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Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide
- legostormtroopr 6y agoYes - we know this. We've known this for a long time. The question is what now? Western nations have shown no political will to stand up to China.
- crashdelta 6y agoThe powers that be do not care, because they're Muslims.
- yumraj 6y agoDo the Muslim countries care, No!
- crashdelta 6y agoThat's the interesting part TBH... why is nobody sticking up for them?
- elefanten 6y agoBecause for all the crap people give America for conducting foreign policy according to its economic interests, everybody else does the same. And right now, doing business with China is lucrative because of their human misery arbitrage.
- duxup 6y agoThe willingness to take a financial / trade hit for a random group of people hasn't been a common event as far as governments go... much ever? Sad but that seems to be the case.
- ralph84 6y agoMuslims are hardly a unified front. Look at how many majority-Muslim countries have had civil wars or wars against each other at some point in the last 30 years.
- zaik 6y agoIn politics, everything happens primarily to gain or maintain power. If some group of people is not relevant for either, people in power will not stick up for them.
- cirgue 6y agoBecause Muslim countries by and large are not in geopolitical or economic positions to act unilaterally in any way that is a)remotely effective, and b) not massively costly in economic and political terms.
- api 6y agoEveryone is utterly dependent on cheap Chinese manufacturing. The price of manufactured goods would probably quadruple overnight if companies had to abandon China. It’s not just cheap labor. China has all of cheap labor, lax environmental laws, cheap energy, a very manufacturing friendly government, a tech ecosystem, local expertise, and infrastructure. It’s literally the ideal place to manufacture, at least from an amoral economic perspective. Nobody can compete with China in manufacturing except in niche high skill areas.
- joe433343 6y agoBecause its impossible to say fuck allah in front of a muslim Eduated or not they are way too conformance to religion. I can the same to a christian or any other religion friends and joke about it and does not have to fear.
- Thorrez 6y agoHow is that relevant to the question of why Muslim-majority countries aren't sticking up for Uighurs?
- Frypa 6y agoAs a muslim, I can tell you that muslims and even non-muslims care a lot. It's a human thing. Muslim countries are 99% dictatorships, where the leadership doesn't even care about their own people.
- nashashmi 6y agoWhen the Holocaust was happening, no one cared. The holocaust was stopped because it aligned with a different interest: to stop nazi Germany. The holocaust was only to make the nazi look bad. Otherwise no one cared about Jews either.
- _-david-_ 6y agoMost people did not know about the Holocaust until after WW2 started.
- fileyfood500 6y agoFDR/senior government and military officials in the US army knew. They made choices to focus on American interests at multiple points, even as they closed on victory on the European front, they prioritized strategic targets over concentration camps. The USSR ended up being the one to free most of the camps, and conquer most of Germany. Strategic targets are definitely important for protecting soldiers, but really the point here is that the military leaders were aware, and the fact the soldiers were surprised/shocked is a result of them not being informed and/or it being a shocking thing to see even when you know it’s coming.
- yellowapple 6y ago> they prioritized strategic targets over concentration camps. Well yeah, that's just Winning Wars 101. If the decision is between "let's knock out these strategic targets so that we can end the war quickly and (assuming we know about them) shut down the concentration camps all at once" v. "let's get bogged down by starting with the concentration camps while the enemy continues to churn out arms and war machines and troops because we couldn't be assed to focus on the strategic targets", the former is really the only reasonable choice.
- neolog 6y ago> FDR/senior government and military officials in the US army knew. I'd be interested to see the source material for that.
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- nabla9 6y agoMeanwhile Apple and other companies are actively lobbying against forced labor bill in the US.
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- mosseater 6y agoI'm not in any position to say one way or another what's going on, but the sheer amount of propaganda coming out of the West about China makes me skeptical of any claims of genocide. The "witnesses" are shoddy at best, one changing her story from "her captives were non violent" to "they beat and raped us" (CNN specifically tried to hide her passport information, showing that the CCP had willingly let her go to the USA). The fact that China has been pretty open about investigators coming to see whats going on, and how there hasn't been any actual evidence aside from what people have said, have me on the fence. The strategy being used right now just feels off. If there is a genocide going on we should go investigate it and get hard evidence. Right now all we are using is weak hearsay. It makes me think it's less about saving Uighurs and more about having an excuse to go to war with China.
- Tiktaalik 6y agoThe West isn't going to go to war to stop a genocide.
- coldtea 6y agoNo, but they are gonna overblow what's going on in those areas, to use as "cold war" pressure and justify all kinds of measures and actions in a diplomatic / trade war that has nothing to do with caring for the plight of Uighurs... One would expect by the 10th repetition of the same BS playbook in the last 100 years, people would know by now...
- DamnYuppie 6y agoNo one in the history of ever has gone to war to stop a genocide. Many have been started to perpetrate one though.
- 1996 6y agoSerbia called and want its bombed army back.
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- danShumway 6y agoThis is something that future generations are going to look back at with a lot of shame. It's going to end up being in textbooks as another thing where students wonder why we were OK with genocide happening under our noses. In the US at least, we are not taking this problem seriously enough. There's a lot of acknowledgement that something bad is happening, but not a lot of clear coordination on an international scale to actually stop it. I am generally a non-interventionist, but this is an area where we need to get more involved and we need to be more forceful about pulling the economic and social levers that we have at our disposal. It still feels like we're just treating this like "problematic" behavior from a contentious ally, rather than a genocide. At least in the US, we are still not really grappling with the gravity of that word.
- almost_usual 6y agoWe have no leverage and the global economic system doesn’t care enough. Let’s be real, China is the new world super power. The US is still riding the coattails of prior success. We’re a confused divided country and China has a brutally efficient system of exploitation the US needs.
- steve76 6y agoMoral authority over martial or material. Nature wins without effort. Storms and earthquakes go where they want, regardless of who lives or dies. The USA doesn't need the competition. Leave us alone please, for just once in our history. Our entire existence, the world has waged war against us. Imaging black holes. Probes inside the Sun. Ever growing size of matter waves. Find peace please, or I build a horrible weapon of coarse resuscitation, a gravity application of pair production and coherent control that doesn't kill, but keeps people alive.
- krageon 6y ago> Our entire existence, the world has waged war against us. For the most recent part of it, it has rather been the inverse.
- mensetmanusman 6y agoWe will never do anything, because iphone.
- Simulacra 6y agoAmerican dependency on cheap foreign labor dictates a lot of inaction, from China concentration camps to Middle Eastern human rights violations.
- fsflover 6y agoHere is an alternative: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa. Before complaining about the price, try to find any other phone made in USA.
- yumraj 6y agoThe world did nothing when same was happening in Tibet and China was a fraction of its current power. Nothing is going to happen now when China is obviously more powerful. Moreover, none of the Muslim countries care, ME countries will happily sell China oil and Pakistan touts it’s relationship with China.
- guram11 6y agoThere IS one thing different this time, COVID Things will happen, it just takes time
- revendell_elf 6y agoWhat's the relation between COVID and this genocide?
- AzzieElbab 6y agoWhat happens in China does not stay in China? Public perception in other words
- brundolf 6y agoThe world would have done nothing about Hitler if he hadn't started invading the rest of Europe [1]. And the CCP is smart enough to focus on economic domination instead of land-war. This is my greatest fear for humanity right now. [1] https://www.historyextra.com/period/20th-century/britain-adolf-hitler-dictator-admiration-appeasement-relationship-britain-germany/ https://www.historyextra.com/period/20th-century/britain-ado... Edit: Why would this get downvoted? Do you disagree with the interpretation of history (and extrapolation to our current situation), or do you disagree that this prospect is a bad thing?
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- JBiserkov 6y ago>This is my greatest fear for humanity right now. Not Climate chaos/disaster, ecological+societal collapse, pollution?! Micro-plastics? Nukes? Hello?
- 1996 6y agoCan the west please stop pushing its values on Asia? Even if you accept the BBC without discussions, it is not a genocide: people are free to embrace another faith, or none at all.
- nashashmi 6y agoIt is not a matter of faith. It is a matter of being a Chinese Turk. And staying different from the rest of the chinese.
- qiqitori 6y agoAh, in the name of the West I sincerely apologize for pushing the highly controversial and specific-to-the-West "value" of "disapproving of genocide". Oh wait, it isn't genocide, it's just some innocent ethnic cleansing, right?
- _-david-_ 6y agoIf a group of people's values are disgusting enough they support enslaving and steralizing people they should have western values pushed onto them.
- Bakary 6y agoI don't agree with the parent comment's perspective, but isn't it deeply ironic to make this statement?
- _-david-_ 6y agoBy 'this statement' do you mean mine or the person I was responding to?
- Bakary 6y agoThe former. The proposition is a hard sell on a purely logical basis ("if you don't freedom correctly, we'll freedom you") but also in its broader context. Western nations have made great innovations in empire building and genocide from the Opium Wars to the camps, have destabilized a large number of governments, created the threat of nuclear annihilation, then lecture other nations after only a few decades of liberalization; that liberalization having come only as a result of a weakening of their relative power. I'm not coming at this from the angle of wanting to see the West fail. On the contrary, I think it would be a far better strategic choice to focus on our current crop of governance failures instead of trying to mold other countries, return to looking at first principles instead of "End of History" magical thinking, and come up with stronger incentives and examples for other countries to try the liberal/democratic model of development than just vague appeals to values that don't even sound so great when we are electing populist leaders.
- seattle_spring 6y agoI work with a lot of folks from China and they are bending over backwards trying to defend the CCP. Their argument almost always boils down to "I know people who live in Xinjiang and they say it's not that bad." Equivalent to someone using their one black friend as proof that they can't possibly be racist.
- smnrchrds 6y agoReminds me of that joke: I asked my friend from North Korea how life is. He said he can't complain.
- vivekpandian 6y agoNo use in trying to discuss this anyone from China. They are totally brainwashed. In Spite of, living in USA and enjoying democracy, and free of speech, they think freedom of speech is myth and democracy is not a reliable form of government. They believe that Winnie, the pooh is great and he and CCP is solely responsible for lifting millions of Chinese people from poverty. I really feel pity for the Chinese people.
- almost_usual 6y agoThere are comments on HN right now where people are questioning whether freedom of speech is good in the US by US citizens. Why would someone from China think it’s working after the shit show of 2020 and our own citizens not having confidence?
- eyelidlessness 6y agoIf you’re referring to comments like mine challenging the idea that private websites banning anyone for any reason has anything to do with free speech, you’re wildly mischaracterizing your US audience.
- almost_usual 6y ago> private websites banning anyone for any reason has anything to do with free speech, you’re wildly mischaracterizing your US audience. If US citizens already have a hard time discerning this imagine someone from China. It’s amateur capital driven censorship. It’s inefficient, confusing, and divides a nation. Yes it would be viewed as suboptimal from someone familiar with nationalism and censorship in China.
- nashashmi 6y agoThe credibility is in the statements of the Chinese that both deny and defend the practice.
- koheripbal 6y agoNo. The credibility comes from the actual evidence provided.
- nashashmi 6y agoTrue. But evidence is also given by the perpetrator through denial and accidental confirmation.
- Leary 6y agoHow many people have died in this so called genocide?
- eyelidlessness 6y agoIf you omit “so called” this might be a good question.
- phantomathkg 6y agohttps://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml Article II b: Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Article II d: Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
- throw495721 6y ago> State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China > The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials. https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-...
- dirtyid 6y agoHence why the original Genocide accusation had to be laundered first through Zenz / Victims of Communism, why this "opinion" was commissioned by NED funded Uighur organizations. Why lying Pompeo only backed the genocide label at the end of his term despite your linked assessment by his own state department. It's delusional to think commissioned legal opinions still funded by US interests is going to make genocide stick when state department legal minds could not. Articles like this are, and have always been used for purpose of political theatre.
- danShumway 6y agoBut not at odds about the "crimes against humanity" part, right? Basically everyone except the CCP's PR department agrees that China is engaging in an ethnic cleansing. This article isn't disagreeing with that, it's not debating that the State department over-exaggerated or misrepresented the extent of the problem. Instead, it's arguing a semantic point that "cultural" genocide is harder to pin down than overt WW2-style death camps. It argues that if we call this genocide, then nobody will care about a bigger issue down the road. But given that the United States and other allies have been shockingly derelict in holding China to account over what is widely agreed to be an ethnic cleansing, the decay of the word "genocide" as an accurate descriptor of a coordinated effort to eliminate a culture should not be our top worry right now. I do not buy the article's concerns. It is wild to me that people can argue we're being too aggressive talking about China right now. We are not being aggressive enough. International courts are not pursuing China strongly enough right now. The CCP is being ignored even though the actual facts of the case are agreed on by almost everyone even in this article -- that China is attempting to eliminate an entire culture, and they are deploying horrifying methods in the pursuit of that goal.
- adamjb 6y agoPDF of the legal opinion https://14ee1ae3-14ee-4012-91cf-a6a3b7dc3d8b.usrfiles.com/ugd/14ee1a_3f31c56ca64a461592ffc2690c9bb737.pdf https://14ee1ae3-14ee-4012-91cf-a6a3b7dc3d8b.usrfiles.com/ug... from https://www.glanlaw.org/single-post/legal-opinion-concludes-that-treatment-of-uyghurs-amounts-to-crimes-against-humanity-and-genocide https://www.glanlaw.org/single-post/legal-opinion-concludes-... This is the single most dodgy looking url I've ever shared.
- FredFS456 6y agoFWIW, usrfiles.com seems to be a CDN associated with wix.com. glanlaw.org has DNS registered with wix, so I expect they're hosting there too.
- refenestrator 6y agoFunny, at the non-dodgy URL, the opinion is the opposite: https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-... "Despite the Trump administration’s declaration of a genocide in Xinjiang, upheld by the Biden administration, some legal experts suspect China’s behavior may fall short of actual genocide." This opinion by those legal experts with their nitpicky definitions of 'actual genocide' is probably related to the absolute lack of any mass casualties. Not that such technical concerns should stand in the way of nationalist rhetoric.
- FredFS456 6y agoI don't believe there is sufficient evidence for mass casualties, but the OP is arguing a different tack: they're saying that we have evidence for forced sterilization and targeted oppression of the Uyghur culture, which by their sources can be construed as genocide.
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- refenestrator 6y ago
- jariel 6y agoThe word 'genocide' is a little tricky, it kind of implies death-camps, at least in the popular imagination, I mean, the first basis of comparison I think for most of us is the Nazi Holocaust. A note below talked about the DoJ's concerns about 'proving genocide' etc. - it's besides the point. If they are putting 1M people in jail due to their ethnicity and doing this crazy psychological programming, it's bad enough, the 'forced sterilization' and 'removal of children' is a very serious thing as well, but that doesn't need to happen for this to be 'very very bad'. We might need to use a different word to describe this, that fits a little more directly to what is happening. If China was not powerful, there would be trade sanctions, if not embargoes, which is something to consider. The issue needs to be addressed, it steps beyond the CCP's usual arguments of 'internal problems are not your business'.
- adultSwim 6y agoDo we have good evidence to support the 1M figure?
- exporectomy 6y agoI had no idea genocide included destroying a culture without killing the people who belong to it. Eg. by adoption, sterilization, indoctrination, punishment for practicing it, etc. Genocide seems like a misleading word here when typical cases are population-scale killings. But if that's the definition the UK government uses, then they have to be consistent.
- phantomathkg 6y agohttps://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml Article II b: Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Article II d: Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
- 789420 6y agoAsking since most of the people in this thread are taking it as a given: what is the strongest evidence pointing to the fact that China is carrying out a genocide? For example, I've been fairly bothered by the consistent citing of unreliable sources for the Tiananmen square death counts (ie. that British cable that cited 10k+). Lots of people seem to be calling any deviation from the "accepted" line to be "brainwashed", Winnie the Pooh jokes, etc.
- redm 6y agoI think the most shocking part of that article was the Chinese response. I can imagine a similar response from Nazi Germany. -- "Some anti-China forces in the West have concocted and disseminated plenty of false information about Xinjiang and fabricated "lies of the century" in various forms," the embassy said. "They have smeared China's image and slandered its policies on Xinjiang." It added: "Anyone who is fair-minded can see that the true intent of those forces is to suppress and contain China's development... Their moves are driven by a Cold War mentality, hegemonic worldview and zero-sum game mindset. China will never allow such farce and vicious demonization to succeed. Lies may mislead people for a while, but cannot win the trust of the world. Facts and truth will eventually bust all lies."
- sullyj3 6y agoIt reads like a caricature of authoritarian propaganda. They're not even trying to be subtle.
- dj_gitmo 6y agoI take this issue very serious issue and I've spent a significant amount of time researching it. I think there is a settler-colonial project occurring in Xinjiang, but there are some serious problems with many of the western sources that undermine the credibility of this report. Report https://14ee1ae3-14ee-4012-91cf-a6a3b7dc3d8b.usrfiles.com/ugd/14ee1a_3f31c56ca64a461592ffc2690c9bb737.pdf https://14ee1ae3-14ee-4012-91cf-a6a3b7dc3d8b.usrfiles.com/ug... The evidence for most of these accusations come from Adrian Zenz and ASPI. The report says: > the works of Dr Zenz, ASPI and similar others would be accorded significant weight and would have probative value in establishing the relevant facts. Adrian Zenz is the key source for almost all of the genocide claims but I think him and his claims should be scrutinized. The Grayzone did a very critical analysis of Zenz and his claims that is worth exporing if you are actually interested in this subject. https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/us-media-reports-chinese-genocide-relied-on-fraudulent-far-right-researcher/ https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/us-media-reports-chinese-... I think global attention could help the people of Xinjiang, but not if it’s hijacked by western governments who have an axe to grind with China.
- Context_free 6y agoI can go to another part of the BBC web site and read about the British killed in the past 6, 7, and 8 years while going halfway across the world to kill Muslims in the country bordering west Xinjiang. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-30224841 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-30224841 Meanwhile when China deals with Muslim terrorism within its own borders there's calls of "genocide" (I suppose something akin to England's genocide in Bengal during World War II, or in Ireland in the 19th century etc.) Perplexing to see westerners who go to the other side of the world to bomb weddings in Afghanistan get into a Calvinist/liberal "moral" froth about China confronting (mostly non-violently) Muslim terrorism within its own borders, slightly west of the where the west has been occupying for two decades.
- duxup 6y ago>China deals with Muslim terrorism The scale seems dramatically wide and largely ethic focused compared to a military conflict. But what I really wonder if you compare it to "bombing a wedding"... are you ok with that?
- arminiusreturns 6y ago"After the end of the second world war, the British view was grim. It was that the balance of power in the pacific had been totally shattered in favor of the United States. One response by London, was to support Mao Tse-tung's communist insurrection, against the pro-American, Kuomintang government of generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek in China. FDR's personal representative in China, general Patrick J. Hurley, saw as a post-war goal, a strong unified China under Chiang Kai-shek and the KMT. The British backed Mao, with the idea that the communists could become the warlords of Bejing and northern China, while the KMT might hang on in the south, below the Yangtze river. Stalin was going to be encouraged by the British to detach Manchuria, Mongolia, and Chinese Turkestan, sometimes known as Xinjiang. The British especially hated Chiang and the KMT, who were the heirs to Sun Yat-sen's opposition to colonialism, and his support for modern economic development. The British by themselves would not have been able to consolidate Mao's regime. They were aided by the pro-British Harriman faction in the United States, including Dean Acheson and general George C. Marshall, who effectively made president Harry Truman their puppet in foreign affairs. The turning point came in 1945 and 1946, when Marshall was sent on a mission to China, which resulted in a half-year cutoff of US military aid to Chiang Kai-shek at a critical turning point in the Chinese civil war. After that, Mao made the long march to sieze most of China by the end of 1949. The British were among the first to recognize Mao's government, and supply him was strategic goods through Hong-Kong. After Mao's victory, the British oligarchs were looking for wars to cut the US down to size in the far east, and restore the balance of power. The result was the Korean war. Korea had been divided north and south between the Soviets and the US, although by early 1950, both had gone home. Harriman's friend Acheson declared that the US had no interest in South Korea, then Kim Il-sung of North Korea attacked. Suddenly Harriman and Acheson discovered that the fate of the free world depended on Korea, and they convinced Truman to fight. Truman ordered MacArthur to do the impossible, to save Korea with inferior forces. MacArthur's defense of Pusan, and then the Inchon invasion defeated North Korea and stunned the British plotters. Their gambit had backfired, and US supremacy was greater than ever. So the British turned once again to their favorite device; treachery. There was in those years a stable of triple agents based in London, especially in the foreign office. These included Kim Philby, the first secretary of the British embassy in Washington. Then there was Guy Burgess, the second secretary at that same embassy. Donald Maclean was the head of the American desk in Whitehall. Other associates of this group included sir Anthony Blunt, of Buckingham Palace, and Lord Victor Rothschild, of British intelligence. There was also Lester B. Pearson, the Canadian foreign minister. These men were triples. On the surface they were British agents. Scratch deeper and they were working for the KGB, which had recruited them at Cambridge in the 1930's, but at the deepest level, they were loyal to the British monarchy. It was British policy to stab the US in the back, so as to restore the balance of power. Having some triple agents around meant that the British could do this and get away with it, with plausible deniability. If the spies should be blown, the British could claim that it had been the KGB all along. The Philby-Rothschild group of triple agents were decisive in the Korean war. Phibly and Maclean were able to send Moscow, Bejing and Pyongyang, all of MacArthurs orders from President Truman. These included restrictions against carrying the war to China, with bombing, blockade, or hard pursuit. When Mao was sure that MacArthur's hands would be tied, he commited massive Chinese forces to Korea in November of 1951. Philby and Maclean obligingly saw to it, that Mao got all of MacArthurs military dispatches. So the communists knew exactly where and when to strike."
- fractallyte 6y agoThis article downplays the most horrendous act of genocide: systematic, state-endorsed RAPE of Uighur women and girls (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55794071 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55794071) Mass extermination is obvious, but here's another way to destroy a nation: through the deepest, most unutterable form of demoralization. And I think the reason it's not more in the headlines is precisely because of its nature: we don't want to think about this kind of act, on a mass scale, perpetrated by one of the most powerful nations in the world, indirectly supported by Western economies and politics. The BBC report is considered credible. The best thing we can do is to spread it, and hope it becomes viral - so that business with China becomes absolutely socially unacceptable.
- eurasiantiger 6y agoIndirectly supported by all the cheap unnecessary shit we buy.
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- Ansil849 6y agoThe amount of comments in this thread which appear to assume that 'genocide' means exclusively physical harm is concerning. Just for the record: as per the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide [1], genocide is officially defined as either physical _or_ mental harm. [1] https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-...
- hh3k0 6y agoAnd there's also that: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_stages_of_genocide https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_stages_of_genocide
- ajay-b 6y agoIt’s interesting to read the pro Chinese propaganda on HN. It’s too bad we can’t see the region from where those comments are coming from. It saddens me that people are forced to stand up for a regime that massacres and enslaves its own people.
- BelenusMordred 6y agoPlease try take a moment to step in someone else's shoes and engage with what they are saying before calling their comments "propaganda". It's not good faith behaviour.
- UK-Al05 6y agoIt's very odd, when there's countless witnesses, satalite imagery, press teams finding these places, and the CCP even admitting to education camps that there are people going "it's not so bad" and defending CCP. Even if the camps are just "re-education camps", thats still really bad.
- Fricken 6y agoHow do you respond to islamic extremism in your country? Attacks in Tieneman square used to be bad before it was the Uyghurs doing it. Islamic terrorism used to be bad, before it was the Uyghurs doing it. China has a responsibility to deal with this problem, and if there a nice, gentle way to deal with it, I can't think of what it might be.
- jedimind 6y agoIt has absolutely NOTHING to do with 'extremism' that's just a cheap CCP talking point. It's about the geopolitical importance of xinjiang: https://youtu.be/ZxvYcByv2M8 https://youtu.be/ZxvYcByv2M8
- tgragnato 6y agoNobody has a responsibility to "re-educate" an entire culture. It's a no go, full stop. Especially because there is not a gentle way, what you end up with is still genocide. Mincing words can't change facts. The CCP consider extremism every form of dissent. By that standard, nobody is a terrorist, because everybody is a terrorist. And the ultimate consequence is that the party feels entitled to do whatever they want to any citizen. Which is again unacceptable.
- aaron695 6y agoNo, China is not committing genocide. I take issue using sterilisations as enough for a serious term like genocide, I don't care about 'clever' people pointing to the technical/legal term. It's not how it's used. Word games bore me. There is also no evidence they are being sterilised or forced to have abortions. Evidence I've seen on the BBC and in docos simply hasn't added up. When the future looks back to now it won't be Uighurs, it will be North Korea. The second probably will be Rohingya, but maybe Uighurs. I'm happy to go to war with China, I think it'll be fun to watch. It's affects on me will only be a small percentage drop in assets, so whatever. But people believing this propaganda is just so annoying, can no one think for themselves anymore. Can't we just go with racism or imperialism as why we don't like them. Or old school anti-Communism. Even the fact what they are doing to the Uighurs and the general Chinese population is not great. Why do we have to jump to genocide.
- hh3k0 6y ago> No, China is not committing genocide. Yes, they are: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_stages_of_genocide https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_stages_of_genocide > Why do we have to jump to genocide. Because that is the term for what they do. The refusal to call it genocide is like putting lipstick on a pig; in the end it's still a pig.
- Fricken 6y agoInteresting. According to that America is at stage 8 of 10 in it's Genocide of China.
- underseacables 6y agoWhat’s most sad about all of this is that there is really nothing the US can do to stop the genocide. No matter how many times it’s discussed, no matter how many people and politicians call attention to it, there’s really nothing the West can do. A decision was made between what’s more important: Human rights, or a new iPhone. The West chose the iPhone. China has been killing innocent people and putting them in camps for decades. It will not change unless western government and companies decide enough is enough, and stop buying Chinese goods.
- noobface1337 6y agoI've said this before and I will say it again, have anyone actually read any of the testimonies from the actual Uighur "survivors"? To me, the most damning thing is that they all claim female sterilisation is done just via a needle jab, and that's it. Does anyone want to find out how female sterilisation is actually done? https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/multiple-detained-women-allege-unnecessary-reproductive-organ-removals_n_5f62c51cc5b6c6317cff71dd?ri18n=true https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/multiple-detained-wom... That's right, it requires an actual surgery, and even with surgery, it is only 99% effective https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception/female-sterilisation/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception/female-sterilisa... This really makes me question the narrative that female sterilisation is actually being done to the Uighurs.
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- Havoc 6y agoGreat we all agree on that. Now what?
- supergirl 6y ago> A legal opinion is the professional judgement of a respected QC - an independent expert in their field - who assesses the evidence and the law and comes to a conclusion. It does not have a legal standing, like a court judgement, but can be used as a basis for legal action. > This opinion was commissioned - but not paid for - by the Global Legal Action Network, a human rights campaign group that focuses on cross-border legal issues, and the World Uighur Congress and the Uighur Human Rights Project.
- throw2102221008 6y ago"Credible case" commissioned by World Uighur Congress, who are in turn funded by NED, an offshoot of the CIA, doesn't sound very credible to me. It's kind of like big oil companies commissioning research that global warming doesn't exist; or tobacco companies commissioning research smoking does not cause health problems. If you won't believe these the research coming out of big oil or tobacco companies, why would you believe research coming out of the CIA?