17 ms·

The Waste of Daylight

73 points by Hooke 6y ago

shmerl 6y ago
> The country follows the same DST schedule as most of Europe, setting the clocks forward one hour on the last Sunday in March and back again one hour on the last Sunday in October. Didn't EU plan to cancel DST? It's long overdue to cancel this erratic switch everywhere.
- kshacker 6y ago
  EU and US: They have both been talking about it in spurts, and they do wake up every ~6 months when the time changes, but no serious action anywhere.
  - deathanatos 6y ago
    The US has been talking about making DST permanent, which is very different from cancelling it.
    - shmerl 6y ago
      As long as the switch itself is dropped. Which one to drop is probably moot and benefits could depend on the region. It's easier to adjust local schedule than to switch the clock back and forth.
      - chrishas35 6y ago
        Split the difference and let’s move on.
        Thorrez 6y ago
        I would prefer to not live in a timezone with a half hour offset from UTC (which do exist, in fact 15 minute offsets exist).
        strbean 6y ago
        My favorite timezone absurdity is timezones with an offset > 12 hours.
        Zacru 6y ago
        I often need to covert timestamps to and from UTC. I sure hope I don't end up in a -6:30 timezone.
    - riffic 6y ago
      the clock is effectively a human construct. It would make little difference one way or another if there was no twice-a-year time change. You can not change the number of hours a point on the earth receives daylight over a 24 hour period, and you can not change the fact that axial tilt means the amount of time you do receive daylight changes over the course of the year.
      - strbean 6y ago
        Can we short-circuit all this BS and just eliminate timezones completely? It'll take a week to get used to thinking in UTC, and then we can forget the nightmare of timezones forever.
        K2L8M11N2 6y ago
        https://qntm.org/abolish https://qntm.org/abolish
        iggldiggl 6y ago
        Unless you happen to be part of the privileged part of the world living nearish the meridian, good luck to having the calendar date changing in the middle of your waking hours and all the confusion that that would entail. For the unlucky rest of the world it also means that things like public holidays and suchlike either weirdly start and end in the middle of the (solar) day, or alternatively you'd have to specify that all holidays etc. actually start and end not at midnight (UTC), but whatever time actually corresponds to some time in the middle of night, which basically means reintroducing time zones through the back door. Also the link K2L8M11N2 posted.
    - kshacker 6y ago
      The 'difference' is action vs inaction. I do not know what the consensus is, but we see this drama every 6 months. If they just said 'we are not going to do it', it would be one thing, but we have been having this charade for a while now. I know some charade is required to build consensus, but based on my reading of the news, there is just too much chatter, and we all get riled up every time we change clocks.
- gweinberg 6y ago
  How about this: we get rid of the time change, but have schools start an hour earlier march through october than november through february. Change the eraly bird parking hours at bart similarly.
  - shmerl 6y ago
    I'd say yes, adjust local schedule to your needs instead of adjusting the clock to some schedule.
  - Thorrez 6y ago
    Adjusting your entire schedule (commute, job, child care, school, bedtime, alarm time, meal times) twice a year is much much more disruptive than changing your clocks twice a year.
    - shmerl 6y ago
      I'd say the opposite. Adjusting the clock is more disruptive, because your schedule shifts anyway in relation to astronomical cycles. But besides that you also mess up the clock. So it's better to leave the clock alone and to adjust your schedule if you need to.
      - Thorrez 6y ago
        >schedule shifts anyway in relation to astronomical cycles That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about calling into work saying you need a schedule change to work around your kid's new school schedule. Calling your daycare provider to setup a new schedule. If you take public transport, finding how the timetables will work with your new schedule. If you plan doctor's appointments in the future, you now need to take into account time of year to know when your and your kid's availabilities are. None of that happens when everyone changes their clocks. When you mess up the clock currently no schedules need to change (except the people who are working at 2am, which is not very many).
        shmerl 6y ago
- CannisterFlux 6y ago
  Yeah, 2021 was planned to be the last time that clocks would be put forwards in March in Europe. Countries would then stay on Summer Time in October if that was their preference, not putting the clocks back. If a country had planned to stay on Winter Time they would put clocks back for the last time in October 2021. From then on no changes would be made in March/October. Shame it's not happening now. Due to the pandemic the negotiations were not completed, so we'll still be doing the DST shuffle this year and again in 2022 at least. There's a danger this will fall off the political map and for Europe to continue the DST changes forever. There are several members that are against removing the clock changes too, others who cannot decide if summer or winter time is better (so may want to keep the status quo, rather than make a choice that half of the population won't like) so it isn't clear-cut.
- _ph_ 6y ago
  Yes, the EU parliament passed a resolution to end DST 2021. Unfortunately, they didn't mandate a return to standard time along with it, leaving it open for countries to stay on permanent DST. But of course, a decision about this was never made - looking at the EU timezones, permanent DST basically has no place in the schema. The only non-chaotic alternative to DST would be standard time, but no such resolution has been made. Of course, Corona has made all of this even less of a priority. In this situation, the EU is doing something unexpected practical: ignore that resolution so far :)
  - iso1631 6y ago
    > Unfortunately, they didn't mandate a return to standard time along with it It's arbitary anyway -- Spain and North Macedonia are on the same time zone, but in A Coruña in winter the sun rises at 9am, while in Bitola it comes up at 7am, despite being on about the same latitude. What makes "standard time" standard? Sun at the highest between 1130 and 1230? Timezones have a rough connection to solar mean, but on standard time the middle of the day in Brest is at 1326, in Białystok it's 1136.
    - tbihl 6y ago
      Spain is well lined up on the 0 meridian, but is on continental time. It should surprise no one that odd times result. China is on a single time zone, IIRC. Imagine if SF shifted clocks forward 3 hours just because that's what Washington does.
      - kwhitefoot 6y ago
        And this means that evenings in Spain are gloriously long.
        _ph_ 6y ago
        Well, only to an extend, as of course a lot of things just happen later in Spain to compensate the offset of the time zone compared to the sun.
    - 6y ago
ogre_codes 6y ago
I try to keep my sleep schedule so I wake up shortly after daybreak for exactly this reason. I love natural light and loath sleeping through it. I've considered writing an app that sets an alarm to sunset and a reminder 9 hours prior to sunset so I can always wake with the sun and have plenty of sleep. Should be pretty simple I just haven't gotten around to it. (Though personally, I'd prefer it were a personal choice and not the random, sleep disrupting change that DST ends up being)
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  I was gifted some Philips Hue lights a few years ago. I set one up on my nightstand to turn on at sunrise (actually earlier in the winter, sunrise is the latest I want it set to). It's a much more pleasant way to wake up (with it fading in over 10 minutes or so) than an actual alarm clock. Of course, it can't travel with you but it's not a bad option for the home.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    I actually do something very similar. The light doesn't fade in, but I have some strip lighting which turns on before my alarm. It's a great way to get moving in the morning without a jarring alarm.
  - watt 6y ago
    Philips also sells an actual wake-up light alarm clock(s) (such as HF3519/01 ). They have smaller models too which probably would be OK to pack for travel.
  - 8fingerlouie 6y ago
    Scandinavian here, i'll pass :) Most of June the sun rises from 4:30 to 4:50, and it's not until late august it rises around 6am again. Sunset is between 9pm and 10pm, civil twilight lasts until 3:42am, and the sun never goes below 12 degrees. From November to February it doesn't rise until 8am. (and sets around 4pm, astronomical twilight around 6pm) We have a large roof window that allows morning sunlight to enter our bedroom, and while my brain/body would probably benefit from following the natural daylight cycle, it has the shutters closed for most of the summer.
echelon 6y ago
For those that want to make a permanent change, let's stop talking about "DST". That's too confusing for a lot of people, and results in many favoring the wrong outcome. We should instead ask people if they want "summertime" or "wintertime" sunrise and sunset. Wintertime proponents use the animosity against the time change to argue against DST, but they seldom mention this means an earlier sunset. This comes down to whether you want to enjoy your time before work or after work. Early risers might prefer early sunrise, but business and leisure activities after work benefit from a later sunset.
- chrishas35 6y ago
  And there is a compromise to be had here... a one-time 30 minute change, and we’re done. There is strong consensus to eliminate the time change, but which time to choose as permanent seems quite divided. Compromise and let’s move on.
  - gweinberg 6y ago
    There absolutely is not. Most people agree that extra sunlight in the afternoon is more useful than in the morning.
    - TheCoelacanth 6y ago
      Polling doesn't back up your opinion[1]. 40% preferred extra sunlight in the morning year-round, 31% preferred it in the evening year-round and 28% preferred switching. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/14/politics/daylight-saving-time-analysis/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/14/politics/daylight-saving-time...
      - dahart 6y ago
        Except there is no year-round extra sunlight for most people in the US, at least if the workday is entirely during sunlight hours. The only time we get to choose when we want our extra sunlight is in the summer. I used to want to abolish the time change, until I looked at the year long plot of sunrise and sunset time, and realized what happens without DST and switching. I changed my mind, because I discovered I like the outcome and I don’t actually want the alternative. https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/san-francisco https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/san-francisco
eucryphia 6y ago
City people could just get up an hour earlier in summer.
- Thorrez 6y ago
  Are you suggesting we eliminate (go permanent standard time) and have people change their alarms 1 hour earlier in the summer? Does that mean you also go to bed 1 hour earlier in the summer? If you go to bed earlier, you have less evening time to enjoy. Also adjusting your entire schedule (your alarm, your bedtime) twice a year would be very disruptive.
  - Rule35 6y ago
    > Also adjusting your entire schedule (your alarm, your bedtime) twice a year would be very disruptive. Yes, it is. I'm glad you agree. > Are you suggesting we eliminate (go permanent standard time) and have people change their alarms 1 hour earlier in the summer? Voluntarily. If they like mornings, yes. If they like evenings, then no.
    - Thorrez 6y ago
      >Yes, it is. I'm glad you agree. I think we actually disagree. We're using different definitions of "adjusting". I'm using it as in change from getting up at 7am instead of 8am. This is very disruptive because you have to reschedule your work shifts, your kid's school time, your commute (e.g public transport), your kid's daycare, doctor's appointments, bedtime, TV watching schedule, evening activities, etc. If you and everyone else shift everything, then no one needs to contact each other to figure out how the rescheduling will work out. It all happens without requiring any communication. If x people interact with each other, then personal shifts might require x^2 interactions to try to figure out their new schedules. If it's set by the government, it requires 0 interactions.
  - globular-toast 6y ago
    You've just described exactly what DST is.
lisper 6y ago
> Critics however claim that if adopted all year round, this would result in darker winter mornings which would be more dangerous for children going to school This drives me bananas. If you're worried about this, the right answer is not to force everyone to change their clocks, it's to change the school schedule to start an hour later.
- Pxtl 6y ago
  Besides that, this hypothetical can be tested. Saskatoon is far north, and they do not do DST timechange. Meanwhile, Red Deer Alberta is a similar climate and latitude, but does DST. So if people are concerned, winter morning accident rates in Saskatchewan could be compared.
- tptacek 6y ago
  The opposing case is stronger: you can't just change the school schedule, because school is part of the fabric of child care; change its schedule, and you change the schedules of parents, which means now you have a coordination problem. That problem ripples, so that by the time you've really addressed it, you've essentially recapitulated daylight savings time. Accidents aside, there's a lot to be said for not having the first 45 minutes of the school day take place in the dark in places like western Michigan, or for having sunrise occur 3-4 hours before people normally wake up in the summer. Josh Barro is fond of pointing out that this --- eliminating DST --- was tried in the early 1970s, and the 2-year experiment was so universally reviled in practice that it was repealed almost unanimously in Congress just 9 months later.
  - chillwaves 6y ago
    Let the children start later. Let the parents start later and have a shorter work day. Problem solved.
    - tptacek 6y ago
      A huge fraction of the US workforce, spread throughout every industry, consists of parents. It sounds easy to say "let the parents start later", but it's a massive coordination problem. It makes more sense if you assume the whole workforce works the way it does for most of us on HN, but in most jobs, you actually have to show up on time; if you can't, someone else has to be scheduled to account for your missing hour. The only way I think you can make DST abolition make sense is if you say "well, I guess kids are going to be at school in the dark at 9AM in a bunch of places around the country". That's a coherent argument! But "parents and workplaces will just figure it out" is, I think, not.
hourislate 6y ago
I would vote for any Presidential Candidate and House Representative regardless of party on the promise of leaving the clocks on DST all year around. That's all they would have to do to get my vote....nothing else.
- User23 6y ago
  This actually happened in the ‘70s and it sucked so hard it got repealed in less than a year[1]. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/us-tried-year-round-daylight-saving-time-people-hated-it-2021-3?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/us-tried-year-round-daylight...
  - hourislate 6y ago
    That article was funny. Business owners complaining they have to open up in the predawn? How does SBUX do it? The one down the street opens at 5 am. Construction men working in the dark for an hour? What do they want bankers hours? And schools having to open 30 minutes later, Imagine we give the kids 30 more minutes of sleep in the am. These days they are like factory workers waking up at 6 am to ride the bus and get to school for 8 am. Crazy..... Changing the clock back and forth is unhealthy for everyone. We need to standardize on one time for our sanity and health. I use to prefer Standard time but now prefer DST, I don't know it just agrees with me more now that I am older. Lets try it again and see if anyone complains....
    - swiley 6y ago
      I never had to deal with any of this because I was homeschooled but every time I hear about the way public schooled kids are treated it sounds like abuse.
    - derefr 6y ago
      > Construction men working in the dark for an hour? What do they want, bankers hours? Presumably, they want their schedule moved around so they can see what they're doing. There's no reason that the clock itself needs to change for that, though. Just unions forcing employers into a "9-5 in summer, 10-6 in winter" schedule would work fine.
exmadscientist 6y ago
Interestingly, the caption on the sundial is wrong! It seems the caption writer misread "IX" upside-down as "XI"; the sundial actually runs from 3am to 9pm (0300 to 2100), not 3am to 11pm (0300 to 2300) as claimed.
kleiba 6y ago
I suppose opponents of DST don't enjoy long summer evenings out on the porch. And they never travel out of their own time zone either.
bloak 6y ago
As I see it, in the summer there's plenty of daylight so it doesn't matter very much how you set your clock, but in the winter it does matter: children would be cycling to school in the dark if you moved the clocks forward (and they'd be cycling back from school in the dark if you moved the clocks back). Therefore, if you want to abolish the clock changes, which seems like an excellent idea to me, the safe and conservative way to do that is to use today's winter time all year round.
- gburnett 6y ago
  A change to GMT all year round would be most welcome here in the U.K.
- richrichardsson 6y ago
  > the safe and conservative way to do that is to use today's winter time all year round What are the points that lead you to this conclusion? Personally I'd prefer if DST was abolished by staying on Summer Time permanently, as I dislike the lack of light in the evening, and couldn't care less about the dark mornings, but mine is a purely selfish reasoning.
  - eru 6y ago
    Just get up earlier? Moving around what we call the hours of the day doesn't change anything real.
    - TuringTest 6y ago
      Unfortunately, business have a habit of maintaining the same opening schedules all year long, which means they open earlier in summer and later in winter (relative to the sun). You don't change the sun, but changing own habits relative to the clock is not an option for the majority of people - so if the clock changes, society follows.
      - da_big_ghey 6y ago
        This is why we want normal time not daylight delay. This solution wake up and have about two hours to eat breakfast, get dressed, etc. before day starts with earnest.
rjmunro 6y ago
Moving around what we call the hours of the day is a really stupid way to change habits. Why not do this for other unit's of measurement? People travel at 70mph on highways, have accidents and die. Lets make 1 mile only 1200m instead of 1600m, now when the speed limit is 70mph, people will really be travelling at 84kph instead of 112kph, so less will die. It's utterly absurd. Just post a 50mph limit. If you want people to start the day earlier at certain times of year, you just legislate that things start earlier at a certain time of year. For example schools and shops should be obliged to change their opening hours on that day.
- thepete2 6y ago
  Exactly. The right way to go about it would be changing standard business hours (and school, etc.) twice a year.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
  How do you legislate that things happen an hour earlier when you don’t legislate when they happen in the first place?
  - samus 6y ago
    For stuff that you really care about, you pass regulations that public institutions have to follow. This takes care of stuff like school hours, counter opening times, mass transport time tables and the like. The rest of society either adapts or doesn't care. Some businesses, especially if they are outdoors-related, already have different opening hours in summer and winter. It really doesn't have to be legislated on a large scale.
- asoneth 6y ago
  Coordinating a mass schedule change at a specific point in time is just a different method of implementing daylight-savings time. Between the two, changing wall clocks seems like the simpler of the two options, but either is fine.
  - lostapathy 6y ago
mrfusion 6y ago
I support full time DST but ... Isn’t it weird to think That the Vast majority Of people are so powerless over their own schedules that they need nationwide legislation to do what they want and enjoy their evenings? I don’t have a point. It’s just kind of a funny thing to think about.
- faitswulff 6y ago
  Society has dictated the majority of people’s lives for most of human history. Being able to control one’s schedule is the exception. In fact, even having eight hours of leisure wasn’t always a given in the US [0][1]. [0]: http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6645/ http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6645/ [1]: https://www.paunions.com/may-day-eight-hours-for-work-eight-hours-for-rest-eight-hours-for-what-we-will/ https://www.paunions.com/may-day-eight-hours-for-work-eight-...
  - ianai 6y ago
    That doesn’t make it right nor correct. Just “normative.” Hunter gatherers didn’t/don’t have these problems. (Though they definitely have plenty of other problems.)
    - faitswulff 6y ago
      Pretty much as soon as your civilization becomes agricultural you encounter these kinds of societal benefits to synchronizing schedules - perhaps at the cost of individual liberties. I’m just pointing out that the GP might be coming at it from a point of view that is a historical exception; I’m not making a value statement about it.
- cptskippy 6y ago
  It's a hack because it's easier to change the fundamental concept of time than it is to change all of our published schedules. Imagine if businesses, trains, fairies, parks, etc all had summer and winter hours. A simple glitch in the Matrix twice a year is preferable.
6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
At this point, my time zone is pretty much entirely determined by my phone and computer. Why don’t we just line it up to be more natural? Over the month of March, spring two minutes forward each night at midnight. By the end of the month we’d be an hour different and nobody would even notice. Maybe not exactly that, but it seems like a great opportunity for technology to enable standards to adapt to people’s needs rather than the other way around.

73 points by Hooke 6y ago

> The country follows the same DST schedule as most of Europe, setting the clocks forward one hour on the last Sunday in March and back again one hour on the last Sunday in October. Didn't EU plan to cancel DST? It's long overdue to cancel this erratic switch everywhere.

kshacker 6y ago
EU and US: They have both been talking about it in spurts, and they do wake up every ~6 months when the time changes, but no serious action anywhere.
- deathanatos 6y ago
  The US has been talking about making DST permanent, which is very different from cancelling it.
  - shmerl 6y ago
    As long as the switch itself is dropped. Which one to drop is probably moot and benefits could depend on the region. It's easier to adjust local schedule than to switch the clock back and forth.
    - chrishas35 6y ago
      Split the difference and let’s move on.
      - Thorrez 6y ago
        I would prefer to not live in a timezone with a half hour offset from UTC (which do exist, in fact 15 minute offsets exist).
        strbean 6y ago
        My favorite timezone absurdity is timezones with an offset > 12 hours.
      - Zacru 6y ago
        I often need to covert timestamps to and from UTC. I sure hope I don't end up in a -6:30 timezone.
  - riffic 6y ago
    the clock is effectively a human construct. It would make little difference one way or another if there was no twice-a-year time change. You can not change the number of hours a point on the earth receives daylight over a 24 hour period, and you can not change the fact that axial tilt means the amount of time you do receive daylight changes over the course of the year.
    - strbean 6y ago
      Can we short-circuit all this BS and just eliminate timezones completely? It'll take a week to get used to thinking in UTC, and then we can forget the nightmare of timezones forever.
      - K2L8M11N2 6y ago
        https://qntm.org/abolish https://qntm.org/abolish
      - iggldiggl 6y ago
        Unless you happen to be part of the privileged part of the world living nearish the meridian, good luck to having the calendar date changing in the middle of your waking hours and all the confusion that that would entail. For the unlucky rest of the world it also means that things like public holidays and suchlike either weirdly start and end in the middle of the (solar) day, or alternatively you'd have to specify that all holidays etc. actually start and end not at midnight (UTC), but whatever time actually corresponds to some time in the middle of night, which basically means reintroducing time zones through the back door. Also the link K2L8M11N2 posted.
  - kshacker 6y ago
    The 'difference' is action vs inaction. I do not know what the consensus is, but we see this drama every 6 months. If they just said 'we are not going to do it', it would be one thing, but we have been having this charade for a while now. I know some charade is required to build consensus, but based on my reading of the news, there is just too much chatter, and we all get riled up every time we change clocks.
gweinberg 6y ago
How about this: we get rid of the time change, but have schools start an hour earlier march through october than november through february. Change the eraly bird parking hours at bart similarly.
- shmerl 6y ago
  I'd say yes, adjust local schedule to your needs instead of adjusting the clock to some schedule.
- Thorrez 6y ago
  Adjusting your entire schedule (commute, job, child care, school, bedtime, alarm time, meal times) twice a year is much much more disruptive than changing your clocks twice a year.
  - shmerl 6y ago
    I'd say the opposite. Adjusting the clock is more disruptive, because your schedule shifts anyway in relation to astronomical cycles. But besides that you also mess up the clock. So it's better to leave the clock alone and to adjust your schedule if you need to.
    - Thorrez 6y ago
      >schedule shifts anyway in relation to astronomical cycles That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about calling into work saying you need a schedule change to work around your kid's new school schedule. Calling your daycare provider to setup a new schedule. If you take public transport, finding how the timetables will work with your new schedule. If you plan doctor's appointments in the future, you now need to take into account time of year to know when your and your kid's availabilities are. None of that happens when everyone changes their clocks. When you mess up the clock currently no schedules need to change (except the people who are working at 2am, which is not very many).
      - shmerl 6y ago
CannisterFlux 6y ago
Yeah, 2021 was planned to be the last time that clocks would be put forwards in March in Europe. Countries would then stay on Summer Time in October if that was their preference, not putting the clocks back. If a country had planned to stay on Winter Time they would put clocks back for the last time in October 2021. From then on no changes would be made in March/October. Shame it's not happening now. Due to the pandemic the negotiations were not completed, so we'll still be doing the DST shuffle this year and again in 2022 at least. There's a danger this will fall off the political map and for Europe to continue the DST changes forever. There are several members that are against removing the clock changes too, others who cannot decide if summer or winter time is better (so may want to keep the status quo, rather than make a choice that half of the population won't like) so it isn't clear-cut.
_ph_ 6y ago
Yes, the EU parliament passed a resolution to end DST 2021. Unfortunately, they didn't mandate a return to standard time along with it, leaving it open for countries to stay on permanent DST. But of course, a decision about this was never made - looking at the EU timezones, permanent DST basically has no place in the schema. The only non-chaotic alternative to DST would be standard time, but no such resolution has been made. Of course, Corona has made all of this even less of a priority. In this situation, the EU is doing something unexpected practical: ignore that resolution so far :)
- iso1631 6y ago
  > Unfortunately, they didn't mandate a return to standard time along with it It's arbitary anyway -- Spain and North Macedonia are on the same time zone, but in A Coruña in winter the sun rises at 9am, while in Bitola it comes up at 7am, despite being on about the same latitude. What makes "standard time" standard? Sun at the highest between 1130 and 1230? Timezones have a rough connection to solar mean, but on standard time the middle of the day in Brest is at 1326, in Białystok it's 1136.
  - tbihl 6y ago
    Spain is well lined up on the 0 meridian, but is on continental time. It should surprise no one that odd times result. China is on a single time zone, IIRC. Imagine if SF shifted clocks forward 3 hours just because that's what Washington does.
    - kwhitefoot 6y ago
      And this means that evenings in Spain are gloriously long.
      - _ph_ 6y ago
        Well, only to an extend, as of course a lot of things just happen later in Spain to compensate the offset of the time zone compared to the sun.
  - 6y ago

ogre_codes 6y ago

I try to keep my sleep schedule so I wake up shortly after daybreak for exactly this reason. I love natural light and loath sleeping through it. I've considered writing an app that sets an alarm to sunset and a reminder 9 hours prior to sunset so I can always wake with the sun and have plenty of sleep. Should be pretty simple I just haven't gotten around to it. (Though personally, I'd prefer it were a personal choice and not the random, sleep disrupting change that DST ends up being)

Jtsummers 6y ago
I was gifted some Philips Hue lights a few years ago. I set one up on my nightstand to turn on at sunrise (actually earlier in the winter, sunrise is the latest I want it set to). It's a much more pleasant way to wake up (with it fading in over 10 minutes or so) than an actual alarm clock. Of course, it can't travel with you but it's not a bad option for the home.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  I actually do something very similar. The light doesn't fade in, but I have some strip lighting which turns on before my alarm. It's a great way to get moving in the morning without a jarring alarm.
- watt 6y ago
  Philips also sells an actual wake-up light alarm clock(s) (such as HF3519/01 ). They have smaller models too which probably would be OK to pack for travel.
- 8fingerlouie 6y ago
  Scandinavian here, i'll pass :) Most of June the sun rises from 4:30 to 4:50, and it's not until late august it rises around 6am again. Sunset is between 9pm and 10pm, civil twilight lasts until 3:42am, and the sun never goes below 12 degrees. From November to February it doesn't rise until 8am. (and sets around 4pm, astronomical twilight around 6pm) We have a large roof window that allows morning sunlight to enter our bedroom, and while my brain/body would probably benefit from following the natural daylight cycle, it has the shutters closed for most of the summer.

echelon 6y ago

For those that want to make a permanent change, let's stop talking about "DST". That's too confusing for a lot of people, and results in many favoring the wrong outcome. We should instead ask people if they want "summertime" or "wintertime" sunrise and sunset. Wintertime proponents use the animosity against the time change to argue against DST, but they seldom mention this means an earlier sunset. This comes down to whether you want to enjoy your time before work or after work. Early risers might prefer early sunrise, but business and leisure activities after work benefit from a later sunset.

chrishas35 6y ago
And there is a compromise to be had here... a one-time 30 minute change, and we’re done. There is strong consensus to eliminate the time change, but which time to choose as permanent seems quite divided. Compromise and let’s move on.
- gweinberg 6y ago
  There absolutely is not. Most people agree that extra sunlight in the afternoon is more useful than in the morning.
  - TheCoelacanth 6y ago
    Polling doesn't back up your opinion[1]. 40% preferred extra sunlight in the morning year-round, 31% preferred it in the evening year-round and 28% preferred switching. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/14/politics/daylight-saving-time-analysis/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/14/politics/daylight-saving-time...
    - dahart 6y ago
      Except there is no year-round extra sunlight for most people in the US, at least if the workday is entirely during sunlight hours. The only time we get to choose when we want our extra sunlight is in the summer. I used to want to abolish the time change, until I looked at the year long plot of sunrise and sunset time, and realized what happens without DST and switching. I changed my mind, because I discovered I like the outcome and I don’t actually want the alternative. https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/san-francisco https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/san-francisco

eucryphia 6y ago

City people could just get up an hour earlier in summer.

Thorrez 6y ago
Are you suggesting we eliminate (go permanent standard time) and have people change their alarms 1 hour earlier in the summer? Does that mean you also go to bed 1 hour earlier in the summer? If you go to bed earlier, you have less evening time to enjoy. Also adjusting your entire schedule (your alarm, your bedtime) twice a year would be very disruptive.
- Rule35 6y ago
  > Also adjusting your entire schedule (your alarm, your bedtime) twice a year would be very disruptive. Yes, it is. I'm glad you agree. > Are you suggesting we eliminate (go permanent standard time) and have people change their alarms 1 hour earlier in the summer? Voluntarily. If they like mornings, yes. If they like evenings, then no.
  - Thorrez 6y ago
    >Yes, it is. I'm glad you agree. I think we actually disagree. We're using different definitions of "adjusting". I'm using it as in change from getting up at 7am instead of 8am. This is very disruptive because you have to reschedule your work shifts, your kid's school time, your commute (e.g public transport), your kid's daycare, doctor's appointments, bedtime, TV watching schedule, evening activities, etc. If you and everyone else shift everything, then no one needs to contact each other to figure out how the rescheduling will work out. It all happens without requiring any communication. If x people interact with each other, then personal shifts might require x^2 interactions to try to figure out their new schedules. If it's set by the government, it requires 0 interactions.
- globular-toast 6y ago
  You've just described exactly what DST is.

lisper 6y ago

> Critics however claim that if adopted all year round, this would result in darker winter mornings which would be more dangerous for children going to school This drives me bananas. If you're worried about this, the right answer is not to force everyone to change their clocks, it's to change the school schedule to start an hour later.

Pxtl 6y ago
Besides that, this hypothetical can be tested. Saskatoon is far north, and they do not do DST timechange. Meanwhile, Red Deer Alberta is a similar climate and latitude, but does DST. So if people are concerned, winter morning accident rates in Saskatchewan could be compared.
tptacek 6y ago
The opposing case is stronger: you can't just change the school schedule, because school is part of the fabric of child care; change its schedule, and you change the schedules of parents, which means now you have a coordination problem. That problem ripples, so that by the time you've really addressed it, you've essentially recapitulated daylight savings time. Accidents aside, there's a lot to be said for not having the first 45 minutes of the school day take place in the dark in places like western Michigan, or for having sunrise occur 3-4 hours before people normally wake up in the summer. Josh Barro is fond of pointing out that this --- eliminating DST --- was tried in the early 1970s, and the 2-year experiment was so universally reviled in practice that it was repealed almost unanimously in Congress just 9 months later.
- chillwaves 6y ago
  Let the children start later. Let the parents start later and have a shorter work day. Problem solved.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    A huge fraction of the US workforce, spread throughout every industry, consists of parents. It sounds easy to say "let the parents start later", but it's a massive coordination problem. It makes more sense if you assume the whole workforce works the way it does for most of us on HN, but in most jobs, you actually have to show up on time; if you can't, someone else has to be scheduled to account for your missing hour. The only way I think you can make DST abolition make sense is if you say "well, I guess kids are going to be at school in the dark at 9AM in a bunch of places around the country". That's a coherent argument! But "parents and workplaces will just figure it out" is, I think, not.

hourislate 6y ago

I would vote for any Presidential Candidate and House Representative regardless of party on the promise of leaving the clocks on DST all year around. That's all they would have to do to get my vote....nothing else.

User23 6y ago
This actually happened in the ‘70s and it sucked so hard it got repealed in less than a year[1]. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/us-tried-year-round-daylight-saving-time-people-hated-it-2021-3?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/us-tried-year-round-daylight...
- hourislate 6y ago
  That article was funny. Business owners complaining they have to open up in the predawn? How does SBUX do it? The one down the street opens at 5 am. Construction men working in the dark for an hour? What do they want bankers hours? And schools having to open 30 minutes later, Imagine we give the kids 30 more minutes of sleep in the am. These days they are like factory workers waking up at 6 am to ride the bus and get to school for 8 am. Crazy..... Changing the clock back and forth is unhealthy for everyone. We need to standardize on one time for our sanity and health. I use to prefer Standard time but now prefer DST, I don't know it just agrees with me more now that I am older. Lets try it again and see if anyone complains....
  - swiley 6y ago
    I never had to deal with any of this because I was homeschooled but every time I hear about the way public schooled kids are treated it sounds like abuse.
  - derefr 6y ago
    > Construction men working in the dark for an hour? What do they want, bankers hours? Presumably, they want their schedule moved around so they can see what they're doing. There's no reason that the clock itself needs to change for that, though. Just unions forcing employers into a "9-5 in summer, 10-6 in winter" schedule would work fine.

exmadscientist 6y ago

Interestingly, the caption on the sundial is wrong! It seems the caption writer misread "IX" upside-down as "XI"; the sundial actually runs from 3am to 9pm (0300 to 2100), not 3am to 11pm (0300 to 2300) as claimed.

kleiba 6y ago

I suppose opponents of DST don't enjoy long summer evenings out on the porch. And they never travel out of their own time zone either.

bloak 6y ago

As I see it, in the summer there's plenty of daylight so it doesn't matter very much how you set your clock, but in the winter it does matter: children would be cycling to school in the dark if you moved the clocks forward (and they'd be cycling back from school in the dark if you moved the clocks back). Therefore, if you want to abolish the clock changes, which seems like an excellent idea to me, the safe and conservative way to do that is to use today's winter time all year round.

gburnett 6y ago
A change to GMT all year round would be most welcome here in the U.K.
richrichardsson 6y ago
> the safe and conservative way to do that is to use today's winter time all year round What are the points that lead you to this conclusion? Personally I'd prefer if DST was abolished by staying on Summer Time permanently, as I dislike the lack of light in the evening, and couldn't care less about the dark mornings, but mine is a purely selfish reasoning.
- eru 6y ago
  Just get up earlier? Moving around what we call the hours of the day doesn't change anything real.
  - TuringTest 6y ago
    Unfortunately, business have a habit of maintaining the same opening schedules all year long, which means they open earlier in summer and later in winter (relative to the sun). You don't change the sun, but changing own habits relative to the clock is not an option for the majority of people - so if the clock changes, society follows.
    - da_big_ghey 6y ago
      This is why we want normal time not daylight delay. This solution wake up and have about two hours to eat breakfast, get dressed, etc. before day starts with earnest.

rjmunro 6y ago

Moving around what we call the hours of the day is a really stupid way to change habits. Why not do this for other unit's of measurement? People travel at 70mph on highways, have accidents and die. Lets make 1 mile only 1200m instead of 1600m, now when the speed limit is 70mph, people will really be travelling at 84kph instead of 112kph, so less will die. It's utterly absurd. Just post a 50mph limit. If you want people to start the day earlier at certain times of year, you just legislate that things start earlier at a certain time of year. For example schools and shops should be obliged to change their opening hours on that day.

thepete2 6y ago
Exactly. The right way to go about it would be changing standard business hours (and school, etc.) twice a year.
6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
How do you legislate that things happen an hour earlier when you don’t legislate when they happen in the first place?
- samus 6y ago
  For stuff that you really care about, you pass regulations that public institutions have to follow. This takes care of stuff like school hours, counter opening times, mass transport time tables and the like. The rest of society either adapts or doesn't care. Some businesses, especially if they are outdoors-related, already have different opening hours in summer and winter. It really doesn't have to be legislated on a large scale.
asoneth 6y ago
Coordinating a mass schedule change at a specific point in time is just a different method of implementing daylight-savings time. Between the two, changing wall clocks seems like the simpler of the two options, but either is fine.
- lostapathy 6y ago

mrfusion 6y ago

I support full time DST but ... Isn’t it weird to think That the Vast majority Of people are so powerless over their own schedules that they need nationwide legislation to do what they want and enjoy their evenings? I don’t have a point. It’s just kind of a funny thing to think about.

faitswulff 6y ago
Society has dictated the majority of people’s lives for most of human history. Being able to control one’s schedule is the exception. In fact, even having eight hours of leisure wasn’t always a given in the US [0][1]. [0]: http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6645/ http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6645/ [1]: https://www.paunions.com/may-day-eight-hours-for-work-eight-hours-for-rest-eight-hours-for-what-we-will/ https://www.paunions.com/may-day-eight-hours-for-work-eight-...
- ianai 6y ago
  That doesn’t make it right nor correct. Just “normative.” Hunter gatherers didn’t/don’t have these problems. (Though they definitely have plenty of other problems.)
  - faitswulff 6y ago
    Pretty much as soon as your civilization becomes agricultural you encounter these kinds of societal benefits to synchronizing schedules - perhaps at the cost of individual liberties. I’m just pointing out that the GP might be coming at it from a point of view that is a historical exception; I’m not making a value statement about it.
cptskippy 6y ago
It's a hack because it's easier to change the fundamental concept of time than it is to change all of our published schedules. Imagine if businesses, trains, fairies, parks, etc all had summer and winter hours. A simple glitch in the Matrix twice a year is preferable.

6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago

At this point, my time zone is pretty much entirely determined by my phone and computer. Why don’t we just line it up to be more natural? Over the month of March, spring two minutes forward each night at midnight. By the end of the month we’d be an hour different and nobody would even notice. Maybe not exactly that, but it seems like a great opportunity for technology to enable standards to adapt to people’s needs rather than the other way around.