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How to lower the price of plant-based meat
- sparrish 6y agoIt really shouldn't be called "meat". It should be called plant-based protein or meat-substitute. The definition of "meat" shouldn't change because you press some soy to look like a chicken leg.
- zionic 6y agoI completely agree. That's one area where europe is much better than the US, they tend to force stuff to be labeled what it is.
- jdthedisciple 6y agoYup, very true. Just recently German chocolate producer "RitterSport" made a new chocolate product but were disallowed to call it chocolate because it doesn't contain any sugar (they used some substitute), which according to the definition a chocolate product has to contain to be called chocolate.
- pantalaimon 6y agoThat turned out to be a marketing stunt https://uebermedien.de/57277/wie-man-eine-neue-schokoladensorte-in-alle-medien-bringt/ https://uebermedien.de/57277/wie-man-eine-neue-schokoladenso...
- maxerickson 6y agoThe US has lots of those rules. It's likely enough they would apply to more specific terms, beef/chicken/pork, and so on, though.
- yreg 6y agoJust recently EP considered banning veggie burgers with the reasoning that something called a burger needs to contain dead animal parts.[0] I'm glad they changed their mind. [0] - https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-lawmakers-set-to-vote-on-fate-of-veggie-burgers/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-lawmakers-set-to-vote-on-...
- ben_w 6y agoLikewise, but the issue there is slightly different — if they had ruled that “burgers” had to contain meat, there would be a similar but stronger argument to force “hamburgers” to only refer to those made of ham. Hamburgers are named after the place they were invented (the city of Hamburg), itself named after a big castle which in German is “Burg”. And before anyone suggests one could also argue that “they’re only allowed to be called hamburgers if they’re from Hamburg and otherwise are just sparkling fried meat patties”, I apologise for spoiling the obvious joke by having looked up the EU rules for when something can be protected with a geographical designation (feta cheese, champagne, etc.) and discovered none of that sort of thing would apply.
- neilparikh 6y agoI'm not sure I'd consider regulatory capture and artificial barriers to entry by existing industries to be a good outcome, which is what this is; they rules aren't implemented to protect customers.
- tomrod 6y agoCall it protein and move on?
- avolcano 6y agoI don't really understand this. I've never seen a package of plant-based meat and found myself confused, much in the same way I've never seen a carton of oat milk and thought it contained dairy. What's the concern here?
- dabbledash 6y agoI don’t know about the meat issue, but I’ve seen women in mother’s groups ask “what kind of milk” people were going to be giving their babies after they were done giving breast milk or formula. Some people seemed to genuinely think that something called almond milk is actually a type of milk in some meaningful sense just because of the name.
- tedunangst 6y agoWait until they find out peanut butter isn't a type of butter.
- ben_w 6y agoNor made of nuts ;)
- FalconSensei 6y agoMy peanut butter ingredients list: peanuts. Seems that it is made of peanuts.
- tomrod 6y agoWhich aren't peas or nuts.
- Falling3 6y agoAre you implying that children that are weaned shouldn't have non-dairy milk substitutes?
- delibes 6y agoYes, as long as this isn't going down the route of "consumers will get confused" by terms like "oat milk". People aren't that stupid and the arguments against using the word milk annoy me. I think it's a sign that people are changing their diet and the dairy industry is worried.
- gus_massa 6y agoI once bought "I Can't Believe It's Not <bold><huge>Butter</huge></bold>!". I'm that stupid :(. https://www.google.com/search?q=I+can%27t+believe+it%27s+not+butter&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=I+can%27t+believe+it%27s+not...
- delibes 6y ago:) There's always one. FWIW I noticed Flora do a plant-based range now that's quite good. They label the 'butter' as Plant B+tter.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- pelasaco 6y ago> People aren't that stupid and the arguments against using the word milk annoy me. People are not stupid to try to kill corona with disinfectant: https://time.com/5835244/accidental-poisonings-trump/ https://time.com/5835244/accidental-poisonings-trump/
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago>> People aren't that stupid and the arguments against using the word milk annoy me. I think it's a sign that people are changing their diet and the dairy industry is worried. Well, calling plant mince patties "burgers" annoys me and I'm not the dairy industry, nor affiliated with it. Can we leave the annoyance aside and have a reasonable conversation about it? Here's my concern: it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that everyone should eat less meat than they eat (or rather, not everyone; just the people in cough, certain regions of the world where "meat" is synonymous with "food"; that is really not the case everywhere in the world). But in that case, let's promote plant-based cuisines, like Indian or Mediterrannean, with dishes that can be cooked at home with cheap and healthy ingredients and that do not rely on the production lines of the same large agribuisenesses that are responsible for destroying the environment with industrial farming (which includes mass-produced meat- and plant-based foods).
- TECHBEAST2k 6y agoMeat-substitute just sounds like a more generic way to say plant-based meat? Meat is also defined as the edible part of a fruit or nut. /shrug
- wavefunction 6y agoWhat about "nut meat" that seems to be a precedent.
- websites222 6y agoWhy shouldn’t it be called meat?
- bearbawl 6y agoBecause that’s not meat?
- websites222 6y agoSure it is. It’s right there on the label. Things are called what they are called not because they have properties which match a platonic ideal and those properties are inextricably linked with the phonetic and orthographic representations of a language. No, things are called what they are called because lots of people make those sounds or write those symbols and associate it with that thing, which people receive as information and then use themselves. In other words, you’ve already lost this battle, and you’ve lost it in many languages and countries at once. Whatever world you wish to preserve in which, for whatever reasons of comfort you insist that plant-based meat isn’t meat, no longer exists.
- bearbawl 6y agoBy the amount of words I’m sure I’ve lost indeed. In « many many » languages and countries, everywhere around the world, and particularly in our very small new extremism world. I have one question: why do people trying to eat only vegetables (is « vegetables » still ok?) insist so much to call that « plant-based » food « meat »?
- websites222 6y ago> I have one question: why do people trying to eat only vegetables (is « vegetables » still ok?) insist so much to call that « plant-based » food « meat »? That don’t. They just read what’s on the label and call it that. It’s preservationists who see a war here: everyone else has moved on.
- 6y ago
- DanBC 6y agoMeat == food, not just flesh. This is a very old definition for the word. It's also still used to describe the bits of nuts that we eat ("coconut meat"). meat, n. 1. a. Food in general; anything used as nourishment for men or animals; usually, solid food, in contradistinction to drink. Now arch. and dial. green meat: grass or green vegetables used for food or fodder (see green a. 4). See also hard meat, horsemeat, whitemeat. meal of meat, meal's meat: see meal n. 2 1e. a900: tr. Bæda's Hist. v. iv. (Schipper) 568 “He eode on his hus & þær mete [v.r. mæte] þyᵹede.” c975: Rushw. Gosp. Luke xii. 23 “Sawel mara is ðonne mett.” a1050: Liber Scintill. xlvii. (1889) 153 “Nys rice godes meta & drinc.” c1175: Lamb. Hom. 135 “Ne sculen ȝe nawiht ȝimstones leggen Swinen to mete.” c1200: Ormin 3213 “Hiss drinnch wass waterr aȝȝ occ aȝȝ, Hiss mete wilde rotess.” a1240: Lofsong in Cott. Hom. 205 “Ich habbe i-suneged ine mete and ine drunche.” a1300: Cursor M. 898 “Mold sal be þi mete for nede.” c1380: Wyclif Wks. (1880) 206 “Alas, þat so gret cost & bisynesse is sette abouten þe roten body, þat is wormes mete.” c1440: Pol. Rel. & L. Poems (1903) 185 “Thy mete shall be mylk, honye, & wyne.” 1477: Norton Ord. Alch. v. in Ashm. (1652) 76 “Without Liquor no Meate is good.” 1578: Lyte Dodoens ii. xlvi. 205 “These kindes of lillies are neither used in meate nor medicine.” 1623: Cockeram ii, “Meate of the Gods, Ambrosia, Manna.” meat, n. e. The edible part of fruits, nuts, eggs, etc.: the pulp, kernel, yolk and white, etc. in contradistinction to the rind, peel, or shell. ?Now only U.S. exc. in proverbial phrase (see quot. 1592). Also, the animal substance of a shell-fish. c1420: Pallad. on Husb. iii. 708 “A stanry pere is seyd to chaunge his mete In esy lond ygraffed yf he be.” 1530: Palsgr. 245/1 “Meate of any frute, le bon.” a1562: G. Cavendish Wolsey (1893) 30 “A very fayer orrynge wherof the mete or substaunce within was taken owt.” 1592: Shakes. Rom. & Jul. iii. i. 25 “Thy head is as full of quarrels, as an egge is full of meat.” 1613: Purchas Pilgrimage (1614) 506 “Of the meat of the Nut dried, they make oyle.” 1679: J. Skeat Art Cookery 30 “First take all the meat out of the lobster.” 1766: Museum Rust. I. lxxxiii. 370 “Low or swampy grounds don't answer well for potatoes,..the meat being generally scabby, close, wet and heavy.” 1802: Paley Nat. Theol. xx. (1819) 313 note, “The meat of a plum.” 1900: Boston Even. Transcr. 29 Mar. 7/3 “Force through a meat chopper with one-half pound nut-meats, using English walnut meats, pecan-nut meats.” 1902: Fortn. Rev. June 1012 “A bit of crab-meat.”
- ben_w 6y agoI guess that explains “mince pies” in the UK. For non-Brits: they are a traditional Christmas sweet pastry the size and shape of a cupcake, filled with “mincemeat”, which is meat-free and not to be confused with “minced meat”.
- exyi 6y agoThe goal is to taste / look / behave like meat so why not call it plant-based meat? In the end, the properties matter, not the production process.
- nomagicbullet 6y agoI agree. Why call something that is not meat "meat"? It seems that the only valid arguments is that the term is used as a marketing strategy to confuse consumers or appeal to their subconscious.
- simias 6y agoIt's because it's meant as a meat substitute. As far as I'm concerned it's very much conscious, if you want to make the veggie version of, say, a chicken dish you'll buy "veggie chicken" which is meant to have similar characteristics (usually in terms of flavor, appearance and consistence, not necessarily nutritional). It's hard for me not to dismiss these concerns are pure pearl clutching (or is it concern trolling? I'm not up to date on my internet debate lingo). If people really don't pay attention to the meat products they buy and they end up with veggie meat by mistake, there's a very good chance that they would've very easily ended up with some crappy ultra-processed low quality "technically meat" product instead. They might actually be better off with the plant option, quality-wise.
- danShumway 6y agoIs anyone really confused by this though? To be honest, this sounds like the same controversy as people complaining about almond "milk". I just don't see a lot of evidence that people are regularly accidentally buying vegan food. Meat has been used to refer to non-animal products for a long time, particularly around nuts. I don't think that the definition has changed as much as people are using a commonly understood term to refer to a category of food that's all used in similar situations and for similar purposes.
- WaitWaitWha 6y agoIn my experience I think so, as I wrote on this thread. I work with some inner city folk and yes, they are convinced it is meat, just really bad meat. As with almond milk, they think it is milk with almond added to it (even when I pull out the container from the fridge and show the ingredient list).
- therealdrag0 6y agoSo does that make them more or less inclined to eat if?
- hoppla 6y agoI do not think people are confused, but the plants that are trying to be something they are not.
- unsigner 6y agoThis. In the EU, you can't sell a concoction of palm oil, whey protein, fillers, flavors and colorings as "cheese" - you need to label it as "breakfast spread" or something like that. There are different words you are allowed to use for fruit-based drinks depending on how removed they are from actual fruit. Why not apply similar standards to the ersatz meat?
- websites222 6y agoThat's because of some lobbying by the meat industry, not out of a concern for the consumer. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/oct/16/eu-ban-veggie-burger-label-parliament-vote-meat https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/oct/16/eu-ban-v...
- sparrc 6y agoshould we also rename coconut milk? coconut cream? peanut butter? should we rename mincemeat since it rarely if ever contains meat anymore? and what about hot dogs...those don't contain dog do they? do we have to rename those too?
- dirtyid 6y ago>press some soy to look like a chicken leg. Are we even that there yet, seems like wide marketing died off after innovation in the space churned out one ground beef patty mcnugget meat product after another. I don't mind deceptive labelling if for mass appeal. I do want meat substitutes that actually behave and taste like meat in more than ground form. It's not viable substitute for vast majority of cuisine from around the world, that's before even getting into delicacies like offal.
- zionic 6y agoI'm far more interested in cultured/clean meat grown from real cells.
- Nailgun 6y agoAre there any commercial products and has anyone tried it? I do recall some video somewhere of a US restaurant and people said it was reasonable but that could have been plant based.
- drewg123 6y agoThe company behind Just Egg is vat-growing cultured chicken. It is limited to Singapore for now. See https://goodmeat.co/ https://goodmeat.co/
- thatcherc 6y agoI'm intrigued and want to read more about this, but that site is crazy. Takes >10 seconds on my phone to load the 'experience' which is a long-form scrolljacking narrative that starts with the history of the chicken. Their FAQ page is really interesting, but I can't find a way to link directly to it.
- kart23 6y ago40 MB of transfer for an FAQ. wonderful. But yeah, it does look really cool and they say they are working with the FDA to bring it to the US.
- Layke1123 6y agoI tried the impossible burger at Burger King. I could not tell a difference personally from any typical fast food burger. Would buy it again to satisfy a craving.
- wavefunction 6y agoThat's not cultured meat. It's plant-protein based.
- cccc4all 6y agoCows and livestock eat plants and convert into meat. It’s natural and organic and proven process that’s been around for thousands of years. Ground up plants with food colorings and odd shapes are not meat.
- hexo 6y agoExactly! There is no such thing as plant based meat.
- delibes 6y agoAgreed. Some vegans/vegetarians don't want their food labelled meat either. However please don't compare the modern industrial meat production with anything like farming from, say, 500 years ago, or with ancient hunting. Modern meat production is brutal (for necessary cost reasons) and hugely destructive to the environment.
- wtetzner 6y agoThere are still sustainable farms, and you can of course encourage more of it by buying your meat from those.
- handol 6y agoSure there are, but we don't have enough surface area on this planet to replace industrial meat production with sustainable farms without a vast decrease in output.
- sixstringtheory 6y agoThe price should go up according to the limited supply. That would naturally deflate demand and allow producers to invest in better processes.
- cccc4all 6y agoPlease look into these modern industrial plant processing and production for vegans, vegetarians. They will be much better off eating good quality meats from reputable sources.
- Layke1123 6y agoCombining a few points into one since they are related, but plant-based meat is a misnomer. Plant-based protein, or meat-substitute are better terms and meat should not have it's definition muddied. Lab grown meat from cultured cells, however, fair game. Trying to force companies to call it anything other than meat would be intentionally seeking to stifle innovation.
- jahnu 6y agoA worthy goal. I'd love to lower the price of plants too. It never fails to amaze me how expensive some vegetables are compared to meat for some rough equivalent measure like calories. The subsidies for meat and dairy are ridiculous by comparison.
- seventytwo 6y agoInteresting how all the Silicon Valley brainiacs here on HN are far more interested in discussing the semantics of “meat” than the technology or economics. Kind of disappointing, really.
- tomcam 6y agoWords are important. Kind of disappointing that you fail to understand that, really.
- shmageggy 6y agoAnd language constantly evolves. Also it’s irrelevant to the content of the article.
- Layke1123 6y agoAnd that is part of the reason we need to be precise with our language. Last time I checked, we use a dead language in medicine precisely because it is not evolving, and we don't want to have to fight a battle on two fronts. A similar thing can be observed in programming languages like Python, where it's important to know which version is used, or even in law, as legal English is entirely different than the constantly evolving language of common parlance. To think definitions that directly relate to the product are irrelevant to a wholistic view of the article is naïve and petulant. If you have a novel insight, add it. If you want to criticize others, enjoy your downvotes.
- tomcam 6y agoUpvoted because in retrospect I agree
- Falling3 6y agoVery disappointing. I'm not at all clear on the concern over semantics except in the case of lobbying groups and large companies on the animal ag side.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
- delibes 6y agotldr - economies of scale and cheaper inputs
- ggm 6y agoYep. But lurking underneath is health, and mouth-feel and taste. Cultured cell lines will possibly get past health because instead of plant based vitamins and nutrients it will be animal protein and fat soluble versions which are sometimes more bioavailable. Mouth feel is heavily dominated by fat, but also texture. I don't know if the cell culture meat lays down muscle fibre the same way actually being a leg of a grazing animal does. Tvp tried to emulate this with spun fibre complexes, I never found it very compelling. It's not really surprising meat substitution targets ground beef, ground chicken and the like.
- ebiester 6y agoI disagree with some of the premises. First, I think that the right choice is to pick the right protein for the job, and not choose wheat and soy because of price. Mung beans, for example, are expensive because people aren't growing them. If quantity demanded grows, so will supply and supply chains, which will lower the price. It is possible that mung beans (as an example) are marginally more expensive to grow for some reason other than scale, but I would be surprised. Second, I think they are getting cause and effect mixed up. They are saying to go downmarket because it will be cheaper, but it is much harder to beat Tyson at its own game with chicken nuggets than it is to provide a product at a higher perceived quality, then use profits to provide scale to go downmarket. Plant-based versions already suffer from a perception of lower quality - it makes sense to compete on taste before cost because failing at both will never scale.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y agoThe thing that I found incredibly strange about this analysis is that it is saying how older plant-based products from Morningstar and Gardein show it can be done cheaper. What??? I don't even consider those older veggie products in the same category as Impossible and Beyond, mainly because I think they taste like shit. Well, not shit exactly, but for me an Impossible Burger can completely satiate my hunger for meat. Morningstar-type burgers do absolutely none of that for me.
- nicpottier 6y ago100 percent agree. I'm almost entirely vegetarian but would occasionally allow myself a burger as a treat as it is one of my favorite meals when I have a real hankering. A Beyond or Impossible patty now completely satisfied that craving. They really have done a great job of it. Note I am not saying they are indistinguishable from real beef, but they are meaty enough in a way that scratches the itch which previous products never did.
- redisman 6y agoMorningstar is pretty good with their sausage patties and hot dogs. Some of the best in those categories. The gap between the 1.0 veggie meats and the current ones ( especially impossible) is insane though. Juiciness and flavor are completely on a different level. I love that it doesn’t feel like eating a fake burger to somewhat satisfy my craving anymore, but like I ate a burger.
- hannob 6y agoInterestingly it doesn't even discuss the obvious solution: Let people who buy real meat pay for the externalities. (Interestingly even in places where there's some form of carbon pricing - like the EU - this often doesn't cover a large share of emissions from meat production, as methane emissions are very relevant here - I'm not aware of any methane pricing scheme anywhere.)
- eznzt 6y agoI was going to say "that won't go well with the voters" but it's not like the EU is a democracy.
- AlecSchueler 6y agoThe EU is a democracy.
- eznzt 6y agoLike the average EU citizen, I don't remember ever voting for anybody who represents me in the EU and I don't know any of the structures of power of the EU or how they work.
- gus_massa 6y agoThe last election was in 2019 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_European_Parliament_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_European_Parliament_elect...
- goatinaboat 6y agoTo the figurehead, talking shop parliament. Effectively all the power in the EU belongs to the commission, which is appointed not elected.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
- shmageggy 6y agoDecent article but misses a bunch. Those cheap staple crops are only cheap because they are massively subsidized, and also grown as huge, environmentally damaging monocrops. So while yes, it may be cheaper to use corn, it’s only really solving the ethical problems of meat by hedging on the environmental axis. In general, it seems there needs to be something deeper done. Something is deeply wrong when cutting out the inefficient middle-man (the animal that converts plants to meat) somehow ends up with a product that’s MORE expensive.
- jcampbell1 6y ago> only cheap because This is often repeated nonsense. The reason corn is a popular crop is because it yields the most calories per acre of any crop. Places without crop subsidies grow lots of corn. See Argentina, Brazil, Africa, etc.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- OneGuy123 6y ago> In Europe, the UK’s largest retailer, Tesco, launched more than 30 new own-brand plant-based products, as its CEO wrote that the UK should eat “less meat and dairy.” "its CEO wrote that the UK should eat “less meat and dairy." I wonder when incentive he could have for writting such a thing. Surely it cannot be a financial one?
- Not_Nominated 6y ago>plant-based meat There is no such thing as plant-based meat. There's only plant-based protein. If we didn't live in a corrupt society this would be punishable by court for disinformation.
- jeffrallen 6y agoUmm, just eat the plants instead? I don't get fake meat. It is a solution to the wrong problem. Make a small amount of meat sustainable and respectful of animal wellness. Then make the rest of your diet plant based. Done.
- Dylan16807 6y agoJust eat broccoli instead? I don't get other foods. Make a small amount of other things sustainable and respectful, then make the rest of your diet broccoli. Done. Almost the entire point of cultivating different foods is to enjoy different flavors and textures. If something is tasty but expensive, in terms of money or the environment, we should encourage the people that try to make it cheaper. There's no reason to want things to be expensive and rare treats.
- bigfudge 6y agoI think the point is that we have tried making meat cheap and it created a lot of problems. Until we fix those problems the grandparent comments strategy seems sound.
- TulliusCicero 6y agoHow is that strategy sound in the least? What's your plan to convert billions of people to stop eating meat? The objective here isn't to convert a few people on hacker news, it's to convert billions. "Hey dummies, just eat plants! They were here the whole time!" isn't gonna happen.
- bigfudge 6y agoI'm replying late but...By "strategy" here I'm referring to the strategy for humans to eat less meat to achieve environmental goals — not any particular strategy to achieve a reduction in meat eating. I agree that achieving that outcome is going to be hard.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
- vz8 6y agoFresh fruit and veg prices have practically quadrupled in the last 10 years here (Florida). Beef is significantly up. On the other hand, chicken is ridiculously inexpensive. For under $7, a tray of 8 oversized chicken thighs. Following a Keto regimen for a bit over a year now, I'm very keen on trying a different approach to high-protein, low-carb intake. The novel proteins the article discusses (mung beans, potatoes, fava beans, chickpeas, lentils, oats, lupine, and faba) give me a wider array to try, but I can see how difficult plant-based meat pricing will be when the crops are so much more expensive than the corn/wheat/soy tri-fecta. What keeps the novel crops pricing so high? (looks like 15 to 160 times higher than corn/wheat/soy at the extremes) Labor?
- redisman 6y agoSubsidies and less genetically modified/highly selected specialized versions of the crops.
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y agoIt's interesting to note the names of the companies in the article: >> In China, Beyond Meat signed five major new partnerships, with Starbucks, retailers Alibaba and Metro, distributor Sinodis, and Yum China (owner of KFC, Pizza Hut, and Taco Bell). >> In the rest of Asia, Thailand’s largest meat company, CP Foods (...) >> In Latin America, Brazilian agribusiness giant Marfrig (...) >> In Europe, the UK’s largest retailer, Tesco (...) >> Dairy giant Danone (...) >> Unilever shared that a third of its products are now plant-based. (...) >> Danone declared its ambition to more than double its plant-based sales >> worldwide (...) >> In the US, Starbucks started selling Impossible breakfast sandwiches, as did >> Burger King, while KFC began a new trial of Beyond Fried Chicken (...) These are all the very same agribusiness colossi that are responsible for the despoiling of land and the destruction of the environment by the most brutal intensive agriculture and farming methods. And it's these companies that are expected to solve the problem of mass food production (plant- or meat-based) in a way that does not destroy the environment even more and that respects the health and the nutrition needs of their customers? I find that extremely naive. Such companies simply want to sell the cheapest, lowest-quality food products for the highest possible profit (Taco Bell! KFC! Burger King!). If they can claim to protect the enviroment, even as they further brutalise it, then all the better for their bottom line.
- shartshooter 6y agoIf you're trying to bring a new product to market don't you want to rely on the infrastructure that already exists? What's the alternative if you want to make an impact quickly? Sure, KFC, PizzaHut, etc. have contributed significantly to increases in meat consumption, but isn't that exactly the place to start? Just like BP, Shell, etc. are diversifying away from fossil fuels, the companies you mentioned likely see the writing on the wall. Considering the fact that they already have supply chains in place to support a significant portion of the population, using them as a proxy to get alternative meats to people at a reasonable cost seems like the path of least resistance. Agreed, these companies in many ways have despoiled the land as you said but their real motivation is generating profit, they don't necessarily care about the food being low quality, they care that it's good enough for people to buy it and cheap enough to sell it. If alternative meats drive the same demand, or more, as regular meats and can be sold at similar margins, and as a byproduct the companies can say they're on the alternative meats train, I think you'll see them come onboard. My parents, who are as far from alternative meat fans as you can find, are in complete alignment that eating meat isn't going to be nearly as commonplace in 30 years as it is today and are interested in investing in alternative meat producers just due to the fact that society is trending in that direction. Of course you've got the rise of countries coming out of poverty whose populace is going to expect to eat a bunch of meat which is why it's critical that we get economies of scale, distribution, etc. nailed down now before they acquire a real taste of beef grown on an industrial farm, instead we need options for them to buy alternative, or potentially lab grown, meats. Doing so would have the benefit of generating massive amounts of innovation in how food is produced while, hopefully, reducing relative and absolute greenhouse gas emissions.
- lorax_108 6y agoplant based "meat" is not good for you. do not eat it.
- WaitWaitWha 6y agoA tangential topic - I really think that in general calling plant-based things "meat", a terrible idea. It does not promote plant-base diet or meat consumption reduction. It is trying to be what is not. I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods. Why? Because the consumer is told it is "meat", so they will compare it to meat. They will compare these patties to a real, prime Angus burger. If we could be honest and declare them what they are, plant-based patties (come up with new name or whatever, plenty of plant-based names in non-English languages) I think it would improve the general image and consumption of these products. Suddenly we would not be locked in the "meat" category. We can have all kinds of flavors for these products, instead of "meat" flavor, not having to "live up to" the meat taste, and mouth feel. We can live up to great flavors vegetables, fruits, and herbs.
- k__ 6y agoWhy shouldn't they compare it to meat? If I am asked to replace meat with plants, these plants have to compete with meat.
- Already__Taken 6y agoI've had a few of kinds of these burgers and honestly they're really nailing it with meat as a description.
- drivingmenuts 6y agoExcept for lying about it being meat. That definition should be reserved for animal-based protein.
- GNU_James 6y ago>plant-based meat No such thing exists by definition.
- bigfudge 6y agoThere is a lovely comment up thread providing over a thousand years worth of quotes proving the contrary
- TulliusCicero 6y agoWhat is it with this topic and people being intentionally obtuse? "Hey, that's not actually meat!" Yeah, and almond milk isn't real milk, and peanuts aren't actually nuts. Who cares? Are people looking at food from Beyond and Impossible and thinking it's for-real animal flesh? As long as it's labeled properly, what's the problem?
- ggm 6y agoIf you want a truly awesome plant based meat experience for taste and mouth feel try "tartex" which is a nutritional yeast derived pate, and I eat it as itself, no fakery needed but revel in its foie like texture. Sold in tubes, invented more than 70 years ago. Perhaps a little too greasy afterward (I suspect it's palm oil) but heaps of umami.
- Jkvngt 6y agoI know it's maybe not a very sophisticated position to take in the current year, but I will not eat the fake meat, I will not eat the bugs, I will not live in a pod, I will not own nothing.
- zionic 6y agoI’m with you on everything but the cultured meat. If it’s real cells grown in an environment with no antibiotics or hormones that’s a huge win over growing an entire animal that stands in its own crap all day and is pumped full of growth chemicals and antibiotics so it doesn’t die. I’d love to buy my own self contained steak 3D printer for $10k
- hamax 6y agoYou'd eat a 3D printed steak but not soy or wheat protein that you probably already eat multiple times a week?
- gherkinnn 6y agoIf the 3d printed steak tastes anywhere near as good as one taken from a well-treated animal, yes.
- xkcd-sucks 6y agoI mean you can already get a single-use steak maker that comes with a very sophisticated self-regulation system and only costs a few hundred dollars plus feedstock - it's called a feeder calf
- gherkinnn 6y agoIn my experience, the most outspoken pod-dwellers sneak out at night to get crappy McD with extra bacon. It’s a bit like these anti-gay preachers being caught having gay sex.
- vuciv1 6y agoWhy not if it tasted just like the original, had many more essential micronutrients, and had less carcinogens than original meat? I don't get excited about meat for the environmental impact, but rather for the health improvements.
- zaroth 6y agoAside from personal preference, I would think there are two main reasons to consider replacing animal meat protein with plant protein. Because it could be healthier for the planet, and because it could be healthier for human consumption. I’m not sure we’ve proven either one is definitely true. I think the evidence leans towards plant farming being less impactful to the planet on a fundamental conservation of energy basis, but farming at scale the ways that humans tend to do it causes a lot of problems with soil erosion and pesticide contamination which are yet to be overcome, but likely easier to solve than a similar problem of growing enough grass and corn for the cows. On the other hand, I’m a lot less convinced that eating these highly processed plant proteins (to get them into a desirable form for mass consumption) is necessarily a de facto healthier way for humans to get their protein. I just tend to be wary of IPO-scale manufacturing of hyped/trendy processed foods.
- bigfudge 6y agoYou do know that a high proportion of all crops in the US are fed to cows right? We are not feeding cows grass, so your argument is mostly moot.
- imoverclocked 6y agoSo, to recap, feeding plant crops to animals is the current best way to produce plant based meat. Seems like the best way to feed our crops is also with animal products. I don’t really understand why we want to work so hard to drive a technological wedge into this process. Is it to get rid of other animals on the planet?
- redisman 6y ago> Seems like the best way to feed our crops is also with animal products. You want to feed our crops with animal products? Like pour some ground meat in the cornfield?
- imoverclocked 6y ago
- ninetax 6y agoOne method not mentioned is the usage of bio-processing to produce proteins identical to those coming from animal products using only genetically modified microbes. The advantage here is that you're getting as close to the real thing as you can.. Actually there's no difference from the real thing at the protein level- though fats and things need to be added back from imitation sources to re-assemble to thing you're imitating. This probably isn't overall cheaper today (vs soy, wheat, etc), but the processes is very inefficient and has a TON of room to be improved upon. At a large scale your inputs are glucose and some microbes. Fermentation does the rest. It just so happens that's what we're working on at at Culture Biosciences. Shoot me an email if this kind of stuff fascinates you. We're hiring software and hardware engineers. satshabad@culturebiosciences.com
- pinot 6y agoFor the large-scale tonnage using bioscience to create protein is incredibly capital, energy and water-intensive. If you could do it anaerobically, that would help on the energy front, but there's big limit on volumetric efficiency (cell density/tankturn) of anaerobic. For aerobics, maintaining lab-scale OTRs in 200m and larger reactors is very very power-intensive. kLa is a power-law relationship with power-input
- thordenmark 6y agoUltimately these plant-based alternatives will be enhanced or replaced with insects, once people have been largely weaned off of meat. Most people won't notice or care. We aren't squeamish about blue food dye after all, we're just used to it.
- uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 6y agoYeah give me the 80/20 ground chuck (80% insect-derived protein, 20% exoskeleton). Make sure the roaches were free-range, naturally sewer fed. I would like to see comfortable lives and painless deaths for all our slaughtered animals. But is killing insects more humane than chickens etc? Do we really beleive that if BigPoultryCo determined it could make a profit raising and killing insects it would do so in a manner somehow more in tune with our sentimentalities?
- grumple 6y agoIt’s interesting that the prices for meat quoted in the article are far lower than what I see in my major American city, with meat typically going for triple the quoted prices. Vegan alternatives are quite attractive because there’s not much of a price difference here.
- TulliusCicero 6y agoIt's possible you're just shopping at more upmarket places?
- GNU_James 6y ago>fraud-based ddemocratic election
- ksec 6y ago> With an impending global financial recession He didn't word it as "likely", or "may be". This reads to me as it will definitely happen. While I am not completely against the idea and certainly feel the real possibility of happening. It doesn't give a hint as to why.
- beervirus 6y agoIf COVID didn’t do it, I’m not sure what will.
- soufron 6y agoIsn't it funny that the same country is both promoting vegetarianism and the death penalty - and features the biggest military force in the world? Just to say.
- cphoover 6y agoVegetarian evangelism ignores the huge culture around food and meat eating... its not something that can be changed easily. This is underapreciated in all debates about vegetarianism. There are food cultures around the world that survive on primarily meat, where the animal is worshiped as sacred for its significance to the survival of the society. There are regions known for meat recipes that go way back throughout history. People arguing against eating meat ignore all of this. Food is nostalgia, food is heritage and tradition, food is culture.
- diziet 6y agoFrom an athletic or 'health' perspective, these plant-based meat substitutes have way too high fat content. You can get 93+% lean beef with 3-4 grams of fat per 20~ grams of protein, or even higher with game meat. None of the plant proteins appeal to a healthy eater, with the high coconut/canola/sunflower oil content.
- travisporter 6y agoI see it as them trying to compete with meat. Impossible has higher cholesterol content than beef right now, but I have a feeling this will change as the industry matures.
- travisporter 6y agoI stand corrected meant to say sat fat
- pinot 6y agoPlant-based foods cannot have cholesterol.
- bpizzi 6y agoMoreover, there's no correlation between the LDL ingested and the degradated LDL that freely floats in arteries.
- xsmasher 6y ago> the Impossible Burger has 0 mg cholesterol, compared to a quarter-pound, conventional "80/20" patty from cows which has about 80 mg cholesterol. Fat and saturated fat is slightly higher; sodium is much higher.
- atweiden 6y ago> From an athletic or 'health' perspective, these plant-based meat substitutes have way too high fat content. You can get 93+% lean beef with 3-4 grams of fat per 20~ grams of protein, or even higher with game meat. None of the plant proteins appeal to a healthy eater, with the high coconut/canola/sunflower oil content. Agreed — but it's an apples to oranges comparison you're making. Highly processed foods of all sorts have added oil. A more productive line of questioning would compare game meat with whole food plant based alternatives like raw soybeans and lentils. I say this because my hangup with veganism used to be exactly yours here. I used to think there was no way to get adequate macros with vegan food, but it's definitely possible to hit your target macros with determination. Key to turning the corner in my understanding was realizing the fiber content (in grams) must be subtracted — at least in part — from the total carbohydrate content. Most legumes are essentially a 1:2 ratio between protein:carbs, with negligible amounts of fat. Assuming a target intake of 1.4-1.6g of protein per kg bodyweight, you can readily hit your macros even on a calorie restricted diet (~1600 kcal).
- elil17 6y agoI think a huge issue is that Impossible Foods has a patent on yeast produced heme. Hard to create something of comparable quality without that.
- socialdemocrat 6y agoWhat would the price of meat be if producers had to pay for the impact on nature and actually care about animal welfare? I admit I love meat but I am increasingly trying out plant based alternatives and I must say that I am increasingly impressed by what I taste. Availability is a problem for me. Most stores don’t have all these new products. It is also one of the downsides and benefits of living inside the Norwegian agricultural bubble. We rely a lot on our own products which is limits variation given how small the Norwegian market is. On the positive side it means better animal welfare and meat safety. When you don’t directly compete with foreign meat producers government is not pressured to lower standards to be competitive.