10 ms·

Stonehenge may have been built in Wales and then relocated

107 points by samizdis 6y ago

samizdis 6y ago
Study cited in the BBC article: The original Stonehenge? A dismantled stone circle in the Preseli Hills of west Wales Published online by Cambridge University Press: 12 February 2021 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/original-stonehenge-a-dismantled-stone-circle-in-the-preseli-hills-of-west-wales/B7DAA4A7792B4DAB57DDE0E3136FBC33 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/or...
- notahacker 6y ago
  The actual paper is, as always, less exciting than the breezy PR TLDR: Three of Stonehenge's stones have long been believed to come from a particular area of Wales. One of them has a pentagonal cross section which was found to approximately matches a pentagonal hole in a partial stone circle in that area, a circle surrounded by a ditch which - coincidentally or otherwise - has the same dimensions as a ditch at Stonehenge. Dating is inconclusive, but evidence supports some of the people cremated at Stonehenge having lived in south Wales for some of their life. It's also established beyond doubt that nearly all the other stones in Stonehenge have no logical connection with this site. So the builders of Stonehenge might have taken as many as three stones from another site for symbolic or "hey, I know where to find a massive stone the right size for our new project" reasons
  - Cthulhu_ 6y ago
    > So the builders of Stonehenge might have taken as many as three stones from another site for symbolic or "hey, I know where to find a massive stone the right size for our new project" reasons If it's 400 years (and the timeline is up for debate), who knows, it may have been a completely different people / culture that decided to move the stone (vs the ones that built the original circle). I mean in western Europe, town walls were dismantled for other building projects. Walls that still exist are considered protected cultural heritage nowadays. It's a different point of view that changes over time and as cultures progress.
    - wnevets 6y ago
      > mean in western Europe, town walls were dismantled for other building projects. To further this example the limestone used to clad Egyptian Pyramids were removed to use as materials in other building projects.
jll29 6y ago
Maybe they found a rounding error in the location calculations only after the site was half-finished. Late errrors in projects are always costly.
- tim333 6y ago
  Apparently they were up for about 400 years in Wales. Project ran late I guess.
  - lukeramsden 6y ago
    I bet it was still more within delivery parameters than HS2 is.
- cesis 6y ago
  It also might be off-site construction. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-site_construction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-site_construction
bryanrasmussen 6y ago
wait, wasn't this one of the plots of the original Mary Stewart Merlin books, hmm no on reflection Merlin built a standing stones circle to bury his father Ambrosius Aurelianus, not sure if it was supposed to be at Stonehenge he built it.
INTPenis 6y ago
How were they able to accurately match a cross section of a stone that's been in the ground for 5000 years and one that's been above ground in the weather for 5000 years? Wouldn't those have wildly different wear and tear on them?
- tim333 6y ago
  I don't think those sort of stones change shape much even over 5000 years.
londons_explore 6y ago
You should always be very suspicious when a team of archeologists with a TV production team finds something new and revolutionary on the exact topic they were making a TV program about... Seems a bit too convenient! Especially when the evidence is a muddy hole nearly the same shape and size as a rock 150 miles away... Oh, and look - it just so happens to be on the only farm you could get permission to dig on!
- kijin 6y ago
  The article doesn't say that the TV crew surreptitiously discovered the hole. It's just as likely that archeologists unaffiliated with BBC came up with this theory months or even years earlier, wanted funding and a bit of publicity for their pet project, got hooked up with BBC, and scheduled the most important part of the excavation to coincide with the arrival of the TV crew as per the funding agreement. The whole point is to maximize the likelihood that an interesting discovery will take place during filming. NatGeo does this all the time, and I'm sure BBC does, too.
  - tim333 6y ago
    Yeah some info: (from https://www.irishmirror.ie/tv/extraordinary-stonehenge-discovery-unveiled-historians-23486093 https://www.irishmirror.ie/tv/extraordinary-stonehenge-disco...) Professor Mike says he had long held the theory that the smaller bluestones which surrounded Stonehenge in a wide circle during its earliest phase, had started life as a monument in Wales. But finding the site of a stone circle which no longer exists, 5,000 years after it was moved, is no mean feat. The research started in 2010, with excavations beginning in 2012 but as they years went by they experienced many set-backs involving bronze and iron age circles which weren’t what they were looking for. Mike, 63, did a deal with a TV company to film their progress in 2015. Two years later, it was a despondent group led by Dave Shaw, who decided to excavate Waun Mawn, an “unpromising” marshy site described as “small and unremarkable” which had turned up nothing in the geophysics surveys. ... [goes on to describe finding it]
  - dmurray 6y ago
    > surreptitiously serendipitously?
randomcarbloke 6y ago
The uninformed have been saying this for years, the truth is those sarsen stones aren't available in Wales, they exist very close to Stonehenge in other parts of Wiltshire, and Oxfordshire
- simonh 6y ago
  The sarsen (sandstone) stones most likely came from West Woods, 15 miles from Stonehenge, but there's no known local geological source for the bluestones though. These do seem to have come from Wales somehow. The varied geological origins of the stones has caused a lot of confusion like this.
- DanBC 6y ago
  Stonehenge has a mix of sarsen stones and blue stones. The sarsen stones come from Wiltshire. The blue stones come from the Preseli Hills in south west Wales.
Theodores 6y ago
Stonehenge is a gift that keeps giving. Everyone has their opinion about it, which is more of a mirror on them than anything to do with the stones. For a joke there should be a Stonehenge week on YouTube where scores of armchair historians research and invent parallel narratives. It is fascinating how any mystery can be projected on to a Pagan religious belief that does not have to be specified further. Even if it was nuked from orbit TV crews would continue their documentaries.
ycombigator 6y ago
Countdown to "War of the Blue Stones" initiated...
- tempodox 6y ago
  Fetching popcorn for Game of Stones…
ljf 6y ago
Amusingly I sent this to my nephew who lives close to the site in Wales, he responded 'I thought that was common knowledge, it is what people around here have always claimed' I love the link to Ireland that at first seems incorrect until you learn that this part of what was part of Ireland in the past.
- OJFord 6y ago
  Going by the article linked in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26112657 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26112657 It indeed seems more like evidence in favour of a long-held theory. Also though, as the OP says: > It is already known that the smaller bluestones that were first used to build Stonehenge were transported from 150 miles (240 km) away in modern-day Pembrokeshire. > But the new discovery suggests the bluestones from Waun Mawn could have been moved as the ancient people of the Preseli region migrated, even taking their monuments with them, as a sign of their ancestral identity. I don't live in Wales but have definitely heard that before too, the discovery seems to be about larger ones and that they were previously erected (not just mined) in (what is now) Pembrokeshire. Is it definitely that that he thought to be common knowledge, not just that the stones were taken from the region?
  - ljf 6y ago
    I asked him just now and he said he thought it was known that the stones were taken from the stone circle there not just mined there. He hangs out with a lot of alternative types there, who are interested in that sort of thing.
    - lovemenot 6y ago
      Ask him for other some common knowledge and filter for what seems surprising to you. Then fact-check those. Perhaps there's diamonds in the rough. Perhaps not.
nathias 6y ago
I wonder how ancient aliens moved it, maybe it was Hitler all along ...
bencollier49 6y ago
What I most enjoy about this is that it appears to corroborate historical records of the wizard Merlin.
- adambcn 6y ago
  Yes, legend says Merlin used his magic to move Stonehenge from Ireland to England https://voicesfromthedawn.com/stonehenge/ https://voicesfromthedawn.com/stonehenge/
dusted 6y ago
I read this as "built by whales", immediately thought of the Gojira song and now I'm disappointed.
- usrusr 6y ago
  Stop it! It doesn't help me at all obsercoming my urge to make up some bad joke about how Docker was or wasn't involved in that migration project!
- Maursault 6y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee60DLk0-bU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee60DLk0-bU
- tabtab 6y ago
  The Prince of Whales: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-48622001 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-48622001
fidrelity 6y ago
To everybody who is interested in the possible purpose of Stonehenge and other megalithic structures I can recommend this book: Seed of Knowledge, Stone of Plenty (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/780619.Seed_of_Knowledge_Stone_of_Plenty https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/780619.Seed_of_Knowledge...). It has nothing to do with ancient aliens and the like and is rather scientific about the electromagnetic properties of such structures.
lowdose 6y ago
I don think it is really the case but it could be Stonehenge is the result of the first FOMO. Either build or burn on the stones.
call_me_dana 6y ago
Anyone interested in the Stonehenge topic should check out the Secrets in Plain Sight documentary. https://youtu.be/DHhgLnIvuAs https://youtu.be/DHhgLnIvuAs Stonehenge starts at 57:27
tabtab 6y ago
"Grog, get your ugly art-work out of our neighborhood now! I lowers our cave resell values and attracts mastodons in heat."

107 points by samizdis 6y ago

Study cited in the BBC article: The original Stonehenge? A dismantled stone circle in the Preseli Hills of west Wales Published online by Cambridge University Press: 12 February 2021 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/original-stonehenge-a-dismantled-stone-circle-in-the-preseli-hills-of-west-wales/B7DAA4A7792B4DAB57DDE0E3136FBC33 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/or...

notahacker 6y ago
The actual paper is, as always, less exciting than the breezy PR TLDR: Three of Stonehenge's stones have long been believed to come from a particular area of Wales. One of them has a pentagonal cross section which was found to approximately matches a pentagonal hole in a partial stone circle in that area, a circle surrounded by a ditch which - coincidentally or otherwise - has the same dimensions as a ditch at Stonehenge. Dating is inconclusive, but evidence supports some of the people cremated at Stonehenge having lived in south Wales for some of their life. It's also established beyond doubt that nearly all the other stones in Stonehenge have no logical connection with this site. So the builders of Stonehenge might have taken as many as three stones from another site for symbolic or "hey, I know where to find a massive stone the right size for our new project" reasons
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  > So the builders of Stonehenge might have taken as many as three stones from another site for symbolic or "hey, I know where to find a massive stone the right size for our new project" reasons If it's 400 years (and the timeline is up for debate), who knows, it may have been a completely different people / culture that decided to move the stone (vs the ones that built the original circle). I mean in western Europe, town walls were dismantled for other building projects. Walls that still exist are considered protected cultural heritage nowadays. It's a different point of view that changes over time and as cultures progress.
  - wnevets 6y ago
    > mean in western Europe, town walls were dismantled for other building projects. To further this example the limestone used to clad Egyptian Pyramids were removed to use as materials in other building projects.

jll29 6y ago

Maybe they found a rounding error in the location calculations only after the site was half-finished. Late errrors in projects are always costly.

tim333 6y ago
Apparently they were up for about 400 years in Wales. Project ran late I guess.
- lukeramsden 6y ago
  I bet it was still more within delivery parameters than HS2 is.
cesis 6y ago
It also might be off-site construction. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-site_construction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-site_construction

bryanrasmussen 6y ago

wait, wasn't this one of the plots of the original Mary Stewart Merlin books, hmm no on reflection Merlin built a standing stones circle to bury his father Ambrosius Aurelianus, not sure if it was supposed to be at Stonehenge he built it.

INTPenis 6y ago

How were they able to accurately match a cross section of a stone that's been in the ground for 5000 years and one that's been above ground in the weather for 5000 years? Wouldn't those have wildly different wear and tear on them?

tim333 6y ago
I don't think those sort of stones change shape much even over 5000 years.

londons_explore 6y ago

You should always be very suspicious when a team of archeologists with a TV production team finds something new and revolutionary on the exact topic they were making a TV program about... Seems a bit too convenient! Especially when the evidence is a muddy hole nearly the same shape and size as a rock 150 miles away... Oh, and look - it just so happens to be on the only farm you could get permission to dig on!

kijin 6y ago
The article doesn't say that the TV crew surreptitiously discovered the hole. It's just as likely that archeologists unaffiliated with BBC came up with this theory months or even years earlier, wanted funding and a bit of publicity for their pet project, got hooked up with BBC, and scheduled the most important part of the excavation to coincide with the arrival of the TV crew as per the funding agreement. The whole point is to maximize the likelihood that an interesting discovery will take place during filming. NatGeo does this all the time, and I'm sure BBC does, too.
- tim333 6y ago
  Yeah some info: (from https://www.irishmirror.ie/tv/extraordinary-stonehenge-discovery-unveiled-historians-23486093 https://www.irishmirror.ie/tv/extraordinary-stonehenge-disco...) Professor Mike says he had long held the theory that the smaller bluestones which surrounded Stonehenge in a wide circle during its earliest phase, had started life as a monument in Wales. But finding the site of a stone circle which no longer exists, 5,000 years after it was moved, is no mean feat. The research started in 2010, with excavations beginning in 2012 but as they years went by they experienced many set-backs involving bronze and iron age circles which weren’t what they were looking for. Mike, 63, did a deal with a TV company to film their progress in 2015. Two years later, it was a despondent group led by Dave Shaw, who decided to excavate Waun Mawn, an “unpromising” marshy site described as “small and unremarkable” which had turned up nothing in the geophysics surveys. ... [goes on to describe finding it]
- dmurray 6y ago
  > surreptitiously serendipitously?

randomcarbloke 6y ago

The uninformed have been saying this for years, the truth is those sarsen stones aren't available in Wales, they exist very close to Stonehenge in other parts of Wiltshire, and Oxfordshire

simonh 6y ago
The sarsen (sandstone) stones most likely came from West Woods, 15 miles from Stonehenge, but there's no known local geological source for the bluestones though. These do seem to have come from Wales somehow. The varied geological origins of the stones has caused a lot of confusion like this.
DanBC 6y ago
Stonehenge has a mix of sarsen stones and blue stones. The sarsen stones come from Wiltshire. The blue stones come from the Preseli Hills in south west Wales.

Theodores 6y ago

Stonehenge is a gift that keeps giving. Everyone has their opinion about it, which is more of a mirror on them than anything to do with the stones. For a joke there should be a Stonehenge week on YouTube where scores of armchair historians research and invent parallel narratives. It is fascinating how any mystery can be projected on to a Pagan religious belief that does not have to be specified further. Even if it was nuked from orbit TV crews would continue their documentaries.

ycombigator 6y ago

Countdown to "War of the Blue Stones" initiated...

tempodox 6y ago
Fetching popcorn for Game of Stones…

ljf 6y ago

Amusingly I sent this to my nephew who lives close to the site in Wales, he responded 'I thought that was common knowledge, it is what people around here have always claimed' I love the link to Ireland that at first seems incorrect until you learn that this part of what was part of Ireland in the past.

OJFord 6y ago
Going by the article linked in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26112657 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26112657 It indeed seems more like evidence in favour of a long-held theory. Also though, as the OP says: > It is already known that the smaller bluestones that were first used to build Stonehenge were transported from 150 miles (240 km) away in modern-day Pembrokeshire. > But the new discovery suggests the bluestones from Waun Mawn could have been moved as the ancient people of the Preseli region migrated, even taking their monuments with them, as a sign of their ancestral identity. I don't live in Wales but have definitely heard that before too, the discovery seems to be about larger ones and that they were previously erected (not just mined) in (what is now) Pembrokeshire. Is it definitely that that he thought to be common knowledge, not just that the stones were taken from the region?
- ljf 6y ago
  I asked him just now and he said he thought it was known that the stones were taken from the stone circle there not just mined there. He hangs out with a lot of alternative types there, who are interested in that sort of thing.
  - lovemenot 6y ago
    Ask him for other some common knowledge and filter for what seems surprising to you. Then fact-check those. Perhaps there's diamonds in the rough. Perhaps not.

nathias 6y ago

I wonder how ancient aliens moved it, maybe it was Hitler all along ...

bencollier49 6y ago

What I most enjoy about this is that it appears to corroborate historical records of the wizard Merlin.

adambcn 6y ago
Yes, legend says Merlin used his magic to move Stonehenge from Ireland to England https://voicesfromthedawn.com/stonehenge/ https://voicesfromthedawn.com/stonehenge/

dusted 6y ago

I read this as "built by whales", immediately thought of the Gojira song and now I'm disappointed.

usrusr 6y ago
Stop it! It doesn't help me at all obsercoming my urge to make up some bad joke about how Docker was or wasn't involved in that migration project!
Maursault 6y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee60DLk0-bU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee60DLk0-bU
tabtab 6y ago
The Prince of Whales: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-48622001 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-48622001

fidrelity 6y ago

To everybody who is interested in the possible purpose of Stonehenge and other megalithic structures I can recommend this book: Seed of Knowledge, Stone of Plenty (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/780619.Seed_of_Knowledge_Stone_of_Plenty https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/780619.Seed_of_Knowledge...). It has nothing to do with ancient aliens and the like and is rather scientific about the electromagnetic properties of such structures.

lowdose 6y ago

I don think it is really the case but it could be Stonehenge is the result of the first FOMO. Either build or burn on the stones.

call_me_dana 6y ago

Anyone interested in the Stonehenge topic should check out the Secrets in Plain Sight documentary. https://youtu.be/DHhgLnIvuAs https://youtu.be/DHhgLnIvuAs Stonehenge starts at 57:27

tabtab 6y ago

"Grog, get your ugly art-work out of our neighborhood now! I lowers our cave resell values and attracts mastodons in heat."