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Samsung Foundry: New $17B Fab in the USA by Late 2023
- gautamcgoel 6y agoReally happy to see this. It's really frightening how dependent we are on other countries to manufacture our chips. I hope that more American chip companies choose to build fabs here as well, though I recognize how expensive that would be... Also... is every single tech company investing heavily in Austin? It sure feels like it!
- sithadmin 6y agoFrankly, I'm surprised that the Austin region's notable decline in quality of life hasn't already begun to act as a feedback mechanism limiting investment and population growth. Austin was plagued by decades of nimbyism and poor urban planning that prevented sufficient infrastructure development before it was a tech hotspot. ~10 years ago, things like traffic and public transport had already become borderline unbearable relative to comparable cities. It has only become much, much worse in recent years. I imagine that it might still seem livable to tech folks arriving from west/east coast megacities, but to us locals...not so much. Nearby San Antonio has done a much, much better job in terms of infrastructure development, but of course nobody wants to set up shop there because it doesn't have the (fading, imo) cultural cachet that Austin has.
- throwaway0a5e 6y agoDecline is relative. Despite being a crappy deal Austin is still a better deal than the options where a lot of the new people are coming from.
- medium_burrito 6y agoYeah, comparing with San Francisco/CA (massive income tax, possible wealth tax, absurd real estate, dysfunctional schools, etc) and Seattle (merely very expensive real estate, insane city council, famously unfriendly people, depressing weather, and possibly way more taxes and soon as our legislature can figure out how to get around them being unconstitutional)... Austin is definitely still a good deal. Sure, the weather isn't as good as California (but better than southern Nevada), and the scenery isn't as pretty or geographically interesting as the Pacific Northwest (but better than Oklahoma), but there are jobs, a good university and Texas doesn't appear to have lobotomy patients as local government.
- jedberg 6y agoThe main problem with Austin is that it's in Texas. Which means you're still subject to Texas laws and Texas schoolbooks. Some of those schoolbooks still teach that, "slaves were treated well because they were expensive property". Which makes me think, maybe there is a business opportunity to open a private school that uses California or Massachusetts/New York text books.
- whycombagator 6y agoIs that particularly common/exist at all in good Austin area schools? Or are you just generalising based on some Texas schools (genuinely curious as I have no idea myself)
- borramakot 6y agoMy understanding is that the Texas state requirements used to be borderline insane, but that they have improved over time. Skimming http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/rules/tac/chapter113/index.html http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/rules/tac/chapter113/index.htm... , I actually found much less objectionable than I expected to.
- mensetmanusman 6y agoThis is a meme that may require updating
- jedberg 6y agoPossibly, I haven't looked in a few years.
- usefulcat 6y agoIn general I don't disagree about bass-ackwards public school curriculums in TX. However, for those who are willing and able to pay for private school, that's not really an issue in Austin, especially considering how liberal it is compared to literally any other city in Texas.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- cjtoth 6y ago> nobody wants to set up shop there because it doesn't have the (fading, imo) cultural cachet that Austin has .. and has a public ivy college, the Texas legislature, and decades of semiconductors in the area. There's still NIMBY & traffic in the city, but to sum Austin up as simply a cultural hub feels dishonest
- mech422 6y agoI'd say Phoenix gives it a good run for its money :-)
- tick_tock_tick 6y agoAustin is the "new" SF and it's happening on a shorter timescale which is probably going to create an even more dysfunctional local political system. I know so many friends and colleagues that have moved to Austin from SF over the years to escape the issues they have with SF (mostly around trying to raise a family, poor schools, high coast of homes with any real space, etc) but it seems like Austin might just slingshot past SF in terms of issues.
- DebtDeflation 6y agoThere's always Denver and RTP.
- breischl 6y agoShhhhh, no there's not. These are not the metro areas you're looking for. Nothing to see here. Move along.
- oblio 6y agoRTP?
- pchristensen 6y agoResearch Triangle Park, NC
- MengerSponge 6y agoI absolutely love the Triangle, but public transit there is a joke. My favorite tinfoil hat conspiracy theory is that Duke Parking killed the light rail system.
- gautamcgoel 6y agoCan you comment a bit on why you love the triangle?
- jdhn 6y agoAs a Michigander, I find it funny to see people argue over growing cities and whether their cultural cachet is growing or fading. People here would kill to have the problems that Austin has.
- sithadmin 6y agoHaving just lived there for a couple years, I would argue that Ann Arbor has all the same issues as Austin: Strong nimbyism; general under-development of public infrastructure; a university that keeps the local government on a leash; absurd housing prices subsidized by student loans and tech workers; trademark 'hippie'/counterculture mentality that's increasingly marginalized; increasing presence of cookie-cutter chain establishments...
- whycombagator 6y agoBut does Ann Arbor have a massive influx of homeless?
- jacquesm 6y agoWho is we?
- u678u 6y agoWhy Austin? I thought you needed a lot of water for fabs.
- eutropia 6y agoI'm no expert, but my understanding is that Fabs like stable weather patterns and climates so they can more easily regulate the cleanrooms. Knowing nothing about Austin's climate, of course, I'm assuming that it's reliably hot and dry?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- pradn 6y agoThere's a joke about how quickly Austin's weather can change. It's not unheard of to see 30 degree swings over the course of a few hours. Austin has no protection from polar winds coming down from the north, nor is it near water, which has a moderating effect on climate. So it does have erratic weather. It's possible to see an inch of snow every other year, and yet, in the summers, it's likely to see 100+ degree (F) weather for two months straight. It's more likely how Austin is still attractive to high-tech personnel - a good public university nearby, a reputation for being a lively city, somewhat reasonable real estate prices (relative to the Bay, but still 2X what they were 10 years ago), and excellent schools if you're in the right area, a decent number of tech options to jump to if you want to switch, a spritely startup scene, enough outdoorsy things to do, etc etc.
- Turing_Machine 6y agoTexas is quite large... you're probably thinking of West Texas (as shown in innumerable western movies). That is indeed very dry. East Texas, particularly south-eastern Texas (near the Gulf) is very humid and can experience torrential rainfall. It's more like Louisiana than El Paso, climate-wise. Austin is sort of in the transitional zone between the two. By comparison with California, Austin gets an average of 34.32 inches (872 mm) of rain per year. San Jose gets 15.82 inches (402 mm). San Francisco proper gets 23.65 inches (601 mm). Austin is considerably more water-rich than the Bay Area.
- tgtweak 6y agoFinally - this is great news - I hope they put a lot of design staff here too, not just fab workers.
- throwaway120575 6y agoThey layed off a lot of their Austin-based Exynos CPU design staff two years ago, save for those working on the AMD/Samsung GPU partnership work - still, will be interesting to see how/if Exynos comes back, know they are aggressively hiring for GPU work.
- mchusma 6y agoIts very important for the US strategically to build out its foundry capabilities, so this plus the TSMC plant are big steps forward there.
- stjohnswarts 6y agodid the TSMC project get mothballed as a boondoggle for Wisconsin?
- dodobirdlord 6y agoYou’re thinking of a Foxconn project.
- kansface 6y agoI know SV wasn't in the running, but I can't imagine the Bay Area or California even addressing the permits by 2023... On another note, does anyone know if the supply chain/parts/materials/machinery can be sourced from outside of Chinese suppliers?
- totalZero 6y ago> does anyone know if the supply chain/parts/materials/machinery can be sourced from outside of Chinese suppliers? I don't believe there's a single part of the semiconductor supply chain that is exclusively available from China.
- reaperducer 6y agoI don't believe there's a single part of the semiconductor supply chain that is exclusively available from China. I agree with you. But the parent comment reminds me of when Apple started making computers in Austin and HN was full of people saying, "No, you can't build computers in America because America doesn't have any screws, and can't possibly figure out how to make its own!" Time and money solve all problems. Even supply chains.
- adventured 6y agoThe nice thing about China at its present stage of development is that everything made in China will perpetually get more expensive to make there and that will provide an ongoing advantage gain to every other location around the world that has until recently been at a steep cost disadvantage to China. Five to seven years ago it was already nearing cost-even to begin making things in the US again vs keeping that manufacturing in China, that will continue to tilt in the favor of the US by the year.
- baybal2 6y agoI doubt If it was only cost... Cost of manufacturing labour is already lower in most of US territorially than in China, and is dramatically lower in other poorer countries. The saying is that only $2 of iPhone is manual labour.
- nexthash 6y agoThis is awesome! The US needs domestic chip manufacturing, in order to be able to effectively compete, take business from, and vanquish China on all fronts. This includes AI, automobiles, the cloud, etc. The coming technology arms race is looking to be like a second Cold War, so we need to remember the lessons of the first (like containment) and apply them again.
- malux85 6y agoYes! Agree! I was happy to read this, too much reliance on TSMC
- TACIXAT 6y agoTSMC is also building a fab in the US. [1] 1. https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/15/tech/tsmc-arizona-chip-factory-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/15/tech/tsmc-arizona-chip-factor...
- waynecochran 6y agoThey already have fabs in the US. e.g. https://www.wafertech.com https://www.wafertech.com
- gruez 6y ago>This is awesome! The US needs domestic chip manufacturing, in order to be able to effectively compete, take business from, and vanquish China on all fronts. Have you forgotten all the intel/GF fabs? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_sites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_si... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlobalFoundries#Fabrication_facilities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlobalFoundries#Fabrication_fa...
- natch 6y agofrom TFA: >... “leading edge” ... Does Intel have some leading edge fabs? I read they have some coming in the future, but I think the point is it’s good to have more!
- dirtyid 6y agoAssuming proposed US semi fund will be chipping in for Samsung asking 1B in tax subsidies like TSMC.
- alexfromapex 6y agoThis will be good for the US chip supply chain, hopefully more chip makers follow suit
- dmix 6y agoOf course it's in Texas, not in SV. And TSMC going to Arizona.
- baybal2 6y ago> New $17B Fab in the USA by Late 2023 Impossible. Leads times on fab hardware are on all time high. Not to say that construction, and setup itself would be extremely challenging in such timeframe. And not saying that US has no supply chain locally for modern fabs. Intel famously flies a lot of its consumables from abroad. Samsung will have similarly to transport its consumables by air if they go with this plan.
- Beached 6y agodoesn't samsung have the capability to create its own fab hardware? if they are the supplier to themselves, wouldn't it be reasonable that they can prioritize delivering to themsleves
- kuschku 6y agoASML is the only supplier for EUV machines. Samsung can’t just create those easily themselves (or they would).
- Robotbeat 6y agoIs there any reason they couldn’t just start with multipatterning 193nm immersion? Maybe even ship that equipment out from a facility being upgraded. Also, ASML’s EUV light source division was fairly recently (2013) acquired from... California. Cymer, LLC.
- baybal2 6y agoRetooling of anymuch modern fabs is not economical. I don't see much retooling for anything below 45nm, if not 65nm.
- kokx 6y agoThe type of equipment ASML produces generally gets brought in at a specific time during the construction. They kinda build the cleanrooms around ASML's machines instead of bringing them in afterwards. Retooling for EUV (or any new generation of such equipment) is very hard. Most (if not all) foundries build new factories rather than retooling old ones.
- DC1350 6y agoIf you’re wondering like me why they would bother building in an expensive country with fewer qualified workers: “To build a leading-edge manufacturing facility, Samsung needs rather huge incentives from authorities. In particular, Samsung is requesting combined tax abatements of $805.5 million over 20 years”
- Flockster 6y agoSo 40 million per year? That does not sound like much..
- tyingq 6y ago"which essentially means that Samsung demands a 100% tax abatement from the county and 50% from the city." So the figure couldn't really be much larger.
- WillPostForFood 6y ago50% tax abatement for 5 years from the City (which has a ~50% higher tax rate than the county). I can think of a lot of ways it could be much larger. How about 100% abatement for 5 years? 50% abatement for 20 years? 100% abatement for 100 years?
- tyingq 6y ago"50% abatement for 20 years?" The article reads like that's what they are asking for from the City.
- WillPostForFood 6y agoThey are asking for 50% for 5 years for the city (which has a higher tax rate), and 100% for 20 years for the county (which is a smaller govt entity with a lower tax rate).
- adriancr 6y ago
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- somethoughts 6y agoInteresting if it is related to the possibility of manufacturing smart phones in Mexico [1]. In that sense if you were to take the output of an Austin based fab to supply a smart phone manufacturing supply chain in Mexico versus China, that would be a significant reduction in the length of a smart phone supply chain. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-china-factories-exclusive/exclusive-foxconn-other-asian-firms-consider-mexico-factories-as-china-risks-grow-idUSKBN25K17X https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-china-factories-ex...
- Robotbeat 6y agoChips are super value dense so the cost to fly them to the other side of the world is teeny tiny. Heck, the weight is so low you could just about afford to put the fab on the Moon (for chip logistics costs), if there was any real advantage to it.
- Qwertious 6y agoShipping costs from the moon to anywhere on earth is probably pretty minimal, since you could do it with a catapult and a shell+parachute so the goods survive re-entry. I doubt mass would make a big difference there so much as volume. Shipping costs from earth to the moon is $10 000/KG IIRC though, which, if we assume that a processor weighs 10 grams and costs $100 means the value of the stuff you're selling is $10 000/KG, i.e. you can't make a profit on them. But, suppose you ship 50% of the processor's materials up (with a convenient 100% efficiency of raw materials usage), and you mine the other 50% locally. Which, does the moon have silicon? Yes, it has plenty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_resources#Resources https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_resources#Resources I suspect lunar silicon would be more expensive to process than terran silicon, primarily due to the lacking skilled labour market in the area. It would likely need to be extensively automated, and likely re-invented from the ground up around the different atmosphere (which while not breathable, is possibly still not clean enough for a cleanroom), gravity, potential power sources (metallurgical coal is a no-go, mainly because there's no easy oxygen but also because coal is quite expensive there). While it's possible that some raw materials are cheaper on the moon than elsewhere (e.g. platinum from asteroids), I doubt this is the case due to the previously mentioned potential for cheap moon-to-earth shipping.
- m3kw9 6y agoWhen fab hardware depends on chips made by fabs.
- thedudeabides5 6y agoWoo, go team! Love that the US is bringing critical technology supply chains back onshore.
- barbacoa 6y agoI see a lot of people in this thread who don't really know much about Samsung's semiconductor presence in the USA. This expansion has been in the works for years. Samsung has a 100k wafer per month fab in austin texas. They are negotiating for tax abatements for expansion and using alternative sites as leverage. They are not building a new fab they are expanding their S2 fab in austin texas. There was a permit application that was released a few years back that shows the true scale of their expansion plans. https://www.swf.usace.army.mil/Portals/47/docs/regulatory/publicnotices/2014/PN_SWF-2014-00170.pdf https://www.swf.usace.army.mil/Portals/47/docs/regulatory/pu... If this goes through it could made Samsung's S2 fab larger than even TSMC's monster gigafabs.
- pwdisswordfish0 6y agoIf anyone has seen the Austin S2 campus before, you'd know that it has a massive blacktop to provide parking for its thousands of personnel. It would be nice if as part of the conditions for application approval, Samsung were asked to commit to erect awnings for solar collectors integrated into covered parking and strongly encouraged to invest in making solar more cost effective.
- barbacoa 6y agoAs a side note. SAS recently bought 100s of acres around their property probably to expand parking.
- jdkee 6y agoReporting on Foxconn’s Wisconsin “manufacturing plant” at the time. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/foxconned/535170/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/foxconn...
- MangoCoffee 6y agoregarding job: modern fab is pretty much automated. however, people who run the fab are mostly engineers. TSMC recruit from Taiwan's top University like National Taiwan University. you've to pay these professionals a high salary regardless where the fab is. (each new gen fab is more automated than pervious.) just check out the salary + bonus for TSMC engineers in Taiwan.
- throwaway2037 6y agoHi. I checked salary and bonus for TSMC engineers in Taiwan. Here is what I found: Engineer (1.3M NTD -> 46.5K USD): https://www.glassdoor.com.hk/Salary/TSMC-Engineer-Taiwan-Salaries-EJI_IE4130.0,4_KO5,13_IL.14,20_IN240.htm https://www.glassdoor.com.hk/Salary/TSMC-Engineer-Taiwan-Sal... Senior Engineer (2.0M NTD -> 71.5K USD): https://www.glassdoor.com.hk/Salary/TSMC-Senior-Engineer-Taiwan-Salaries-EJI_IE4130.0,4_KO5,20_IL.21,27_IN240.htm https://www.glassdoor.com.hk/Salary/TSMC-Senior-Engineer-Tai... Unless I misunderstood your comment, you seem to be hinting that these pay packages are very high. They don't look very competitive when compared to other high income countries. I cannot prove it, but my sense about TSMC is that their most senior researchers, sales people, and operations people are paid silly money. The remaining (below them) are paid good, but not insane, wages. That said, most of the TSMC R&D labs and fabs are in cheap locations, like Hsinchu and Tainan, so these pay packages are still quite good.
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- PhantomGremlin 6y agoSheesh. I can't believe all the comments here that say, more or less "It's an expansion of an existing fab". It's most emphatically NOT that! Directly from the article: The plans for the new fab are called Project Silicon Silver (PSS), and it will be located adjacent to S2. It will not use any of the existing buildings of S2, but will be a completely new fab constructed from the ground up. It will have its own operations support, central utility building, industrial waste treatment, air separation plans, storage for inert gases, and other constructions. The only currently-contemplated interconnections between the new facility and the surrounding existing property may be a pedestrian and/or material bridge or walkway constructed between the existing improvements on the site and the new construction That couldn't be more clear as far as I'm concerned!!!
- williesleg 6y agoThank you Biden!
- rmac 6y agoCan someone smarter than me explain why larger companies (e.g., samsung, amazon) can get 50-100% tax breaks from various governments, and we are all seemingly ok with that? What about mid-size businesses? Should they band together to come up with the same "we'll create X jobs in your town claim"? Whatever happened to taxing the rich?
- Traster 6y agoI'm not sure many people are particularly happy with it, but it's a fundamental problem. If you give different levels of government the ability to tax people, then private corporations are going to have the ability to shop around tax jurisdictions to get the best deal, and atleast some of those jurisdictions are going to include places that are deeply republican and believe it's good to have low tax revenue, and even better to attract businesses. So what do you do? Create federal laws to control state aid and watch as libertarians/states rights people spontaneously combust.
- rmac 6y agoYeah I'm not sure what a policy-solution would be here. I'm definitely for allowing states to do whatever they want. It's the great A/B test. Just seems like the smallest businesses and the largest businesses get the most deals and those in the middle get hosed. Maybe that's working as intended.
- minikites 6y agoThe reasoning, as I understand it: if we taxed rich people too much, it would discourage other people from wanting to be rich, which is bad for the economy.
- JohnJamesRambo 6y agoWow it would stun me if people were this stupid but I guess it is possible. “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.“ -disputed John Steinbeck quote