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Little League wants all your information

395 points by ColinWright 6y ago

kstrauser 6y ago
Oh hey, Hacker News! This is my post. I’m not strictly allergic to proving that I live in a certain place, so long as the evidence is securely deleted afterward. I’m very opposed to the idea that they can share all of those records with any of their partners or sponsors as they see fit. For example, “proof of residency 3” includes financial or medical records. Suppose that Large Corporation donates $1,000 to Little League. Per the privacy policy, Little League could share those financial or medical records with them. Nuts to that.
- quotha 6y ago
  I hear ya- we just had to go through this whole process and thought it absolutely ridiculous, but didn’t feel had much choice since we’d like our kids to be able to play.
  - avmich 6y ago
    The problem with web forms is that they don't allow to discuss ambiguities - like, what if a parent can't for some reason provide required information. So it's plausible that if such a form doesn't contain "other" option, then any data submitted should be as good as any other.
  - kstrauser 6y ago
    That's exactly where I'm at. I really, really didn't want to do this, but if I don't then my kid can't be on a team with his friends. That's a crummy deal.
- hirundo 6y ago
  I'd be OK with this if "trusted sponsor" meant Bob's Plumbing, and Bob's the second baseman's father who bought the team's uniforms. Sure, let Bob have my email so he can pitch me a tankless water heater. But it's as likely that they're remote conglomerates selling horrible products that damage our kids' health and shorten their lives, like Coca-Cola. And we're handing them a sheaf of vectors to insert their promotional material into our every crevice.
  - fouric 6y ago
    I'm not even OK with this. I have very little trust in the average small business' ability to protect my information, on a technical level. I have more trust in their desire to protect my information - but that's not sufficient by itself.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  I think this is just poorly written, or written to fit all use cases. There is a lot behind little league, and it’s not obvious until you get into it. I was on a little league board. In my state, we had pretty strict background check requirements, and those providers were the “trusted partners” that were given sensitive information. Now, little league volunteers are mandated reporters in New York, so the government gets information for training enrollment. The school enrollment information was used for eligibility... the eligibility requirement was to live or go to school in the territory. It frequently came up for kids in private school outside the zone or kids in shared custody arrangements. There are many edge cases, especially with shared custody, foster or arrangements where “easy” forms of required information just isn’t available for various reasons. Most “nuclear” families provided a birth certificate and any letter from a utility, bank or tax bill. Age is very important for leveling kids appropriately and keeping them safe, which is why birth certificates are required — parents are insane and go to extreme lengths (I personally encountered forged documents, parents who delayed entry into kindergarten to age 6, bogus documents from siblings or cousins, etc) to try to let older kids play in younger levels. It’s a hazard for an 11 year old to pitch or hit against 8 year olds. Little League is used as a way for folks to get kids into elite travel teams, etc. Marketing stuff was totally different and may vary by league. We wanted all communications to our folks to go through and be approved by us. “Bob the plumber” could hand out flyers, get an ad or have a blurb in an email campaign. The big companies (currently GM, Gatorade, Honda in my region) just push materials down and use contests to get personal data.
  - kstrauser 6y ago
    I personally think you're right: it was written overly broadly and allows for things that Little League would never do in practice. I think they're a good organization and didn't mean any evil when they set this up. That said, the end result is a pretty bad combination of things. It's a little annoying but not the end of the world when I start getting spam for batting cages after registration. It would be a whole different animal if I started getting ads for medicines based on the medical records I had uploaded to register. (Hypothetically speaking, of course; I'd never upload anything that sensitive, and I don't think Little League would ever actually do that.) Interestingly they never asked for proof of age. I think that happens in person with the coaches, but I haven't thought about this since about a year ago and didn't really pay attention to remember exactly how that worked.
- dusing 6y ago
  Do you recall who the service provider was for the organization. Like SportEngine (owned by NBC) etc…? I think this is a major issue since most are large companies that can and will sell that data to highest bidder.
  - kstrauser 6y ago
    It’s through Sports Connect.
  - throwawayboise 6y ago
    SportsEngine is just awful in every way. If you're on a youth sports board, push for something else. Anything else.
- Lammy 6y ago
  Requiring three separate factors of proof sounds to me like a way for that organization to implicitly filter out "undesirable" kids who may not have the most stable home life.
  - jck 6y ago
    Wow. I didn't think of this angle, but you're absolutely right. This is arguably more insidious than them just selling your data to advertisers.
- mistrial9 6y ago
  I connect the dots here historically, back to Feudal times for example, with mandatory military service to the local Boss. Cultures that are ok with this basically comply with the reporting requirements on their male children, cultures that are against this social form, object and do not comply, doing other things with childhood besides training in teams with numbers on each back. I claim that modern human social landscapes are filled with examples of both sorts of groups. On the extremes may be people who are not self-aware enough to even think about the implications of compliance, and on the other, social privilege or social isolation, to escape compliance. Without the actual consequences of war in our lifetime (in the USA), people have a lot less reason to object, and they generally don't (sheeple-theory). Personally, I strongly object to this practice, and am strongly against the "surveillance capitalism" trend overall.
- HenryBemis 6y ago
  For us non-Americans, "Little League" is: (Wikipedia) Little League Baseball and Softball is a 501 nonprofit organization based in South Williamsport, Pennsylvania, United States, that organizes LOCAL YOUTH baseball and softball leagues throughout the United States and the rest of the world. (caps are mine)
- macspoofing 6y ago
  On the face of it, it is certainly odd that so much information would be required as proof of residence. On the other side, I suspect there is a reason for that, namely, someone ruined it for the rest by trying to cheat. Some parents take kids sports very seriously and I have no doubt they would go to insane lengths to skirt any residency rules in place.
throwawaygulf 6y ago
I'm just starting to forge documents for this garbage. School records? Easy, download them, change my address to one a few miles away in the same city, change a few numbers of my SSN, etc. Same goes for utility bills, financial records, etc. Fuck the data miners. The isn't even criminal to do because I'm not defrauding anyone. The address is still one in my city. They never do any actual verification so it always works.
- bombcar 6y ago
  What’s even more asinine is that the big credit burros already provided identity as a service — I guess they don’t want to pay for that.
  - edoceo 6y ago
    Those jackasses¡
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    That costs a lot of money. “They” don’t pay — “you” as the customer pay.
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    This service is fundamentally broken. You call them on the phone and someone who seems to be located in an overseas call center asks you about your credit history. If the information on his screen does not match the information you provide, you fail identity verification. If you try to escalate they instruct you to photocopy your driver license and social security card and mail them the photocopy. Source, tried to get electricity in Tampa, Florida, after leaving the military. Was denied because TECO only was willing to “verify” my identity through Experian, and Experian <see above>.
- Turing_Machine 6y ago
  I like to use the names of famous serial killers and mass murderers when I don't feel like giving my real one. So far, no one has called me on it.
- 6y ago
sdan 6y ago
I was in Little League around 10 years ago and my parents are certain it was them who sold our info (SSN included) to advertisers since we got all sorts of junk mail and email all the time right after I joined. I'm surprised they're still doing it nowadays.
- throw10123213 6y ago
  Little League whistleblower coming in 3... 2... 1.
kjakm 6y ago
Is “Little League” a national organisation? I always assumed it just meant a kids baseball game and that would be something run by the local community. If it’s the former...why does such an organisation even need to exist?
- omni 6y ago
  Among other things, it organizes a yearly international tournament https://www.littleleague.org/world-series/2021/llbws/ https://www.littleleague.org/world-series/2021/llbws/
- kens 6y ago
  I also had always assumed that Little League was just local kids baseball, but it's a big organization that goes back to 1939. It has millions of members, its own official rules, rating system, World Series, board of directors, TV partners, and museum. It even has a federal charter in US law.[1] It's a bit alarming to discover that something you thought was casual turns out to be a giant organization. [1] https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title36/subtitle2/partB/chapter1305&edition=prelim https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title36/sub...
- Turing_Machine 6y ago
  There are a lot of local kids' baseball leagues that aren't Little League, it's worth mentioning. The one I played in when I was a kid was called "(Local Area Name) Baseball for Boys" (yeah, it was a while ago). Probably the people running Little League have all kinds of lucrative deals going on, as is the norm with "non-profits". According to the article linked below, in 2012 Little League had revenue of almost $25 million and assets of more than $85 million, and the CEO raked in $430,000 per year in salary. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2014/08/22/little-league-world-series-williamsport-pa-steve-keener/14404095/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2014/08/22/little-leag...
  - hef19898 6y ago
    One f the reasons I hate sports that rely on governing bodies so much. it is not about the sport or the athletes, i is just about the functionaries ego, power and influence. Worst are, of course, the olympic sports and commiees, immediately followed by soccer. Inever understood why I need a national olympic association to do wrestling, or the FIFA to play soccer. On the other hand, in martial arts (competitive, not traditional), you see the same thing all the time. Kickboxing assoiations springing up because one guy doesn't like the other guy. And because he wants to be able to regulate equipment, that he sells himself. Luckily, you get away ignoring that. Nobody cares if you are part of various associations. They just look at you strangely when you show up with other assiciation's ID cards. In the semi-pro segment it gets ugly so. With the assiciation setting, and judging, fights you have to play ball or you will loose. Luckily, kids are treated very kindly.
ape4 6y ago
Why do they "need" 3 proofs of residency?!
- adjkant 6y ago
  I'm reminded of the scene in The Politician where they aren't letting a high school student vote for student body president because she doesn't have her school ID on her by saying "if we let anyone vote, they would just bus in kids from other schools". Feels like about the same level of importance. I suppose you could theoretically have all the best players apply for the league in one area to try and game the system to have the best team for the little league world series, the horror!
  - kstrauser 6y ago
    I think the real problem comes when one area has a better run organization than neighboring areas. Then parents from the neighboring areas flood the registration and local kids end up getting cut from the team. That's the sort of thing I think Little League's trying to prevent.
    - adjkant 6y ago
      Are that many parents really going to have a strong enough preference between league options to forge a document? The 3 different residency proofs seems a bit wild, though I guess based on some other comments here, perhaps needed lol
      - kstrauser 6y ago
        Yes, absolutely. Of kids’ sports parents, about 98% are there to enjoy time with their kid and hope they pick up some teamwork skills. The rest are convinced that their kid is the best in the state and destined for pro sports, and will do anything they can to make that happen (even if said kid doesn’t really want it). The percentage of jerks is small, but given the number of children on organized teams it can add up.
- 6y ago
bruceb 6y ago
People complain about data harvesting (and I don't want mine harvested either) but would would also balk at paying the "true" cost of some things if the data being sold subsidy was removed. Shorter: You get what you pay for.
- kstrauser 6y ago
  Your contention is that Little League would be more expensive if they weren't allowed to sell your financial records?
  - Guest42 6y ago
    I think this position is being applied somewhat universally with no supporting data.
    - bruceb 6y ago
      Paid social networks have failed to gain traction because most people don't want to pay $10 a year. People will give up their shopping privacy for extra discounts the the super market. People buy cheap TVs that send data on what they watch which is then sold. Plenty of examples.
      - iamcurious 6y ago
        > Paid social networks have failed to gain traction because most people don't want to pay $10 a year. Is there an option where I get to pay $10 a year in already popular social networks and they guaranteed my privacy? Maybe then we could start demanding better quality. > People will give up their shopping privacy for extra discounts the the super market. Some will. Even then, they might buy some things in cash. They get to choose. > People buy cheap TVs that send data on what they watch which is then sold. I was not aware of that, is it informed in the tv packaging in a way a grandma can understand it?
- abeyer 6y ago
  Can you show some evidence that large scale data collection has been part of Little League since 1939 and pricing is based on that? Longer: People love to stand up this false dichotomy between accepting massive individual data collection or not having advertising at all. When, in fact, advertising existed for thousands of years without it and was already a huge lucrative industry.
krumpet 6y ago
This type of crap makes me so, so mad. I don't have specific examples right now, but I find it increasingly common to be asked for personal information from the most obscure sources. Ordinarily, I can choose to either not sign up or choose a different option. But with something like the only sports league in town, what's a parents supposed to do? So frustrating. Love the comment from throwawaygulf to submit fake data. Brilliant!
- newsclues 6y ago
  I was taking a university computer studies course and the cengage curriculum had a project that required setting up a LinkedIn account. I wrote a letter saying this sort of data mining for marks was stupid and abhorrent. I received no comment on my objection, just a zero.
  - posguy 6y ago
    Did you talk to your classmates and organize your classmates to take this to the Dean? Even just 5 people getting up in the middle of the class, heading straight to the dean's office and demanding to know why we are being forced to give our information to Microsoft needlessly would have likely remedied your situation that same day. If there is serious discontent in the class, forcing the dean to meet with you/your classmates immediately is a solid power move that worked for myself and my friends that went to other institutions. Show them how their professors fucked up and demand they fix it, its not the student's fault that they are teaching a crummy curriculum. Additionally, post-graduation when they sell your contact information ensure you document who contacted you using the information they sold, and escalate it with the Faculty. Framing it as data theft from the institution is a solid way to escalate to the president of your university, then you can harangue them about their terrible business practices.
    - newsclues 6y ago
      It was this past year (and I don’t like zoom) so I’ve had zero interaction with classmates. If this situation wasn’t so stupid and anger inducing, I think I’d be much more depressed about it.
tamaharbor 6y ago
I could vote three times with less information.
moron4hire 6y ago
This is a great example for why I think these sorts of data sharing agreements need to just be made completely illegal. Somebody will come around and say "well, if you don't like it, nobody is forcing you, you can just go somewhere else". And that might work for something like a blogging platform where there is so much competition and very few barriers to entry. But for a huge number of things, there are no alternatives, or the only alternatives are also operating in the same way.
aiisahik 6y ago
Speaking as someone who is has done this in their career, the data trove here would be extremely easy to monetize. No Hedge fund / Fintech company would ever turn this kinda data down the yearly licensing fee would def be in the millions. Not saying that they are doing this now but remember that once you submit this data that's going to be with LL for a long time. If they run into some situation in a few years and find this desirable, you're data is going to be part of the package. What they really should be doing is outsourcing this to another company that is specifically dedicated to identity verification (like Personia.io) and NOT collect any of the underlying documentation. But why the hell would they do that when there's so much future upside they would be giving up?
- hammock 6y ago
  What would a hedge fund do with his data?
  - Cd00d 6y ago
    Short Topps /s
- toomanybeersies 6y ago
  My guess would be that they haven't outsourced it because it would've been more difficult to go through the acquisition process than to simply an in house dev to build an upload form and do manual verification on the uploaded documents. If that is the case, then I'd be less worried about Little League selling children's personal data, and more concerned that it's all sitting unencrypted in an S3 bucket.
edoceo 6y ago
Similar things happen with other third party. Got a funny looking "secure" message from a vendor via VirTru - WTF? Another is obligating me into a check service by Deluxe. Sometimes your risk exposure is just the second party (Little League) but, with the explosion of SaaS it's like each of my vendors obligates me to get accounts at two more! Spreading my PII far and wide.
chrissnell 6y ago
Don't always assume bad intent with these sports leagues. I helped my son's tackle football league out with various organizational and website tasks because they didn't have anybody on the board that understood it well. Some parents are just better suited to teaching tackling technique than they are creating a web form that makes sense. I'm guessing that OP's league might be sponsored by the city and the city Parks & Rec staff had some city attorney come up either the requirements for the form and the T&Cs, and I'm guessing that this attorney has no kids in the program and has no internet security experience, either.
- kstrauser 6y ago
  I agree with the sentiment, but this is a national-scale website and not a Django app someone locally tossed online.
  - chrissnell 6y ago
    Gotcha. I didn't realize LL was a big, national org when I wrote that comment. Knowing this now, my guess is that this form was created at the behest of some big law firm they retained to do this kind of stuff and that these attorneys have no kids in sports. No actual sports parent would want to subject anybody to such insanity.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  Why is there any bureaucracy to Little League in the first place, though? Like why do we need to be doing any of this? > To sign kids up for our city’s Little League baseball program, you have to prove that they’re residents, which is reasonable. I don't really get that. What are we scared of here? People coming over the border to steal Little League coaching for their children? Is that a major concern somewhere?
  - throwawayboise 6y ago
    > What are we scared of here? People coming over the border to steal Little League coaching for their children? Yes, exactly this. It happens. It really does. In all sports. And not just parents seeking out "good" teams and coaches, but coaches recruiting kids to play. It gets to the point where parents put their kids in online schools, or private schools operated by a travel sports organization, so that they can get more practice time and more games.
conradev 6y ago
Do you know if this is still a thing for California residents under the CCPA? I recently received a standard letter from my financial institution around data sharing – the usual "we are going to share your data with our partners, please send back this physical letter in order to opt out". There was a little footer saying that for CA residents, the default is opt-out, and that you need to send a letter to opt-in, which is incredible.
noisy_boy 6y ago
Atleast for emails, provide one like marketingcunts1984+forlittleleague@gmail.com. Junk emails will go to that and you will know which companies they are selling your email id to. The warm feeling from a little rubbing it in will be a bonus.
- remote_phone 6y ago
  Having a cleanup script that strips the + in an email is the first thing they do.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  Better is to use a service like https://anonaddy.me https://anonaddy.me for email forwarding.
hartator 6y ago
Name and shame.
fergie 6y ago
Was forced to install and register for the Spond app for my kid's basketball team. Was very uncomfortable with the amount of personal information it forced me to enter. I dont really understand the angle with the "kids sport apps" thing. Is there some reason why they need all of this information on us, or are they using kids sport as a lever to force us to share more than we otherwise would?
water8 6y ago
You can thank Danny Almonte for that
airhead969 6y ago
"Want to go to Little League this year little Timmy?" "Why, yes please, dad." "I'm sorry, we live in an RV on a Mountain View side-street without a street address, so not this year, son." "Awh, that's okay, dad." So not only does this harvest personal data, it discriminates against homeless families. They want as much information as getting a passport or Real ID identification card. Shady.
- nicbou 6y ago
  I live in Germany, where people are required to register their official address. In return they get a registration certificate they can use in situations like this. It's a common source of frustration for foreigners, because temporary places rarely let you register, lest you become a tenant with full rights. It's also possible not to have a static address if you study or travel abroad. Yet without an official address your residence permit is invalid, and your health insurance and bank account can be terminated too. There's also a catch 22 where you need an official address to get a bank account to get a credit check to get your first apartment. You also need to register your address to get a tax ID for your employer to pay you, but it's hard to find an apartment without a job. Unfortunately, the system is designed by local people with a house and a job. It frequently fails to account for such edge cases.
torgian 6y ago
Geez man. Why does everyone want so much data now? Just for kids to play a sport. Screw that. Would rather just make my own league for kids to just play.
_vertigo 6y ago
Didn’t see it mentioned anywhere - this might be in response to a recent scandal where the US champions were found to be using players from outside their district and were stripped from their title. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disqualification_of_Jackie_Robinson_West_Little_League_from_the_2014_Little_League_World_Series#Little_League’s_investigation_and_outcome https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disqualification_of_Jackie_R... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EqauFgkYUtU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EqauFgkYUtU
cosmonaughty 6y ago
Yes it is unacceptable. Are you sure you should entrust your child to these people? If they can misuse the data, THEY WILL. Simple as that. If you don't want to be abused, then don't take the benefit. Instead there's, boating, fishing, hiking, camping, zoos, amusement parks, and sports at school. wrestling is much better than baseball for building fitness and confidence. Soccer is great, so is track and field. Martial arts are good, too, especially Ju Jitsu. You have options. Check them out before you sign anything.
aj7 6y ago
Why are you chicken to name the city?
Pacers31Colts18 6y ago
I went through this registration page on Saturday myself. At least in our league, the documents are optional.
spacemanmatt 6y ago
I did not think that simple municipal sports would be taken in by data collection contracts. But it does sound like that is what happened. Having been a victim of "sports dad turned coach" while growing up, pretty much every team and league, I cannot be surprised that a group of them decided your data was fair game.

395 points by ColinWright 6y ago

Oh hey, Hacker News! This is my post. I’m not strictly allergic to proving that I live in a certain place, so long as the evidence is securely deleted afterward. I’m very opposed to the idea that they can share all of those records with any of their partners or sponsors as they see fit. For example, “proof of residency 3” includes financial or medical records. Suppose that Large Corporation donates $1,000 to Little League. Per the privacy policy, Little League could share those financial or medical records with them. Nuts to that.

quotha 6y ago
I hear ya- we just had to go through this whole process and thought it absolutely ridiculous, but didn’t feel had much choice since we’d like our kids to be able to play.
- avmich 6y ago
  The problem with web forms is that they don't allow to discuss ambiguities - like, what if a parent can't for some reason provide required information. So it's plausible that if such a form doesn't contain "other" option, then any data submitted should be as good as any other.
- kstrauser 6y ago
  That's exactly where I'm at. I really, really didn't want to do this, but if I don't then my kid can't be on a team with his friends. That's a crummy deal.
hirundo 6y ago
I'd be OK with this if "trusted sponsor" meant Bob's Plumbing, and Bob's the second baseman's father who bought the team's uniforms. Sure, let Bob have my email so he can pitch me a tankless water heater. But it's as likely that they're remote conglomerates selling horrible products that damage our kids' health and shorten their lives, like Coca-Cola. And we're handing them a sheaf of vectors to insert their promotional material into our every crevice.
- fouric 6y ago
  I'm not even OK with this. I have very little trust in the average small business' ability to protect my information, on a technical level. I have more trust in their desire to protect my information - but that's not sufficient by itself.
Spooky23 6y ago
I think this is just poorly written, or written to fit all use cases. There is a lot behind little league, and it’s not obvious until you get into it. I was on a little league board. In my state, we had pretty strict background check requirements, and those providers were the “trusted partners” that were given sensitive information. Now, little league volunteers are mandated reporters in New York, so the government gets information for training enrollment. The school enrollment information was used for eligibility... the eligibility requirement was to live or go to school in the territory. It frequently came up for kids in private school outside the zone or kids in shared custody arrangements. There are many edge cases, especially with shared custody, foster or arrangements where “easy” forms of required information just isn’t available for various reasons. Most “nuclear” families provided a birth certificate and any letter from a utility, bank or tax bill. Age is very important for leveling kids appropriately and keeping them safe, which is why birth certificates are required — parents are insane and go to extreme lengths (I personally encountered forged documents, parents who delayed entry into kindergarten to age 6, bogus documents from siblings or cousins, etc) to try to let older kids play in younger levels. It’s a hazard for an 11 year old to pitch or hit against 8 year olds. Little League is used as a way for folks to get kids into elite travel teams, etc. Marketing stuff was totally different and may vary by league. We wanted all communications to our folks to go through and be approved by us. “Bob the plumber” could hand out flyers, get an ad or have a blurb in an email campaign. The big companies (currently GM, Gatorade, Honda in my region) just push materials down and use contests to get personal data.
- kstrauser 6y ago
  I personally think you're right: it was written overly broadly and allows for things that Little League would never do in practice. I think they're a good organization and didn't mean any evil when they set this up. That said, the end result is a pretty bad combination of things. It's a little annoying but not the end of the world when I start getting spam for batting cages after registration. It would be a whole different animal if I started getting ads for medicines based on the medical records I had uploaded to register. (Hypothetically speaking, of course; I'd never upload anything that sensitive, and I don't think Little League would ever actually do that.) Interestingly they never asked for proof of age. I think that happens in person with the coaches, but I haven't thought about this since about a year ago and didn't really pay attention to remember exactly how that worked.
dusing 6y ago
Do you recall who the service provider was for the organization. Like SportEngine (owned by NBC) etc…? I think this is a major issue since most are large companies that can and will sell that data to highest bidder.
- kstrauser 6y ago
  It’s through Sports Connect.
- throwawayboise 6y ago
  SportsEngine is just awful in every way. If you're on a youth sports board, push for something else. Anything else.
Lammy 6y ago
Requiring three separate factors of proof sounds to me like a way for that organization to implicitly filter out "undesirable" kids who may not have the most stable home life.
- jck 6y ago
  Wow. I didn't think of this angle, but you're absolutely right. This is arguably more insidious than them just selling your data to advertisers.
mistrial9 6y ago
I connect the dots here historically, back to Feudal times for example, with mandatory military service to the local Boss. Cultures that are ok with this basically comply with the reporting requirements on their male children, cultures that are against this social form, object and do not comply, doing other things with childhood besides training in teams with numbers on each back. I claim that modern human social landscapes are filled with examples of both sorts of groups. On the extremes may be people who are not self-aware enough to even think about the implications of compliance, and on the other, social privilege or social isolation, to escape compliance. Without the actual consequences of war in our lifetime (in the USA), people have a lot less reason to object, and they generally don't (sheeple-theory). Personally, I strongly object to this practice, and am strongly against the "surveillance capitalism" trend overall.
HenryBemis 6y ago
For us non-Americans, "Little League" is: (Wikipedia) Little League Baseball and Softball is a 501 nonprofit organization based in South Williamsport, Pennsylvania, United States, that organizes LOCAL YOUTH baseball and softball leagues throughout the United States and the rest of the world. (caps are mine)
macspoofing 6y ago
On the face of it, it is certainly odd that so much information would be required as proof of residence. On the other side, I suspect there is a reason for that, namely, someone ruined it for the rest by trying to cheat. Some parents take kids sports very seriously and I have no doubt they would go to insane lengths to skirt any residency rules in place.

throwawaygulf 6y ago

I'm just starting to forge documents for this garbage. School records? Easy, download them, change my address to one a few miles away in the same city, change a few numbers of my SSN, etc. Same goes for utility bills, financial records, etc. Fuck the data miners. The isn't even criminal to do because I'm not defrauding anyone. The address is still one in my city. They never do any actual verification so it always works.

bombcar 6y ago
What’s even more asinine is that the big credit burros already provided identity as a service — I guess they don’t want to pay for that.
- edoceo 6y ago
  Those jackasses¡
- Spooky23 6y ago
  That costs a lot of money. “They” don’t pay — “you” as the customer pay.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  This service is fundamentally broken. You call them on the phone and someone who seems to be located in an overseas call center asks you about your credit history. If the information on his screen does not match the information you provide, you fail identity verification. If you try to escalate they instruct you to photocopy your driver license and social security card and mail them the photocopy. Source, tried to get electricity in Tampa, Florida, after leaving the military. Was denied because TECO only was willing to “verify” my identity through Experian, and Experian <see above>.
Turing_Machine 6y ago
I like to use the names of famous serial killers and mass murderers when I don't feel like giving my real one. So far, no one has called me on it.
6y ago

sdan 6y ago

I was in Little League around 10 years ago and my parents are certain it was them who sold our info (SSN included) to advertisers since we got all sorts of junk mail and email all the time right after I joined. I'm surprised they're still doing it nowadays.

throw10123213 6y ago
Little League whistleblower coming in 3... 2... 1.

kjakm 6y ago

Is “Little League” a national organisation? I always assumed it just meant a kids baseball game and that would be something run by the local community. If it’s the former...why does such an organisation even need to exist?

omni 6y ago
Among other things, it organizes a yearly international tournament https://www.littleleague.org/world-series/2021/llbws/ https://www.littleleague.org/world-series/2021/llbws/
kens 6y ago
I also had always assumed that Little League was just local kids baseball, but it's a big organization that goes back to 1939. It has millions of members, its own official rules, rating system, World Series, board of directors, TV partners, and museum. It even has a federal charter in US law.[1] It's a bit alarming to discover that something you thought was casual turns out to be a giant organization. [1] https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title36/subtitle2/partB/chapter1305&edition=prelim https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title36/sub...
Turing_Machine 6y ago
There are a lot of local kids' baseball leagues that aren't Little League, it's worth mentioning. The one I played in when I was a kid was called "(Local Area Name) Baseball for Boys" (yeah, it was a while ago). Probably the people running Little League have all kinds of lucrative deals going on, as is the norm with "non-profits". According to the article linked below, in 2012 Little League had revenue of almost $25 million and assets of more than $85 million, and the CEO raked in $430,000 per year in salary. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2014/08/22/little-league-world-series-williamsport-pa-steve-keener/14404095/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2014/08/22/little-leag...
- hef19898 6y ago
  One f the reasons I hate sports that rely on governing bodies so much. it is not about the sport or the athletes, i is just about the functionaries ego, power and influence. Worst are, of course, the olympic sports and commiees, immediately followed by soccer. Inever understood why I need a national olympic association to do wrestling, or the FIFA to play soccer. On the other hand, in martial arts (competitive, not traditional), you see the same thing all the time. Kickboxing assoiations springing up because one guy doesn't like the other guy. And because he wants to be able to regulate equipment, that he sells himself. Luckily, you get away ignoring that. Nobody cares if you are part of various associations. They just look at you strangely when you show up with other assiciation's ID cards. In the semi-pro segment it gets ugly so. With the assiciation setting, and judging, fights you have to play ball or you will loose. Luckily, kids are treated very kindly.

ape4 6y ago

Why do they "need" 3 proofs of residency?!

adjkant 6y ago
I'm reminded of the scene in The Politician where they aren't letting a high school student vote for student body president because she doesn't have her school ID on her by saying "if we let anyone vote, they would just bus in kids from other schools". Feels like about the same level of importance. I suppose you could theoretically have all the best players apply for the league in one area to try and game the system to have the best team for the little league world series, the horror!
- kstrauser 6y ago
  I think the real problem comes when one area has a better run organization than neighboring areas. Then parents from the neighboring areas flood the registration and local kids end up getting cut from the team. That's the sort of thing I think Little League's trying to prevent.
  - adjkant 6y ago
    Are that many parents really going to have a strong enough preference between league options to forge a document? The 3 different residency proofs seems a bit wild, though I guess based on some other comments here, perhaps needed lol
    - kstrauser 6y ago
      Yes, absolutely. Of kids’ sports parents, about 98% are there to enjoy time with their kid and hope they pick up some teamwork skills. The rest are convinced that their kid is the best in the state and destined for pro sports, and will do anything they can to make that happen (even if said kid doesn’t really want it). The percentage of jerks is small, but given the number of children on organized teams it can add up.
6y ago

bruceb 6y ago

People complain about data harvesting (and I don't want mine harvested either) but would would also balk at paying the "true" cost of some things if the data being sold subsidy was removed. Shorter: You get what you pay for.

kstrauser 6y ago
Your contention is that Little League would be more expensive if they weren't allowed to sell your financial records?
- Guest42 6y ago
  I think this position is being applied somewhat universally with no supporting data.
  - bruceb 6y ago
    Paid social networks have failed to gain traction because most people don't want to pay $10 a year. People will give up their shopping privacy for extra discounts the the super market. People buy cheap TVs that send data on what they watch which is then sold. Plenty of examples.
    - iamcurious 6y ago
      > Paid social networks have failed to gain traction because most people don't want to pay $10 a year. Is there an option where I get to pay $10 a year in already popular social networks and they guaranteed my privacy? Maybe then we could start demanding better quality. > People will give up their shopping privacy for extra discounts the the super market. Some will. Even then, they might buy some things in cash. They get to choose. > People buy cheap TVs that send data on what they watch which is then sold. I was not aware of that, is it informed in the tv packaging in a way a grandma can understand it?
abeyer 6y ago
Can you show some evidence that large scale data collection has been part of Little League since 1939 and pricing is based on that? Longer: People love to stand up this false dichotomy between accepting massive individual data collection or not having advertising at all. When, in fact, advertising existed for thousands of years without it and was already a huge lucrative industry.

krumpet 6y ago

This type of crap makes me so, so mad. I don't have specific examples right now, but I find it increasingly common to be asked for personal information from the most obscure sources. Ordinarily, I can choose to either not sign up or choose a different option. But with something like the only sports league in town, what's a parents supposed to do? So frustrating. Love the comment from throwawaygulf to submit fake data. Brilliant!

newsclues 6y ago
I was taking a university computer studies course and the cengage curriculum had a project that required setting up a LinkedIn account. I wrote a letter saying this sort of data mining for marks was stupid and abhorrent. I received no comment on my objection, just a zero.
- posguy 6y ago
  Did you talk to your classmates and organize your classmates to take this to the Dean? Even just 5 people getting up in the middle of the class, heading straight to the dean's office and demanding to know why we are being forced to give our information to Microsoft needlessly would have likely remedied your situation that same day. If there is serious discontent in the class, forcing the dean to meet with you/your classmates immediately is a solid power move that worked for myself and my friends that went to other institutions. Show them how their professors fucked up and demand they fix it, its not the student's fault that they are teaching a crummy curriculum. Additionally, post-graduation when they sell your contact information ensure you document who contacted you using the information they sold, and escalate it with the Faculty. Framing it as data theft from the institution is a solid way to escalate to the president of your university, then you can harangue them about their terrible business practices.
  - newsclues 6y ago
    It was this past year (and I don’t like zoom) so I’ve had zero interaction with classmates. If this situation wasn’t so stupid and anger inducing, I think I’d be much more depressed about it.

tamaharbor 6y ago

I could vote three times with less information.

moron4hire 6y ago

This is a great example for why I think these sorts of data sharing agreements need to just be made completely illegal. Somebody will come around and say "well, if you don't like it, nobody is forcing you, you can just go somewhere else". And that might work for something like a blogging platform where there is so much competition and very few barriers to entry. But for a huge number of things, there are no alternatives, or the only alternatives are also operating in the same way.

aiisahik 6y ago

Speaking as someone who is has done this in their career, the data trove here would be extremely easy to monetize. No Hedge fund / Fintech company would ever turn this kinda data down the yearly licensing fee would def be in the millions. Not saying that they are doing this now but remember that once you submit this data that's going to be with LL for a long time. If they run into some situation in a few years and find this desirable, you're data is going to be part of the package. What they really should be doing is outsourcing this to another company that is specifically dedicated to identity verification (like Personia.io) and NOT collect any of the underlying documentation. But why the hell would they do that when there's so much future upside they would be giving up?

hammock 6y ago
What would a hedge fund do with his data?
- Cd00d 6y ago
  Short Topps /s
toomanybeersies 6y ago
My guess would be that they haven't outsourced it because it would've been more difficult to go through the acquisition process than to simply an in house dev to build an upload form and do manual verification on the uploaded documents. If that is the case, then I'd be less worried about Little League selling children's personal data, and more concerned that it's all sitting unencrypted in an S3 bucket.

edoceo 6y ago

Similar things happen with other third party. Got a funny looking "secure" message from a vendor via VirTru - WTF? Another is obligating me into a check service by Deluxe. Sometimes your risk exposure is just the second party (Little League) but, with the explosion of SaaS it's like each of my vendors obligates me to get accounts at two more! Spreading my PII far and wide.

chrissnell 6y ago

Don't always assume bad intent with these sports leagues. I helped my son's tackle football league out with various organizational and website tasks because they didn't have anybody on the board that understood it well. Some parents are just better suited to teaching tackling technique than they are creating a web form that makes sense. I'm guessing that OP's league might be sponsored by the city and the city Parks & Rec staff had some city attorney come up either the requirements for the form and the T&Cs, and I'm guessing that this attorney has no kids in the program and has no internet security experience, either.

kstrauser 6y ago
I agree with the sentiment, but this is a national-scale website and not a Django app someone locally tossed online.
- chrissnell 6y ago
  Gotcha. I didn't realize LL was a big, national org when I wrote that comment. Knowing this now, my guess is that this form was created at the behest of some big law firm they retained to do this kind of stuff and that these attorneys have no kids in sports. No actual sports parent would want to subject anybody to such insanity.
chrisseaton 6y ago
Why is there any bureaucracy to Little League in the first place, though? Like why do we need to be doing any of this? > To sign kids up for our city’s Little League baseball program, you have to prove that they’re residents, which is reasonable. I don't really get that. What are we scared of here? People coming over the border to steal Little League coaching for their children? Is that a major concern somewhere?
- throwawayboise 6y ago
  > What are we scared of here? People coming over the border to steal Little League coaching for their children? Yes, exactly this. It happens. It really does. In all sports. And not just parents seeking out "good" teams and coaches, but coaches recruiting kids to play. It gets to the point where parents put their kids in online schools, or private schools operated by a travel sports organization, so that they can get more practice time and more games.

conradev 6y ago

Do you know if this is still a thing for California residents under the CCPA? I recently received a standard letter from my financial institution around data sharing – the usual "we are going to share your data with our partners, please send back this physical letter in order to opt out". There was a little footer saying that for CA residents, the default is opt-out, and that you need to send a letter to opt-in, which is incredible.

noisy_boy 6y ago

Atleast for emails, provide one like marketingcunts1984+forlittleleague@gmail.com. Junk emails will go to that and you will know which companies they are selling your email id to. The warm feeling from a little rubbing it in will be a bonus.

remote_phone 6y ago
Having a cleanup script that strips the + in an email is the first thing they do.
sebmellen 6y ago
Better is to use a service like https://anonaddy.me https://anonaddy.me for email forwarding.

hartator 6y ago

Name and shame.

fergie 6y ago

Was forced to install and register for the Spond app for my kid's basketball team. Was very uncomfortable with the amount of personal information it forced me to enter. I dont really understand the angle with the "kids sport apps" thing. Is there some reason why they need all of this information on us, or are they using kids sport as a lever to force us to share more than we otherwise would?

water8 6y ago

You can thank Danny Almonte for that

airhead969 6y ago

"Want to go to Little League this year little Timmy?" "Why, yes please, dad." "I'm sorry, we live in an RV on a Mountain View side-street without a street address, so not this year, son." "Awh, that's okay, dad." So not only does this harvest personal data, it discriminates against homeless families. They want as much information as getting a passport or Real ID identification card. Shady.

nicbou 6y ago
I live in Germany, where people are required to register their official address. In return they get a registration certificate they can use in situations like this. It's a common source of frustration for foreigners, because temporary places rarely let you register, lest you become a tenant with full rights. It's also possible not to have a static address if you study or travel abroad. Yet without an official address your residence permit is invalid, and your health insurance and bank account can be terminated too. There's also a catch 22 where you need an official address to get a bank account to get a credit check to get your first apartment. You also need to register your address to get a tax ID for your employer to pay you, but it's hard to find an apartment without a job. Unfortunately, the system is designed by local people with a house and a job. It frequently fails to account for such edge cases.

torgian 6y ago

Geez man. Why does everyone want so much data now? Just for kids to play a sport. Screw that. Would rather just make my own league for kids to just play.

_vertigo 6y ago

Didn’t see it mentioned anywhere - this might be in response to a recent scandal where the US champions were found to be using players from outside their district and were stripped from their title. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disqualification_of_Jackie_Robinson_West_Little_League_from_the_2014_Little_League_World_Series#Little_League’s_investigation_and_outcome https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disqualification_of_Jackie_R... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EqauFgkYUtU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EqauFgkYUtU

cosmonaughty 6y ago

Yes it is unacceptable. Are you sure you should entrust your child to these people? If they can misuse the data, THEY WILL. Simple as that. If you don't want to be abused, then don't take the benefit. Instead there's, boating, fishing, hiking, camping, zoos, amusement parks, and sports at school. wrestling is much better than baseball for building fitness and confidence. Soccer is great, so is track and field. Martial arts are good, too, especially Ju Jitsu. You have options. Check them out before you sign anything.

aj7 6y ago

Why are you chicken to name the city?

Pacers31Colts18 6y ago

I went through this registration page on Saturday myself. At least in our league, the documents are optional.

spacemanmatt 6y ago

I did not think that simple municipal sports would be taken in by data collection contracts. But it does sound like that is what happened. Having been a victim of "sports dad turned coach" while growing up, pretty much every team and league, I cannot be surprised that a group of them decided your data was fair game.