 2nd reprimand for the SAME THING can they act on it. Meaning if you told the boss to go fuck themselves once and shown up drunk to work once they wouldn't have legal grounds to fire you and if they did you'd drag their ass to labour court and get some kind of compensation.
- acjacobson 6y ago
  There are certain things that you can outright be fired for - such as stealing, I believe. I think that showing up drunk for work might also be one of them?
  - lqet 6y ago
    > I think that showing up drunk for work might also be one of them? Yes. Also if you just refuse to do any work.
  - Eremotherium 6y ago
    AFAIK showing up drunk isn't enough but if you fuck up (I think that's the legal term) and say you drop the production DB while drunk that you can be fired immediately.
    - clipradiowallet 6y ago
      IANAL: In the US, doing something destructive [at work] while intoxicated can be "gross negligence", which is criminal if I remember correctly. Example... you show up to work drunk, get in a forklift, and drive through a wall causing damage.
dagw 6y ago
2-3 month notice in both directions is standard in most of Europe.
tadzik_ 6y ago
In Poland it scales over time: you start off with 2 weeks notice (for both sides), after a year or so this jumps to one month, and after 3 years it jumps to 3 months, or something like that. I've seen people quit right before their 3 year anniversary just so that they don't fall into the 3-months-notice period. I haven't worked much on regular job agreements (been contracting or "contracting" most of my life), but generally if you want to quit you go to your boss and say "hey, I wanna quit" and you negotiate when, regardless of the default requirements (which only come into play if either side doesn't agree). There's no business in keeping an unproductive employee around for 3 months.
- K2L8M11N2 6y ago
  What do you mean by “contracting” in quotes?
  - sedeki 6y ago
    "Tax minimization" or worse, I suppose.
  - megous 6y ago
    When you're mostly indistinguishable from an employee, except for the legal relationship.
2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
I'm looking to leave my current job but if voluntarily leave in my first year I have to surrender my signing bonus. It's certainly a crushing feeling to be chained to a job. Even worse are these stupid 2 weeks or unimaginable 3 months notice. As everyone says- you'll never get notice you're being fired. It'll be quick like a mob hit.
- Aeolun 6y ago
  > you'll never get notice you're being fired In Europe you will. Or you’ll be sent home with the respective 3 months in salary anyway, but generally you work your 3 months. To be fair, I’ve never seen a notice period longer than a month.
- shagie 6y ago
  For many positions, the person isn't a positively contributing member for three to six months. A positive ROI on the expense of hiring them isn't realized until much later. Having signing and relocation bonuses be paid back if the person doesn't stay for a year is quite reasonable in that context. "We didn't pay for your relocation to X just so that you could change jobs after a few months." Two weeks notice is a courtesy. The much maligned PIP is often a hint that you're going to be let go. Rarely is there a "you're being let go today, pack your desk" unless there is cause (the one time I saw it was because someone was using their desktop support credentials to snoop on the CIO's computer - that one they weren't even given the pack your desk) or the company is in trouble (and in which case, things like the WARN period kick in).
playing_colours 6y ago
I guess US fire-at-will system should make contracting even more attractive option for good engineers: you do not get any social protection from being fired at any time unlike say Germany. One solid benefit less to justify pay difference. Is it the case?
- ghaff 6y ago
  Yes and no. First of all, you get benefits as a full-time employee that contractors don't get, like healthcare, disability insurance, and paid time off. (This all mostly boils down to money of course.) Probably more importantly, yes, a company can in general simply tell you your services are no longer needed one morning. However, in reality, absent either company downsizing or a documented performance issue, that is unlikely to happen out of the blue. Whereas not renewing a contract at the end of some project is commonplace. Employee status vs. independent contractors is actually something of a political football at the moment as contractors include both the stereotypical gig economy workers and freelance writers who want to freelance as well as contractors of other sorts.
  - alistairSH 6y ago
    Health-care and other benefits would be priced into any contractor's fees. IE, for a full-time job that paid $100k + benefits, you'd need ~$160k on contract to make up for the additional taxes, self-paid benefits, etc. Looking at peers who struck out on their own, you can make good money as a contractor, but you typically need to be top of your profession and able to command massive fees. And like any business owner, the pressure to always have too much work usually ruins any chance at using the money for longer, more extravagant vacations.
- dghlsakjg 6y ago
  Not quite. If you are let go "without cause", meaning they fire you for no fault of your own, you are entitled to unemployment pay from the government. In my case it was around $800/week for about 4 months while I looked for a new position. It didn't replace my salary, but it was more than enough to pay my bills. Most large US companies also have a policy of not giving references beyond answering if the person worked there for the time claimed in the position claimed. There are a number of benefits to full time employment that good engineers appreciate. Healthcare (in the US), known reliable income (this can be a big factor for financing a house mortgage/car), various other benefits (I get massage credit, dental, vision/glasses, acupuncture, physiotherapy). The biggest for me is just avoiding the stress of feast or famine, managing business/taxes, etc..
dspillett 6y ago
UK here. Terminology may differ, I think what is being discussed is a notice period. Normally a resignation is either accepted or rejected pretty much on the spot and if accepted is officially seen as a more amicable departure. Handing in your notice to leave is something the employer cannot reject. Depending on circumstances you might try to resign first. Sometimes you may be "asked to resign"[0] and made a nice offer to encourage you to do so, offer will almost always have an NDA attached to it. [0] this can be preferable to the company as it can be quieter than sacking you > This guy(gal?) is really required to submit 3 months notice or face some sort of repercussions (financial, I assume)? Yes. The worst they can do is take you to court for breach of contract though. That can be expensive and embarrassing for both parties so unless they are whiter than white[1] or bitter enough companies often don't bother. Potentially a big risk to take though. And in an industry that is hardly free from nepotism, you probably don't want the reputation of being someone who walked that way. Three months is most common in skilled jobs, one month otherwise. In retail work and other low-skilled professions two weeks is not uncommon, though here people often do just walk away as the hassle of chasing them for breach of contract is massively not worth it. [1] i.e. there is nothing you can say on public record that looks bad for them going forward > Does this 3 month period apply in reverse (employer can't fire employees without a full 3 month warning)? Yes. What usually happens if they want to have you gone without notice and don't want to make you an offer to resign "amicably" is that they put you on gardening leave. You are still employed and paid for the notice period but are told to stay home. They can't stop you looking for new work[2] as long as you don't do it "on their time"[3] but you can't start new work without resigning and them accepting that resignation until the end of notice period without the same risks as if you had just walked out without notice yourself[4]. Gardening leave can also happen when you hand in your notice, though if you want to leave and the company wants you to leave then they'll just agree to waive the notice period. [2] Some contracts have clauses that say otherwise, those clauses are not legally enforcible. Some even have clauses saying you have to actively look for new work, these too are not legally enforceable. [3] Which is impossible for them to prove unless perhaps they have you check-in regularly while you garden. [4] Though they are likely accept the resignation as at that point they can stop paying you for the notice period, unless you are going to work for a competitor, or they otherwise feel like being dicks about it.
- 6y ago
fogihujy 6y ago
> This guy(gal?) is really required to submit 3 months notice or face some sort of repercussions (financial, I assume)? In theory, the business could sue an ex-employee who just left for damages caused by the breach of contract, but in the real world it would be pretty much impossible to prove that the damages were caused by the employee leaving. In most cases it's simply considered a dick move, and you'll end up with a hole in your CV as you won't ever get a decent reference if you just get up and leave. > Does this 3 month period apply in reverse (employer can't fire employees without a full 3 month warning)? Usually yes. And unlike the situation above, employees could probably drag the employer to court for it, unless the employee did something illegal or completely irresponsible during working hours.
comeonseriously 6y ago
In the US we have the similar crappy situations. No competes come to mind. Healthcare tied to employment (what if you wanted to start your own business?) is another.
throwaway14337 6y ago
In a previous job it slowly dawned on me that the job was making me quite unhappy. This was about six months in. Only six more months until the "vesting cliff"! I managed to power through and get my stock options for the year. So, while we don't have 3 months notice in the US, we certainly have similar ways to get stuck.
Ekaros 6y ago
For Finland 3 months is bit special, mine is 1 month and previous job was 2 weeks(up to 5 years). From employer side legal minimums are: under 1 year 2 weeks, under 5 years 1 month, under 8 years 2 months, under 8 years 4 months and over 12 years 6 months. Penalty from employee side seems to be monthly wage, so in this case 3 month salary. Ofc, seeing how company is probably doing I wouldn't be too worried of them coming after him...
lbschenkel 6y ago
In a former job, because I was an employee for many years, the notice period the company had to give me was 6 months. My notice period in case I wanted to quit was still 1 month (the legal minimum).

polote 6y ago

> Does this 3 month period apply in reverse Yes (in France at least) it is on both sides, unless both sides agree to shorten it > face some sort of repercussions (financial, I assume)? I'm speaking for France. This is a tricky subject, you almost can't get any repercussion. But it can sucks, like the employer can refuse to fire you and suspend your contract, in the mean time, you are not paid but are not allowed to work for someone else.

CaptainZapp 6y ago

> Does this 3 month period apply in reverse (employer can't fire employees without a full 3 month warning)? Of course. Different notice periods for employers and employees would be outright illegal in most of Europe.

Symbiote 6y ago
It's fairly common to have an X-month notice period to resign, and a 2X or X+1-month period to be made redundant.
detaro 6y ago
> Different notice periods for employers and employees would be outright illegal in most of Europe. AFAIK more common is "lower notice period for employers is illegal".
- CaptainZapp 6y ago
  I stand corrected. See my comment below.
driton 6y ago
I am in the Netherlands, and my current contract stipulates that should they want to get rid of me, the company has to notify me 4 months in advance, whereas should I want to leave, I need to notify them 2 months in advance. Do you have any sources on the legality of different notice periods in Europe?
- Aeolun 6y ago
  I guess it’s more to the extend that the notice period from company to employee cannot be less than employee to company.
- CaptainZapp 6y ago
  The legal situation in Switzerland would (probably) allow for this. What it wouldn't allow is the reverse agreement. I.e. you can be fired in 2 month, but have to give 4 month notice. There are three types of employment laws herearound: - Statutes can be changed freely if both agree - They can be changed only to the employees advantage. For example: minimum vacation days are 20 days. A contract can stipulate 30 days, but not 10, or 15 days - Some statutes cannot be changed at all. I can obviously not speak for all of Europe (plus INAL, etc), but would assume that it's comparable in most of Europe, or even more stringent in terms of employee protection. Employee laws here are quite liberal compared to other European countries.
  - jerven 6y ago
    Adding to this great comment. Switzerland, default rules regarding termination (if I recall correctly). * first month of work, 0 second notice * rest of the first year of work, 1 month notice * second year of work, 2 months notice * years after third, 3 months notice Impossible to terminate: pregnant women, before and also during the legal maternity leave. Common termination is the day upon returning to the office. Personnel called up for the army or civil defence. People on a fixed contract. Employer must give notice but may be without reasons. Without reasons often leads to lawsuits, because terminated will claim one of the illegal (discrimination etc) reasons applies. Still cost of a lawsuit is normally not prohibitive. In case of critical financial issue termination maybe shorter (mass-layoffs).

obedm 6y ago

European here. Having 3 months written in your contract (and in many countries by law, like France) is pretty common. You can still quit if both parties agree. I've done it before. The clause is there to avoid this type of scenario where a key employee just says fuck it and leave. It works both ways. So a company can say fuck it and fire you just because they want to. It's a fantastic system. It can be exploited, but usually works really well for employees and it gives you a huge safety net you can (usually) rely on.

mkl 6y ago
> So a company can say fuck it and fire you "Can't", right? Otherwise it sounds like American at-will employment.
- AnssiH 6y ago
  Right, missing "not". The law mandates that the firing notice period cannot be shorter than the resignation notice period.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
artursapek 6y ago
> The clause is there to avoid this type of scenario where a key employee just says fuck it and leave. If they are at the "fuck it" point, what's going to force them to be useful and productive during the forced 3 month notice period?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- unionpivo 6y ago
  It's not really a fuck it point (usualy). If you reach that you just put in the notice, take whatever vacations you have and then put in sick leave. But 3 months notice is used for, so the company can hire a replacement for you, and you can help train him, and transfer knowledge. A lot of people reading this site work in companies that have huge teams, but most people in IT I know from EU (where I live) are one or two person IT teams. 3 or 4 person team is considered almost medium sized. In such situations you need yo hand of your task responsibly. And that the one thing that will get you burned, if you leave your previous employer hanging.

mingusrude 6y ago

In Sweden (don't know where this company is located) it's usual with collective bargain agreement and if you've been employed for along time (5+ years) it's not uncommon with 3 months notice. It is usually accompanied by 6 months if your employer wants to let you go (but it's not easy if you're the employer to let people go). Most of the time, these periods are negotiated when someone resigns though.

ACS_Solver 6y ago

In my EU-centric worldview, the US system of at-will employment, and of two-week notices as the standard courtesy, is crazy. Three months is the typical notice period for tech workers and other highly-skilled jobs. One month is the legal minimum in Sweden, and certainly several other countries. Of course it goes both ways, in fact it's even more difficult for the employer to get rid of an employee. An employee doesn't need a reason to resign, an employer needs a valid reason to fire an employee, in addition to observing the notice period. To complete the picture, it's necessary to say that probation periods exist. Employees may be initially hired on probation (typical for fresh graduates), which has a shorter notice period, and either side may unilaterally decide not to continue past probation. That is, an employer unhappy with a probation employee doesn't need additional legal grounds to say "we're not proceeding with full employment after the probation period is over".

alistairSH 6y ago
In my EU-centric worldview, the US system of at-will employment, and of two-week notices as the standard courtesy, is crazy. Oh, I agree. But 3 months seems crazy to me. If I have an open position and it isn't filled in ~4-6 weeks, it often gets given to some other team (on the basis that if I really needed that position filled, I'd do so). I can't plan hiring over that timeframe. And when hiring employees in India, we've had them claim a 2-month resignation period, but they just end up using that time to find some other opportunity on the previous employer's time. It's a real mess.
- ACS_Solver 6y ago
  > Oh, I agree. But 3 months seems crazy to me. If I have an open position and it isn't filled in ~4-6 weeks, it often gets given to some other team (on the basis that if I really needed that position filled, I'd do so). I can't plan hiring over that timeframe. If you're in a culture (locality + industry) where a position can be filled in 4 weeks, that's one thing. If you're in a culture where every experienced person has 3 months of notice, then nobody would take your inability to fill a position within weeks to mean that you don't really need it. I have some experience with part-time contracting with US customers. Seeing how quickly people can join or leave there is certainly a culture shock!

numbernine 6y ago

In my country, we have a 3 month notice aswell and yes it does also apply in reverse. You can negociate to lower the period but most of the time the company will decline your request. For high-demand jobs it is a nightmare for everyone.

Symbiote 6y ago

I once had a colleague "go on holiday" and never come back to work. If you don't work your notice period, you obviously won't be paid for it, and any reference will state that you broke your contract. (Unless your employer asks that you don't come into work any more. This is called "gardening leave" in Britain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_leave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_leave , and it's normal in some industries and circumstances.)

Mauricebranagh 6y ago
:-) I once replaced some one (UK) who "disappeared" - apparently he went to NYC

Eremotherium 6y ago

At least in Germany this goes both ways. The period can also be longer depending on your seniority. This is to give the company time to find a proper replacement for you and allow for a smoother handoff. Of course if both parties agree the grace period can be skipped or shortened. You usually don't get stuck with duds because there's a probationary period of (max.) 6 months in the beginning in which these protections are not in place. Also (after the probationary period) the company needs a legal reason to fire you. If they wanna fire you for incompetence oder insubordination they need to have reprimanded you at least once officially, in written form. Only after getting a 2nd reprimand for the SAME THING can they act on it. Meaning if you told the boss to go fuck themselves once and shown up drunk to work once they wouldn't have legal grounds to fire you and if they did you'd drag their ass to labour court and get some kind of compensation.

acjacobson 6y ago
There are certain things that you can outright be fired for - such as stealing, I believe. I think that showing up drunk for work might also be one of them?
- lqet 6y ago
  > I think that showing up drunk for work might also be one of them? Yes. Also if you just refuse to do any work.
- Eremotherium 6y ago
  AFAIK showing up drunk isn't enough but if you fuck up (I think that's the legal term) and say you drop the production DB while drunk that you can be fired immediately.
  - clipradiowallet 6y ago
    IANAL: In the US, doing something destructive [at work] while intoxicated can be "gross negligence", which is criminal if I remember correctly. Example... you show up to work drunk, get in a forklift, and drive through a wall causing damage.

dagw 6y ago

2-3 month notice in both directions is standard in most of Europe.

tadzik_ 6y ago

In Poland it scales over time: you start off with 2 weeks notice (for both sides), after a year or so this jumps to one month, and after 3 years it jumps to 3 months, or something like that. I've seen people quit right before their 3 year anniversary just so that they don't fall into the 3-months-notice period. I haven't worked much on regular job agreements (been contracting or "contracting" most of my life), but generally if you want to quit you go to your boss and say "hey, I wanna quit" and you negotiate when, regardless of the default requirements (which only come into play if either side doesn't agree). There's no business in keeping an unproductive employee around for 3 months.

K2L8M11N2 6y ago
What do you mean by “contracting” in quotes?
- sedeki 6y ago
  "Tax minimization" or worse, I suppose.
- megous 6y ago
  When you're mostly indistinguishable from an employee, except for the legal relationship.

2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago

I'm looking to leave my current job but if voluntarily leave in my first year I have to surrender my signing bonus. It's certainly a crushing feeling to be chained to a job. Even worse are these stupid 2 weeks or unimaginable 3 months notice. As everyone says- you'll never get notice you're being fired. It'll be quick like a mob hit.

Aeolun 6y ago
> you'll never get notice you're being fired In Europe you will. Or you’ll be sent home with the respective 3 months in salary anyway, but generally you work your 3 months. To be fair, I’ve never seen a notice period longer than a month.
shagie 6y ago
For many positions, the person isn't a positively contributing member for three to six months. A positive ROI on the expense of hiring them isn't realized until much later. Having signing and relocation bonuses be paid back if the person doesn't stay for a year is quite reasonable in that context. "We didn't pay for your relocation to X just so that you could change jobs after a few months." Two weeks notice is a courtesy. The much maligned PIP is often a hint that you're going to be let go. Rarely is there a "you're being let go today, pack your desk" unless there is cause (the one time I saw it was because someone was using their desktop support credentials to snoop on the CIO's computer - that one they weren't even given the pack your desk) or the company is in trouble (and in which case, things like the WARN period kick in).

playing_colours 6y ago

I guess US fire-at-will system should make contracting even more attractive option for good engineers: you do not get any social protection from being fired at any time unlike say Germany. One solid benefit less to justify pay difference. Is it the case?

ghaff 6y ago
Yes and no. First of all, you get benefits as a full-time employee that contractors don't get, like healthcare, disability insurance, and paid time off. (This all mostly boils down to money of course.) Probably more importantly, yes, a company can in general simply tell you your services are no longer needed one morning. However, in reality, absent either company downsizing or a documented performance issue, that is unlikely to happen out of the blue. Whereas not renewing a contract at the end of some project is commonplace. Employee status vs. independent contractors is actually something of a political football at the moment as contractors include both the stereotypical gig economy workers and freelance writers who want to freelance as well as contractors of other sorts.
- alistairSH 6y ago
  Health-care and other benefits would be priced into any contractor's fees. IE, for a full-time job that paid $100k + benefits, you'd need ~$160k on contract to make up for the additional taxes, self-paid benefits, etc. Looking at peers who struck out on their own, you can make good money as a contractor, but you typically need to be top of your profession and able to command massive fees. And like any business owner, the pressure to always have too much work usually ruins any chance at using the money for longer, more extravagant vacations.
dghlsakjg 6y ago
Not quite. If you are let go "without cause", meaning they fire you for no fault of your own, you are entitled to unemployment pay from the government. In my case it was around $800/week for about 4 months while I looked for a new position. It didn't replace my salary, but it was more than enough to pay my bills. Most large US companies also have a policy of not giving references beyond answering if the person worked there for the time claimed in the position claimed. There are a number of benefits to full time employment that good engineers appreciate. Healthcare (in the US), known reliable income (this can be a big factor for financing a house mortgage/car), various other benefits (I get massage credit, dental, vision/glasses, acupuncture, physiotherapy). The biggest for me is just avoiding the stress of feast or famine, managing business/taxes, etc..

dspillett 6y ago

UK here. Terminology may differ, I think what is being discussed is a notice period. Normally a resignation is either accepted or rejected pretty much on the spot and if accepted is officially seen as a more amicable departure. Handing in your notice to leave is something the employer cannot reject. Depending on circumstances you might try to resign first. Sometimes you may be "asked to resign"[0] and made a nice offer to encourage you to do so, offer will almost always have an NDA attached to it. [0] this can be preferable to the company as it can be quieter than sacking you > This guy(gal?) is really required to submit 3 months notice or face some sort of repercussions (financial, I assume)? Yes. The worst they can do is take you to court for breach of contract though. That can be expensive and embarrassing for both parties so unless they are whiter than white[1] or bitter enough companies often don't bother. Potentially a big risk to take though. And in an industry that is hardly free from nepotism, you probably don't want the reputation of being someone who walked that way. Three months is most common in skilled jobs, one month otherwise. In retail work and other low-skilled professions two weeks is not uncommon, though here people often do just walk away as the hassle of chasing them for breach of contract is massively not worth it. [1] i.e. there is nothing you can say on public record that looks bad for them going forward > Does this 3 month period apply in reverse (employer can't fire employees without a full 3 month warning)? Yes. What usually happens if they want to have you gone without notice and don't want to make you an offer to resign "amicably" is that they put you on gardening leave. You are still employed and paid for the notice period but are told to stay home. They can't stop you looking for new work[2] as long as you don't do it "on their time"[3] but you can't start new work without resigning and them accepting that resignation until the end of notice period without the same risks as if you had just walked out without notice yourself[4]. Gardening leave can also happen when you hand in your notice, though if you want to leave and the company wants you to leave then they'll just agree to waive the notice period. [2] Some contracts have clauses that say otherwise, those clauses are not legally enforcible. Some even have clauses saying you have to actively look for new work, these too are not legally enforceable. [3] Which is impossible for them to prove unless perhaps they have you check-in regularly while you garden. [4] Though they are likely accept the resignation as at that point they can stop paying you for the notice period, unless you are going to work for a competitor, or they otherwise feel like being dicks about it.

6y ago

fogihujy 6y ago

> This guy(gal?) is really required to submit 3 months notice or face some sort of repercussions (financial, I assume)? In theory, the business could sue an ex-employee who just left for damages caused by the breach of contract, but in the real world it would be pretty much impossible to prove that the damages were caused by the employee leaving. In most cases it's simply considered a dick move, and you'll end up with a hole in your CV as you won't ever get a decent reference if you just get up and leave. > Does this 3 month period apply in reverse (employer can't fire employees without a full 3 month warning)? Usually yes. And unlike the situation above, employees could probably drag the employer to court for it, unless the employee did something illegal or completely irresponsible during working hours.

comeonseriously 6y ago

In the US we have the similar crappy situations. No competes come to mind. Healthcare tied to employment (what if you wanted to start your own business?) is another.

throwaway14337 6y ago

In a previous job it slowly dawned on me that the job was making me quite unhappy. This was about six months in. Only six more months until the "vesting cliff"! I managed to power through and get my stock options for the year. So, while we don't have 3 months notice in the US, we certainly have similar ways to get stuck.

Ekaros 6y ago

For Finland 3 months is bit special, mine is 1 month and previous job was 2 weeks(up to 5 years). From employer side legal minimums are: under 1 year 2 weeks, under 5 years 1 month, under 8 years 2 months, under 8 years 4 months and over 12 years 6 months. Penalty from employee side seems to be monthly wage, so in this case 3 month salary. Ofc, seeing how company is probably doing I wouldn't be too worried of them coming after him...

lbschenkel 6y ago

In a former job, because I was an employee for many years, the notice period the company had to give me was 6 months. My notice period in case I wanted to quit was still 1 month (the legal minimum).