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Refund of pre-installed Windows: Lenovo must pay 20k euros in damages
- amelius 6y agoIf only this applied to Apple hardware and Apple OSes too.
- easton 6y agoMicrosoft put it in their EULA, Apple did not (Microsoft says you can return it for a refund, Apple doesn’t and gives their OS away for free anyway so even if there was a legal requirement it wouldn’t work).
- chme 6y agoAre you sure that it is actually the EULA of Microsoft Windows that provides the basis for this decisions on court? The post make is more seems like it would be general consumer protection laws. Because if its based on general consumer protection laws, then how would that translate to choosing your own operating systems on smartphones, smartwatches, gaming consoles and the like?
- seba_dos1 6y agoIt should translate directly. Personally I only buy gaming consoles that can be jailbroken, smartphones that you can install any GNU/Linux distro on etc. and I refuse to treat them any other way I'd treat a PC. That said, there are way more people not wanting Windows on their laptops than people who do what I do, and look how the issue of refunds over pre-installed Windows is still newsworthy now in 2021.
- 0110101001 6y agoThe EULA says: > If you do not accept and comply with these terms, you may not use the software or its features. You may contact the device manufacturer or installer, or your retailer if you purchased the software directly, to determine its return policy and return the software or device for a refund or credit under that policy. You must comply with that policy, which might require you to return the software with the entire device on which the software is installed for a refund or credit, if any. And the article says: > Finally, in December 2020, the Court of Monza rejected all Lenovo's arguments, confirming that the right to reimbursement of the pre-installed software was due. The sentence pointed out that the manufacturer itself had expressly assumed this obligation in the Windows licence.
- andrewnicolalde 6y ago> You must comply with that policy, which might require you to return the software with the entire device on which the software is installed for a refund or credit, if any. I wonder what they mean by "device." Device as in the hard drive or device as in the entire computer? Surely having to return the entire computer defeats the point of Windows' refund policy?
- easton 6y agoDevice means computer, what that means is either “return the computer or the OEM license to the manufacturer for a refund”, which is to say that you get all of your money back if the computer is returned, not just the hardware cost.
- gowld 6y agoThat decision is completely unsupported by the quoted EULA text.
- amelius 6y agoSelling things below cost price is not legal everywhere (it is often called predatory pricing, undercutting, price slashing, etc.). Now, I'm not a lawyer but I'm guessing that giving away something for free isn't always legal either, especially if giving it away is of interest to your business.
- jacquesm 6y ago> Apple doesn’t and gives their OS away for free anyway At the price of their hardware that isn't a surprise. Essentially it is just another bundle, and upgrades do not eat into the sales of new hardware.
- raverbashing 6y agoIt would be harder to argue since Apple does not license it separately from the hardware, and does not even charge for the upgrades anymore. They could probably just say "it's free for buyers of Apple hardware".
- me1337 6y agoIn apple's case its different, software is bundled "free" when you buy apple's hardware. Lenovo Doesn't make software and forces you to pay for Windows.
- gowld 6y agoLenovo has a bulk agreement with the software provider. It's the same as how Apple OS and Hardware divisions collaborate.
- Toutouxc 6y agoIf what applied? They don't sell DIY kits, they sell products. You're free to erase macOS and hack Linux into your MacBook all day, but why should anyone get a refund for this? Do I get a refund if I want to hack my smart TV? The nav system in the car?
- pmx 6y agoApple's return policies on their hardware are more than reasonable. You have 14 days to return an item (even if it's been used) and you don't need to justify it, you can simply say you don't like it. They don't charge for the OS seperately either so that argument makes no sense.
- azangru 6y agoLenovo is weird. On the one hand, it announces that it will pre-install Linux on ThinkPads. On the other hand, these configurations seem to be available only in selected countries. Also, this. P.S.: there's an entertaining segment by ThePrimeagen in which he talks about his frustrating experience of ordering an X1 Carbon Extreme from Lenovo: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/909927791?t=00h32m16s https://www.twitch.tv/videos/909927791?t=00h32m16s
- tomxor 6y agoThat's what I was thinking. Perhaps this shows just how disjointed Lenovo is as a company - there must be two very independent departments that know nothing of the others motivations.
- smoldesu 6y agoI've also seen this rift, it was particularly confusing through the last 10 years to see Lenovo's lower end products being such dogshit, while their higher-end offerings were the best in the business. It seems like they're addressing this though, as some of their newer budget products are surprisingly robust. I recently picked up a new Ideapad for $400, and it felt much more robust than anything else I've ever used in the sub-$500 category. Same goes for the Duet, a $250 Chromebook with build quality that betrays it's lower-end hardware configuration. Modern Thinkpads seem to be making a bit of a comeback too, which I'm certainly happy to see.
- sodality2 6y ago>I recently picked up a new Ideapad for $400, and it felt much more robust than anything else I've ever used in the sub-$500 category Model?
- smoldesu 6y agohttps://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-IdeaPad-Slim-7-14ARE05-Ryzen-7-4800U.493253.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-IdeaPad-Slim-7-14ARE05-... This bad boy was on clearance at a nearby Best Buy. Pretty nice comeup for the specs, and it's given me a new appreciation for Lenovo's consumer product build quality.
- raverbashing 6y agoProps to the Lenovo IT legal department who challenged a legal decision that would have cost them 200EUR. Sure it might have encouraged more people to ask for a refund, still cheaper than what they have to pay now.
- ekianjo 6y ago20k euros is still a drop in the ocean. It wont even register.
- m463 6y agoOEMs make significant money pre-installing windows on their machines. A friend who worked at one OEM said it would cost $50 more to ship a machine with linux vs windows. Pre-installing windows, bundling software (including telemetry - long history of this) makes Lenovo money at the time of sale, and afterwards. Good job (and good fun) to this tenacious person. Glad for the outcome in his (and our) favor.
- Hamuko 6y ago>Pre-installing windows, bundling software (including telemetry - long history of this) makes Lenovo money at the time of sale, and afterwards. I'd use "spyware" instead of "telemetry" considering the shit Lenovo has done. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/02/further-evidence-lenovo-breaking-https-security-its-laptops https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/02/further-evidence-lenov...
- pydry 6y agoWow that's a whole new level of evil.
- WarOnPrivacy 6y agoDang. Six years since Superfish fiasco. I must have been in stasis for some of that.
- LilBytes 6y agoCertainly feels that way.
- eecc 6y agoWould you trust a preinstalled Ubuntu image from Lenovo more than a Windows one?
- forgotmypw17 6y agoThanks for the laugh, I needed it
- rafaelturk 6y agoIf we all acted like Mr. Luca software industry and the internet would be much better. Clearly it was never about the 42 Euro license, it was about the principles. As always companies like Lenovo only act like this way because we passively allow them to do so.
- statstutor 6y ago> As always companies like Lenovo only act like this way because we passively allow them to do so. Also because their total penalty for this behaviour, three years of legal time-wasting to avoid their responsibilities, is $20,000.
- villgax 6y agoSo many users end up losing their OEM activation after having to re-install windows from torrented ISO's without access to actual keys.
- tom_mellior 6y agoI don't know about Lenovo, but my Dell machines have their OEM Windows keys stored in the BIOS. You can wipe Windows and reinstall it at any point with that key.
- ocdtrekkie 6y agoThis is silly and inaccurate since at least 2012. OEM Windows keys are stored in the BIOS and can be activated without knowing the key. Also, you do not have to torrent Windows ISOs, they're freely available from Microsoft via the Media Creation Tool.
- trulyme 6y ago...not to mention that downloading an OS from some unknown torrent doesn't sound like a good idea.
- kkielhofner 6y agoIn addition to the other comments, product licenses from purchased copies of Windows (like a digital download/upgrade of Windows 10 Pro) are stored in your Microsoft account. Whatever means you use to reinstall even if it's a custom built machine without a Windows key in the BIOS you login to your Microsoft account and the license/activation "just works". Loooooong gone are the days of typing in license keys or calling Microsoft on the phone if there is a problem activating/re-activating.
- brnt 6y ago_If_ you fancy identifying yourself to Microsoft and hooking up the copious telemetry they gather to you identity that is.
- mixologic 6y ago"It should go without saying that everyone should be able to freely choose the operating system to run on their personal computers" I think this is an antiquated idea that presupposes that the definition of the product you are buying from a company is a "general purpose computing device". The overwhelming majority of users of devices just want the value that a product maker offers. We're now completely surrounded by devices that offer no such freedoms, and we're completely reliant on networked services where we also have no choice in the matter. Should I be able to sue google for including chrome os on chromebooks? Apple for preinstalling osx? Android? Ios? What about the os for my cars' display, or my smart tv? This feels like trying to force a company to offer a product that somebody wishes they offered.
- amelius 6y ago> The overwhelming majority of users of devices just want the value that a product maker offers. Yes, because they don't know any better. If all users knew how vendor lock-in affected the entire OX (ownership experience) in all its aspects, then perhaps they would choose differently.
- randrews 6y agoWhen did we become okay with people selling something other than a general-purpose computer and calling it a "computer?"
- rootusrootus 6y agoWhen we let regular people buy computers. Only enthusiasts want computers they tinker around with, the vast majority of consumers just want it to work. They won't be installing alternative operating systems, they want to push a button and get to work/play/etc.
- randrews 6y agoThen call it a phone, or a console, or something. Words have meanings and if you sell something as a "computer" then the buyer can expect to be able to do general-purpose computation on it.
- ricardobayes 6y agoI was in the same shoes once with a tiny 11" lenovo ideapad, which didn't have enough storage space for windows updates anymore, even with everything uninstalled. I tried to install Linux, but was unable to.
- robocat 6y agoFYI in the same position, the solution I found was to download the Windows Install ISO, put it onto USB, and boot from that and do a clean Windows install. I needed a special dongle too for the device. A clean install uses less disk space, and it removes accumulated cruft that you can’t otherwise delete easily. I think minor updates worked after that for a while.
- toyg 6y agoMan, Italian tribunals already have enough of a backlog with all sorts of shit, Lenovo deserve the scorn for trying to abuse the process.
- matheusmoreira 6y ago> Lenovo deserve the scorn for trying to abuse the process This should happen more often. Especially if it's a big company trying to leverage the legal system to bully individuals or drive competitors out of business.
- mrtweetyhack 6y ago20k is not nearly enough. try 2M
- Black101 6y agolol, 20k... might as well been nothing
- scraptor 6y agoIf this sets a precedent it's enough to make it worth consumer's time to sue, which prevents lenovo (or others) from pulling such stunts in the future as they know they will actually get sued.
- effingwewt 6y agoMan this makes me want to move to Italy. Someone start a country with free healthcare and consumer protections, you can tax me what you want. I just want to live in a society where everyone is taken care of, not where businesses make the laws.
- brokenmachine 6y agoI don't know a hell of a lot about Italy, but I don't think it's the utopia you're imagining.
- fmntf 6y agoItalian here. Upvoted you :(
- sdfhbdf 6y agoTry Scandinavia. E.g. Finland or Denmark
- paddim8 6y agoThe Nordic* Finland isn't Scandinavian. But yes, that's what it's like here.
- cptskippy 6y ago> We all know how frustrating it is to buy a brand new computer and realise that it comes with a pre-installed proprietary operating system. It's hard to take this seriously.
- xpressvideoz 6y agoIt can be frustrating, because that means you were unable to save tens of bucks by piracying Windows. At least that's what I have seen why some people prefer computers with FreeDOS.
- MayeulC 6y agoIt depends who the "we" refers to. For readers & editors of the fse blog, I think it makes sense.
- f1refly 6y agoI think theres more than enough people who don't even boot the thing before wiping the drive and putting debian on it, especially among the readers of that blog.
- gerdesj 6y ago"The court also noted that this case is an example of the arrogance and prevarication of a giant company against a modest consumer. In the end, the court ruled that the sum was to be paid to Luca, by way of compensating for the damage caused by aggravated procedural liability." That sounds dangerously like common sense. I'm not familiar with Italian law but that judgment looks pretty decent and runs along fairness style grounds and it would have been made after consideration. If IT law is precedent based that may be quite a powerful result.
- de6u99er 6y agoLet's not forget how well connected Microsoft is. People love to use their clickable UI tools, compared to editing config files. In RHE/CentOS it was possible to store all settings made during installation and reuse the file for future automated installations. (I think it was called kickstart file).
- sdfhbdf 6y ago> if IT Law is precedent Common law as this system is referred to is specific to former British Empire colonies. So it never applies to continental Europe. [0] [0]: https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_law https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_law
- MayeulC 6y agoIt at least sets a precedent for Lenovo, and will probably dissuade them from appealing, at least in Italy. It might even make it easier to get a refund. The precedent here is making it not economical for Lenovo to engage in a lengthy litigation process. Such tactics are generally employed against consumers, to dissuade them from suing. It's nice to see it backfiring, and indicative of a healthy court system, IMO.
- atum47 6y agoOh boy, everytime I have to buy a notebook and it comes with windows... What a drag. I must have at least 3 windows keys (that I save before wiping) laying around somewhere. Imagine if they would to refund me. The worst part, at least for me, is that is becoming harder and harder to install linux with this new notebooks. Mine didn't come with lan port, and Debian didn't recognize the wifi and gpu, because both are proprietary. So, I would have to spend 4 hours at least working around everything. Sad
- Toutouxc 6y agoI don't get it -- did he sue Lenovo because Lenovo didn't honor the part from Windows' EULA that the user is free to reject it and refund the OS? Or did he sue just because he bought the wrong product and didn't like some part of it?
- PotatoBoi 6y agothe first one
- blaze33 6y agoOn the other hand I had the pleasure to have the opposite experience with Dell almost 10 years ago: called to ask for a refund of the Windows license after buying the laptop and was quickly refunded ~140€ for Windows and all pre-installed software, no questions asked. Funny how customer experiences can be so wildly different...