24 ms·

System76 Launch Configurable Keyboard with Open Source Code

536 points by nitinreddy88 6y ago

noncoml 6y ago
My advice to HN folks. Buy a keyboard with swappable switches and try out a lot different ones. My favorite ended up being lightly lubed cheery mx red. But you never know unless you try at least a few.
- stock_toaster 6y ago
  Or just but a key test pad, and a few different types of switches, to see which action you prefer. This avoids the need to outlay for a full set of switches (or many!) you end up not liking. I ended up liking Kailh BOX Silent Brown switches.
  - noncoml 6y ago
    I guess. Personally I need to use the keyboard for at least a couple of hours. Some switches that feel nice when you test them, end up being tiring for long term use.
  - DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
    Can you expand on this a little? I sometimes hear of keyboard aficionados having strong preferences for various "colors" of Cherry key switches. And I see high-end keyboards advertised with having particular choices of Cherry switches. But I have no idea if it's actually worth the effort of making the stars align so that I have a particular kind of Cherry switch under my fingers. How do people figure this out without wasting a lot of money? I.e., is there some kind of keyboard that shows off all the popular Cherry switch types? If so, do people end up having to buy one just for that single use, or is there a way to rent one?
    - woodrowbarlow 6y ago
      "switch tester" is the word you're looking for, i.e.: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=109 https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_lis... (or even: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3143070 https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3143070) it's just a frame, no electronics, that you can snap switches into and then mount a keycap onto them. you can get kits that comes with a handful of different switches + a handful of blank keycaps, or just the frame. switches can be purchased individually or in small batches for around $1/per (obviously varying by brand and retailer). you can see how it's a slippery slope from "let me try out a couple switches" to "wanna see my custom keyboard collection?".
      - stock_toaster 6y ago
        I have also bought some keycaps and switches from Kono[1]. They seemed to have a decent selection. [1]:
ehwhyreally 6y ago
https://www.logitechg.com/en-au/products/gaming-keyboards/g815-low-profile-rgb-mechanical-gaming-keyboard.html https://www.logitechg.com/en-au/products/gaming-keyboards/g8... Best keyboard ive ever used, Linear keys. Fantastic for not only gaming but its office safe as its not a loud annoying clunk of crap
sawjet 6y ago
Why does a keyboard need source code? It's just a bunch of addressable switches.
- aidenn0 6y ago
  The HID protocol does not just implement it as addressable switches. In addition there's a question of which address each switch has.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  I mean, even "regular" keyboards have source code these days, it's just usually closed and flashed to the board permanently. The days of keyboards literally being addressable switches ended decades ago. But the reason why you'd want user programmable keyboards is the ability to change which keys do what. My keyboard has four different layouts ("layers") that have totally different keymappings. I use them for daily work, work macros, and video gaming.
  - nine_k 6y ago
    Tandy 80 in 1979 and IBM PC a couple years later already used the Intel 8042 controller in their keyboards. Software for keyboards has a long history. Custom software for keyboards, not as much, but it's a pretty established niche. QMK firmware mentioned in the article is a few years old.
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      My understanding is that QMK backs a lot of custom keyboards and UI configuration tools. My Ergodox EZ runs QMK under the hood.
      - nine_k 6y ago
        This is correct; QMK.FM lists a ton of supported keyboards. (I also got an EZ, but plan to build a Kyria.)
- WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
viraptor 6y ago
I've seen the customisable keyboard firmware a few times now. Could someone explain what's the benefit over just setting a keymap instead? If I can switch to anything including Dvorak already in the OS, why would I want to do that at firmware layer?
- jdboyd 6y ago
  One possible reason is that it would continue being Dvorak if you moved it to a new computer.
  - viraptor 6y ago
    But you can easily switch the other computer to Dvorak as well. Meanwhile anyone else trying to type on your keyboard cannot temporarily reverse to a common layout.
    - germ 6y ago
      But you can do that by changing the default layer. [0] !https://beta.docs.qmk.fm/using-qmk/software-features/feature_layers https://beta.docs.qmk.fm/using-qmk/software-features/feature...
    - GoOnThenDoTell 6y ago
      It’s a bit of a pain sometimes though, for example, when installing a new OS (not all offer all key maps during install), or when you’re not sure if an interviewer will ask you to type on a laptop that you didn’t bring, or if you have a mildly different layout that you prefer that isn’t in the default install of the various OSs
- powersnail 6y ago
  You can add all kinds of modes, like a built-in vim mode for your keyboard. I have programmed three layers, theoretically pretty optimized for text editing. That said, I have forgotten what the third layer shortcuts are, because I never actually used them after day 1.
- 6y ago
tumblewit 6y ago
i've been keeping an eye for this launch. System76 is taking an approach of tiling and gnome combination for their distro with the primary goal of making it more keyboard friendly for developers. A keyboard launch is basically going in that direction. I wonder if their laptops will also take this direction but personally i would like to see a full i3 spin (like fedora) instead because in my experience on an intel pc with intel graphics that too the gnome UI is still buggy. I feel like there is too much going on and if developers are really the focus then adding gnome bloat isn't going to solve anything. i love popOS but i can't stand gnome ...
kscottz 6y ago
Why don't they call it open source hardware? All the parts appear to comply with the OSHWA standard. This product could be certified[0] fairly quickly. [0] https://certification.oshwa.org/ https://certification.oshwa.org/
IgorBog61650384 6y ago
I love the idea but is scaring me a bit security wise. This can be a really hidden persistence method for malware. Imagine the following scenario - memory only malware lands on my computers, identifies the keyboard, uploads a malicious firmware and disappears. Using basic heuristics like time and entropy it detect when I logon to the machine, get my passwords, understands my OS, and what for a hidden signal by the memory only malware. If the signal is not detected for a while because I rebooted my computer or reinstalled it, It unlocks the computer with the password at a time of inactivity, and types in a command like wget/curl to to download the malware again, and so on. I think this can even be used for Virtual Machine escape, as many VMs just pass-through HID commands, so its possible the firmware can be updated from a VM. Kudos to System76 though for providing the firmware, this helps in auditing it and running tools like lint or PVS studio to decrease the chance of bugs like that. They are consistent in being open source and I hope more vendors with firmware follow their lead.
- PurpleFoxy 6y ago
  There is a pretty simple solution for this, require physical input to enter firmware upload mode. Most open source keyboards have a button you press to switch from KB mode to flash target mode. Not sure how this laptop works but a solution would be to require the user to hold fn and some other key for a few seconds before it will accept firmware. This problem btw is actually present in a lot of devices you already use but it’s proprietary. People have found out ways to flash firmware to USB devices, SD cards and hard drives before. It just requires reverse engineering to work it out.
  - IgorBog61650384 6y ago
    You're right, as long as the hardware switch is really hardware and not fake-hardware-implemented-in-software like many vendors.
- userbinator 6y ago
  I'm not too fond of the idea of having the firmware updatable in-place either, but given that the board picture shows it has an ISP header, you could probably disable the self-updating functionality and then you would need to do firmware modifications physically.
ncrmro 6y ago
Now can we make it spilt
- edrxty 6y ago
  This is what you want. Same concept, open firmware, but split. https://www.gboards.ca/products https://www.gboards.ca/products
  - germ 6y ago
    If you're going that route, go for GergoPlex with 12g switches :)
- konart 6y ago
  https://geekhack.org/ https://geekhack.org/ "Interest Checks" and "Group Buys and Preorders" typically have a few running\comming up splits.
- kisamoto 6y ago
  Check out UltimateHackingKeyboard [0] for a developed, split, open-source keyboard. Can definitely recommend. [0] https://uhk.io/ https://uhk.io/
meepmorp 6y ago
Just to be clear, here - system76 launched a keyboard using previously existing, widely used open source keyboard firmware.
- shirro 6y ago
  They also sell computers with open firmware running open source operating systems. I sense a connection.
- uberduper 6y ago
  Imagine the criticism they'd have faced if they'd used anything other than QMK. Their use and presumed future support is a good thing.
  - meepmorp 6y ago
    Absolutely, there's no reason to write your own when QMK gives you so much.
    - mypalmike 6y ago
      QMK is great. But it definitely lacks in some useful abstractions. For instance, lots of split keyboards use IO expanders over I2C, and each one has bespoke code for doing the grid scan.
  - rualca 6y ago
    > Imagine the criticism they'd have faced if they'd used anything other than QMK. You're making it sound like reinventing the wheel to come up with a higher cost and lower quality offering is something to be proud about.
  - CyberDildonics 6y ago
    They were criticizing the title for not being clear, not System76.
  - cestith 6y ago
    I'd also be fine with Kaleidoscope.
konart 6y ago
So.... it's just another QMK based board, no? What's the catch?
zucker42 6y ago
This is super exciting. A high quality keyboard with first class linux support. Does anyone know the price? And it's a 75% layout, which is my personal favorite.
- jagger27 6y ago
  Every single custom mechanical keyboard supports fully customizable open source firmware called QMK or Via. Nothing about any mechanical keyboard with QMK is inherently second-class when it comes to Linux. The other weird thing about this keyboard is that the keycap compatibility is a little bit awkward. The wide delete key, short backspace, small return, and split spacebars are not impossible to replace, but many common MX sets don’t have those keycaps in the base kit. Most GMK base sets will only include the smaller backspace. You’ll need to shell out for the additional “40s” kit for those keys. I don’t know the price but I would estimate at least $250 USD depending on the volume they intend to produce. A keyboard like this run through GeekHack and co would easily go for $350 without keycaps.
  - zucker42 6y ago
    With regards to Linux, I'm thinking about the software tools and documentation they presumably will provide.
kisamoto 6y ago
Personally I've been really happy with my split 60% keyboard from UltimateHackingKeyboard [0]. It also has open source electronics files and firmware I backed them on CrowdSupply some years ago and although it took a while to be delivered have used it extensively since and even purchased a second one for at home & the office. A huge positive while waiting for it was the regular, informative status emails from the founder. Now they are on to v2 [1] with backlighting and better keycaps. The "Agent" firmware is also regularly updated and makes customising the keyboard a breeze. I won't go extensively into the functionality here but it's worth checking out. I am in no-way affiliated with UHK but if anybody is looking for a split, open source, customisable keyboard I would highly recommend. [0] https://uhk.io/ https://uhk.io/ [1] https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/blog/2020/11/05/introducing-the-uhk-60-v2 https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/blog/2020/11/05/introduc...
- senux 6y ago
  The UHK looks awesome. I'd totally use it if it had ortholinear keys.
  - meepmorp 6y ago
    Ergodox might suit you.
    - ashton314 6y ago
      Or the Moonlander made by the same people
      - ashtonkem 6y ago
        It looks like the Moonlander might be a bit better if you’ve got smaller hands. A common complaint about the Ergodox is that the thumb clusters can be a huge reach for those with smaller hands. Personally I have the Ergodox Shine and I love it. If I had to do it again I wouldn’t do the shine though; the backlight just highlights how much cat hair is on my desk.
- 6y ago
svnpenn 6y ago
Why are so many keyboards tiny like this? If I want a small keyboard, I will just use a laptop. I have a huge desk, I don't want a 12" keyboard with 2 weird small space keys, and the arrow keys smashed into the right side.
- least 6y ago
  Because other people want small keyboards, I'd imagine.
  - throwaway81523 6y ago
    If I want a small keyboard I want it with a built in pointing device, and those are hard to find. Lenovo trackpoint keyboard is one of the few I can think of.
    - chr 6y ago
      Tex in Taiwan also make keyboards with trackpoints. https://www.tex-design.com.tw/us-en/products.php?cid=17 https://www.tex-design.com.tw/us-en/products.php?cid=17
    - Semaphor 6y ago
      The Logitech K400 (sold as a smart TV keyboard mainly) is pretty well known, and they have a bunch of other keyboards with touchpad.
      - airbreather 6y ago
        Yeah it's great (I have 5 of them) for remote keyboard for netflix with bigscreen, or for raspberry pi where you can just plug in one USB thing and have keyboard/mouse, but I don't think many people would cope with it for ongoing use.
    - rideontime 6y ago
      UHK offers trackpads, trackballs, and trackpoints for all your tracking needs. https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/shop https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/shop
uberduper 6y ago
That board looks like it's for north facing switches. Like the Drop CTRL. This seems to be a universally disliked switch orientation.
- accelbred 6y ago
  North facing is needed for backlit keycaps, and south facing is needed for cherry profile (not the common OEM profile) keycaps. If using OEM/XDA/DSA there wont be interference with north facing. South facing does prevent use of through switch leds with at least OEM profile. Personally, I use south facing since I use SMD rgb and transparent housings with POM keycaps and the leds on the front look nice.
umvi 6y ago
Is there any eMMC or other non-volatile storage on the PCB? I tried looking through the PCB files but I don't have KiCad. I've always wanted a keyboard with a keylogger inside the keyboard itself. That way it doesn't matter which OS or computer it is attached to, every keystroke is secretly logged inside the keyboard (to be dumped at a later time for examination) Edit: looks like the microcontroller is an Atmel chip [0] which has either 16/32 KB of flash depending on which one. I'm not sure which the system76 keyboard uses. I'm assuming part of that flash is for the firmware itself, but maybe there is extra room for logs as well? [0] https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/docs/Atmel-7766-8-bit-AVR-ATmega16U4-32U4_Datasheet.pdf https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/docs/Atme...
- roel_v 6y ago
  You can buy tiny usb (in the past, PS/2) dongles (more like pass through devices) that do just that.
  - umvi 6y ago
    Yes, I have one, but it's easily removed and replaced. No one would suspect a keylogger inside the keyboard itself.
- lionkor 6y ago
  What use would such a keylogger have, beyond general curiosity about "which words do i type most"?
  - umvi 6y ago
    Well it represents the truth of everything typed on the keyboard, which is useful on shared PCs. Browser histories can be cleared, for example, but the keylogger will still contain every keystroke you typed before covering your tracks. Plus, it can be used for nefarious purposes to harvest credentials, which is probably illegal most of the time, but might be useful for penetration testing and such.
Hamuko 6y ago
I've basically given up on finding a mechanical keyboard since only Matias actually makes any with a Mac keyboard layout and finding a good/available 100% PCB seems nigh-on impossible.
- uberduper 6y ago
  Keychron, gmmk, drop, ducky.. filco? These are all boards you can add to cart right now.
- randmeerkat 6y ago
  “Designed for Mac Unlike other keyboards on the market claiming to be Mac-friendly, Das Keyboard Professional for Mac is specifically designed for maximum compatibility. Give your Mac some love with the best mechanical keyboard on the planet.” https://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-professional-for-mac/ https://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-professional-for-mac/
  - Hamuko 6y ago
    >Designed for Mac This means "we changed the keycaps and remapped two keys" in the mechanical keyboard world. Trust me, this isn't my first time looking through these. There's nothing "designed for Mac" about that. Just look at the non-Mac Model S Professional. They look literally the same except for the keycaps.
    - YetAnotherNick 6y ago
      What's the problem with that? Assuming it works as intended.
      - Hamuko 6y ago
        Allow this 60-second video to express my feelings about these "Mac" keyboards: https://youtu.be/7haqnQvrYfI https://youtu.be/7haqnQvrYfI
- jagger27 6y ago
autocorr 6y ago
So cool that they're using the QMK firmware and open hardware. They also include a split space-bar, taking one of your digits "off the bench" :) [1] I made a crazy ergonomic keyboard, but I think the most useful things in practice are to have a keyboard be programmable and to have multiple keys for the thumbs to use. Backspace is one of the top three most used keys for common computer usage, putting it on the thumb is a huge win over the corner to be used with the pinky (or a Shift, Control, Enter, etc.). The layout is otherwise fairly conservative with dedicated function keys, arrow keys, and navigation keys (albeit in a non-standard cluster). [1] see key layout and mapping: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8ec5e9026d616ebad6b2c7e9d943e7c0 http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8ec5e9026d616e...
- fouric 6y ago
  > Backspace is one of the top three most used keys for common computer usage Where did you get this from? I'm trying to come up with a good layout for my Dactyl-Manuform, so it would be very helpful to know which keys are the most commonly used.
  - autocorr 6y ago
    I was in the same situation for designing my layout too. Most key frequency analyses only look at text corpora. Actual key logging of typical computer usage seems harder to come by. This is a post[1] from a fella who ran a key logger for a while. He found the top three most keys for his usage were Space, Backspace, and E. There are probably better datasets out there because it doesn't break things down, but I suspect Backspace is almost always up there. For my layout, I have Enter and Space on the two home thumb keys and Shift and Backspace on the next outer keys. You can find my layout here[2] for more ideas if you're interested. It does however use palm keys that wouldn't be available on a DM. [1] https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2014/11/12/keyboard-key-frequency/ https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2014/11/12/keyboard-key-frequenc... [2] http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8105b7f97f89fa09b1414e11bad41a9c http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8105b7f97f89fa...
enriquto 6y ago
Why the staggered layout? I'd kill for a laptop with a matrix key disposition (called "ortholinear" in some circles).
- kqr 6y ago
  Yeah, this one keeps surprising me. It's not like moving to aligned rows would be a huge transition like e.g. moving to Colemak. We could just make the keyboard like that and we'll be done with the transition in 40 or so years. (Of course I know many reasons why that's not happening. I'm just frustrated by the staggerphilia all around.)
- shirro 6y ago
  I already have more staggered keyboards than I can use from 60% to full size. Not much incentive to buy more unless you are Chryosan22 and need all the keyboards. But I don't have an ortho. I am curious to try one but I know from experience something like a plank would be too limited. I don't mind giving up the keypad but I like 6 rows and nav keys. I might be more likely to buy an ortho variant just for something different.
  - enriquto 6y ago
    > I like 6 rows and nav keys. This has nothing to do with being staggered or not. I use a typematrix 2030 and it has function keys, arrows, and everything, in a split and matricial layout.
    - shirro 6y ago
      Ideally I would be looking for an affordable and customisable mechanical with sockets and open firmware that is a matrix rather than a specialised ergo/split. Most "enthusiast" ortho mechanicals seem to be smaller like the plank and appeal to the people who like layers. I know I don't enjoy lots of layer shifting with smaller keyboards. I have been tempted to build something like an XD75 which is 75 ortho keys in a 60% size. I have also been considering doing a hand wire. More for the fun of making stuff than any necessity. There are bigger orthos aimed at point of sale and ergo users but their features are a bit different.
shmerl 6y ago
Why not use Unix layout?
aasasd 6y ago
No ergonomics, as usual: problems are carefully passed on like heirlooms. The only good thing physically is that the mouse won't be pushed away by the numpad.
- red_trumpet 6y ago
  Thanks, you just gave me a reason why some peope may not like numpads on their keyboards. As a left-handed person I never realised that the numpad is where you would want to have your mouse :D
  - aasasd 6y ago
    I'm a rightie, but I periodically move the mouse to the other side, partly to avoid too much RSI and partly exactly because the numpad was in the way—especially with MS' ‘Natural 4000’ keyboard that takes half the desk. With the ‘Sculpt’ keyboard I finally learned how much space there is. Combined with the fact that the numpad for me is pretty much completely useless outside of entering one-time codes for online purchases and Steam login—I'm quite grateful that it's a separate unit on Sculpt. That's all despite the fact that I'm a programmer and supposed to love the digits: purportedly that's how they ended up in ‘lowercase’ on the second-top row of the keyboard, i.e. pressed without the shift key (and Apple managed to stick dot and comma in the upper register on that row, in my language's layout). I actually tried to change the mapping so that the symbols are entered without shift, but somehow that breaks a lot of muscle memory of which I didn't even know. I'm vaguely curious about one setup that seemingly would be especially ergonomic: an Advantage keyboard with a trackpad in the middle. There's almost exactly enough space for a trackpad there, and I've seen kludgey setups that slap a trackpad on an Advantage. A less-ideal split keyboard like Freestyle would probably work too. Meanwhile, semi-portable keyboards like Microsoft's ‘All-In-One’ still go the tired staggered flat-board path and attach a trackpad at the end, despite the opportunity.
tlhunter 6y ago
Note that the System 76 laptop keyboards are also hardware programmable.
wishinghand 6y ago
I’d be much more excited if they released a laptop variant with ortholinear keys or close to it if they decide to stagger the columns a bit.
- jeromenerf 6y ago
  ... and a split space bar and QMK! The offer is pretty good for external keyboard enthusiasts. One can buy a controller, hand wire switches to it and scatter them over a sphere, with custom celestial keycaps for a hundred dollars. On laptop though, I have not seen much more than retrofitting old Lenovo keyboards on newer generations, with some pretty fragile firmware patches.
IshKebab 6y ago
Looks like it can't be converted to a UK layout unfortunately.
Quequau 6y ago
Over twenty years I've spent too much money trying to get a keyboard that really worked for me... and I finally gave up and I now use the cheapest disposable crap from hole-in-the-wall electrical / electronics shop that I can walk to. Nearly all the DIY keyboards I've seen are ruthlessly minimalistic and I really would prefer a larger keyboard with more keys, so I don't have to remember lots of meta-key combination short-cuts. I don't think I've memorised all the keyboard short cuts in a given piece of software in a decade... I just don't really use one particular thing enough to make it worthwhile. That keyboard with the active LED keycaps came out in what... 2006? I expected a regular keyboard with small set of active keycaps for macro keys would have existed by now. Come to think of it, I never used an Apple laptop with that active TouchBar thing either but that doesn't seem to have achieved enduring popularity. but I guess there's no real market for that either.
- daveleebbc 6y ago
  Sounds like you're just after a 80% keyboard or bigger, no? Plenty out there with all benefits of going premium/mechanical. Search for "TKL mechanical keyboard" and you'll maybe find what you're looking for. It's everything except the number pad.
- dgregd 6y ago
  You can have two keyboards. A first ergonomic split keyboard for the alpha keys. A second keyboard _only_ for function keys (placed between the split keyboard), an ortholinear planck keyboard with QMK firmware would be ideal. With QMK you can program a single key to send a complex combination like Alt+Shift+F10 (the Run... action in IntelliJ), you get the idea. Moreover you can make [1] the same key to do the same action in different OSes and programs. No need to remember different shortcuts how to switch tabs in a browser and in a text editor. [1] https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/users/miles2go/babblePaste.md https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/users/miles2...
  - Quequau 6y ago
    I have sorta tried this. Razer makes a macro keypad which they call "orbweaver" and it also has a nifty thumb switch which I suppose they intended to be used for the wasd movement in games. Unfortunately, it's designed to be used with the left hand and I mouse with my left hand. I would dearly love a macro keypad exactly like an orbweaver but which was designed for use with the right hand. So I also now own an unbranded "ambidextrous" macro keypad. Besides the fact that it is great example of how ostensibly ambidextrous devices being really not that great for left handed people, I mostly used it for gaming but as I am not much of a gamer it doesn't get used often. I also migrated from a Mac desktop to Linux. I had a very nice application for macros on MacOS called ControllerMate but I've yet to find anything remotely similar for Linux.
woile 6y ago
This is great, I hope more companies were like system76. It's seems to me they are starting to produce their own hardware, but into the open. If I'm allowed to dream, they could be an open Mac some day. We sell you this optimized hardware and software, but you own it, do whatever you want.
eeZah7Ux 6y ago
The key placement is not ergonomic. Why not using an ortholinear layout?
andrewshadura 6y ago
The important question is: does it come with an ISO layout?
- vman81 6y ago
  Seems like they placed the controller right under where the left shift button is on ISO layout, so no, not without some significant redesign.
sneak 6y ago
What security features are in place to prevent unauthorized replacement of firmware by someone other than the keyboard owner? Seems to me something like this you'd want to be able to blow a pubkey into once when you buy it, and have it never accept unsigned firmware or new keys.
slazaro 6y ago
Every time I read about people's obsessions with keyboards I feel like an outsider. Am I weird? I've been using the same Logitech K120 that costs around 10€/$10, my muscle memory is important. The keys are in the usual places instead of multi-function keys, arrow keys are separated, it has a numpad... I'd like to have dedicated media keys, but that's the only thing I'd change. I keep buying it and have spare ones just in case.
- rkangel 6y ago
  I do know what you mean - there's a standard keyboard layout, it works well, there are plenty of keyboards using it. But then, I do care about the action of my keys - it's a small detail but I spend all day in front of a keyboard - and so I have a >£100 Das Keyboard. It's all a question of degrees. Maybe also there's a component of 'expression of self'. We are individuals with individual personalities. As coders our keyboard is important so it's a more productive medium than most to express our individual tastes.
- ethanbond 6y ago
  The way I view it is muscle memory is important because you use the tool so frequently. For the same reason, continuous minor improvements can add up quickly. People definitely go overboard but I think it’s worth it to experiment a little bit and see if you can gradually optimize some things you do a lot. I’m a big fan of the Ergodox keyboards and having a decent number of layers. For example, holding W turns my right hand into a window manager. Holding F turns my right hand into an app switch (H = Chrome, J = IntelliJ etc). All of this is on/near the home row so it’s minimally straining. Learning curves on new keyboards are awful though!
- zaat 6y ago
  No you are not weird, you are the standard, and that's why you are likely to have no difficulties to get your favorite keyboard at comfortable price in the foreseeable future. The weird ones are us, the custom mechanical keyboard enthusiasts, and because we are niche and have particular needs we pay much more and have much more to discuss.
- sergiosgc 6y ago
kohlerm 6y ago
what is odd is that the keyboard configurator https://github.com/pop-os/keyboard-configurator https://github.com/pop-os/keyboard-configurator references System76 laptops. Does that mean QMK will come to System76 laptops?
- bluGill 6y ago
  System 76 has for years been known to be working on making their own laptop designs. They are going slow to create a quality product that they don't lost money on. This looks like another of the baby steps needed along the way.
varispeed 6y ago
This is great but where do you buy keycaps? Do you know why you virtually cannot find any flat key caps anywhere? Even the Kailh launched their v2 low profile keycap, but good luck finding any keycaps. Sure you can attach regular caps with the cherry mount, but if you want to build a flat keyboard, it's just not possible :( Only way so far I found is to chase people who do DIY molds or pay $$$ for a custom run (which you'll end up with a bathtub of keycaps and an empty wallet). Why nobody is doing these?
- selfhoster11 6y ago
  AliExpress has a wide selection.
  - varispeed 6y ago
    Do you have links? I have literally spent hours there and couldn't find any flat keycap except for older Kailh mount. There is nothing to match Kailh v2 / Cherry MX mount. Only found a company on Alibaba that could make me some, but I can't afford it. I considered 3d printing old Kailh to Cherry MX adapter, but that won't be pretty :(
- sigprof 6y ago
  A much worse problem with this keyboard is that you almost cannot buy even regular MX-compatible keycaps for it, because the system76 people chose a really nonstandard physical layout. 1.5U Caps Lock, 1.5U Delete in the function key row, 1.5U Backspace in the number row, 1U backslash in the QWERTY row, 1.5U Enter in the ASDF row — these keycaps don't exist in most sets, except in some “40%” or ”ergo” addon kits (and even there you may not get the exact legend match for some of them, although for Caps Lock that may be a feature). 1.5U Shift is also really rare. So if you don't like the stock keycaps (which have the uniform XDA profile, and some people just don't like it), replacing them would be hard and/or expensive.
emptysongglass 6y ago
Where is it launched? There's no blog post and no product page.
surfsvammel 6y ago
Can someone tell me what this brings to the table? Isn’t there already a gazillion keyboards like this and already open source stuff if anyone want to build a keyboard like this?
- bluGill 6y ago
  Made in the USA, which means no questionable labor practices compared to China. This might or might not matter to you. It is also another step in System 76s long run to produce their own laptop in house. Today they just put their label on an off the shelf laptop (the advantage of buying from them is they are a large enough customer that they can demand linux compatible parts, while if you buy the same laptop you might discovered they substituted some incompatible part for something). However making their own laptops from scratch gives them flexibility to make them with the specs linux users say they want. (it remains to be seen if linux users will actually buy what they say they want)
rbanffy 6y ago
I'm feeling a bit old now with my unconfigurable non-RGB 122 key Unicomp Model-M. It's not compact, however.
BeniBoy 6y ago
I am the only one that is very ill-at-ease with that PCB [1]? The routing seems.. off? No straight trace, irregular component placement. Its the kind of work where seemingly "superficial" concern like that are in fact quite usefull, a clean PCB makes it easier to find issues and do repairs. [1]:https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/launch-pcb.png https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/launch-pc...
- HarryBeadle 6y ago
  Yeah, this PCB is... horrible.
- RL_Quine 6y ago
  Looks like it was made with TopoR autorouter. https://www.eremex.com/products/topor/ https://www.eremex.com/products/topor/
- myself248 6y ago
  Looks beautiful to me. Rectilinear tracks were an artifact of early layout software; there's no electrical need for them. I find it visually easier to trace tracks that aren't perfectly parallel, too. This is splendid in that regard, pairs are obviously pairs, but their spacing to other pairs is variable (which also suggests slow transitions in impedance rather than step-changes; another benefit). If anything, this looks like it moves a lot of components out into their own space, where they won't be shadowed by others in case of rework. Looks great to me.
eqvinox 6y ago
Why are we still making keyboards with a "Caps Lock" key on them in 2021? It's actively harmful on a functional level. And when you strip the function, the large key doesn't make sense anymore. I'd rather have 2 regular-size blank keys in its place (& if you really need Caps Lock you can map it to one of them.) (My Caps Lock is remapped to be a Compose key, but I'd rather have 2 keys there that I can remap. The space is there and it's nicely reachable.)
1MachineElf 6y ago
I rock a custom QMK keymap that only needs 34 keys [0], so I was expecting not to be impressed by this board when I saw the prototype [1], but highlights on this repo look quite good actually. Here's the ones that stand out to me: - detachable lift bar - swappable switches - integrated dock - per-key RGB - QMK - open source design I'm also a fan of two choices made with the layout. First, the split spacebars - it's better to give each thumb it's own job. Second, the minimization of modifier keys requiring stabilizers, because smooth consistent stabilizers are hard to get right. [0] https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/_sb4dv_refactor/keyboards/planck/keymaps/sb4dv https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/_sb4dv_refa... [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2020/03/18/linux-pc-company-system76-is-pulling-an-apple-and-designing-its-own-keyboard/?sh=17bb5b669c0c https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2020/03/18/linux...
notorandit 6y ago
Neat idea. Having an USB hub into the keybaord makes things easier on crowded desks. I know there have already been a few in the market, but this one looks gorgeous!
vermaden 6y ago
I am currently compatible with two kinds of keyboards. - ThinkPad 7-row laptop ANSI keyboard (like in T420) - 87 keys ANSI keyboard (does not have to be mechanical) [1] All other keyboard layouts literally does not exist for me - not matter how 'hackable' or 'open source' or configurable they are ... [1] https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/images/products/large_914_es87_front1000.png https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/images/products/large_9...
- Liskni_si 6y ago
  Just wanted to say that you're not alone. I'm used to the ISO layout, but that's a minor difference. I'm really glad they did the ThinkPad 25, and I really don't know what I'm going to do when that thing becomes too old to be usable. :-(
  - vermaden 6y ago
    I wonder when ThinkPad 25 will start to show on EBAY or other places in normal prices ... currently its almost the same as for new one ...
    - Liskni_si 6y ago
      I sincerely hope I won't have to find out the answer to that. :-) Anyway, for anyone thinking of getting one, it's worth checking out this as well: https://www.xyte.ch/shop/t25-frankenpad-kit/ https://www.xyte.ch/shop/t25-frankenpad-kit/ and https://www.xyte.ch/thinkpads/t25-frankenpad/ https://www.xyte.ch/thinkpads/t25-frankenpad/
      - vermaden 6y ago
        Thank You for showing me these ... maybe I will be forced to get FrankenPad instead :) Cheers.
adolph 6y ago
So many words about the keyboard but nothing about the microcontroller. I wonder what they will use?
- swalsh 6y ago
  You can see it in the source: https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/launch-bom.csv https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/launch-bo... I think it is a ATmega32U4-MU
zingplex 6y ago
I wonder how the latency is on this. https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/ https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/
jakearmitage 6y ago
To the keyboard enthusiasts lurking here: what do I buy in order to get less latency? I already dropped X in order to get less software in my way, but I also want to get hardware out of my way.
thayne 6y ago
No tenkey sadly. I know a lot of keyboard enthusiasts don't like tenkeys, but I would have a hard time giving that up. Although, it would be nice to have the tenkey on the left so I don't have to move my hand over it to get to the mouse.
- phowat 6y ago
  I have a separate tenkey placed on the left side of my keyboard. Works pretty well for me.
currymj 6y ago
are there pictures of the finished product from the outside? how long until I can buy this?
nethmo09 6y ago
Hello
samtuke 6y ago
Sooner or later bigger brands will inevitably take the existing qmk ecosystem mainstream. Enjoy being a member of a niche while it lasts. (Lily58 user here).

536 points by nitinreddy88 6y ago

My advice to HN folks. Buy a keyboard with swappable switches and try out a lot different ones. My favorite ended up being lightly lubed cheery mx red. But you never know unless you try at least a few.

stock_toaster 6y ago
Or just but a key test pad, and a few different types of switches, to see which action you prefer. This avoids the need to outlay for a full set of switches (or many!) you end up not liking. I ended up liking Kailh BOX Silent Brown switches.
- noncoml 6y ago
  I guess. Personally I need to use the keyboard for at least a couple of hours. Some switches that feel nice when you test them, end up being tiring for long term use.
- DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
  Can you expand on this a little? I sometimes hear of keyboard aficionados having strong preferences for various "colors" of Cherry key switches. And I see high-end keyboards advertised with having particular choices of Cherry switches. But I have no idea if it's actually worth the effort of making the stars align so that I have a particular kind of Cherry switch under my fingers. How do people figure this out without wasting a lot of money? I.e., is there some kind of keyboard that shows off all the popular Cherry switch types? If so, do people end up having to buy one just for that single use, or is there a way to rent one?
  - woodrowbarlow 6y ago
    "switch tester" is the word you're looking for, i.e.: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=109 https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_lis... (or even: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3143070 https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3143070) it's just a frame, no electronics, that you can snap switches into and then mount a keycap onto them. you can get kits that comes with a handful of different switches + a handful of blank keycaps, or just the frame. switches can be purchased individually or in small batches for around $1/per (obviously varying by brand and retailer). you can see how it's a slippery slope from "let me try out a couple switches" to "wanna see my custom keyboard collection?".
    - stock_toaster 6y ago
      I have also bought some keycaps and switches from Kono[1]. They seemed to have a decent selection. [1]:

ehwhyreally 6y ago

https://www.logitechg.com/en-au/products/gaming-keyboards/g815-low-profile-rgb-mechanical-gaming-keyboard.html https://www.logitechg.com/en-au/products/gaming-keyboards/g8... Best keyboard ive ever used, Linear keys. Fantastic for not only gaming but its office safe as its not a loud annoying clunk of crap

sawjet 6y ago

Why does a keyboard need source code? It's just a bunch of addressable switches.

aidenn0 6y ago
The HID protocol does not just implement it as addressable switches. In addition there's a question of which address each switch has.
ashtonkem 6y ago
I mean, even "regular" keyboards have source code these days, it's just usually closed and flashed to the board permanently. The days of keyboards literally being addressable switches ended decades ago. But the reason why you'd want user programmable keyboards is the ability to change which keys do what. My keyboard has four different layouts ("layers") that have totally different keymappings. I use them for daily work, work macros, and video gaming.
- nine_k 6y ago
  Tandy 80 in 1979 and IBM PC a couple years later already used the Intel 8042 controller in their keyboards. Software for keyboards has a long history. Custom software for keyboards, not as much, but it's a pretty established niche. QMK firmware mentioned in the article is a few years old.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    My understanding is that QMK backs a lot of custom keyboards and UI configuration tools. My Ergodox EZ runs QMK under the hood.
    - nine_k 6y ago
      This is correct; QMK.FM lists a ton of supported keyboards. (I also got an EZ, but plan to build a Kyria.)
WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago

viraptor 6y ago

I've seen the customisable keyboard firmware a few times now. Could someone explain what's the benefit over just setting a keymap instead? If I can switch to anything including Dvorak already in the OS, why would I want to do that at firmware layer?

jdboyd 6y ago
One possible reason is that it would continue being Dvorak if you moved it to a new computer.
- viraptor 6y ago
  But you can easily switch the other computer to Dvorak as well. Meanwhile anyone else trying to type on your keyboard cannot temporarily reverse to a common layout.
  - germ 6y ago
    But you can do that by changing the default layer. [0] !https://beta.docs.qmk.fm/using-qmk/software-features/feature_layers https://beta.docs.qmk.fm/using-qmk/software-features/feature...
  - GoOnThenDoTell 6y ago
    It’s a bit of a pain sometimes though, for example, when installing a new OS (not all offer all key maps during install), or when you’re not sure if an interviewer will ask you to type on a laptop that you didn’t bring, or if you have a mildly different layout that you prefer that isn’t in the default install of the various OSs
powersnail 6y ago
You can add all kinds of modes, like a built-in vim mode for your keyboard. I have programmed three layers, theoretically pretty optimized for text editing. That said, I have forgotten what the third layer shortcuts are, because I never actually used them after day 1.
6y ago

tumblewit 6y ago

i've been keeping an eye for this launch. System76 is taking an approach of tiling and gnome combination for their distro with the primary goal of making it more keyboard friendly for developers. A keyboard launch is basically going in that direction. I wonder if their laptops will also take this direction but personally i would like to see a full i3 spin (like fedora) instead because in my experience on an intel pc with intel graphics that too the gnome UI is still buggy. I feel like there is too much going on and if developers are really the focus then adding gnome bloat isn't going to solve anything. i love popOS but i can't stand gnome ...

kscottz 6y ago

Why don't they call it open source hardware? All the parts appear to comply with the OSHWA standard. This product could be certified[0] fairly quickly. [0] https://certification.oshwa.org/ https://certification.oshwa.org/

IgorBog61650384 6y ago

I love the idea but is scaring me a bit security wise. This can be a really hidden persistence method for malware. Imagine the following scenario - memory only malware lands on my computers, identifies the keyboard, uploads a malicious firmware and disappears. Using basic heuristics like time and entropy it detect when I logon to the machine, get my passwords, understands my OS, and what for a hidden signal by the memory only malware. If the signal is not detected for a while because I rebooted my computer or reinstalled it, It unlocks the computer with the password at a time of inactivity, and types in a command like wget/curl to to download the malware again, and so on. I think this can even be used for Virtual Machine escape, as many VMs just pass-through HID commands, so its possible the firmware can be updated from a VM. Kudos to System76 though for providing the firmware, this helps in auditing it and running tools like lint or PVS studio to decrease the chance of bugs like that. They are consistent in being open source and I hope more vendors with firmware follow their lead.

PurpleFoxy 6y ago
There is a pretty simple solution for this, require physical input to enter firmware upload mode. Most open source keyboards have a button you press to switch from KB mode to flash target mode. Not sure how this laptop works but a solution would be to require the user to hold fn and some other key for a few seconds before it will accept firmware. This problem btw is actually present in a lot of devices you already use but it’s proprietary. People have found out ways to flash firmware to USB devices, SD cards and hard drives before. It just requires reverse engineering to work it out.
- IgorBog61650384 6y ago
  You're right, as long as the hardware switch is really hardware and not fake-hardware-implemented-in-software like many vendors.
userbinator 6y ago
I'm not too fond of the idea of having the firmware updatable in-place either, but given that the board picture shows it has an ISP header, you could probably disable the self-updating functionality and then you would need to do firmware modifications physically.

ncrmro 6y ago

Now can we make it spilt

edrxty 6y ago
This is what you want. Same concept, open firmware, but split. https://www.gboards.ca/products https://www.gboards.ca/products
- germ 6y ago
  If you're going that route, go for GergoPlex with 12g switches :)
konart 6y ago
https://geekhack.org/ https://geekhack.org/ "Interest Checks" and "Group Buys and Preorders" typically have a few running\comming up splits.
kisamoto 6y ago
Check out UltimateHackingKeyboard [0] for a developed, split, open-source keyboard. Can definitely recommend. [0] https://uhk.io/ https://uhk.io/

meepmorp 6y ago

Just to be clear, here - system76 launched a keyboard using previously existing, widely used open source keyboard firmware.

shirro 6y ago
They also sell computers with open firmware running open source operating systems. I sense a connection.
uberduper 6y ago
Imagine the criticism they'd have faced if they'd used anything other than QMK. Their use and presumed future support is a good thing.
- meepmorp 6y ago
  Absolutely, there's no reason to write your own when QMK gives you so much.
  - mypalmike 6y ago
    QMK is great. But it definitely lacks in some useful abstractions. For instance, lots of split keyboards use IO expanders over I2C, and each one has bespoke code for doing the grid scan.
- rualca 6y ago
  > Imagine the criticism they'd have faced if they'd used anything other than QMK. You're making it sound like reinventing the wheel to come up with a higher cost and lower quality offering is something to be proud about.
- CyberDildonics 6y ago
  They were criticizing the title for not being clear, not System76.
- cestith 6y ago
  I'd also be fine with Kaleidoscope.

konart 6y ago

So.... it's just another QMK based board, no? What's the catch?

zucker42 6y ago

This is super exciting. A high quality keyboard with first class linux support. Does anyone know the price? And it's a 75% layout, which is my personal favorite.

jagger27 6y ago
Every single custom mechanical keyboard supports fully customizable open source firmware called QMK or Via. Nothing about any mechanical keyboard with QMK is inherently second-class when it comes to Linux. The other weird thing about this keyboard is that the keycap compatibility is a little bit awkward. The wide delete key, short backspace, small return, and split spacebars are not impossible to replace, but many common MX sets don’t have those keycaps in the base kit. Most GMK base sets will only include the smaller backspace. You’ll need to shell out for the additional “40s” kit for those keys. I don’t know the price but I would estimate at least $250 USD depending on the volume they intend to produce. A keyboard like this run through GeekHack and co would easily go for $350 without keycaps.
- zucker42 6y ago
  With regards to Linux, I'm thinking about the software tools and documentation they presumably will provide.

kisamoto 6y ago

Personally I've been really happy with my split 60% keyboard from UltimateHackingKeyboard [0]. It also has open source electronics files and firmware I backed them on CrowdSupply some years ago and although it took a while to be delivered have used it extensively since and even purchased a second one for at home & the office. A huge positive while waiting for it was the regular, informative status emails from the founder. Now they are on to v2 [1] with backlighting and better keycaps. The "Agent" firmware is also regularly updated and makes customising the keyboard a breeze. I won't go extensively into the functionality here but it's worth checking out. I am in no-way affiliated with UHK but if anybody is looking for a split, open source, customisable keyboard I would highly recommend. [0] https://uhk.io/ https://uhk.io/ [1] https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/blog/2020/11/05/introducing-the-uhk-60-v2 https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/blog/2020/11/05/introduc...

senux 6y ago
The UHK looks awesome. I'd totally use it if it had ortholinear keys.
- meepmorp 6y ago
  Ergodox might suit you.
  - ashton314 6y ago
    Or the Moonlander made by the same people
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      It looks like the Moonlander might be a bit better if you’ve got smaller hands. A common complaint about the Ergodox is that the thumb clusters can be a huge reach for those with smaller hands. Personally I have the Ergodox Shine and I love it. If I had to do it again I wouldn’t do the shine though; the backlight just highlights how much cat hair is on my desk.
6y ago

svnpenn 6y ago

Why are so many keyboards tiny like this? If I want a small keyboard, I will just use a laptop. I have a huge desk, I don't want a 12" keyboard with 2 weird small space keys, and the arrow keys smashed into the right side.

least 6y ago
Because other people want small keyboards, I'd imagine.
- throwaway81523 6y ago
  If I want a small keyboard I want it with a built in pointing device, and those are hard to find. Lenovo trackpoint keyboard is one of the few I can think of.
  - chr 6y ago
    Tex in Taiwan also make keyboards with trackpoints. https://www.tex-design.com.tw/us-en/products.php?cid=17 https://www.tex-design.com.tw/us-en/products.php?cid=17
  - Semaphor 6y ago
    The Logitech K400 (sold as a smart TV keyboard mainly) is pretty well known, and they have a bunch of other keyboards with touchpad.
    - airbreather 6y ago
      Yeah it's great (I have 5 of them) for remote keyboard for netflix with bigscreen, or for raspberry pi where you can just plug in one USB thing and have keyboard/mouse, but I don't think many people would cope with it for ongoing use.
  - rideontime 6y ago
    UHK offers trackpads, trackballs, and trackpoints for all your tracking needs. https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/shop https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/shop

uberduper 6y ago

That board looks like it's for north facing switches. Like the Drop CTRL. This seems to be a universally disliked switch orientation.

accelbred 6y ago
North facing is needed for backlit keycaps, and south facing is needed for cherry profile (not the common OEM profile) keycaps. If using OEM/XDA/DSA there wont be interference with north facing. South facing does prevent use of through switch leds with at least OEM profile. Personally, I use south facing since I use SMD rgb and transparent housings with POM keycaps and the leds on the front look nice.

umvi 6y ago

Is there any eMMC or other non-volatile storage on the PCB? I tried looking through the PCB files but I don't have KiCad. I've always wanted a keyboard with a keylogger inside the keyboard itself. That way it doesn't matter which OS or computer it is attached to, every keystroke is secretly logged inside the keyboard (to be dumped at a later time for examination) Edit: looks like the microcontroller is an Atmel chip [0] which has either 16/32 KB of flash depending on which one. I'm not sure which the system76 keyboard uses. I'm assuming part of that flash is for the firmware itself, but maybe there is extra room for logs as well? [0] https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/docs/Atmel-7766-8-bit-AVR-ATmega16U4-32U4_Datasheet.pdf https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/docs/Atme...

roel_v 6y ago
You can buy tiny usb (in the past, PS/2) dongles (more like pass through devices) that do just that.
- umvi 6y ago
  Yes, I have one, but it's easily removed and replaced. No one would suspect a keylogger inside the keyboard itself.
lionkor 6y ago
What use would such a keylogger have, beyond general curiosity about "which words do i type most"?
- umvi 6y ago
  Well it represents the truth of everything typed on the keyboard, which is useful on shared PCs. Browser histories can be cleared, for example, but the keylogger will still contain every keystroke you typed before covering your tracks. Plus, it can be used for nefarious purposes to harvest credentials, which is probably illegal most of the time, but might be useful for penetration testing and such.

Hamuko 6y ago

I've basically given up on finding a mechanical keyboard since only Matias actually makes any with a Mac keyboard layout and finding a good/available 100% PCB seems nigh-on impossible.

uberduper 6y ago
Keychron, gmmk, drop, ducky.. filco? These are all boards you can add to cart right now.
randmeerkat 6y ago
“Designed for Mac Unlike other keyboards on the market claiming to be Mac-friendly, Das Keyboard Professional for Mac is specifically designed for maximum compatibility. Give your Mac some love with the best mechanical keyboard on the planet.” https://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-professional-for-mac/ https://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-professional-for-mac/
- Hamuko 6y ago
  >Designed for Mac This means "we changed the keycaps and remapped two keys" in the mechanical keyboard world. Trust me, this isn't my first time looking through these. There's nothing "designed for Mac" about that. Just look at the non-Mac Model S Professional. They look literally the same except for the keycaps.
  - YetAnotherNick 6y ago
    What's the problem with that? Assuming it works as intended.
    - Hamuko 6y ago
      Allow this 60-second video to express my feelings about these "Mac" keyboards: https://youtu.be/7haqnQvrYfI https://youtu.be/7haqnQvrYfI
jagger27 6y ago

autocorr 6y ago

So cool that they're using the QMK firmware and open hardware. They also include a split space-bar, taking one of your digits "off the bench" :) [1] I made a crazy ergonomic keyboard, but I think the most useful things in practice are to have a keyboard be programmable and to have multiple keys for the thumbs to use. Backspace is one of the top three most used keys for common computer usage, putting it on the thumb is a huge win over the corner to be used with the pinky (or a Shift, Control, Enter, etc.). The layout is otherwise fairly conservative with dedicated function keys, arrow keys, and navigation keys (albeit in a non-standard cluster). [1] see key layout and mapping: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8ec5e9026d616ebad6b2c7e9d943e7c0 http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8ec5e9026d616e...

fouric 6y ago
> Backspace is one of the top three most used keys for common computer usage Where did you get this from? I'm trying to come up with a good layout for my Dactyl-Manuform, so it would be very helpful to know which keys are the most commonly used.
- autocorr 6y ago
  I was in the same situation for designing my layout too. Most key frequency analyses only look at text corpora. Actual key logging of typical computer usage seems harder to come by. This is a post[1] from a fella who ran a key logger for a while. He found the top three most keys for his usage were Space, Backspace, and E. There are probably better datasets out there because it doesn't break things down, but I suspect Backspace is almost always up there. For my layout, I have Enter and Space on the two home thumb keys and Shift and Backspace on the next outer keys. You can find my layout here[2] for more ideas if you're interested. It does however use palm keys that wouldn't be available on a DM. [1] https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2014/11/12/keyboard-key-frequency/ https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2014/11/12/keyboard-key-frequenc... [2] http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8105b7f97f89fa09b1414e11bad41a9c http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8105b7f97f89fa...

enriquto 6y ago

Why the staggered layout? I'd kill for a laptop with a matrix key disposition (called "ortholinear" in some circles).

kqr 6y ago
Yeah, this one keeps surprising me. It's not like moving to aligned rows would be a huge transition like e.g. moving to Colemak. We could just make the keyboard like that and we'll be done with the transition in 40 or so years. (Of course I know many reasons why that's not happening. I'm just frustrated by the staggerphilia all around.)
shirro 6y ago
I already have more staggered keyboards than I can use from 60% to full size. Not much incentive to buy more unless you are Chryosan22 and need all the keyboards. But I don't have an ortho. I am curious to try one but I know from experience something like a plank would be too limited. I don't mind giving up the keypad but I like 6 rows and nav keys. I might be more likely to buy an ortho variant just for something different.
- enriquto 6y ago
  > I like 6 rows and nav keys. This has nothing to do with being staggered or not. I use a typematrix 2030 and it has function keys, arrows, and everything, in a split and matricial layout.
  - shirro 6y ago
    Ideally I would be looking for an affordable and customisable mechanical with sockets and open firmware that is a matrix rather than a specialised ergo/split. Most "enthusiast" ortho mechanicals seem to be smaller like the plank and appeal to the people who like layers. I know I don't enjoy lots of layer shifting with smaller keyboards. I have been tempted to build something like an XD75 which is 75 ortho keys in a 60% size. I have also been considering doing a hand wire. More for the fun of making stuff than any necessity. There are bigger orthos aimed at point of sale and ergo users but their features are a bit different.

shmerl 6y ago

Why not use Unix layout?

aasasd 6y ago

No ergonomics, as usual: problems are carefully passed on like heirlooms. The only good thing physically is that the mouse won't be pushed away by the numpad.

red_trumpet 6y ago
Thanks, you just gave me a reason why some peope may not like numpads on their keyboards. As a left-handed person I never realised that the numpad is where you would want to have your mouse :D
- aasasd 6y ago
  I'm a rightie, but I periodically move the mouse to the other side, partly to avoid too much RSI and partly exactly because the numpad was in the way—especially with MS' ‘Natural 4000’ keyboard that takes half the desk. With the ‘Sculpt’ keyboard I finally learned how much space there is. Combined with the fact that the numpad for me is pretty much completely useless outside of entering one-time codes for online purchases and Steam login—I'm quite grateful that it's a separate unit on Sculpt. That's all despite the fact that I'm a programmer and supposed to love the digits: purportedly that's how they ended up in ‘lowercase’ on the second-top row of the keyboard, i.e. pressed without the shift key (and Apple managed to stick dot and comma in the upper register on that row, in my language's layout). I actually tried to change the mapping so that the symbols are entered without shift, but somehow that breaks a lot of muscle memory of which I didn't even know. I'm vaguely curious about one setup that seemingly would be especially ergonomic: an Advantage keyboard with a trackpad in the middle. There's almost exactly enough space for a trackpad there, and I've seen kludgey setups that slap a trackpad on an Advantage. A less-ideal split keyboard like Freestyle would probably work too. Meanwhile, semi-portable keyboards like Microsoft's ‘All-In-One’ still go the tired staggered flat-board path and attach a trackpad at the end, despite the opportunity.

tlhunter 6y ago

Note that the System 76 laptop keyboards are also hardware programmable.

wishinghand 6y ago

I’d be much more excited if they released a laptop variant with ortholinear keys or close to it if they decide to stagger the columns a bit.

jeromenerf 6y ago
... and a split space bar and QMK! The offer is pretty good for external keyboard enthusiasts. One can buy a controller, hand wire switches to it and scatter them over a sphere, with custom celestial keycaps for a hundred dollars. On laptop though, I have not seen much more than retrofitting old Lenovo keyboards on newer generations, with some pretty fragile firmware patches.

IshKebab 6y ago

Looks like it can't be converted to a UK layout unfortunately.

Quequau 6y ago

Over twenty years I've spent too much money trying to get a keyboard that really worked for me... and I finally gave up and I now use the cheapest disposable crap from hole-in-the-wall electrical / electronics shop that I can walk to. Nearly all the DIY keyboards I've seen are ruthlessly minimalistic and I really would prefer a larger keyboard with more keys, so I don't have to remember lots of meta-key combination short-cuts. I don't think I've memorised all the keyboard short cuts in a given piece of software in a decade... I just don't really use one particular thing enough to make it worthwhile. That keyboard with the active LED keycaps came out in what... 2006? I expected a regular keyboard with small set of active keycaps for macro keys would have existed by now. Come to think of it, I never used an Apple laptop with that active TouchBar thing either but that doesn't seem to have achieved enduring popularity. but I guess there's no real market for that either.

daveleebbc 6y ago
Sounds like you're just after a 80% keyboard or bigger, no? Plenty out there with all benefits of going premium/mechanical. Search for "TKL mechanical keyboard" and you'll maybe find what you're looking for. It's everything except the number pad.
dgregd 6y ago
You can have two keyboards. A first ergonomic split keyboard for the alpha keys. A second keyboard _only_ for function keys (placed between the split keyboard), an ortholinear planck keyboard with QMK firmware would be ideal. With QMK you can program a single key to send a complex combination like Alt+Shift+F10 (the Run... action in IntelliJ), you get the idea. Moreover you can make [1] the same key to do the same action in different OSes and programs. No need to remember different shortcuts how to switch tabs in a browser and in a text editor. [1] https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/users/miles2go/babblePaste.md https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/users/miles2...
- Quequau 6y ago
  I have sorta tried this. Razer makes a macro keypad which they call "orbweaver" and it also has a nifty thumb switch which I suppose they intended to be used for the wasd movement in games. Unfortunately, it's designed to be used with the left hand and I mouse with my left hand. I would dearly love a macro keypad exactly like an orbweaver but which was designed for use with the right hand. So I also now own an unbranded "ambidextrous" macro keypad. Besides the fact that it is great example of how ostensibly ambidextrous devices being really not that great for left handed people, I mostly used it for gaming but as I am not much of a gamer it doesn't get used often. I also migrated from a Mac desktop to Linux. I had a very nice application for macros on MacOS called ControllerMate but I've yet to find anything remotely similar for Linux.

woile 6y ago

This is great, I hope more companies were like system76. It's seems to me they are starting to produce their own hardware, but into the open. If I'm allowed to dream, they could be an open Mac some day. We sell you this optimized hardware and software, but you own it, do whatever you want.

eeZah7Ux 6y ago

The key placement is not ergonomic. Why not using an ortholinear layout?

andrewshadura 6y ago

The important question is: does it come with an ISO layout?

vman81 6y ago
Seems like they placed the controller right under where the left shift button is on ISO layout, so no, not without some significant redesign.

sneak 6y ago

What security features are in place to prevent unauthorized replacement of firmware by someone other than the keyboard owner? Seems to me something like this you'd want to be able to blow a pubkey into once when you buy it, and have it never accept unsigned firmware or new keys.

slazaro 6y ago

Every time I read about people's obsessions with keyboards I feel like an outsider. Am I weird? I've been using the same Logitech K120 that costs around 10€/$10, my muscle memory is important. The keys are in the usual places instead of multi-function keys, arrow keys are separated, it has a numpad... I'd like to have dedicated media keys, but that's the only thing I'd change. I keep buying it and have spare ones just in case.

rkangel 6y ago
I do know what you mean - there's a standard keyboard layout, it works well, there are plenty of keyboards using it. But then, I do care about the action of my keys - it's a small detail but I spend all day in front of a keyboard - and so I have a >£100 Das Keyboard. It's all a question of degrees. Maybe also there's a component of 'expression of self'. We are individuals with individual personalities. As coders our keyboard is important so it's a more productive medium than most to express our individual tastes.
ethanbond 6y ago
The way I view it is muscle memory is important because you use the tool so frequently. For the same reason, continuous minor improvements can add up quickly. People definitely go overboard but I think it’s worth it to experiment a little bit and see if you can gradually optimize some things you do a lot. I’m a big fan of the Ergodox keyboards and having a decent number of layers. For example, holding W turns my right hand into a window manager. Holding F turns my right hand into an app switch (H = Chrome, J = IntelliJ etc). All of this is on/near the home row so it’s minimally straining. Learning curves on new keyboards are awful though!
zaat 6y ago
No you are not weird, you are the standard, and that's why you are likely to have no difficulties to get your favorite keyboard at comfortable price in the foreseeable future. The weird ones are us, the custom mechanical keyboard enthusiasts, and because we are niche and have particular needs we pay much more and have much more to discuss.
sergiosgc 6y ago

kohlerm 6y ago

what is odd is that the keyboard configurator https://github.com/pop-os/keyboard-configurator https://github.com/pop-os/keyboard-configurator references System76 laptops. Does that mean QMK will come to System76 laptops?

bluGill 6y ago
System 76 has for years been known to be working on making their own laptop designs. They are going slow to create a quality product that they don't lost money on. This looks like another of the baby steps needed along the way.

varispeed 6y ago

This is great but where do you buy keycaps? Do you know why you virtually cannot find any flat key caps anywhere? Even the Kailh launched their v2 low profile keycap, but good luck finding any keycaps. Sure you can attach regular caps with the cherry mount, but if you want to build a flat keyboard, it's just not possible :( Only way so far I found is to chase people who do DIY molds or pay $$$ for a custom run (which you'll end up with a bathtub of keycaps and an empty wallet). Why nobody is doing these?

selfhoster11 6y ago
AliExpress has a wide selection.
- varispeed 6y ago
  Do you have links? I have literally spent hours there and couldn't find any flat keycap except for older Kailh mount. There is nothing to match Kailh v2 / Cherry MX mount. Only found a company on Alibaba that could make me some, but I can't afford it. I considered 3d printing old Kailh to Cherry MX adapter, but that won't be pretty :(
sigprof 6y ago
A much worse problem with this keyboard is that you almost cannot buy even regular MX-compatible keycaps for it, because the system76 people chose a really nonstandard physical layout. 1.5U Caps Lock, 1.5U Delete in the function key row, 1.5U Backspace in the number row, 1U backslash in the QWERTY row, 1.5U Enter in the ASDF row — these keycaps don't exist in most sets, except in some “40%” or ”ergo” addon kits (and even there you may not get the exact legend match for some of them, although for Caps Lock that may be a feature). 1.5U Shift is also really rare. So if you don't like the stock keycaps (which have the uniform XDA profile, and some people just don't like it), replacing them would be hard and/or expensive.

emptysongglass 6y ago

Where is it launched? There's no blog post and no product page.

surfsvammel 6y ago

Can someone tell me what this brings to the table? Isn’t there already a gazillion keyboards like this and already open source stuff if anyone want to build a keyboard like this?

bluGill 6y ago
Made in the USA, which means no questionable labor practices compared to China. This might or might not matter to you. It is also another step in System 76s long run to produce their own laptop in house. Today they just put their label on an off the shelf laptop (the advantage of buying from them is they are a large enough customer that they can demand linux compatible parts, while if you buy the same laptop you might discovered they substituted some incompatible part for something). However making their own laptops from scratch gives them flexibility to make them with the specs linux users say they want. (it remains to be seen if linux users will actually buy what they say they want)

rbanffy 6y ago

I'm feeling a bit old now with my unconfigurable non-RGB 122 key Unicomp Model-M. It's not compact, however.

BeniBoy 6y ago

I am the only one that is very ill-at-ease with that PCB [1]? The routing seems.. off? No straight trace, irregular component placement. Its the kind of work where seemingly "superficial" concern like that are in fact quite usefull, a clean PCB makes it easier to find issues and do repairs. [1]:https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/launch-pcb.png https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/launch-pc...

HarryBeadle 6y ago
Yeah, this PCB is... horrible.
RL_Quine 6y ago
Looks like it was made with TopoR autorouter. https://www.eremex.com/products/topor/ https://www.eremex.com/products/topor/
myself248 6y ago
Looks beautiful to me. Rectilinear tracks were an artifact of early layout software; there's no electrical need for them. I find it visually easier to trace tracks that aren't perfectly parallel, too. This is splendid in that regard, pairs are obviously pairs, but their spacing to other pairs is variable (which also suggests slow transitions in impedance rather than step-changes; another benefit). If anything, this looks like it moves a lot of components out into their own space, where they won't be shadowed by others in case of rework. Looks great to me.

eqvinox 6y ago

Why are we still making keyboards with a "Caps Lock" key on them in 2021? It's actively harmful on a functional level. And when you strip the function, the large key doesn't make sense anymore. I'd rather have 2 regular-size blank keys in its place (& if you really need Caps Lock you can map it to one of them.) (My Caps Lock is remapped to be a Compose key, but I'd rather have 2 keys there that I can remap. The space is there and it's nicely reachable.)

1MachineElf 6y ago

I rock a custom QMK keymap that only needs 34 keys [0], so I was expecting not to be impressed by this board when I saw the prototype [1], but highlights on this repo look quite good actually. Here's the ones that stand out to me: - detachable lift bar - swappable switches - integrated dock - per-key RGB - QMK - open source design I'm also a fan of two choices made with the layout. First, the split spacebars - it's better to give each thumb it's own job. Second, the minimization of modifier keys requiring stabilizers, because smooth consistent stabilizers are hard to get right. [0] https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/_sb4dv_refactor/keyboards/planck/keymaps/sb4dv https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/_sb4dv_refa... [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2020/03/18/linux-pc-company-system76-is-pulling-an-apple-and-designing-its-own-keyboard/?sh=17bb5b669c0c https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2020/03/18/linux...

notorandit 6y ago

Neat idea. Having an USB hub into the keybaord makes things easier on crowded desks. I know there have already been a few in the market, but this one looks gorgeous!

vermaden 6y ago

I am currently compatible with two kinds of keyboards. - ThinkPad 7-row laptop ANSI keyboard (like in T420) - 87 keys ANSI keyboard (does not have to be mechanical) [1] All other keyboard layouts literally does not exist for me - not matter how 'hackable' or 'open source' or configurable they are ... [1] https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/images/products/large_914_es87_front1000.png https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/images/products/large_9...

Liskni_si 6y ago
Just wanted to say that you're not alone. I'm used to the ISO layout, but that's a minor difference. I'm really glad they did the ThinkPad 25, and I really don't know what I'm going to do when that thing becomes too old to be usable. :-(
- vermaden 6y ago
  I wonder when ThinkPad 25 will start to show on EBAY or other places in normal prices ... currently its almost the same as for new one ...
  - Liskni_si 6y ago
    I sincerely hope I won't have to find out the answer to that. :-) Anyway, for anyone thinking of getting one, it's worth checking out this as well: https://www.xyte.ch/shop/t25-frankenpad-kit/ https://www.xyte.ch/shop/t25-frankenpad-kit/ and https://www.xyte.ch/thinkpads/t25-frankenpad/ https://www.xyte.ch/thinkpads/t25-frankenpad/
    - vermaden 6y ago
      Thank You for showing me these ... maybe I will be forced to get FrankenPad instead :) Cheers.

adolph 6y ago

So many words about the keyboard but nothing about the microcontroller. I wonder what they will use?

swalsh 6y ago
You can see it in the source: https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/launch-bom.csv https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/launch-bo... I think it is a ATmega32U4-MU

zingplex 6y ago

I wonder how the latency is on this. https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/ https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/

jakearmitage 6y ago

To the keyboard enthusiasts lurking here: what do I buy in order to get less latency? I already dropped X in order to get less software in my way, but I also want to get hardware out of my way.

thayne 6y ago

No tenkey sadly. I know a lot of keyboard enthusiasts don't like tenkeys, but I would have a hard time giving that up. Although, it would be nice to have the tenkey on the left so I don't have to move my hand over it to get to the mouse.

phowat 6y ago
I have a separate tenkey placed on the left side of my keyboard. Works pretty well for me.

currymj 6y ago

are there pictures of the finished product from the outside? how long until I can buy this?

nethmo09 6y ago

Hello

samtuke 6y ago

Sooner or later bigger brands will inevitably take the existing qmk ecosystem mainstream. Enjoy being a member of a niche while it lasts. (Lily58 user here).