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I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer
- kioleanu 6y agoThat’s a very clickbaity title. I was reading the article and sharpening my pitchfork up until the middle when I had to stop and put it down (the metaphorical pitchfork)
- rkangel 6y agoYes, it isn't very clear about whether the demotion was chosen or not. "I followed my dreams to be demoted to software developer" or "I followed my dream of being demoted to..." would be much clearer.
- duckfruit 6y agoI don't know if I'd call it clickbait. Whimsically worded, sure, but the author did literally go from being a Director of design to an associate software developer so it doesn't seem inaccurate to call it a demotion.
- saghm 6y agoThis might be excessively nitpicky, but the use of the phrase "_got_ demoted" (emphasis mine) implies to me a lack of control over the situation. It's technically correct, but it sounds like it was a punishment rather than what it actually was (namely, a career choice).
- emptyfile 6y agoSame. English isn't my first language so I'm not sure, but the title doesn't' seem sincere when the subtitle reads "Kristina Lustig, formerly our Director of Design, explains why she took a new role as an associate software developer"
- bradlys 6y agoEnglish is my first language. I'm American on top of it. This is a clickbait title. It conveys an incorrect meaning. People can talk about formal definitions all they want - it doesn't matter. Language isn't always about formal definitions - it's more often about how people use it. In this case - the headline is being used to grab eyes, is clickbait, and is wrong about the contents of the article. Your new headline would be better but it wouldn't have attracted any views.
- cperciva 6y agoThis reminds me of a joke about a violist who finds a magic lamp and asks to become a better musician. Promotion depends on perspective.
- Gehinnn 6y agoDo you mean this joke? [1] Don't disrespect the violists! [1] (https://www.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/ab5oht/a_violists_3_wishes/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/ab5oht/a_violists_3_...)
- cperciva 6y agoYes, subject to minor variations. The version I heard had him going from the back of the section in a community (amateur) orchestra to playing in the Toronto Symphony to leading the viola section in the Berlin Philharmonic -- and making the same wish ("make me a better musician") each time.
- fossislife 6y agoThe website's title is okay "to get demoted", it is the Hacker News title that is clickbait: "and got demoted".
- delecti 6y agoIt seems clear to me from the title that the demotion was deliberate. The content of the article was more or less exactly what I expected from the title, which seems to contradict the notion that it's clickbait.
- jacobsenscott 6y agoFrom someone who's spent nearly 20 years trying to stay near the bottom of the org chart, welcome!
- progre 6y agoI've always fought to stay a developer as well. It seems that as soon as I know a codebase well enough to be really productive, there is a "team lead" or "scrum master" role waiting. Once or twice I've even fallen for it but the result have always been more meetings, less customer interaction, more responsibility and somehow less power over the product. Pay has stayed the same of course.
- bluefirebrand 6y agoDon't ever agree to move up unless you are paid more.
- falcor84 6y agoOr unless you're actually looking to get that kind of experience
- bluefirebrand 6y agoI guess I could amend it to "Never move up when someone else wants you to unless you get a pay bump." If you want to move up and someone else is iffy on it, sure, skip the raise to help convince them. It's a matter of who is prompting the move, and what extra responsibility is required and such. If your boss asks you to take on more responsibility, ask for more money. That's really all I'm saying.
- UnpossibleJim 6y agoI've always found it difficult to come up with OKRs (goals - insert company BS euphemism here) that were acceptable but didn't force me towards a management position. It is just assumed that the goal in any company that a person should want to herd cats as a living.
- jbay808 6y agoKind of frustrating to see this framed as a "demotion". But it's great to see someone starting over in a new career track that suits them better.
- dlkf 6y agoI interpreted it as tongue-in-cheek. On my reading, the point of the article is that titles and prestige are far less important than being excited about what you're working on. If having a more fulfilling job means a less fancy title (and you can afford the pay cut) you should go for it. Sometimes people working in tech lose sight of why they went into this field. The author's enthusiasm is a great reminder why. Fantastic article.
- tharkun__ 6y agoI would agree with it being tongue-in-cheek. The wording could be chosen to not include the negative connotations though. These two are quite different: I followed my dreams and got demoted to software developer I follow my dreams and got promoted from Development Team Team to Software Developer
- munchbunny 6y agoI think it’s just to make an attention grabbing title. After reading this, I’m just genuinely happy for the author. I think that not everyone is in a position to do that kind of thing, but for those who can, I wish we all had that kind of courage and the willingness to put in the extra work to make it happen. For context, my last job change was also a diagonal step down and an overall step up in happiness. Not as dramatic though. I also did it because I felt like I was innately more suited to a different role.
- cldellow 6y ago> demotion (n) - a reduction in rank or status But it is a demotion! I think perhaps we view that as a negative thing when it's done as a punishment, or due to factors outside one's control. But in this case, she chose it (indeed, worked for it!), so she must think it was worth it. Her rank is literally demoted. She went from being high on the job ladder ("Director") to low on the job ladder ("Associate"), reflecting the fact that she's still developing the capabilities needed to do her new discipline. I guess maybe if one viewed this as a commentary on management vs IC work, it could be seen negatively -- but I didn't personally interpret the framing that way. Ditto for status - she likely went from having lots of soft power due to her time and relationships in the design org, to essentially starting over in the development org. Are these bad things? I don't think so. Presumably she was pretty clear on the short-term negative impacts of the change, and still wanted it.
- kodah 6y agoAn inspirational story that anyone, at any level, can always reinvent themselves given time, patience, and a plan. That said, "demotion" doesn't seem like the right word. Yes, going from Director to general population is technically a step down, but more realistically this is a lateral move. In a lateral move sometimes you get to keep your pay but almost never your rank.
- charlesu 6y agoDoes it say she kept her old salary? The going rate for a design director is probably a lot higher than that of an entry-level software engineer.
- mooreds 6y agoCame here to ask this. It doesn't say, but I think that'd be a key part of the "frank discussions" she had with her manager.
- emmanueloga_ 6y agoPerhaps that's the explanation for the controversial "demoted" word ...
- kristinamay 6y agoHi! Blog post author here. I didn't keep my old salary, nope. I took a substantial pay cut in order to do this.
- kodah 6y agoAh, so not a lateral move. Demotion does make sense in that case, though, I wish that outcome would be different. It seems like whatever skills and experience you bring with you would still be relevant, even in an entirely different domain.
- kristinamay 6y ago
- spicymaki 6y agoI just get a feeling that no matter how privileged you are, how intelligent you are, how high or low a position you are in, or how much money you make there is going to be some random article on HN to make you feel insecure.
- gumby 6y agoWhat about it makes you insecure? It's about someone who changed jobs because they decided they'd prefer to do something else. It isn't one of those "in six weeks I turned my side gig into a Nobel-prize winning web site and now I'm a billionaire" clickbait articles.
- ysavir 6y agoProbably due to the very poor and misleading article title, which frames the situation as a "demotion", something that happens to us, not something that we decide to do. The article has a good message, but the title is absolute click-bait. Many people might come across the title, and although not interested in reading it, walk away with the idea that following dreams leads to negative consequences. I hope the author changes it.
- mywittyname 6y agoYeah, the title of the article is pretty poor. It kind of sounds like someone who was promoted from a developer to something else, rose to the level of their incompetence, then reversed the promotion to go back to doing what they enjoyed. This person was not a developer previously, so I don't understand how they were "demoted." Other than management > individual contributor. What really happened was they changed jobs to do something they found more fulfilling. Which is great, but if I decided to change careers to building furniture, I wouldn't say I "got demoted to making furniture."
- purple-again 6y agoThey were director of design! I am not part of that company so it’s possible that director is a joke there but in most companies that’s the highest level prior to the c suite/owners (public company/professional services firms). That would mean she likely had immense autonomy and a large group of direct reports whom themselves had teams of direct reports. Going from that to “just a coder” ie one team member of one team responsible for only their contributions to their current projects. In nearly every organization that would be a huge demotion WITH a huge pay cut. In this instance because coders are paid so much more than most other professions it’s possible it was a lateral move or even a pay raise! But no question as far as responsibility for the direction of the organization it’s a huge demotion.
- nix23 6y agoWhen you think Managers (Directors) are more worth then the peoples who actually create something. Maybe have a look at Gates and Musk who are actually engineers rather then Managers....or more correct Managing-Engineers. But congratulation for your "demotion".
- soperj 6y agoI looked at Gates' game DONKEY.BAS, you're right in that he did create something...
- mssundaram 6y agoWhat you're ignorant of is intangible value. Sure there are managers and C levels that don't, but I'd bet that most are successful at creating value that you're just quite not able to see.
- nix23 6y ago>but I'd bet that most are successful at creating value that you're just quite not able to see. I did not say they create nothing, i just said that they should not be held to a higher "rank" than people who actually create something real, with that said there should not be a feeling of "demotion" from director to developer...quite the opposite in fact. BTW: Look at your reaction, instantly calling me ignorant because i think managers are just gears in the system and NOT drivers.
- cambalache 6y agoHow convenient. A huge percentage of managers in large organizations are expert on talking the talk, read this: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-... Any big organization will optimize for people who can extract as much value from their peers/subordinates and present it as their own. By the way, this does not mean they are not smart or hard working, but you could say the same about any other worker.
- arcturus17 6y agoMost of the value that Gates created was as a pure manager. He was a programmer before, possibly amazing at it too, but I'd hardly say his role at Microsoft was that of an engineer-manager. He regularly attended engineering meetings throughout his tenure as CEO (he says so in that Netflix mini-series about him) but by far his largest drivers for creating value were how he envisioned software eating the world (esp. the enterprise), and how he executed a commercial strategy to perfection to build a monopoly around that vision. Not to downplay the difficulty of building operating systems at scale, or that Microsoft might have made some impressive innovations in the 80s and 90s, but they always had a reputation for their products being "OK" at best, so I'd argue their dominant position was acquired through wheelin' and dealin' more than anything else.
- leowoo91 6y agoAs someone trapped into the software, does anyone know how I can go out?
- giantg2 6y agoI'd say just tough it out with the goal to F.I.R.E.
- gryn 6y agonot all software developpers work in the US.
- gberger 6y agoSo?
- throwaway3699 6y agoIt's much less practical of a goal in some places. High taxes for example, make it harder to save as much.
- giantg2 6y agoImplying that FIRE participants are only in the US is just as wrong as assuming all developers are in the US.
- rantwasp 6y ago
- itsmemattchung 6y agoI wonder how many other of us have had "non conventional" careers, stepping down from (whatever) higher paying positions in order to work as developers. Similar to the author of the article, I stepped down from management, took a pay cut, in order to become a developer. Eventually, after many years, my pay caught up and the temporary sacrifice was totally worth it.
- the_only_law 6y agoI’ve been thinking about going the other way (developer->something else) and all I have to say is holy shit being in software is in many ways a godsend. When I look at other fields and the credentials required/pay it’s somewhat a marvel that some uneducated kid with barely no experience such as myself was able to get into what’s considered a high paying technical field.
- soneca 6y agoSimilar here. I took a 50% cut from a Director at an NGO to junior frontend developer (with a 8-month no earnings interval while I studied software development). Now, 4 years later, I am earning 6 times that pre-dev earnings.
- SMAAART 6y agoThat is one of the best articles I have read in a very long time.
- geophile 6y agoGood for you. I was in startups for 25 years, (except for a few years in an acquiring company), and I had this ongoing debate with myself and my bosses for many years: Should I stay on the technical side (developer, architect), or go into management? On one hand, I thought that I "should" go into management because ... that's what people do, right? On the other hand, I loathed management. Even as a team lead, meetings made me literally sick to my stomach, (well, once). I kept torturing myself with this decision over the years, until my boss cleared it up for me. He said that if I hated being a manager, that I would suck at it, and be constantly miserable. So don't do it. It was so obvious once he said it. So I didn't become a manager, and I never worried about it again.
- smileysteve 6y ago> On the other hand, I loathed management. Even as a team lead, meetings made me literally sick to my stomach, I don't know that you should use this criteria as the sole deal breaker. Managers should be shielding teams from unproductive meetings and pushing for productivity (action items) from the meetings that happen - holding their peers to a degree of standards. Now, if you hate 1:1, org planning, and successful meetings, that's another thing.
- geophile 6y agoEverything about it. Every moment spent organizing, planning, reviewing, coordinating, is just torture. If, at work, I am doing anything but working on code, or preparing to (researching, reading, etc.), I feel like I am wasting my time, and it is just draining. At the end of a work day, my mood is completely determined by how much time I spent on code.
- strgcmc 6y agoI'm always thrilled to hear stories from people who have or reach this level of self-awareness, about what determines their mood/satisfaction. It's so wonderfully freeing to know yourself to that level, and understand part of what makes you tick internally. I myself am a former-engineer and current-manager, and I also remember absolutely loathing meetings as a waste of time, explaining things to people who don't really care that much about what I have to say, and plus why should I contort myself to speak "their" language and why can't they be bothered to learn to speak "my" language as an engineer? But over time, I think I've come to develop a taste for, the style of communication that happens in most typical business meetings. If you think about coding and entering a "flow" state, to me the core of that flow is being able to clearly and concisely conceptualize the software abstractions you have in your head, mapping them effectively from business concepts or technical requirements and into code, and being able to just churn out a beautiful representation of all those things into something tangible (an application, a service, etc.). Believe it or not, in roundabout ways, meetings can achieve that kind of "flow" state as well, creating a shared understanding of a beautiful abstraction, and resulting in high-bandwidth exchange of ideas. Certainly it is much harder to achieve "flow" for meeting communication than for coding/engineering (IMHO at least) since it involves lots of other people with lots of different backgrounds and different levels of understanding, but I find that nonetheless it is something I can find enjoyment from the pursuit of that state. Not every meeting succeeds in reaching that "flow" state, but more and more I can perceive and introspect why/why-not it didn't, and come out with tangible lessons for myself for improving. So long as I have a flywheel for getting better, it doesn't feel so draining or so pointless anymore even when I "fail". And sometimes, I really do come out of the most productive meetings feeling very energized, and hearing from my peers how much clarity they gained or how much more confident they are about a decision that was previously questionable/uncertain, is truly a great feeling (at least as good for me, as producing a solid piece of beautiful code).
- JoeAltmaier 6y agoI am quite happy being a developer. In this the tail of my career I'm happy to work as a consultant with peers, getting contracts and billable hours for all of us. I never wanted management in a corporation. Used to be only half of America for instance worked in a big company. The rest of us worked in small business, or as individuals. That's changing I guess. I hope there continues to be room for those of us who prefer a life to a career.
- can16358p 6y ago"Demoted" from a common perspective, promoted from a true perspective: life isn't that long to do something that you don't love, or at least that you love less. No matter how much less (if it does) they get paid, congratulations on following your dreams.
- cccc4all 6y agoI wish her well in her endeavors. Her staying at her current company is a warning flag. It doesn't sound like she went through any other interview process at other companies, so she doesn't yet have full understanding of what's required to be in software engineering field. The most likely path is that she will be guided into some sort of Software Development Management role after couple of lackluster years as "software developer" role. Many, if not most, software engineers burn out after couple of years or get into comfort zone and stagnate or get moved into management roles. There's huge propaganda push to get certain groups into software engineering, women, minorities, etc. The central planners decided software engineering field had to change. The motivation is mostly financial, they need to increase number of available candidates to drive down salary increases in software engineering. The quality of candidates has suffered because of this push, men, women, etc. Most people are simply not interested in software engineering field. Some people find out too late, after spending too much money and time trying to pursue a career in software engineering.
- xivusr 6y agoI related to a lot of this and really appreciate the authenticity and how humble the author is. Good luck on this next chapter and congratulations on pursuing your dreams! Also: keep doing the side projects :-)
- _wldu 6y agoYou are never "just a whatever" and you should not think of yourself like that. You are a human and you have just as much value as any other. Your life experience and views create the diversity that makes us all strong.
- mettamage 6y agoI studied a bachelor CS / master CS, having worked for 2 years (odd jobs as a dev), and I have to struggle interview after interview by myself. I dream about getting this kind of mentorship from a such an amazing company. Yet, when I apply to Stackoverflow, I don't even get a chance to be interviewed. The mentorship that she received is so super lucky, I hope she realizes that. I'll bet you this: if I (or most CS master graduates from The Netherlands [1]) would receive a similar kind of treatment, then they'd nail that software developer position in terms of skill [2]. [1] I can't comment on other CS master programs, but I've followed lectures at: Utrecht, Amsterdam (both of them) and have seen what they're capable of at Delft. [2] I'm not making claims about culture or communication.
- consp 6y agoDon't get yourself too down about it compared to her. She moved internally, has a lengthy employment history and was backed by her manager, there was no loss to the company here as knowledge of previous projects would stay with them. There is hardly any way to compete against that from the outside.
- jimbokun 6y ago> The hardest part for me has been getting used to working on code that lots of other people had worked on. This is probably the single most significant differentiator between skills academic CS or programming courses and real world development.
- Falkon1313 6y agoThat and the related bits - hashing out nebulous requirements, agreeing on an approach, pinning down an estimate, coming to a consensus on what color to paint the bikeshed.
- fit2rule 6y ago.. writing the code .. testing the code .. writing docs that show others how to test the code .. distributing the code .. getting the users through a few upgrade/update release cycles .. refactoring to a new product .. maintaining all of this .. writing docs to help others maintain all of this ..
- austincheney 6y ago> Most importantly, I was right: I thought I’d love writing code professionally, and it turns out, I do! She must clearly not be writing JavaScript. I love writing JavaScript applications, but not professionally. It’s a matter of actually building a product versus spinning your wheels with hundreds of megabytes of dependencies and stupidity and circular processes.
- draw_down 6y agoI truly love HN's ability to shit on Javascript -- even when no one was talking about it at all! Hats off to ya.
- seankimdesign 6y agoI love this story. I can intensely relate as I too have made the pivot from being a UX professional to software engineering a few years back. Sure I hadn't achieved anything close to being the director of design for a known tech firm; My design career was just starting to flourish when I'd made the move. But so much of the sentiment regarding confidence and self-doubt were the exact emotions that I had experienced . It felt as if there was this huge gap in knowledge that I'd never be able to fill. It took a lot of effort from me to overcome that fear of inadequacy and make the jump, so I know it must've not been easy for the author either. It's also funny how the activities she chose to express her desire to code - tinkering with Arduino, participating in Ludum Dare - were the exact stuff I was doing too! Huge congrats to Kristina, and I hope her engineering career brings her as much joy and fulfillment as it has brought me.
- 100011_100001 6y agoI went from a Sr. Manager to Jr. Developer. The pay cut sucked. The first year working as a developer was rough. Everyone assumed that I knew a lot because of my age, but I was mostly a newbie. Fast forward 8 years later, I am a Lead Developer and making double what I made as a Sr. Manager. I am still learning, I am still behind compared to my peers. Technology feels like it's moving too fast. But in the end, the best part is to open my IDE and write code. It makes me the happiest.
- ketzo 6y agoI think any developer who feels like they have a 100% handle on all the new tech in their field... isn't paying enough attention :D feeling like there's more to learn is a way of life! Congrats on the successful career shift.
- notyourday 6y agoTwo questions: 1. Did the new role come with a pay cut? If no, it was not a demotion. 2. Is someone else pulling enough money where 1. did not matter? If so, then it is a hobby move.
- jansan 6y agoShe may have felt superior to software developers, so in her eyes it may look like a demotion. I run a small company which does software development and graphic design. i could describe myself as a CEO, entrepreneur, software engineer or graphic designer. But whenever someone asks me what my job is, I say "programmer". That's how I identify and IMHO it is a very challenging and honorable job.
- jmd509 6y agoAs a non-technical professional (yes we also peruse HN), I can't stress enough the value of having career conversations early and often with your manager. It's not just HR mumbo-jumbo. OP's story is just one example of a potential benefit. Most organizations actively try to support internal mobility (admittedly with varied success). Companies invest resources in hiring, training, and keeping you. Your manager, as a representative of the company, is wise to amicably transfer an unsatisfied employee to another part of the organization. And as a human being, they probably want to see you engaged and happy at work, even if it means losing you to another team. Plus in this example, OP was a high performer and had already shown initiative, putting in legwork to upskill themselves for the new role. Demonstrated value/performance and initiative are always helpful when asking for something of your employer. Don't be dissuaded by cynical examples to the contrary - those who told their manager about other interests and suddenly and inexplicably got fired. Remember there are two sides to every story - for example, maybe they were underperforming and disengaged for a long time, and then randomly raised the question after their manager reached a breaking point? They won't share that in their post. Also remember availability bias - just because we see these people complaining on forums or "know a guy" doesn't mean it happens frequently enough in real life to be seriously concerned. In the end you'd be surprised what you accomplish by simply talking to your manager early and often, having general conversations about potential aspirations and leaving the door open for them to say "How can I help?"
- epsilonclose 6y agoI don't know. For a sufficiently large change, it isn't necessarily in your company's best interest to try to keep you happy. You have banked knowledge and skill in X. You have limited skill in Y but wish to learn. The loss of some fraction of X is always going to hurt the company more than your gain in Y will benefit them, so they are going to try to keep you doing as much of X as possible for as long as possible. If they were to let you switch to Y, they'd have to have already needed a junior person there, and they will now have to replace the person doing X. Maybe this is a small vs large company thing, but I think it is entirely possible to "typecast" yourself into a corner such that the best thing you can do if you want to pivot is jump ship.
- xutopia 6y agoI find too many workplaces see the only way for a developer to move ahead in their career is to become a manager. I'm glad I don't work at such a place. At my workplace those who really thrive on technical stuff can follow a path to technical glory and those who love the intricacies of managing people get to do just that. We end up with more competent managers and developers in the end.
- vyndion_1427 6y agoShaking off your former titles and successfully career changing is really hard to do, as I’m learning the hard way. Grats to her on her new opportunity!
- CivBase 6y agoCan someone explain to me why titles like Engineer, Architect, and Developer are perceived as having less value than titles like Manager or Director? Managing products requires a completely different skill set from managing people. Both skills are vital to the success of a business and neither are trivially developed or easily replaced. If you ask me, the "demotion" in this article is not going from Director of Design to Software Developer. The demotion is going from a senior level position to an entry level one. But that's not how it's presented.
- 100011_100001 6y agoIn a lot of companies Managers and Directors make more money than being a Developer. On top of that the perception of status is higher from the outside if you are a Director vs a Developer. Smart tech companies have two paths, the management and the engineer path. Where they both have certain expectations but there is no pay ceiling. Bad tech companies tend to disregard this and there is a point that you can no longer get a raise unless you "move up" and become a manager.
- jedberg 6y ago> Smart tech companies have two paths, the management and the engineer path. In my 25 working years, I've learned this is mostly lip service. Yes, there are ICs who make as much as a VP. But look at Amazon. There are maybe ten people in that company that are IC level making what VPs make. And thousands of VPs. To be a VP, you have to be a really great manager. To get VP pay as an IC (ie. Distinguished Engineer), you have to be the best in the world in your field. So yeah, it's possible to have equivalent tracks, but the reality is that you will never make as much as an IC than if you switch to the management track.
- 100011_100001 6y agoAbsolutely true. Even non FAANG companies have that problem. For example in IBM you have to start producing new patents etc. In short the qualifications a VP vs an IC (as you called them) are in different stratospheres.
- verst 6y agoI'm literally about to do this. Switching from (Senior) Developer Advocate to Software Engineer (2) at Microsoft. Both jobs are on the same ladder / pay scale and in the same engineering org. I was promoted just last September and am effectively undoing my promotion. I had never worked as a SWE/SDE 100% of my time. I have a Math & CS degree and have built lots of random integrations, apps, and created technical architecture designs / product requirements. I realized I enjoy projects where I get to code or dive deep into technology best. I also want a role that is easier understood by industry across companies. The hope is that I can perform well to quickly get promoted back to my current job level (and compensation). The sacrifice is worth it to me.
- hbarka 6y agoNice
- ignoramous 6y agoReminds me of a "self-demotion" that worked out well: That of a certain Allan Vermeulen [0] who, by some accounts, was the chief architect of Amazon S3 [1], and by all accounts, an engineer extraordinaire. Vermeulen managed the Platform Services group when he joined [2], and later moved to a CTO role with focus on the then very nascent Web Services initiative [3], but eventually "demoted" himself to an "AWS Engineer" role to actually build key technological pieces that would underpin a lot of distributed systems at AWS [4]. Not bad at all. [0] https://books.google.co.in/books?id=yG3PAK6ZOucC&pg=PT229 https://books.google.co.in/books?id=yG3PAK6ZOucC&pg=PT229 [1] https://perspectives.mvdirona.com/2016/03/a-decade-of-innovation/ https://perspectives.mvdirona.com/2016/03/a-decade-of-innova... [2] https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=20040418&slug=geniusal18 https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=20040418&slug... [3] https://web.archive.org/web/20091226191003/paulwallis.ulitzer.com/node/39815 https://web.archive.org/web/20091226191003/paulwallis.ulitze... [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVvFVwyElLY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVvFVwyElLY
- torgard 6y agoThanks for sharing! I had not heard about him.
- rebyn 6y agoBeing a Distinguished Engineer is the highest there is for an engineer. He moved away from management and max'd out on the engineering track. https://college.lclark.edu/programs/entrepreneurship/fireside-chats/allan-vermeulen/ https://college.lclark.edu/programs/entrepreneurship/firesid...
- ignoramous 6y agoYeah, and Amazon HR might be forced to create newer, higher rungs just for alv (and quite possibly a few others like James Hamilton and Eric Brandwine). The "self-demotion" is real though, especially since, according to the (much disputed) book, The Everything Store, alv declined Bezos' offer to lead AWS, and the job then of course was Andy Jassy's (who took over from Colin Bryar) which laid the foundation for him to eventually become the CEO-elect of one of the most enduring companies of all time. I mean, in an alternate universe, alv is the CEO-elect :) Imagine the scenes!
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Geminidog 6y agoIf she didn't get a pay downgrade to associate swe then she is not even remotely close to starting from scratch. The company is basically letting her learn a new field on their dime, which is fine, but this is basically a story less about her earning her skills as a software engineer and more about the charity of her Boss and the company allowing her to learn these skills. This is not an economic move for the company. They are better off hiring a new CS grad, and if her pay wasn't reduced they are better off with a senior engineer. An action like this is literally an act of charity. People go through a lot to learn dev skills and she is being handed these skills as a gift. What I'm going to say next might come off as a bit sexist and keep in mind it's just representative of my own anecdotal experiences and others may have completely different experiences. I have found that when a female developer isn't doing so well on her job she's given a lot more leeway then a male developer. Additionally a lot more people (men) will go out of their way to help her because of her sex. Part of the fact she was even offered a role as a developer very likely has to do with some aspect of this. Frankly, I can't see this same situation happening as often for a dude. Men are subconsciously judged more for their competency while women (especially attractive women) trigger good Samaritan vibes, making competency take a back seat while people do everything they can to foster a community of help and assistance. Nothing wrong with taking advantage of it, but if I was a janitor in an engineering company and I asked the director for a starring role as a SWE they'd look at me funny. But if I was a really hot female... I can see the possibility of a director trying to establish himself into a mentor-ship role. I'm not implying men do this consciously. I think most men and people in general like to think of themselves as non-biased so most of this happens as subconscious actions.
- carlisle_ 6y agoI find these anecdotes to be completely untrue. Women are often assumed to be less competent, and are often passed over during hiring for men of equal competence. I've seen some incredibly useless dudes sit back and rest and vest for months and months without any repercussions. I don't have an equivalent story for women because I work with significantly less women. Let's try focusing on the apparent and obvious biases against women before we start keeping score on how men are so disenfranchised.
- adamredwoods 6y agoMy story has some similarities to Kristina's, but I didn't I get to choose when I switched. I went from being a "Flash" designer/developer, which I loved, to being unemployed and drowning in debt, to physically moving to another city, to going to a bootcamp. Fortunately I am stable now. The hard part is how 15 years of prior experience is mostly wiped out. It makes for a colorful background, but largely ignored. Recruiters called it "soft skills" when you have corporate experience, but it's not directly applicable to software development.
- lasagnaphil 6y agoAh, nice to see the mention on Lua-based game libraries (Corona2D (now Solar2D), and Love2D), which have also fueled my programming interests in the teens.
- mdbauman 6y agoI came here to say this as well. I'm glad these libraries (and Ludum Dare!) are encouraging people to explore programming.
- nomdep 6y agoA terrible career move. As other commenter said, if there wasn't a pay cut, is because of the company charity. Now she has to be not only a good coder but a great one, (and in a tech stack she didn't had used already). Otherwise, a year from now, they might not feel so charitable, and the story will be "from director of design to fired IC". A friend of mine made a similar mistake once, believing the BS of the "parallel management and engineering tracks".
- SamBam 6y agoI'll add my reply that I was typing out for the other post before it was deleted. To make your assertion requires far too many assumptions for you to know whether this was an act of "charity" or not. People are with more than their paper skill sets. If this person had been working at Stack Overflow for years, then she probably knows far more about the company itself than a new CS grad. That can be a huge asset. Likewise, her experience of being a manager of the Production Design team, and the Director of Design, can be great experiences to add depth to the development team. I am a senior software engineer. I am far from the best programmer on my team. A new CS grad could probably out-whiteboard any CS problem thrown at me. But my knowledge of 12 years of the company's development history, my gut-understanding of what kinds of decisions are good for the company, my ability to communicate well with product owners and elicit the right kinds of information and foresee design problems before they happen all contribute to me being an invaluable member of the team.
- josephorjoe 6y agoBest career move I ever made was to quit a managerial job and learn coding. Three years later I was making more $$ as an IC with none of the stress and nuisance of management. Five years later I was making 2x my old salary and significantly happier w my day to day work. To each their own...
- sethammons 6y agoThat's interesting. I'm facing the choice of going to management for a pay cut in the short term but with longer term potential upside.
- danaliv 6y agoI went from being a software engineer to a flight instructor (83% pay cut - gulp), and that eventually landed me a gig as a spacecraft operator. Here’s to risky career moves!
- yashap 6y agoI took a sort-of similar route. I was a Senior Data Analyst who loved to code, and managed to transition to Junior Software Developer. I’ve stayed hungry and constantly improved as a dev, and over the years have incrementally moved up to my current role, Staff Software Developer. Stick with it Kristina! One of the great things about programming is that bright, passionate, hard working people can be highly successful despite coming from non-traditional backgrounds.
- hiimtroymclure 6y agoI was a senior product manager and made the transition to frontend dev. I've never been happier!
- mcherm 6y agoFrom a [flagged][dead] comment: > This is not an economic move for the company. I'm not at all sure I agree with you on this. I've worked for quite a few years as a software engineer in banking. At one of the companies where I worked, we had an intentional policy of taking people from non-technical roles (such as "telephone support") and giving them opportunities to move within the company to technical roles... sometimes QA, sometimes development roles. It is certainly true that these people were less productive for the first year or so than if we had hired a new graduate. And these people rarely (I can't think of any examples) became our algorithm experts who led the way in optimizing the scaling of large systems. But in my opinion, it was a HUGELY successful program. I mean, it was nice that the people who went through this program had a strong company loyalty. And it sure didn't hurt the morale in roles like telephone support to see some of their former colleagues entering a programming career. But what I really mean is that these people made some of our best developers. Because you need a mix of different skills as a developer. Sometimes you need someone who knows the latest algorithms or tools for optimizing performance or choosing the best new language to build in. But far more frequently, what you really need is someone who knows the business problem and can communicate about it clearly in the customer's own language. A project nudged into right direction to meet poorly expressed but still important business needs is easily worth thousands of developer-hours of work. And understanding of the business is what these people had, in spades. So, perhaps Ms. Lustig brings important skills that complement her developer role. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that perhaps she knows a LOT more about UI design than the average developer. She may also know a lot about the company and its needs. And these are VERY valuable things for a developer to know. (The flagged comment ALSO contained some completely unwarranted -- and unsubstantiated -- sexist assumptions which I think are better ignored than disputed.)
- aoeuhtns 6y agoGreat story! Could relate to some of the emotions as I went from a founder ceo in biotech to sales engineer in tech, to software engg, then manager, then back to software engg with some unintentional devops detour in the middle! That 'demotion' from founder ceo to sales engg was rough... but since it was in different geographies, I actually made more money and life quality was better!
- ritchiea 6y agoGreat for her, amazing that she was working at the type of organization that actually wants to keep people around. This coming from someone who recently had my work praised for 6 months then was let go just before my probation period ended.
- decafninja 6y agoMy current dream is to be "demoted" from senior SWE at a non-tech company to a mid level (or even junior! if possible) SWE at a mid to top tech company.
- draw_down 6y agoI know what you mean. Junior isn't the cakewalk it sounds like though, there's an "up or out" requirement that you advance to terminal level or get fired. So eventually you'd end up back at senior. Plus a lot of places use former interns in those junior roles so those positions are ironically very hard to come by. But yes, I can identify with that. Being one level below senior for the rest of my career would be great if it were possible.
- QuercusMax 6y agoI got "demoted" from being a Director and Fellow at a small company to being a Senior SWE at Google, with a significant pay bump even after taking into account bay area prices. I kept telling my old boss that I didn't want to manage, and eventually got the Fellow title instead of Director. I felt like I was stagnating. Now I'm on my way to Senior Staff SWE, and I keep telling my managers that I don't want to manage, which so far has been working OK. I've got enough responsibilities at home (3 teenagers) and at work that I don't feel like I need additional "children" to manage. Maybe I'll feel differently once my kids are a little older, but right now I've got plenty on my plate without worrying about others' careers and the millions of additional meetings that managers have.
- bargl 6y agoI switched careers 4 years after I graduated college. It wasn't as much a demotion and more of a lateral move, but it is never too late to change careers. That isn't to say there is no risk involved. Taking a new position has risks, and just like investing (which we've all heard too much about lately), you want to hedge your risks. Make sure you've got a good buffer in the bank, potentially a fall back position if it's a pay-cut, talk to your partner (if you have one), check out how to decrease your budget if needed, or supplement for a while if possible. I love these stories, I love seeing streamers make it, people move from a corporate job to starting their own thing, it's awesome. Most people who were successful had a safety net. They didn't jump without knowing the risks and being able to take the lower pay for a while. They also had a plan to make money. This is really important because I've also seen a ton of people who have been forced to switch careers due to not having a plan to make money. I'm not a researcher/etc. This is all anecdotal evidence I've seen, just sharing my thoughts and opinions. Anyway, congrats to anyone who does makes this kind of quality of life change!
- site-packages1 6y agoI think the title on HN is different than the title in the actual article, and has different implications. The HN title implies that getting "demoted" wasn't the goal but a bad effect of following dreams. The title from the actual article, "I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer," is much better: clearly the "demotion" was the goal of following their dreams.
- seankimdesign 6y agoRight, and given HN's policy towards preserving the original title when you can, it's especially puzzling as to why the title was edited to introduce this shade of negativity.
- kristinamay 6y agoFWIW I saw the feedback in here on the title, agreed with the potential for misinterpretation, and changed it in the original blog post to make its intended meaning more clear. The title was correct when it was posted.
- kevinventullo 6y agoIt’s a little tongue-in-cheek, but at Facebook when an IC switches to EM, I often hear people offer their condolences. When an EM switches to IC, they are congratulated on their promotion.
- lmilcin 6y agoDon't think in categories of promotion/demotion. The best you can do for yourself is to find the right place for you. If you don't feel well with what you are doing it does not matter how high on the corporate ladder you are. Treat it as a whole package of which prestige and pay is only one factor. I know personally a guy who left being a director at a large company and moved with his wife to a small farm. They don't earn a fraction of what he earned before but he said he would not come back. I have skipped over promotions to keep working with code because I don't feel well spending more than fraction of my time managing projects and teams. I have recently built my own electronics lab and am tinkering with increasingly complex designs because it is just fun. Complemented with my ability to code I plan to use that to maybe build some some products. No concrete plans other than explore what feels interesting to me and do it at my own pace.
- onlyfortoday2 6y agoi thought this was going to be about someone who wanted to become a CTO but was stopped for some reason... weird title
- nottrobin 6y agoDoes "director" mean something much lower than it sounds like? Or does "associate" mean something higher? To me, a "director" is someone who understands the business deeply, knows how to lead, take initiative, communicate very well, has years of business experience under their belt... They want to be a dev. Sure, they need to learn git, python etc. But these are not that hard at all. The harder part of being a developer is communication, making hard decisions, showing leadership. Things a director should be pretty damn good at. "Demoting" her to an associate developer is stupidly patronising.
- encoderer 6y ago> They want to be a dev. Sure, they need to learn git, python etc. But these are not that hard at all. The harder part of being a developer is communication, making hard decisions, showing leadership. Things a director should be pretty damn good at. This is really only true if you already know how to read and write code. For the vast majority of people, communication skills are easier to acquire than developer skills.
- AdrianB1 6y agoDirector is a rank with very different meaning in the industry; I know people with this rank at Adobe, Amazon, Microsoft, in banks, FMCG and there is attempt from some companies to catch up with the naming of various positions versus the rest of the market, but it's gone wrong in some places, director being a pretty low position of what used to be mid level managers or worse. A "sales director" is many times just an inflated title to senior sales people with no budget to administer and no organization to manage, maybe leading a team of 2-3 junior sales guys. I know a bunch of IT directors that failed the interviews as entry level managers, so it is impossible to me to figure out what the real level of a rank is when the name is Director.
- mindfulplay 6y agoIt's great to see someone being able to dictate success on your terms and not by a career ladder imposed on by an imaginary committee. Importantly she acknowledges that this is not all roses and fun (which makes it a proper job). So kudos to her for taking a demotion in the minds of career ladderists but in reality this sounds like a great way to managing opportunity costs properly and having fun while getting paid.
- oakfr 6y agoKudos to you and to your manager. I feel like we all kind of "stutter" in our career... "You are smart as hell. Don't let it define you."
- hinkley 6y ago> During these few years in which I’ve been coding in earnest on the side, I also found myself regularly discouraged and confused by the sheer number of possible things that I could learn or do. AITOO who sees a huge disconnect between the number of viable technologies, the prereqs for job openings, and the notion that there is a 'shortage of developers'? I'm not sure what changed, or when, but it definitely feels like there are tons of tools that can solve the same set of problems, and the tech choice is more down to preference than killer features separating complete products from also-rans. The odds that a company whose ad intrigued you uses almost none of the same tools as your current employer seems to be growing, and yet the ads that admit to on the job training or humbly ask for "or a similar tool" seem to be no more prevalent than ten years ago. There are plenty of people, just not ones who believe in your goals and also have 3 years of Laravel and React Native experience. Or I think my favorite pairing so far, .NET and MongoDB.
- robinhood 6y agoMost of the time, going to a management position is not a promotion. It’s a change of career. And yet, our culture (from the University to the press) pushes us to be promoted to manager, because if you are not a manager, you’ve failed somewhere.
- poniko 6y agoYea we lost to many good developers to management .. it's sad .. and they are often shitty managers ;)
- JackMorgan 6y agoI just stepped down from director of development at a large banking company to be a senior engineer somewhere else, and I'm loving it. I'm truly an engineer at heart, playing politics is just not enough for me to feel fulfilled. I'm delighted to have no direct reports and be free to spend my time outside work focusing on sharpening my technical saw.
- signaru 6y agoIdeally we will be promoted to be mentors to teach the same stuff we've mastered or to handle more difficult/critical parts of the things we're doing. But in reality, promotion means doing more work that you've never seen before. Usually tedious paperwork. Ironically, you're a noob again and now with less time to do the stuff you're good at. This is why I hate academe. The professor's tasks has very little to do with what a research student does.
- m463 6y ago> The hardest part for me has been getting used to working on code that lots of other people had worked on. That is one of the great truths of development. It is easier and more satisfying to build something from scratch. It's literally leveling up. In the great scheme of things it doesn't happen as often.
- r0rshrk 6y agoInteresting story. Would love to see how they end up feeling about it in an year or two