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As someone that lives in Toronto and is moving out in the middle of the month to go back home near family. The idea that Toronto is going to focus on "affordab

As someone that lives in Toronto and is moving out in the middle of the month to go back home near family. The idea that Toronto is going to focus on "affordability" is laughable. It's one of the most expensive cities to live in in the world, and the incompetent city council, mayor and all the way up to the provincial government are doing absolutely everything they can to keep it that way - mostly without even realizing it. They have absolutely no clue what they are doing or the basics of market economics. The federal government is also considering to step in to try and "solve" the problem, and this only means the problem is going to get worse. I am not joking when I say that when the Canadian real estate markets crash - it is going to be absolutely disastrous for this country as it is basically the tent-pole keeping the entire thing propped up. Our debt to GDP is out of control. Our federal government keeps borrowing and spending on things that are completely inneffective (and bragging they spent the most than any other country). My gloom and doom prediction is our currency is going to be absolutely worthless in two years time.

neom 6y ago
Instead of moving out, couldn't you get involved with politics and try to change things?
- rohannair 6y ago
  3 million people live in Toronto. This is like asking if you can get into politics in Chicago and change things.
  - neom 6y ago
    Somebody who is frustrated shouldn't bother to get into politics or try to change things in big cities because..a lot of people live in them?? huh??
    - david-gpu 6y ago
      Becoming actively involved in politics is a quixotic endeavour with a high personal cost and very low chances of success. Moving out has much lower cost and much higher chances of solving your problem. Thank goodness some people get into politics anyway, but it is not a rational choice for a utility-maximizing actor.
      - astrange 6y ago
        It's actually not hard to get into local politics and you can certainly get things done. There's not a lot of competition or money involved and most people haven't figured out you can do it yet. Mainly what happens is older people will scream at you when you say you want a bike lane. It does take a lot of patience though; you won't get much done in the first year or two.
  - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
    Of 3 million residents, maybe a few thousand - at most - will be full-time politically committed and active. The problem isn't the numbers, it's breaking into the patronage and power networks. That's not a numbers game. It's a relationship, influence, and networking game. And some elements will be corrupt, while others will be about carefully cultivated appearance management.
    - _spduchamp 6y ago
      We were so close to having ranked ballots for Toronto which is exactly what we need to improve accountabilituy, but Dougie scrapped that for all Ontario cities. Hopefully we'll get things back on track. https://www.unlockdemocracy.ca/123ontario https://www.unlockdemocracy.ca/123ontario https://www.rabit.ca/ https://www.rabit.ca/
  - alexashka 6y ago
    Forgive my naivete but yes, that's how change happens? If we look at social movements of the past century, they weren't easy on the members but many of them were successful in bringing about change. I don't know when it became fashionable to only do things that guarantee success within your lifetime and openly dismiss any other way of life but that's not how people who actually make a difference live.
    - DC1350 6y ago
      It's a million times easier to just move away than it is to change anything about a global problem in a city with millions of people. Making a difference doesn't solve personal problems.
      - alexashka 6y ago
        Right. I have to wonder where people who don't work in IT will move away to and what they're going to do there. For IT folks, sure, pack your bags, go to a tropical community built for people with money and live in paradise. What about everyone else?
- njharman 6y ago
  Voting with feet is often more impactful. Both for the cause and the idividual
akamaka 6y ago
Are you from r/canada? For those not familiar, this is a typical example of the angry reddit posts on the topic of housing prices that get produced daily. I was going to post a rebuttal, but you can go there to see this same debate repeated a thousand times over.
- neom 6y ago
  I don't think it's just a Canadian thing, I do live in Toronto and I do hear this rant all the time - however, I also heard this exact same rant when I lived in NYC, Seoul, Edinburgh.
  - akamaka 6y ago
    It seems to be a Canadian thing to not realize it’s happening all over the world.
- belval 6y ago
  This is not a very constructive reply, how about you give us the rebuttal?
  - akamaka 6y ago
    https://www.google.ca/search?q=personalfinancecanada+house+prices+site:www.reddit.com https://www.google.ca/search?q=personalfinancecanada+house+p... There are literally thousands of threads that repeat the same arguments over and over. The original poster may as well be quoting any of them without any new insight into the economics behind it. Once you’ve been on reddit for a while, you realize how pointless it is to engage in these discussions since people only bring in their emotions and not much data.
    - vvG94KbDUtRa 6y ago
      Like yourself for instance
    - humanorgan 6y ago
hourislate 6y ago
The Fed Gov and BoC have no choice but to keep interest rates at zero and continue to play with numbers to keep the ponzi going so the whole Country doesn't collapse. You also have to take into consideration that there is no where else to find any work but in the big cities. The whole damn situation is a mess with no way out. Feel sorry for the kids who finish a degree in STEM from Waterloo or UoT and end up working for 40k a year. They will never be able to afford a house and now all of Southern Ontario is getting pricey. Even houses in Barrie (an hour outside of Toronto) are over 500k. Article A down payment on a Toronto house should take 24 years to accumulate https://nowtoronto.com/lifestyle/toronto-real-estate-affordability-down-payment-savings https://nowtoronto.com/lifestyle/toronto-real-estate-afforda...
- andi999 6y ago
  "A down payment on a Toronto house should take 24 years to accumulate", reading the article this seems to be based on a severe case of dyscalculia. If the apartment costs 1 million and you want to save until you have 6% (which is 60k), and you only save 10% of your annual 170k salary, meaning you save 17k per year so after 3 years plus you have the down-payment. In addition to proper math one also should probably save a bit more per year. Edit: I am basically criticizing the article linked from the comment: https://nowtoronto.com/lifestyle/toronto-real-estate-affordability-down-payment-savings https://nowtoronto.com/lifestyle/toronto-real-estate-afforda... Apart from the calculation wrong I also think the numbers/assumptions are not good
  - jdtbuchanan 6y ago
    Not sure where you got the numbers but to buy a 1m condo in Toronto would require closer to 250k not 60k. And that isn’t taking into consideration the condo will also be up 8-10% next year.
    - andi999 6y ago
      My numbers are from the article linked in the post I answered to.
foobiekr 6y ago
I would like to learn more about this. What are some sources I could look into?
- JanisL 6y ago
  Look at the credit default swap markets, these gives you information into what people are actually willing to bet money on regarding currencies.
fatsdomino001 6y ago
Don't worry, conservatives will get in and fire-sale our natural resources to try and pay off the debt. It's like a horrifying good cop bad cop.
otoburb 6y ago
>>It's one of the most expensive cities to live in in the world, [...] Toronto was ranked as the 98th most expensive city in the world; not even in the top 50, even though it's the 4th largest city in North America. Perhaps it's more accurate to say that Toronto and Vancouver are unaffordable and expensive cities for domestic Canadians to live in. >>Our debt to GDP is out of control. Our federal government keeps borrowing and spending on things that are completely inneffective (and bragging they spent the most than any other country). My gloom and doom prediction is our currency is going to be absolutely worthless in two years time. Canada's debt-to-GDP is 88%[2], but the USA's debt-to-GDP is 127%[3] and climbing. You remember the ol' saying: when America sneezes, Canada catches a cold. The largest destabilizing factor to Canada's economy is likely to be problems with their largest trading partner. [1] https://www.mercer.com/newsroom/2020-cost-of-living.html https://www.mercer.com/newsroom/2020-cost-of-living.html [2] https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-national-debt https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-nat... [3] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEGDQ188S https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEGDQ188S
- ghaff 6y ago
  >Perhaps it's more accurate to say that Toronto and Vancouver are unaffordable and expensive cities for domestic Canadians to live in. Yes, the numbers in that first link are in the context of expats. But even with remote work likely becoming more common, it's more meaningful in general to think about cost of living with respect to local salaries because that's what people living in a city are earning.
- throwaway8581 6y ago
  The US situation is bad but also unique because of guaranteed demand for the dollar for at least the short to medium term. So you can’t really compare the numbers. Other countries don’t control the printing press for the world reserve currency.
- moufestaphio 6y ago
  >> Toronto was ranked as the 98th most expensive city in the world; not even in the top 50. So, I'm not going to look into different methodologies that are used, but Toronto is often ranked near the top of least affordable cities. For example: http://demographia.com/dhi.pdf http://demographia.com/dhi.pdf
rch 6y ago
As far as I can tell, the affordable housing movement has been broadly co-opted by developers who leverage grants and incentives to expand their portfolios of rent generating assets. Regulations which include language like "X% of units must be for renters making <80% AMI" appear positive, but often favor larger-scale, high-capital projects which exacerbate bifurcation in the housing market and drive even more stock towards the rental/high-HOA model, bundled with big-box retail and other commercial real estate nearby. There is a genuine affordable (and equitable) housing movement, largely built on urban equity-cooperatives and community land trusts, but those promising efforts have been very effectively redirected into boosting opportunities for "master planned" real estate corporations.
- clairity 6y ago
  > "Regulations which include language like 'X% of units must be for renters making <80% AMI' appear positive, but often favor larger-scale, high-capital projects..." yes, regulatory capture at work. any time a stipulation is prescriptive rather than (largely) descriptive, it's quite likely a mistargeted regulation. being numerical makes it seem objective, but despite that, it doesn't lead to the implied/explicit intent, which is more equitable housing. it's a token gesture meant to veil the true intent of benefiting, and concentrating power among, cronies. oftentimes, the rationale behind writing regulations this way is to create a clear delineation of what's acceptable and not, but the line is nearly always drawn in the wrong place and is hopelessly incomplete in scope relative to objective. it's the same class of deception as citing selective (i.e., incomplete) statistics. what we need is to explicitly encourage human-scale ownership and development everywhere, through every means available, including zoning reform and tax policy.
  - Tiktaalik 6y ago
    > what we need is to explicitly encourage human-scale ownership and development everywhere, through every means available, including zoning reform and tax policy. People focus on the zoning a lot, but it really is the tax policy. Look around Vancouver and you'll see little three story walk up apartments all over. They stopped making them in 1993 because the incoming Liberal government adopted an incredible deficit slaying austerity approach which was in vogue at the time. The federal government completely got out of participating in housing at all. Beneficial tax policy that encouraged small apartment development was ended and since '93 pretty much the only thing that was built after was condos. Effectively the current housing affordability crisis in Canada can be traced back to this early 90s austerity decision. Nothing filled the void left by the government pulling away from housing development. The relatively much more spendy contemporary Liberal government has made lots of noises about housing investment, but they really haven't done much at all to undo the damage of the '93 Liberals.
thepasswordis 6y ago
Are there any cities where the citizens don’t think the city council, government, etc is all “incompetent”? Like what is a city which is well functioning, where the citizens like the government?
- frosted-flakes 6y ago
  Some cities do have good governments and high popularity ratings, to the point where politicians get fairly re-elected for decades straight. Mississauga (part of the GTA) is apparently one of them, because Hazel Mccallion served as mayor for 36 years straight and only stopped because she was 93. I'm not exactly sure why she was so popular (I'm not from there), but her endorsement is still mayor 6 years later, so they must be doing something right.
- PoignardAzur 6y ago
  The mayor of Paris (Anne Hidalgo) is relatively popular and respected by even her detractors. (not many members of the Socialist Party you can say that about these days)
- chubot 6y ago
  That was my reaction on reading the parent comment too. However then I remembered that the mayor of Toronto was Rob Ford a few years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Ford https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Ford https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Rob_Ford_video_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Rob_Ford_video_sca... Boundaries have moved in recent years, but I think this behavior is still outside of normal for politicians.
DC1350 6y ago
The entire concept of "affordable" housing makes no sense when even people with average incomes struggle to afford a decent quality of life. The government acts like people who only make 50-60k or less are middle class, but they don't even make enough to rent without roommates right now. Charity prices for minimum wage workers should be the last thing on their mind. The Canadian government is working as hard as they can to divide the country into owners who have homes that make more money than they do, and a permanent underclass of renters that can't possibly catch up with the price increases no matter how much of their money they save. Canada (or at least Southern Ontario and BC) is at a point where being born 5-10 years earlier is a bigger quality of life difference than the difference choosing to be a customer service worker or a lawyer. Toronto homes were up 30% through 2020. They doubled in the 5 years before that. Being born 5 years earlier is the difference between renting with roommates forever, and being a home owning real estate millionaire. It's going to start creating really weird social dynamics soon.
u678u 6y ago
> I am not joking when I say that when the Canadian real estate markets crash - it is going to be absolutely disastrous for this country Sounds like half the world right now.
f6v 6y ago
Canada is a democracy though. If what you’re saying is true, why won’t residents elect a government that can do something?
- alacombe 6y ago
  Why elect anybody beside t those giving you free lunch over free lunch ? Nobody cares about who's gonna foot the bill.
- bregma 6y ago
  No one votes in municipal elections. It's what, a 25% participation rate? Cities like Toronto are run by a collection of special interest groups evenly divided into the developer-backed and BANANA-activist cliques, resulting in decades of deadlock.
  - gurubavan 6y ago
    Toronto 2018 - 41% Toronto 2014 - 55% Toronto 2010 - 51% -- Boston 2017 - 29% Boston 2013 - 38% Boston 2009 - 31% -- Chicago 2019 - 35% (first round) Chicago 2015 - 34% (first round) Chicago 2011 - 42% -- NYC 2017 - 18% NYC 2013 - 13% NYC 2009 - <11% -- LA 2017 - 20% LA 2013 - 23% LA 2009 - 18% -- Vancouver 2018 - 39% Vancouver 2014 - 44% Vancouver 2011 - 35% -- London 2016 - 45% London 2012 - 38% London 2008 - 45% -- Tokyo 2020 - 55% (during pandemic) Tokyo 2016 - 60% Tokyo 2012 - 63% -- Paris 2020 - 40% (during pandemic, lowest turnout on record ever) https://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/kb/docs/articles/city-clerks-office/election-services/municipal-election-voter-turnout-statistics.html https://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/kb/docs/articles/ci... https://www.wbur.org/news/2017/11/08/voter-turnout-boston https://www.wbur.org/news/2017/11/08/voter-turnout-boston https://chicagoelections.gov/en/election-results.asp?election=210 https://chicagoelections.gov/en/election-results.asp?electio... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_New_York_City_mayoral_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_New_York_City_mayoral_ele... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Los_Angeles_mayoral_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Los_Angeles_mayoral_elect... https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/voter-turnout-drops-for-vancouver-municipal-election-1.4873181 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/voter-turnou... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_London_mayoral_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_London_mayoral_election https://www.france24.com/en/20200628-liveblog-low-turnout-in-second-round-of-france-s-local-elections https://www.france24.com/en/20200628-liveblog-low-turnout-in...
snidane 6y ago
Isn't it the case everywhere in the world, in the post 2008 crisis world, to have society's prosperity tied directly to the real estate bubble? Most exacerbated in metro areas. Only the most stupid politicians would want to kill the peoples' prosperity by popping the bubble, wouldn't they?
throwawaysea 6y ago
Is it really that these cities are poorly managed or just that everyone feels entitled to live in the most expensive and desirable places? I don’t get the point of building up more - it’s just going to induce more demand (a common argument used by urbanists when it comes to road infrastructure). The real fix is that people need to spread out, and stop feeling like there are only two places to live in across such a large land. But no one wants to hear that they’re not entitled to have the exact job/city/pricing/conditions they feel they deserve.
- imtringued 6y ago
  >(a common argument used by urbanists when it comes to road infrastructure) This just proves that you don't know how housing works. I'm not even talking about the market itself. I'm just talking about the concept of being allowed to live in a building for money. You have to pay rent to live in a house/apartment. Alternatively you pay a mortgage or you buy the house outright. None of this applies to road infrastructure, you don't pay toll to use a wider road. It's a direct subsidy to people who like driving. You would have to be extremely stupid to not understand that wider roads will lead to more driving. There is nothing preventing you from using public infrastructure wastefully precisely because it's free. Free suffers from tragedy of commons, everyone knows that. If you use housing wastefully like by keeping it vacant you personally pay for this loss yourself. You're on the hook for your own behavior. People also get to decide whether they want denser apartments meanwhile the city planner forces road construction upon you whether your neighborhood really needs it or not.
  - astrange 6y ago
    > People also get to decide whether they want denser apartments meanwhile the city planner forces road construction upon you whether your neighborhood really needs it or not. This isn't really right, you're confusing 60s style city planning with the modern approach. 60s style "urban renewal" built a lot of freeways everywhere without asking and destroyed many poor neighborhoods. This caused a backlash and the start of urban environmental activism (e.g. SF getting rid of the Embarcadero highway), and urban planning switched to the exact opposite approach it uses now, which is to never do anything without 5000 community meetings. The result of this is… nothing ever happens, because the only people who show up to community meetings are retirees who don't want anything to change; nobody else has any free time. These people are less against roads than they are against houses though, because they mostly have no opinions other than hating traffic and liking free parking.

neom 6y ago

Instead of moving out, couldn't you get involved with politics and try to change things?

rohannair 6y ago
3 million people live in Toronto. This is like asking if you can get into politics in Chicago and change things.
- neom 6y ago
  Somebody who is frustrated shouldn't bother to get into politics or try to change things in big cities because..a lot of people live in them?? huh??
  - david-gpu 6y ago
    Becoming actively involved in politics is a quixotic endeavour with a high personal cost and very low chances of success. Moving out has much lower cost and much higher chances of solving your problem. Thank goodness some people get into politics anyway, but it is not a rational choice for a utility-maximizing actor.
    - astrange 6y ago
      It's actually not hard to get into local politics and you can certainly get things done. There's not a lot of competition or money involved and most people haven't figured out you can do it yet. Mainly what happens is older people will scream at you when you say you want a bike lane. It does take a lot of patience though; you won't get much done in the first year or two.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  Of 3 million residents, maybe a few thousand - at most - will be full-time politically committed and active. The problem isn't the numbers, it's breaking into the patronage and power networks. That's not a numbers game. It's a relationship, influence, and networking game. And some elements will be corrupt, while others will be about carefully cultivated appearance management.
  - _spduchamp 6y ago
    We were so close to having ranked ballots for Toronto which is exactly what we need to improve accountabilituy, but Dougie scrapped that for all Ontario cities. Hopefully we'll get things back on track. https://www.unlockdemocracy.ca/123ontario https://www.unlockdemocracy.ca/123ontario https://www.rabit.ca/ https://www.rabit.ca/
- alexashka 6y ago
  Forgive my naivete but yes, that's how change happens? If we look at social movements of the past century, they weren't easy on the members but many of them were successful in bringing about change. I don't know when it became fashionable to only do things that guarantee success within your lifetime and openly dismiss any other way of life but that's not how people who actually make a difference live.
  - DC1350 6y ago
    It's a million times easier to just move away than it is to change anything about a global problem in a city with millions of people. Making a difference doesn't solve personal problems.
    - alexashka 6y ago
      Right. I have to wonder where people who don't work in IT will move away to and what they're going to do there. For IT folks, sure, pack your bags, go to a tropical community built for people with money and live in paradise. What about everyone else?
njharman 6y ago
Voting with feet is often more impactful. Both for the cause and the idividual

akamaka 6y ago

Are you from r/canada? For those not familiar, this is a typical example of the angry reddit posts on the topic of housing prices that get produced daily. I was going to post a rebuttal, but you can go there to see this same debate repeated a thousand times over.

neom 6y ago
I don't think it's just a Canadian thing, I do live in Toronto and I do hear this rant all the time - however, I also heard this exact same rant when I lived in NYC, Seoul, Edinburgh.
- akamaka 6y ago
  It seems to be a Canadian thing to not realize it’s happening all over the world.
belval 6y ago
This is not a very constructive reply, how about you give us the rebuttal?
- akamaka 6y ago
  https://www.google.ca/search?q=personalfinancecanada+house+prices+site:www.reddit.com https://www.google.ca/search?q=personalfinancecanada+house+p... There are literally thousands of threads that repeat the same arguments over and over. The original poster may as well be quoting any of them without any new insight into the economics behind it. Once you’ve been on reddit for a while, you realize how pointless it is to engage in these discussions since people only bring in their emotions and not much data.
  - vvG94KbDUtRa 6y ago
    Like yourself for instance
  - humanorgan 6y ago

hourislate 6y ago

The Fed Gov and BoC have no choice but to keep interest rates at zero and continue to play with numbers to keep the ponzi going so the whole Country doesn't collapse. You also have to take into consideration that there is no where else to find any work but in the big cities. The whole damn situation is a mess with no way out. Feel sorry for the kids who finish a degree in STEM from Waterloo or UoT and end up working for 40k a year. They will never be able to afford a house and now all of Southern Ontario is getting pricey. Even houses in Barrie (an hour outside of Toronto) are over 500k. Article A down payment on a Toronto house should take 24 years to accumulate https://nowtoronto.com/lifestyle/toronto-real-estate-affordability-down-payment-savings https://nowtoronto.com/lifestyle/toronto-real-estate-afforda...

andi999 6y ago
"A down payment on a Toronto house should take 24 years to accumulate", reading the article this seems to be based on a severe case of dyscalculia. If the apartment costs 1 million and you want to save until you have 6% (which is 60k), and you only save 10% of your annual 170k salary, meaning you save 17k per year so after 3 years plus you have the down-payment. In addition to proper math one also should probably save a bit more per year. Edit: I am basically criticizing the article linked from the comment: https://nowtoronto.com/lifestyle/toronto-real-estate-affordability-down-payment-savings https://nowtoronto.com/lifestyle/toronto-real-estate-afforda... Apart from the calculation wrong I also think the numbers/assumptions are not good
- jdtbuchanan 6y ago
  Not sure where you got the numbers but to buy a 1m condo in Toronto would require closer to 250k not 60k. And that isn’t taking into consideration the condo will also be up 8-10% next year.
  - andi999 6y ago
    My numbers are from the article linked in the post I answered to.

foobiekr 6y ago

I would like to learn more about this. What are some sources I could look into?

JanisL 6y ago
Look at the credit default swap markets, these gives you information into what people are actually willing to bet money on regarding currencies.

fatsdomino001 6y ago

Don't worry, conservatives will get in and fire-sale our natural resources to try and pay off the debt. It's like a horrifying good cop bad cop.

otoburb 6y ago

>>It's one of the most expensive cities to live in in the world, [...] Toronto was ranked as the 98th most expensive city in the world; not even in the top 50, even though it's the 4th largest city in North America. Perhaps it's more accurate to say that Toronto and Vancouver are unaffordable and expensive cities for domestic Canadians to live in. >>Our debt to GDP is out of control. Our federal government keeps borrowing and spending on things that are completely inneffective (and bragging they spent the most than any other country). My gloom and doom prediction is our currency is going to be absolutely worthless in two years time. Canada's debt-to-GDP is 88%[2], but the USA's debt-to-GDP is 127%[3] and climbing. You remember the ol' saying: when America sneezes, Canada catches a cold. The largest destabilizing factor to Canada's economy is likely to be problems with their largest trading partner. [1] https://www.mercer.com/newsroom/2020-cost-of-living.html https://www.mercer.com/newsroom/2020-cost-of-living.html [2] https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-national-debt https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-nat... [3] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEGDQ188S https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEGDQ188S

ghaff 6y ago
>Perhaps it's more accurate to say that Toronto and Vancouver are unaffordable and expensive cities for domestic Canadians to live in. Yes, the numbers in that first link are in the context of expats. But even with remote work likely becoming more common, it's more meaningful in general to think about cost of living with respect to local salaries because that's what people living in a city are earning.
throwaway8581 6y ago
The US situation is bad but also unique because of guaranteed demand for the dollar for at least the short to medium term. So you can’t really compare the numbers. Other countries don’t control the printing press for the world reserve currency.
moufestaphio 6y ago
>> Toronto was ranked as the 98th most expensive city in the world; not even in the top 50. So, I'm not going to look into different methodologies that are used, but Toronto is often ranked near the top of least affordable cities. For example: http://demographia.com/dhi.pdf http://demographia.com/dhi.pdf

rch 6y ago

As far as I can tell, the affordable housing movement has been broadly co-opted by developers who leverage grants and incentives to expand their portfolios of rent generating assets. Regulations which include language like "X% of units must be for renters making <80% AMI" appear positive, but often favor larger-scale, high-capital projects which exacerbate bifurcation in the housing market and drive even more stock towards the rental/high-HOA model, bundled with big-box retail and other commercial real estate nearby. There is a genuine affordable (and equitable) housing movement, largely built on urban equity-cooperatives and community land trusts, but those promising efforts have been very effectively redirected into boosting opportunities for "master planned" real estate corporations.

clairity 6y ago
> "Regulations which include language like 'X% of units must be for renters making <80% AMI' appear positive, but often favor larger-scale, high-capital projects..." yes, regulatory capture at work. any time a stipulation is prescriptive rather than (largely) descriptive, it's quite likely a mistargeted regulation. being numerical makes it seem objective, but despite that, it doesn't lead to the implied/explicit intent, which is more equitable housing. it's a token gesture meant to veil the true intent of benefiting, and concentrating power among, cronies. oftentimes, the rationale behind writing regulations this way is to create a clear delineation of what's acceptable and not, but the line is nearly always drawn in the wrong place and is hopelessly incomplete in scope relative to objective. it's the same class of deception as citing selective (i.e., incomplete) statistics. what we need is to explicitly encourage human-scale ownership and development everywhere, through every means available, including zoning reform and tax policy.
- Tiktaalik 6y ago
  > what we need is to explicitly encourage human-scale ownership and development everywhere, through every means available, including zoning reform and tax policy. People focus on the zoning a lot, but it really is the tax policy. Look around Vancouver and you'll see little three story walk up apartments all over. They stopped making them in 1993 because the incoming Liberal government adopted an incredible deficit slaying austerity approach which was in vogue at the time. The federal government completely got out of participating in housing at all. Beneficial tax policy that encouraged small apartment development was ended and since '93 pretty much the only thing that was built after was condos. Effectively the current housing affordability crisis in Canada can be traced back to this early 90s austerity decision. Nothing filled the void left by the government pulling away from housing development. The relatively much more spendy contemporary Liberal government has made lots of noises about housing investment, but they really haven't done much at all to undo the damage of the '93 Liberals.

thepasswordis 6y ago

Are there any cities where the citizens don’t think the city council, government, etc is all “incompetent”? Like what is a city which is well functioning, where the citizens like the government?

frosted-flakes 6y ago
Some cities do have good governments and high popularity ratings, to the point where politicians get fairly re-elected for decades straight. Mississauga (part of the GTA) is apparently one of them, because Hazel Mccallion served as mayor for 36 years straight and only stopped because she was 93. I'm not exactly sure why she was so popular (I'm not from there), but her endorsement is still mayor 6 years later, so they must be doing something right.
PoignardAzur 6y ago
The mayor of Paris (Anne Hidalgo) is relatively popular and respected by even her detractors. (not many members of the Socialist Party you can say that about these days)
chubot 6y ago
That was my reaction on reading the parent comment too. However then I remembered that the mayor of Toronto was Rob Ford a few years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Ford https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Ford https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Rob_Ford_video_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Rob_Ford_video_sca... Boundaries have moved in recent years, but I think this behavior is still outside of normal for politicians.

DC1350 6y ago

The entire concept of "affordable" housing makes no sense when even people with average incomes struggle to afford a decent quality of life. The government acts like people who only make 50-60k or less are middle class, but they don't even make enough to rent without roommates right now. Charity prices for minimum wage workers should be the last thing on their mind. The Canadian government is working as hard as they can to divide the country into owners who have homes that make more money than they do, and a permanent underclass of renters that can't possibly catch up with the price increases no matter how much of their money they save. Canada (or at least Southern Ontario and BC) is at a point where being born 5-10 years earlier is a bigger quality of life difference than the difference choosing to be a customer service worker or a lawyer. Toronto homes were up 30% through 2020. They doubled in the 5 years before that. Being born 5 years earlier is the difference between renting with roommates forever, and being a home owning real estate millionaire. It's going to start creating really weird social dynamics soon.

u678u 6y ago

> I am not joking when I say that when the Canadian real estate markets crash - it is going to be absolutely disastrous for this country Sounds like half the world right now.

f6v 6y ago

Canada is a democracy though. If what you’re saying is true, why won’t residents elect a government that can do something?

alacombe 6y ago
Why elect anybody beside t those giving you free lunch over free lunch ? Nobody cares about who's gonna foot the bill.
bregma 6y ago
No one votes in municipal elections. It's what, a 25% participation rate? Cities like Toronto are run by a collection of special interest groups evenly divided into the developer-backed and BANANA-activist cliques, resulting in decades of deadlock.
- gurubavan 6y ago
  Toronto 2018 - 41% Toronto 2014 - 55% Toronto 2010 - 51% -- Boston 2017 - 29% Boston 2013 - 38% Boston 2009 - 31% -- Chicago 2019 - 35% (first round) Chicago 2015 - 34% (first round) Chicago 2011 - 42% -- NYC 2017 - 18% NYC 2013 - 13% NYC 2009 - <11% -- LA 2017 - 20% LA 2013 - 23% LA 2009 - 18% -- Vancouver 2018 - 39% Vancouver 2014 - 44% Vancouver 2011 - 35% -- London 2016 - 45% London 2012 - 38% London 2008 - 45% -- Tokyo 2020 - 55% (during pandemic) Tokyo 2016 - 60% Tokyo 2012 - 63% -- Paris 2020 - 40% (during pandemic, lowest turnout on record ever) https://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/kb/docs/articles/city-clerks-office/election-services/municipal-election-voter-turnout-statistics.html https://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/kb/docs/articles/ci... https://www.wbur.org/news/2017/11/08/voter-turnout-boston https://www.wbur.org/news/2017/11/08/voter-turnout-boston https://chicagoelections.gov/en/election-results.asp?election=210 https://chicagoelections.gov/en/election-results.asp?electio... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_New_York_City_mayoral_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_New_York_City_mayoral_ele... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Los_Angeles_mayoral_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Los_Angeles_mayoral_elect... https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/voter-turnout-drops-for-vancouver-municipal-election-1.4873181 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/voter-turnou... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_London_mayoral_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_London_mayoral_election https://www.france24.com/en/20200628-liveblog-low-turnout-in-second-round-of-france-s-local-elections https://www.france24.com/en/20200628-liveblog-low-turnout-in...

snidane 6y ago

Isn't it the case everywhere in the world, in the post 2008 crisis world, to have society's prosperity tied directly to the real estate bubble? Most exacerbated in metro areas. Only the most stupid politicians would want to kill the peoples' prosperity by popping the bubble, wouldn't they?

throwawaysea 6y ago

Is it really that these cities are poorly managed or just that everyone feels entitled to live in the most expensive and desirable places? I don’t get the point of building up more - it’s just going to induce more demand (a common argument used by urbanists when it comes to road infrastructure). The real fix is that people need to spread out, and stop feeling like there are only two places to live in across such a large land. But no one wants to hear that they’re not entitled to have the exact job/city/pricing/conditions they feel they deserve.

imtringued 6y ago
>(a common argument used by urbanists when it comes to road infrastructure) This just proves that you don't know how housing works. I'm not even talking about the market itself. I'm just talking about the concept of being allowed to live in a building for money. You have to pay rent to live in a house/apartment. Alternatively you pay a mortgage or you buy the house outright. None of this applies to road infrastructure, you don't pay toll to use a wider road. It's a direct subsidy to people who like driving. You would have to be extremely stupid to not understand that wider roads will lead to more driving. There is nothing preventing you from using public infrastructure wastefully precisely because it's free. Free suffers from tragedy of commons, everyone knows that. If you use housing wastefully like by keeping it vacant you personally pay for this loss yourself. You're on the hook for your own behavior. People also get to decide whether they want denser apartments meanwhile the city planner forces road construction upon you whether your neighborhood really needs it or not.
- astrange 6y ago
  > People also get to decide whether they want denser apartments meanwhile the city planner forces road construction upon you whether your neighborhood really needs it or not. This isn't really right, you're confusing 60s style city planning with the modern approach. 60s style "urban renewal" built a lot of freeways everywhere without asking and destroyed many poor neighborhoods. This caused a backlash and the start of urban environmental activism (e.g. SF getting rid of the Embarcadero highway), and urban planning switched to the exact opposite approach it uses now, which is to never do anything without 5000 community meetings. The result of this is… nothing ever happens, because the only people who show up to community meetings are retirees who don't want anything to change; nobody else has any free time. These people are less against roads than they are against houses though, because they mostly have no opinions other than hating traffic and liking free parking.