24 ms·

"thin as an XPS 13, repairable as a custom-built gaming PC" was not actually a direct quote from us, but it's nice that the folks at Ars think of our design tha

by nrp 6y ago

"thin as an XPS 13, repairable as a custom-built gaming PC" was not actually a direct quote from us, but it's nice that the folks at Ars think of our design that way!

Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
All the best, Nirav. Long lasting repairable computing hardware is what we need now and goes a long way than just not including the charger within the box.
bo1024 6y ago
Good luck, very excited for this! Any chance of a Linux or no-OS option?
- 1stcity3rdcoast 6y ago
  The article says there's a linux/no-os option
  - aidenn0 6y ago
    But only if you order the kit, not if you get it preassembled I believe.
    - jdormit 6y ago
      Nothing stopping just installing linux on the preassembled one when you get I though, I assume. Although I guess you may have to pay for a Windows license in that case...
      - zorrolovsky 6y ago
        Yes, and that's the issue with most computers today: there's no way to opt out to Windows. Whether you like it or not, licensing cost is blended into the computer and even if you don't use Windows you're somehow supporting a company that you might not want to support. I undertand in 99.9% of cases people just want to buy a laptop, turn it on and have it working. But I also think there should be an easy way to opt out of Windows enforced by law so that MS don't bang up numbers due to shady commercial practices.
        aidenn0 6y ago
        My understanding is that companies are worried about being perceived as tacitly supporting piracy if they ship with no OS. I know, for example, HP will not sell you a laptop with no OS, but they will sell you one with FreeDOS.
        not2b 6y ago
        In many cases, the cost of the license to the OEM is negative. That's because the cost of the Windows license is more than outweighed by the payments they get for crapware, adware, and 30-day trials, they get paid to pre-install (and the crapware requires Windows). It would actually cost them more to ship with no OS.
        Silhouette 6y ago
        That's been true historically in a lot of cases, but isn't the whole point of the Framework to do things in a different and better way? It would be very disappointing if a laptop like this was shipping with that kind of junkware installed as standard even on a Windows pre-install. In fact, it would instantly reverse my position having just heard about these guys from something like "I wish you luck, this is a much healthier direction to push the industry in, and by the way let me know when it's available in the UK because I am definitely a potential customer" to something I won't repeat here that involves not wanting anything to do with them or their products.
        nrp 6y ago
        No need to worry! Our Windows pre-install is vanilla. The only software added is the set of drivers strictly needed to make the hardware function.
        Silhouette 6y ago
        Good answer. In that case, I shall remain happy to have discovered you today and I shall continue to wish you luck in shifting the market in healthier directions. :-) FWIW, I'd be much more interested in your products as a solid platform for running Linux than whatever junk MS is including in Windows 10 this week anyway. But sometimes small issues can say a disproportionate amount about where a business really stands on some issues I care about, and things like having control over my own hardware and software for reasons ranging from longevity to privacy are high on my personal list.
    - Brakenshire 6y ago
      It’s not the end of the world, but not everyone who uses Linux enjoys tinkering, some just want solid out of the box support for Ubuntu, Fedora, etc.
      - Valkhyr 6y ago
        Yep. I love Linux but hate having to futz around to get basic stuff working. I'm ready to mess with some things like display orientation on non-standard hardware like a GPD Pocket to some extent, since you can't really expect full out of the box support there, but when it comes to a proper laptop I'm averse to OS-level tinkering just to make stuff work (as opposed to tinkering in order to customize to my preferences).
    - nrp 6y ago
      This is correct. There’s nothing technical preventing us from offering a pre-built bring your own OS system, but we figured there’s high overlap between that audience and those who want to assemble a kit themselves. This reduces the amount of pre-built inventory we need to hold.
      - reasonabl_human 6y ago
        I get the business case of universal pre-built inventory, but offering a Linux version out of the box signals that all hardware is compatible and fully functional... supported at a first-party level. More and more developers in big tech companies using Linux just expect it to work and aren’t interested in monkeying around with drivers and configs.. not to say they can’t, but why increase friction for your dev setup? This is one of the reasons why the XPS 13 Developer edition exists. Guaranteed first party support for Linux.. you know the next kernel or major revision won’t Bork your setup... you can just focus on working within the env. Offering a preinstalled Linux variant captures the market referenced above, and signals to tinkerers that this is a good platform to build on since all hardware is supported without jenky workarounds. Alternatively, if you can’t make offering dedicated Linux installs an economically feasible thing, then perhaps offer a mirror or set of instructions to set up latest LTS builds of various Linux flavors, to indicate full compatibility? Because that is the real selling point. Knowing all of your hardware is supported as a first party product. That’s one of the biggest reasons why I chose an XPS this time around, and considered a System76 machine as well.
        bo1024 6y ago
        nrp's reply makes complete sense, but I like this argument as well.
        Valkhyr 6y ago
        Seconded. I don't really need Linux pre-installed, but when I make a buying decision I would be much more likely to buy a laptop that is (a) guaranteed to be fully compatible with Linux out of the box, and that (b) the manufacturer will honor their warranty no matter which OS I choose to run. That said, I think offering Linux pre-installed would be very nice as a signaling function to attract technical-minded users.
1stcity3rdcoast 6y ago
This is super exciting and I can't wait to see the machines in the wild. Congrats on the launch!
IQunder130 6y ago
I hope this business of yours works out because a laptop that isn't a piece of junk with too much stuff I don't need inflating the price is something I've been wanting for a long time.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  I've still never seen a PC with a sane touchpad. That's the first issue in a long tail of grievances with the PC laptop ecosystem. EDIT: This isn't a generic "pro-Mac" dig, I want a nice PC laptop because I like dabbling with Linux; however, even the high end trackpads are clunky, even with the pre-installed Windows (never mind the eternal sadness that is Linux trackpad configuration).
  - boogies 6y ago
    I’ve never understood why people⁰ care so much about trackpads. For working with text (including code) keyboards are better, and for gaming mice are better. Where I'm less sure is graphics and video, but it seems to me like specialized mice, graphics tablets, and other tools (eg. https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/keyboard https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/key... and https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/panels https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/pan...) are better. The only thing trackpads seem good at is browsing¹, which IMO should be a slightly glorified text task where Pentadacyl/luakit/qutebrowser/etc.² vi-style keybindings³ are best. Edits to respond: My point is that most tasks are either ① best done in a good text editing / development environment that works well with a specialized text input device — a keyboard — or ② would be better done with a specialized non-keyboard, non-trackpad input device (eg. a gaming mouse, graphics tablet, etc.) ⁰especially here on HN ¹including scrolling through PDFs and other documents ²or Zathura or less ³and/or/including PageUp/Down, Home, and End on luxurious large keyboards. Space and Shift+Space are okay on smaller ones.
    - the_hoser 6y ago
      When done right, they're wonderful. When done wrong, you end up creating custom keybindings to augment your workflow and lug a mouse around when that doesn't cut it. I've never seen a PC laptop do it right.
JustSomeNobody 6y ago
Good luck! I really hope this works out. So excited.
Elof 6y ago
Really stoked for this. Good luck
samstave 6y ago
Just an anecdote on the value of modular and repairable hardware: Compaq vs Sun: I was the IT Director for Decide.com in ~1998-ish and we had a bunch of compaq servers and a bunch of SUN servers... At the time - SUN was *giving* servers to startups to adopt their HW. I had to build out a ton of systems in various DCs and the SUN machines were not rack-mountable, but were like $50,000 a unit... and they had this *security* feature where-by the machine would not boot up if the external case was not properly put on... BUT - I could rebuild a compaq server in the dark with my eyes closed. I had a compaq engineer who was delivering a replacement server and watched me rebuild that machine in no time. The thing was that the engineering of the compaqs was so consistent and well done that it took single digit minutes to rebuild an entire 4U machine vs the behemoth SUNS that bitched when their cover wasn't properly sealed.
- durst 6y ago
  Very cool! Did others in the company appreciate the benefits of repairable hardware? Also, $50,000 sounds like a lot of money. Was that price considered giving it away?
  - hedora 6y ago
    First one’s free. Edit: in hindsight it was a terrible marketing strategy. It meant that 100% of new customers had budget left over to spend on risky whitebox machines. I have fond memories of an AMD Linux cluster that ran circles around a Sun workstation. The workstation cost 10x more than the entire cluster.
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    $50,000 sounds like a lot of money For a server in the 90's, it sounds pretty cheap to me. Apple's Xserves started at $3,000, and I've read they were considered underpowered. Sun was a premium company for heavy lifting. The company I worked for at the time was into Silicon Graphics, and those machines were five figures a pop just for desktops.
    - samstave 6y ago
Alupis 6y ago
Any chance of one that doesn't look like a Macbook clone? I, personally, am tired of the brushed aluminum with black bezels and keyboard look. The materials can remain the same, but some colored options would be wonderful - like the HP Spectre x360's with blue and black options, etc. Everything else looks wonderful, particularly the mobo upgrades for newer CPU/GPU combinations... and even better - getting to choose the ports I need! Love that!
- AceJohnny2 6y ago
  Thanks to Apple, there's probably a solid "aluminium case" manufacturing pipeline that Framework might be able to leverage. That's a wild guess though, I can imagine Apple keeping that tightly under their thumbs. Extra colors add cost. You have to plan for which colors might be popular, and which won't, in which case you'd have to sell at a discount to get rid of inventory. I'd be surprised if Framework offered that out of the gate.
  - Judgmentality 6y ago
    > Thanks to Apple, there's probably a solid "aluminium case" manufacturing pipeline that Framework might be able to leverage. Apple literally has buildings filled with thousands of CNC machines milling aluminum laptop cases. Apple does not manufacture things the same way as the rest of the industry, as they have the money and the scale to do whatever the fuck they want. https://beneinstein.medium.com/no-you-cant-manufacture-that-like-apple-does-93bea02a3bbf https://beneinstein.medium.com/no-you-cant-manufacture-that-...
    - Waterluvian 6y ago
      And it shows. I've never had an aluminum laptop feel like a macbook chassis. There's just something about the thickness? Rigidity?
      - airbreather 6y ago
        I have Xaiomi mac like clone that was less than half the price for same specs and the body is totally ridged aluminum.
sydd 6y ago
I really like the concept, congrats on making it a product! For me I have 3 concerns: 1. I'd never use a 13" laptop it's too small for work for me. Any chance of a 15" version? It'd be also cool if it could be used to light gaming (e.g. an Nvidia 1650 included) 2. Pricing. If this will be priced as Macbook pros you will have a very niche segment as customers (basically silicon valley tech people) 3. As I'm in the EU shipping needs to have a sane price (I can understand if this is not the priority at the start)
- hansel_der 6y ago
  all valid concerns i would add my voice to allthou i'd say 14" screen is the sweetspot between portable and watching movies
eecc 6y ago
Will you consider designing the chassis to be coffee-spill resistant? (if it's not already) Also, will you consider establishing an EU warehouse to reduce shipping and customs overhead?
Waterluvian 6y ago
I really really really want this to be a real thing. Good luck!!!
k_sze 6y ago
I can’t stand small screens, so here’s me hoping you’ll make a 15” or 16” model with 4K screen soon after this one. Also looking forward to AMD or ARM instead of Intel.
TimTheTinker 6y ago
Any chance you’d consider an ARM64 architecture in the future (like a Broadcom SOC)?
fock 6y ago
so compared to a run-of-the-mill Lenovo/HP/Dell - where I still can get all parts 5 years after buying it - the innovation is that you have decoupled the I/O ports with your modules, which might reduce wear and failure there. Given that swapping the mainboard will probably just be as expensive for you as for the aforementioned devices (where some by Fujitsu even had standardized mainboards ;)) + you probably command a significant premium in the beginning: I really don't get the value/eco proposition except for reusing the frame/Display (the latter of which will eventually break as well). Do you at least plan to release schematics so people can try to understand failure modes of the actual things most of us without extensive resources can't repair today? ~ typed on a Lenovo T440s (4GB soldered RAM unfortunately): swapped the touchpad for the one from the 450s, replaced the fan, after it made noises, started with a tiny m.2-SATA, then upgraded to a spare SATA from the Desktop, updated the screen after it broke. Now the bottom shell has a dent in it (full backpack) but I think I'll let it pass. Still seems pretty repairable to me.
tw04 6y ago
Any plans to support AMD chips?

by nrp 6y ago

"thin as an XPS 13, repairable as a custom-built gaming PC" was not actually a direct quote from us, but it's nice that the folks at Ars think of our design that way!

Abishek_Muthian 6y ago

All the best, Nirav. Long lasting repairable computing hardware is what we need now and goes a long way than just not including the charger within the box.

bo1024 6y ago

Good luck, very excited for this! Any chance of a Linux or no-OS option?

1stcity3rdcoast 6y ago
The article says there's a linux/no-os option
- aidenn0 6y ago
  But only if you order the kit, not if you get it preassembled I believe.
  - jdormit 6y ago
    Nothing stopping just installing linux on the preassembled one when you get I though, I assume. Although I guess you may have to pay for a Windows license in that case...
    - zorrolovsky 6y ago
      Yes, and that's the issue with most computers today: there's no way to opt out to Windows. Whether you like it or not, licensing cost is blended into the computer and even if you don't use Windows you're somehow supporting a company that you might not want to support. I undertand in 99.9% of cases people just want to buy a laptop, turn it on and have it working. But I also think there should be an easy way to opt out of Windows enforced by law so that MS don't bang up numbers due to shady commercial practices.
      - aidenn0 6y ago
        My understanding is that companies are worried about being perceived as tacitly supporting piracy if they ship with no OS. I know, for example, HP will not sell you a laptop with no OS, but they will sell you one with FreeDOS.
      - not2b 6y ago
        In many cases, the cost of the license to the OEM is negative. That's because the cost of the Windows license is more than outweighed by the payments they get for crapware, adware, and 30-day trials, they get paid to pre-install (and the crapware requires Windows). It would actually cost them more to ship with no OS.
        Silhouette 6y ago
        That's been true historically in a lot of cases, but isn't the whole point of the Framework to do things in a different and better way? It would be very disappointing if a laptop like this was shipping with that kind of junkware installed as standard even on a Windows pre-install. In fact, it would instantly reverse my position having just heard about these guys from something like "I wish you luck, this is a much healthier direction to push the industry in, and by the way let me know when it's available in the UK because I am definitely a potential customer" to something I won't repeat here that involves not wanting anything to do with them or their products.
        nrp 6y ago
        No need to worry! Our Windows pre-install is vanilla. The only software added is the set of drivers strictly needed to make the hardware function.
        Silhouette 6y ago
        Good answer. In that case, I shall remain happy to have discovered you today and I shall continue to wish you luck in shifting the market in healthier directions. :-) FWIW, I'd be much more interested in your products as a solid platform for running Linux than whatever junk MS is including in Windows 10 this week anyway. But sometimes small issues can say a disproportionate amount about where a business really stands on some issues I care about, and things like having control over my own hardware and software for reasons ranging from longevity to privacy are high on my personal list.
  - Brakenshire 6y ago
    It’s not the end of the world, but not everyone who uses Linux enjoys tinkering, some just want solid out of the box support for Ubuntu, Fedora, etc.
    - Valkhyr 6y ago
      Yep. I love Linux but hate having to futz around to get basic stuff working. I'm ready to mess with some things like display orientation on non-standard hardware like a GPD Pocket to some extent, since you can't really expect full out of the box support there, but when it comes to a proper laptop I'm averse to OS-level tinkering just to make stuff work (as opposed to tinkering in order to customize to my preferences).
  - nrp 6y ago
    This is correct. There’s nothing technical preventing us from offering a pre-built bring your own OS system, but we figured there’s high overlap between that audience and those who want to assemble a kit themselves. This reduces the amount of pre-built inventory we need to hold.
    - reasonabl_human 6y ago
      I get the business case of universal pre-built inventory, but offering a Linux version out of the box signals that all hardware is compatible and fully functional... supported at a first-party level. More and more developers in big tech companies using Linux just expect it to work and aren’t interested in monkeying around with drivers and configs.. not to say they can’t, but why increase friction for your dev setup? This is one of the reasons why the XPS 13 Developer edition exists. Guaranteed first party support for Linux.. you know the next kernel or major revision won’t Bork your setup... you can just focus on working within the env. Offering a preinstalled Linux variant captures the market referenced above, and signals to tinkerers that this is a good platform to build on since all hardware is supported without jenky workarounds. Alternatively, if you can’t make offering dedicated Linux installs an economically feasible thing, then perhaps offer a mirror or set of instructions to set up latest LTS builds of various Linux flavors, to indicate full compatibility? Because that is the real selling point. Knowing all of your hardware is supported as a first party product. That’s one of the biggest reasons why I chose an XPS this time around, and considered a System76 machine as well.
      - bo1024 6y ago
        nrp's reply makes complete sense, but I like this argument as well.
      - Valkhyr 6y ago
        Seconded. I don't really need Linux pre-installed, but when I make a buying decision I would be much more likely to buy a laptop that is (a) guaranteed to be fully compatible with Linux out of the box, and that (b) the manufacturer will honor their warranty no matter which OS I choose to run. That said, I think offering Linux pre-installed would be very nice as a signaling function to attract technical-minded users.

1stcity3rdcoast 6y ago

This is super exciting and I can't wait to see the machines in the wild. Congrats on the launch!

IQunder130 6y ago

I hope this business of yours works out because a laptop that isn't a piece of junk with too much stuff I don't need inflating the price is something I've been wanting for a long time.

throwaway894345 6y ago
I've still never seen a PC with a sane touchpad. That's the first issue in a long tail of grievances with the PC laptop ecosystem. EDIT: This isn't a generic "pro-Mac" dig, I want a nice PC laptop because I like dabbling with Linux; however, even the high end trackpads are clunky, even with the pre-installed Windows (never mind the eternal sadness that is Linux trackpad configuration).
- boogies 6y ago
  I’ve never understood why people⁰ care so much about trackpads. For working with text (including code) keyboards are better, and for gaming mice are better. Where I'm less sure is graphics and video, but it seems to me like specialized mice, graphics tablets, and other tools (eg. https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/keyboard https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/key... and https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/panels https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/pan...) are better. The only thing trackpads seem good at is browsing¹, which IMO should be a slightly glorified text task where Pentadacyl/luakit/qutebrowser/etc.² vi-style keybindings³ are best. Edits to respond: My point is that most tasks are either ① best done in a good text editing / development environment that works well with a specialized text input device — a keyboard — or ② would be better done with a specialized non-keyboard, non-trackpad input device (eg. a gaming mouse, graphics tablet, etc.) ⁰especially here on HN ¹including scrolling through PDFs and other documents ²or Zathura or less ³and/or/including PageUp/Down, Home, and End on luxurious large keyboards. Space and Shift+Space are okay on smaller ones.
  - the_hoser 6y ago
    When done right, they're wonderful. When done wrong, you end up creating custom keybindings to augment your workflow and lug a mouse around when that doesn't cut it. I've never seen a PC laptop do it right.

JustSomeNobody 6y ago

Good luck! I really hope this works out. So excited.

Elof 6y ago

Really stoked for this. Good luck

samstave 6y ago

Just an anecdote on the value of modular and repairable hardware: Compaq vs Sun: I was the IT Director for Decide.com in ~1998-ish and we had a bunch of compaq servers and a bunch of SUN servers... At the time - SUN was *giving* servers to startups to adopt their HW. I had to build out a ton of systems in various DCs and the SUN machines were not rack-mountable, but were like $50,000 a unit... and they had this *security* feature where-by the machine would not boot up if the external case was not properly put on... BUT - I could rebuild a compaq server in the dark with my eyes closed. I had a compaq engineer who was delivering a replacement server and watched me rebuild that machine in no time. The thing was that the engineering of the compaqs was so consistent and well done that it took single digit minutes to rebuild an entire 4U machine vs the behemoth SUNS that bitched when their cover wasn't properly sealed.

durst 6y ago
Very cool! Did others in the company appreciate the benefits of repairable hardware? Also, $50,000 sounds like a lot of money. Was that price considered giving it away?
- hedora 6y ago
  First one’s free. Edit: in hindsight it was a terrible marketing strategy. It meant that 100% of new customers had budget left over to spend on risky whitebox machines. I have fond memories of an AMD Linux cluster that ran circles around a Sun workstation. The workstation cost 10x more than the entire cluster.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  $50,000 sounds like a lot of money For a server in the 90's, it sounds pretty cheap to me. Apple's Xserves started at $3,000, and I've read they were considered underpowered. Sun was a premium company for heavy lifting. The company I worked for at the time was into Silicon Graphics, and those machines were five figures a pop just for desktops.
  - samstave 6y ago

Alupis 6y ago

Any chance of one that doesn't look like a Macbook clone? I, personally, am tired of the brushed aluminum with black bezels and keyboard look. The materials can remain the same, but some colored options would be wonderful - like the HP Spectre x360's with blue and black options, etc. Everything else looks wonderful, particularly the mobo upgrades for newer CPU/GPU combinations... and even better - getting to choose the ports I need! Love that!

AceJohnny2 6y ago
Thanks to Apple, there's probably a solid "aluminium case" manufacturing pipeline that Framework might be able to leverage. That's a wild guess though, I can imagine Apple keeping that tightly under their thumbs. Extra colors add cost. You have to plan for which colors might be popular, and which won't, in which case you'd have to sell at a discount to get rid of inventory. I'd be surprised if Framework offered that out of the gate.
- Judgmentality 6y ago
  > Thanks to Apple, there's probably a solid "aluminium case" manufacturing pipeline that Framework might be able to leverage. Apple literally has buildings filled with thousands of CNC machines milling aluminum laptop cases. Apple does not manufacture things the same way as the rest of the industry, as they have the money and the scale to do whatever the fuck they want. https://beneinstein.medium.com/no-you-cant-manufacture-that-like-apple-does-93bea02a3bbf https://beneinstein.medium.com/no-you-cant-manufacture-that-...
  - Waterluvian 6y ago
    And it shows. I've never had an aluminum laptop feel like a macbook chassis. There's just something about the thickness? Rigidity?
    - airbreather 6y ago
      I have Xaiomi mac like clone that was less than half the price for same specs and the body is totally ridged aluminum.

sydd 6y ago

I really like the concept, congrats on making it a product! For me I have 3 concerns: 1. I'd never use a 13" laptop it's too small for work for me. Any chance of a 15" version? It'd be also cool if it could be used to light gaming (e.g. an Nvidia 1650 included) 2. Pricing. If this will be priced as Macbook pros you will have a very niche segment as customers (basically silicon valley tech people) 3. As I'm in the EU shipping needs to have a sane price (I can understand if this is not the priority at the start)

hansel_der 6y ago
all valid concerns i would add my voice to allthou i'd say 14" screen is the sweetspot between portable and watching movies

eecc 6y ago

Will you consider designing the chassis to be coffee-spill resistant? (if it's not already) Also, will you consider establishing an EU warehouse to reduce shipping and customs overhead?

Waterluvian 6y ago

I really really really want this to be a real thing. Good luck!!!

k_sze 6y ago

I can’t stand small screens, so here’s me hoping you’ll make a 15” or 16” model with 4K screen soon after this one. Also looking forward to AMD or ARM instead of Intel.

TimTheTinker 6y ago

Any chance you’d consider an ARM64 architecture in the future (like a Broadcom SOC)?

fock 6y ago

so compared to a run-of-the-mill Lenovo/HP/Dell - where I still can get all parts 5 years after buying it - the innovation is that you have decoupled the I/O ports with your modules, which might reduce wear and failure there. Given that swapping the mainboard will probably just be as expensive for you as for the aforementioned devices (where some by Fujitsu even had standardized mainboards ;)) + you probably command a significant premium in the beginning: I really don't get the value/eco proposition except for reusing the frame/Display (the latter of which will eventually break as well). Do you at least plan to release schematics so people can try to understand failure modes of the actual things most of us without extensive resources can't repair today? ~ typed on a Lenovo T440s (4GB soldered RAM unfortunately): swapped the touchpad for the one from the 450s, replaced the fan, after it made noises, started with a tiny m.2-SATA, then upgraded to a spare SATA from the Desktop, updated the screen after it broke. Now the bottom shell has a dent in it (full backpack) but I think I'll let it pass. Still seems pretty repairable to me.

tw04 6y ago

Any plans to support AMD chips?