11 ms·

My product is my garden

731 points by square_usual 6y ago

transitivebs 6y ago
Beautifully written && definitely hits home. Putter on, my friend.
baxtr 6y ago
A very appealing concept. I hope people doing this succeed in generating sufficient income to make a living. PS: I also like the gardener analogy. It is used elsewhere, too, e.g. the “Gardener-Leader” concept of the US Army. https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/military-review/Archives/English/MilitaryReview_20120831_art009.pdf https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/military-review/Ar...
- shoo 6y ago
  thank you for sharing the link, very interesting to see a similar idea discussed within another community.
twelvechairs 6y ago
I wish this kind of concept was aspired to by more political parties and countries for their citizens. It seems something that lives only in a small world of the internet for those who achieve it.
ghoomketu 6y ago
I am on the same page with you. But I've also decided to focus all my strength on one thing for the next 5 years just improving it and making it the best product for my customers. Right now it's so easy to make apps with amazing frameworks like Vue and Laravel that anybody can create something in a week or sometimes even a day[1]. We indiehackers are never short of ideas and shiny objects. I too was part of that movement and I created many projects, one or two even won out Product hunt proudct of the day and started making money too. Alas the fame and fortune was short lived because I was just too distracted and never focused on building one thing. I never took the step that is much more important than launching the product. It's the boring day-in and day-out sales and marketing part. The content writing and the lead generation part. The SEO part. The thing that acutally brings in the revenue part. So anytime I have an amazing idea for my next project. I just quietly put in my Google docs and get back to my main focus. I think this is the only thing which will finally help me succeed. [1] https://24hrstartup.com/ https://24hrstartup.com/
- tangjurine 6y ago
  What is your main project?
  - ghoomketu 6y ago
    It's a tool to create videos using just text, called Buzzvid. You can play with the demo here (1). I'm still working on the homepage, tutorials, etc. It's still a month until launch. Don't want to hijack this thread but if you have any feedback, please send it to the email in my HN profile. (1) https://buzzvid.com/members.html https://buzzvid.com/members.html
- abraae 6y ago
  As long as you select the right product to focus on, that sounds an excellent plan.
  - jmathai 6y ago
    I think OP's point is that you have to focus this way to get to the point of knowing if a product is the right one to focus on. Not focusing this way only guarantees that you'll move on before even finding out.
raunometsa 6y ago
Beautiful analogy, Herman!
pmlnr 6y ago
There has been a growing movement around the thought that one's website is their digital garden, for example: https://tomcritchlow.com/2019/02/17/building-digital-garden/ https://tomcritchlow.com/2019/02/17/building-digital-garden/
ljsocal 6y ago
love the gardening analogy. Interesting thing I learned from gardening is how plants can frequently benefit from neglect. This also applies to non-plant initiatives.
- raunometsa 6y ago
  Interesting! Like, leave your plants alone and let them live? (while still occasionally watering them?)
the_cat_kittles 6y ago
i think of it like a shop too. you just kind of fuck around making your tools better, goofing off, accumulating knowledge and stuff... and slowly become useful
m12k 6y ago
I struggle with balancing the urge to putter like the author puts it, with doing "expansionistic" things like marketing or building features that are valuable to new customers rather than existing ones. The "correct" business analysis will say the business gets much more out of new acquisition channels than micro-optimizing the product further, that I shouldn't fall into the "build it and they will come" mentality. But my first instinct will always be to want to just create the best possible product for my existing customers - it's what brings me joy, and it's really hard for me to designate any suboptimal state of the product as "good enough for now" and focus on acquisition instead. For now I try to balance it by alternating doing one or the other in each sprint - that way I never neglect puttering completely, but I also force myself not to do it exclusively like I'd probably do if I just based the decision on personal motivation.
- kevsim 6y ago
  I'd say if you have existing customers, you're already past most companies with a "built it and they will come" mentality. Most of those fail to ever acquire real users.
- plumsempy 6y ago
  I agree with you and I will add my own tint to it: I do this to push myself to grow and move forward and then lie back and do what's comfortable and familiar. Rinse and repeat.
yonisto 6y ago
Hits home! One of these days I'll join you and have my own garden.
equality_1138 6y ago
Love the garden analogy in software, especially when faced with complex systems that can't easily be managed by rigid IT project management styles. Was reminded of another short piece going way back to 2007: https://signalvnoise.com/posts/591-brainstorm-the-software-garden https://signalvnoise.com/posts/591-brainstorm-the-software-g...
- LeonB 6y ago
  You did well to retrieve that one from the memory banks! Must’ve left an impression. I think I read it too.
  - equality_1138 6y ago
    His book, Rework, is what got me interested in his writings. I guess the short article left a mark mainly because it reflected ideas that I enjoyed from the book
abinaya_rl 6y ago
Love this analogy. I feel like it's intended to me. I've been part of this Indiehacker movement since last 2 years building Remote Leaf[1]. Sometimes I worry too much when I get 2 churns in a day and happy next day when I get 1 new customer. I hate these process. Instead of trying to be like growth at all costs, I need to follow your strategy. Just help people. Just improve the product. Just do the gardening. [1] - https://remoteleaf.com https://remoteleaf.com
dmje 6y ago
Lovely post, and a great idea. I personally very much like the idea of not scaling - and in fact have done this for 10 years with our (still tiny) digital agency. We could have chosen to take on staff many times but instead opt for a lifestyle business where I can hang out and look at the sea and be with my wife and kids. In building products, my biggest issue to date feels like it is that I rarely bring anything to fruition - but actually this article helped me with that. It really highlighted how it's ok to incrementally push things along, get to a couple of launches just for your own satisfaction, and maybe make a little bit of cash - but you don't have to have any aspiration to "make it big". Thanks for posting :-)
iechoz6H 6y ago
Does he mean `potter`?
- malobre 6y ago
  "Putter" is an alternative spelling.
- erwincoumans 6y ago
  Potter is for the majority, putter for the happy few :)
yesenadam 6y ago
> This is my garden, and I intend to putter. I was about about to correct that use of "putter" as a typo, but it seems it's a USAism. Never seen that before. I'd always thought machines/engines putter, gardeners potter. I put it to the super-accurate Purported Google Results Test: putter in my garden - 7 million potter in my garden - 142 million putter around - 9 million potter around - 363 million putter about - 49 million potter about - 581 million Although when I put on a USA accent, there's not very much difference between my "potter" and "putter", maybe that's something to do with "putter" apparently being the US spelling.
- elliotec 6y ago
  The writer is from South Africa, as mentioned in the post. "Putter about" is definitely not a USAism, it's an English expression used throughout the anglophone world that can be spelled "putter" or "potter," meaning the same thing. I've only heard it pronounced "putter" personally. The stats are interesting!
  - yesenadam 6y ago
    Yeah you're right. "Puttering about", with that sense of a machine chugging along, seems a different thing to pottering. Pottering in a garden seems more like patiently tinkering with something than continually moving from place to place.
  - dagw 6y ago
    "putter" or "potter," meaning the same thing. I don't think they mean the same in British English. My motorboat "putters about the lake" while I "potter about in my garden". But I could be wrong.
    - jfk13 6y ago
      I would have assumed "putter" (in this sense) is onomatopoeic, from the sound of a small engine running slowly. "Potter", OTOH, comes from a word for poking or prodding at the ground (hence appropriate for gardening). (I suppose with the right kind of ride-on mower, it's possible to "putter about the garden" with appropriate sound effects!) Checking OED citations, though, it seems the "putter" form (as a variant of "potter", distinct from the sound of an engine "puttering") does have a similar history (both go back to the 1820s). Still, I'd agree that "potter about the garden" is by far the more common usage.
simplecto 6y ago
What a nice sentiment, and one I am completely on board with. I've likened my "digital puttering" to my father whiling away the hours in the garage during my childhood. Some hammering, some grinding, and my mother occasionally taking out a cup of tea. And to build on that there was a cool video recently about a forensic pathologist in Houston who makes kitchen knives. He's not scaling, but it seems that it is a hobby that he loves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPSlfz65h8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPSlfz65h8
regulation_d 6y ago
Love the length of this post. more interesting than what could be said in a tweet, but didn’t belabor his best points. Excellent piece.
elliotec 6y ago
I love this and I aspire to eventually, if I come out of the grinder with any ambition, drive, or passion left, do something similar. I abhor big corpratism, and love the way software can be independent and disconnected from it, if not usually in practice. I deeply admire Basecamp's style of "you don't need VC money, keep it small, keep building something useful that gets you paid." I want that someday but someday is not this day. I'm not much of an idea guy. I can build stuff. I can get really passionate about how things "should be" and implement process and infrastructure to get there. But whatever "it" is, just hasn't come to me yet. I long to be an indiehacker but for all the supposedly wrong reasons. I want to putter but don't know where to get the right seeds to be puttering for.
- qwantim1 6y ago
  Is Basecamp really the example to aspire to? Being the developer of Rails and ActiveRecord and fostering and milking that would be the software equivalent of Peter Frampton, and I mean that in the most positive way. I think we know that we’re not all going platinum. This article was about just “working on the song(s)” for the enjoyment of it, whatever that may involve, or that’s the way I took it.
  - playpause 6y ago
    > the software equivalent of Peter Frampton Can you clarify this? Just curious. Heard of him, but no idea what you mean.
    - x4j91 6y ago
      I think the sentiment is that Basecamp is no Led Zeppelin. In that they perhaps haven't achieved the record breaking, Unicorn level growth that many startups strive for. But perhaps that's OK for them? They've got some great tunes, a loyal following, and can still put on a fantastic show. They're superstars by any definition. Peter Frampton had a standout, influential "live" album and an innovative style of playing that will forever be remembered. Led Zeppelin had a series of standout albums and hit songs spanning close to a decade, spawning Unicorn level sales, crowds and generational fandom that held influence on rock and roll for 40+ years. But the band members of Zeppelin eventually succumbed to the excesses of their success. They split up after some really dark days. The scope and size of their success wasn't long term manageable on a personal level. But their legacy remains. Whereas Frampton is still playing small live venues today!!!! He's still rocking out.
mwidell 6y ago
This resonates with me. I get the same experience from my youtube channel - making a modest but sufficient income to make a living, talking directly to my "users" every day - hearing their appreciation and the stories on how my videos directly changed their life. So enjoyable.
nexthash 6y ago
This post almost reads like a manifesto of the digital gardening movement that was showcased on HN a few months back [1], with some indiehackers sprinkled in. Just a small space of your own on the Internet to cultivate your thoughts/projects, outside the gigantic walls and rigidity of Big Tech platforms. There's even a subreddit [2] for them! I like to think of software projects as belonging in three categories - massive high growth products (big tech), more niche low growth products, and side-projects. Digital gardens and small software projects with a band of loyal users seem to go between side-project and niche product. They are a welcome escape from the noise of big platforms, so I hope this developer/Internet trend catches on across the web. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24996780 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24996780 [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/DigitalGardens/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DigitalGardens/
jwr 6y ago
This is how I approach my SaaS business. Long-term sustainability, enjoyable development using technologies I like, dealing with smart and nice customers. Caring for the app.
erikstarck 6y ago
This is a beautiful analogy. One of my favourite quotes is from Jane McGonical: "we are as human beings designed to do hard, meaningful work". If you enjoy gardening, it doesn't feel like work. You do it because it's... meaningful. Ikigai is that perfect spot in which the work you enjoy doing also creates value from someone else. You are in the zone, doing what you love. This concept, together with the one about optimising your area of luck that was posted a few days ago, are all you really need to craft a successful - and joyful - career.
benjaminjosephw 6y ago
Where are there online communities for people into this kind of tech sub-culture? Most Indie Hacker type communities seem to eventually attract a critical mass of "Hustle Boys" and most startup communities tend to be dismissive of anything that doesn't have hyper-growth potential. It makes sense that a large number of tech entrepreneurs live between these two extremes. Where do they hang out?
- erwinh 6y ago
  I think you can find it in the crossover towards more artistic/design/science focussed communities. Generative art, data visualisation etc. Of course there are hustlers there as well but to me it does feel to be more about the creativity, techniques, ideas.
- new_here 6y ago
  There are various communities around the web that all have their own personalities. HN, /r/programming and Twitter are the biggest and most active but also most cynical. Lobste.rs (https://lobste.rs/ https://lobste.rs/) is almost purely tech focussed. Dev.to is very (overly?) friendly but it's hard to find substance among the noise. Indie Hackers which you've alluded to, does what it says on the tin but also attracts those hustler types. The great thing about the internet is that if you think it's missing something, you can build it! I've been working on my own tech community called Able (https://able.bio https://able.bio) in my spare time for about 3 years now. I'd like it to be an intersection of software, hardware and business but with less cynicism and self-hype of other places. Just a place to appreciate the merits of human ingenuity. You're welcome to come hang out there if you like. But yeah, if anyone knows of any other communities I'd also be interested to check them out. I feel like a bit of variety would be nice at the moment.
- ehnto 6y ago
  I decided to start a Discord for it, it's been on my mind for a while. I'm not interested in the VC moonshot culture, and frankly am not in the location for it anyway. I also don't care for SEO marketing ploys and hustle bullshit. The community values I would want in a community like that are: * A focus on building products that meet real world problems * Pragmatism, stability and longevity in your products * Discussions about bootstrapping with real customers * Investment can be useful but it shouldn't be a stand in for a real business model * Realistically these are businesses, money is a real factor, but no get rich quick schemes, we're just trying to get sensibly rich slowly * No narcissistic hustle bullshit, no marketing ploys
erwinh 6y ago
Really feeling this, got so much work done last year by just continuously smoothing out all kinds of small little details in my parametric design software tools. Which individually are all quite insignificant but now it really starts to feel like an ecosystem (garden!) of functions, classes & objects working together in concert for beautiful effects.
- erwinh 6y ago
  Literally used it to make digital grass as well: https://twitter.com/hoogerwoord/status/1348394004413620224?s=20 https://twitter.com/hoogerwoord/status/1348394004413620224?s...
afarrell 6y ago
This is one thing that has made the transition to a larger company so hard for me. In smaller team, you can spend a bit of time cleaning up the codebase or tooling and know that investment will compound via increased velocity. When you share a codebase with 200 others, trying to get anything tidy and readable is such a yak-shaving exercise, you feel like the main character from https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/ https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/ This is the actual emotional reason why I am now such a big fan of microservices (or rather, moderately-sized services): I want my own garden to tend alongside a moderately-sized team.
square_usual 6y ago
Disclaimer: I posted this link, but I am not the author of the blog.
m-i-l 6y ago
This was a good read. I've read about personal websites being digital gardens, and describe my own as "more of a functional vegetable patch than an ornamental floral garden". However, I've not seen bootstrapped side-projects compared to gardens, and like the analogy between gardening and farming, where gardening is more fun and less scalable than farming (but that being a good thing in this context). I wonder if a smallholding might be a more appropriate analogy for side-projects though, given gardens and personal websites are usually for personal use while smallholdings and side-projects are more likely to have a small commercial element.
ehnto 6y ago
This article resonated with me quite a bit. I very much dislike the fast, throwaway software culture of much software development. A revolving door of technology, platforms and methodology. The first few years you're excited by the pace of learning, and that prospect of new projects is really alluring as it's a new and exciting problem to solve. Eventually you realise everything you pour your heart into only matters for a year or two before it's inevitably thrown away, replaced by the new kids on the block. I can see why VC land can support the irrational churn of technology, and that's fine, hell even entire companies are ephemeral in the startup universe. I think it doesn't make sense for any other kind of project. We shouldn't need to rewrite something every year or two, it should have been built to be a stable platform with boring, fundamental technology from which you can grow the product over years to come.
alixanderwang 6y ago
I quit my job at Google a little over a year ago to work full time on my product. I still don't make near half the salary, but that connection to my users using a product I built is something that, prior to this last year, I didn't know I'd be so attached to. Users message me to appreciate some small look & feel improvements, they leave feedback and I fix things for them, I get excited about a new feature and it brings value to their work. I let them vote on the more experimental ideas. I get happily excited for each new subscription, and it all feels earned, a stark contrast to how I felt about my biweekly paychecks at corporate life. The product [0] launched on HN a year ago, and I've worked on it almost every day since then, and after having reached some threshold of MRR, I've since felt that I can keep working on it forever. Tonight, I'm up late releasing another feature [1]. The motivation to do so feels effortless, as, it's my garden. [0] https://terrastruct.com https://terrastruct.com [1] Sync diagrams with a github repo, ~hacking the README as a presentation tool (https://github.com/terrastruct-bot/Demo https://github.com/terrastruct-bot/Demo)
- thejosh 6y ago
  Wow. This looks extremely slick, and the landing page is awesome. Going to give it a whirl.
- huzaif 6y ago
  Wow! This product is making my day. Great job. I am still hacking around on it. I would like to sign-up as a team, though I only have need for 3 seats.
  - alixanderwang 6y ago
    Thanks! If you send me an email (in my profile), happy to make that work for you
- koeng 6y ago
  terrastruct looks really awesome! Been looking for something like that for a while, I think I’ll test it out. The landing page is very well put together.
- 6y ago
digaozao 6y ago
It made me remember of this game, simcompanies. From what I understood, it is made by a single developer and some help. It has this feeling of community among the players and him included that is really cool. And no pushing hard to buy things. https://www.simcompanies.com/ https://www.simcompanies.com/
chrischapman 6y ago
For gardening buffs (just in case you were wondering) the granadilla vine is also known as the passion fruit. Which was kind of appropriate for building something you're passionate about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passiflora_ligularis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passiflora_ligularis
- villasv 6y ago
  Maracujá is its name in Brazil and coincidentally, is said to have “calming” properties. We have a saying here that passion fruit juice will make you relax - or sleep if you’re already relaxed. Not sure if there’s scientific basis for this or just an ancient meme.
k__ 6y ago
Sounds good to me. I always wanted to do my own product, but I had the impression all startup communities sucked in some kind of way. I want to go slow and if I didn't get an MVP out of the door in the first few months, I don't care. I have a flexible job as a freelancer on the side and can wait. Still, it's hard to find a likeminded community...
FriedrichN 6y ago
I like the idea of being a custodian of the things I do and have done, which sort of align with the idea in the article. Of course I don't always have the opportunity to do so with clients pushing for new features and so on. But when I can, I do. It makes the things I make just a little better every time by adding small new features or making small improvements on existing ones. No one asked for them, but they are nonetheless thankful that I did them. I don't think I could work in an environment that would not let me do those things, there's very little that makes me more unhappy than producing garbage work and 'shutting up'.
inferense 6y ago
This strongly resonates with the idea of a pure authentic self-expression. In part, bigger companies and the system in general take this away, because of their underlying incentives - “scale quick and break things” instead of just “have fun building something valuable”. I think this is what every side project / idea should be about in long term because that’s how it starts anyway, it’s just transformed into this artificial process full of vanity metrics later on.
sanmak 6y ago
Firstly, Very well written and articulated. i wish to have people like these around me while I'm WFH. bearblog.dev is great, minimalistic, bang on with usages. Just signed up. Will be using it for sure and will definitely have some contributions as well. Few ideas to chip in. Kudos great work.
m_st 6y ago
Working at an ISV developing, providing and supporting software for a specific industry. This is how I work. I love the product, the customer contact and immediate feedback and like that I can put most of my ambitions into it. Happy gardening!
wombatmobile 6y ago
Pangloss, who was as inquisitive as he was argumentative, asked the old man what the name of the strangled Mufti was. ‘I don’t know,’ answered the worthy man, ‘and I have never known the name of any Mufti, nor of any Vizier. I have no idea what you’re talking about; my general view is that people who meddle with politics usually meet a miserable end, and indeed they deserve to. I never bother with what is going on in Constantinople; I only worry about sending the fruits of the garden which I cultivate off to be sold there.’ Having said these words, he invited the strangers into his house; his two sons and two daughters presented them with several sorts of sherbet, which they had made themselves, with kaimak enriched with the candied-peel of citrons, with oranges, lemons, pine-apples, pistachio-nuts, and Mocha coffee… – after which the two daughters of the honest Muslim perfumed the strangers’ beards. ‘You must have a vast and magnificent estate,’ said Candide to the turk. ‘I have only twenty acres,’ replied the old man; ‘I and my children cultivate them; and our labour preserves us from three great evils: weariness, vice, and want.’ Candide, on his way home, reflected deeply on what the old man had said. ‘This honest Turk,’ he said to Pangloss and Martin, ‘seems to be in a far better place than kings…. I also know,” said Candide, “that we must cultivate our garden.’ -- Voltaire, Candide
- tmountain 6y ago
  Commenting, so I can revisit this later. Great excerpt!
  - sethjgore 6y ago
    likewise!
  - alpha_squared 6y ago
    You can favorite comments if you click on their timestamp.
    - tmountain 6y ago
      Wow, 11 years on this site, and I'm just learning this... Thanks!
foxhop 6y ago
Hey I'm also into permaculture and treating my products like gardens. I see you are running blogbear I wonder if we could partner somehow. I'm the founder and creator of Remarkbox a hosted comment service for static sites. I just made Remarkbox free: https://www.remarkbox.com/remarkbox-is-now-pay-what-you-can.html https://www.remarkbox.com/remarkbox-is-now-pay-what-you-can.... All are welcome to use the service!
huzaif 6y ago
I too "cultivate my own garden". Like the "Turk" in Vaoltaire's Candide, working on my product (garden) insulates me from the wants and worries projected by todays internet. Here is my garden: https://www.gorelo.io/ https://www.gorelo.io/
eecks 6y ago
I love this analogy. I had a conversation with someone (a non-tech person) recently. Them: What are you doing? Me: Making a website Them: Why? Me: Just am.
mmacedo_en 6y ago
For twenty years I tried to build products and sell them to others, to no avail. "Marketing is the problem" - I always told myself about my failures. I still have one product up from those days. FileSculptor is a file converter used by non developers to automate CSV to XLSX conversion. What was the last time I used it myself? Excluding testing before new releases or support issues, never. I decided that my next product should be something I really care about. Something that scratches my on itch and that I would use on a daily basis. I should be the first one to find bugs on my product, not my users. I always kept track of my expenses, but was less so with my budget. I used a spreadsheet and would update if once or twice a month. So I decided to create an app with the budget and expense tracking I wanted. I always had lots of ideas of how it should work, how it would forecast transactions automatically from a detailed budget and how it would deal with credit card purchases, hitting the budget on the month they'd appear of the credit card statement. It would support credit card purchases with installments, something always missing in the apps I tried. I created Pleke to be the personal finance app I always wanted, and use it on a daily basis. For the last six months its been the only source of truth about my finances. At my day job I work on a product used by others. I'm grateful and want it to work well because it pays my bills. But with my app, its quite a different relationship. I'm always proud when I input data in it and it works as designed. When something breaks, I want to fix it ASAP. I have a text file with planned features for version 2, version 3, 4 and 5. Pleke is the app I want to work on for the next ten years, even if others do not value it as much as I do. "Marketing is the problem" - I will tell myself, to their loss. Be the first user of your product! A person who takes good care of their garden will work on it and admire it on a daily basis. So should we with our products.
fukmbas 6y ago
Anyone else tired of the word 'product'?
brightball 6y ago
Great perspective IMO.
jakeadler 6y ago
This was really awesome! I think that many people are so focused on success we don't take the time to enjoy our garden! The best part of building is the being so hands on, especially when it comes to talking with consumers and hearing about problems, or even building out the product and putting your special touch on it. I will make sure to enjoy my garden this week, and observe how I help it grow to ensure what I'm doing is truly sustainable!
segmondy 6y ago
Some of my products are experiments. Just experiments, I want to check if some thing is possible. Some of my products are challenges. I don't know how to do it, and just wish to know if I can figure it out. Some are personal needs. I need something, I can't find a solution that meets my need, I solve it. Some are art and therapeutic like gardening. Working on them gives me joy and relaxes me. Some are business. The intent is to make money. I'm sure folks can find many ways to think about their products, at the end of the day, it's all in your head.
justusthane 6y ago
This is a little off-topic, but related: I've done hobbyist webdev for a long time, but only HTML/CSS/JS/PHP. I have an idea for a web app I'd like to build--would you folks recommend Rails or Django, and why? I have very little background with either Ruby or Python, so the language choice itself isn't a deciding factor for me (although I have slightly more interest in Python).
- raunometsa 6y ago
  You're been working with PHP, why do you want to switch to Rails or Django?
  - justusthane 6y ago
    Because it's been a very long since I've even done anything with PHP, and I'd like to play with one of the frameworks. I'm much more interested in learning Python or Ruby than I am in learning PHP.
    - raunometsa 6y ago
      Oh, cool – I understand! My first thought was that if you're already familiar with a language like PHP why not use that to build a webapp.
- yellowapple 6y ago
  Both are pretty similar to one another, basically filling the same niche, just with different languages. So if you're more interested in Python, then by learning Django you probably won't be missing out on much w/ Rails (and given their similarities, learning one makes it easier to learn the other).
randito 6y ago
I'm a fan of Maggie Appleton's Digital Garden idea: https://maggieappleton.com/garden https://maggieappleton.com/garden It's a "ideas as a garden" metaphor, not necessarily a "product as a garden" metaphor, but the sentiment is the same.
aogaili 6y ago
https://medium.com/@cmaitchison/are-you-a-software-gardener-f79eba5b7fb7 https://medium.com/@cmaitchison/are-you-a-software-gardener-...
- Naac 6y ago
  I finally have words to describe the kind of programming I like to do in my spare time! Thank you for linking to that article.
raunometsa 6y ago
I'm too feeling like this more and more. I get an email every time a new user signes up and I will manually check how they are doing on my site. If I see they may need my help, I email them (people really love this kind of proactive help).
colochef 6y ago
This is beautiful. Permaculture influencing developers (and vice versa for that matter) will be key for the future of this planet.
rascoro1 6y ago
I love this analogy. I enjoy programming as a hobby and as a result, I like taking my time creating a product that I enjoy using. My garden is currently 2 open-source projects focused on developer efficiency and ease of use. dev-utils: A simple publicly facing website (that can be run locally) that can do simple encoding, decoding, hashing, pretty printing, etc. All of these are performed using javascript so data is exfiltrated to third-parties. I found that I was using utilities online and I did not trust them so I decided to make my own. You can find the website here: https://utils.andrewcopeland.dev/ https://utils.andrewcopeland.dev/ zk: A simple not taking application that is written 100% in bash. It follows the zettelkasten note taking method which implements small notes that can be linked together. All notes are written in markdown files and can be auto-synced to a public or private github. You can find the project here: https://github.com/AndrewCopeland/zettelkasten https://github.com/AndrewCopeland/zettelkasten I only water these projects when I need to and I have no intent on commercializing them. I water them because I like them not because I want to monetize them.

731 points by square_usual 6y ago

Beautifully written && definitely hits home. Putter on, my friend.

A very appealing concept. I hope people doing this succeed in generating sufficient income to make a living. PS: I also like the gardener analogy. It is used elsewhere, too, e.g. the “Gardener-Leader” concept of the US Army. https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/military-review/Archives/English/MilitaryReview_20120831_art009.pdf https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/military-review/Ar...

shoo 6y ago
thank you for sharing the link, very interesting to see a similar idea discussed within another community.

twelvechairs 6y ago

I wish this kind of concept was aspired to by more political parties and countries for their citizens. It seems something that lives only in a small world of the internet for those who achieve it.

ghoomketu 6y ago

I am on the same page with you. But I've also decided to focus all my strength on one thing for the next 5 years just improving it and making it the best product for my customers. Right now it's so easy to make apps with amazing frameworks like Vue and Laravel that anybody can create something in a week or sometimes even a day[1]. We indiehackers are never short of ideas and shiny objects. I too was part of that movement and I created many projects, one or two even won out Product hunt proudct of the day and started making money too. Alas the fame and fortune was short lived because I was just too distracted and never focused on building one thing. I never took the step that is much more important than launching the product. It's the boring day-in and day-out sales and marketing part. The content writing and the lead generation part. The SEO part. The thing that acutally brings in the revenue part. So anytime I have an amazing idea for my next project. I just quietly put in my Google docs and get back to my main focus. I think this is the only thing which will finally help me succeed. [1] https://24hrstartup.com/ https://24hrstartup.com/

tangjurine 6y ago
What is your main project?
- ghoomketu 6y ago
  It's a tool to create videos using just text, called Buzzvid. You can play with the demo here (1). I'm still working on the homepage, tutorials, etc. It's still a month until launch. Don't want to hijack this thread but if you have any feedback, please send it to the email in my HN profile. (1) https://buzzvid.com/members.html https://buzzvid.com/members.html
abraae 6y ago
As long as you select the right product to focus on, that sounds an excellent plan.
- jmathai 6y ago
  I think OP's point is that you have to focus this way to get to the point of knowing if a product is the right one to focus on. Not focusing this way only guarantees that you'll move on before even finding out.

raunometsa 6y ago

Beautiful analogy, Herman!

pmlnr 6y ago

There has been a growing movement around the thought that one's website is their digital garden, for example: https://tomcritchlow.com/2019/02/17/building-digital-garden/ https://tomcritchlow.com/2019/02/17/building-digital-garden/

ljsocal 6y ago

love the gardening analogy. Interesting thing I learned from gardening is how plants can frequently benefit from neglect. This also applies to non-plant initiatives.

raunometsa 6y ago
Interesting! Like, leave your plants alone and let them live? (while still occasionally watering them?)

the_cat_kittles 6y ago

i think of it like a shop too. you just kind of fuck around making your tools better, goofing off, accumulating knowledge and stuff... and slowly become useful

m12k 6y ago

I struggle with balancing the urge to putter like the author puts it, with doing "expansionistic" things like marketing or building features that are valuable to new customers rather than existing ones. The "correct" business analysis will say the business gets much more out of new acquisition channels than micro-optimizing the product further, that I shouldn't fall into the "build it and they will come" mentality. But my first instinct will always be to want to just create the best possible product for my existing customers - it's what brings me joy, and it's really hard for me to designate any suboptimal state of the product as "good enough for now" and focus on acquisition instead. For now I try to balance it by alternating doing one or the other in each sprint - that way I never neglect puttering completely, but I also force myself not to do it exclusively like I'd probably do if I just based the decision on personal motivation.

kevsim 6y ago
I'd say if you have existing customers, you're already past most companies with a "built it and they will come" mentality. Most of those fail to ever acquire real users.
plumsempy 6y ago
I agree with you and I will add my own tint to it: I do this to push myself to grow and move forward and then lie back and do what's comfortable and familiar. Rinse and repeat.

yonisto 6y ago

Hits home! One of these days I'll join you and have my own garden.

equality_1138 6y ago

Love the garden analogy in software, especially when faced with complex systems that can't easily be managed by rigid IT project management styles. Was reminded of another short piece going way back to 2007: https://signalvnoise.com/posts/591-brainstorm-the-software-garden https://signalvnoise.com/posts/591-brainstorm-the-software-g...

LeonB 6y ago
You did well to retrieve that one from the memory banks! Must’ve left an impression. I think I read it too.
- equality_1138 6y ago
  His book, Rework, is what got me interested in his writings. I guess the short article left a mark mainly because it reflected ideas that I enjoyed from the book

abinaya_rl 6y ago

Love this analogy. I feel like it's intended to me. I've been part of this Indiehacker movement since last 2 years building Remote Leaf[1]. Sometimes I worry too much when I get 2 churns in a day and happy next day when I get 1 new customer. I hate these process. Instead of trying to be like growth at all costs, I need to follow your strategy. Just help people. Just improve the product. Just do the gardening. [1] - https://remoteleaf.com https://remoteleaf.com

dmje 6y ago

Lovely post, and a great idea. I personally very much like the idea of not scaling - and in fact have done this for 10 years with our (still tiny) digital agency. We could have chosen to take on staff many times but instead opt for a lifestyle business where I can hang out and look at the sea and be with my wife and kids. In building products, my biggest issue to date feels like it is that I rarely bring anything to fruition - but actually this article helped me with that. It really highlighted how it's ok to incrementally push things along, get to a couple of launches just for your own satisfaction, and maybe make a little bit of cash - but you don't have to have any aspiration to "make it big". Thanks for posting :-)

iechoz6H 6y ago

Does he mean `potter`?

malobre 6y ago
"Putter" is an alternative spelling.
erwincoumans 6y ago
Potter is for the majority, putter for the happy few :)

yesenadam 6y ago

> This is my garden, and I intend to putter. I was about about to correct that use of "putter" as a typo, but it seems it's a USAism. Never seen that before. I'd always thought machines/engines putter, gardeners potter. I put it to the super-accurate Purported Google Results Test: putter in my garden - 7 million potter in my garden - 142 million putter around - 9 million potter around - 363 million putter about - 49 million potter about - 581 million Although when I put on a USA accent, there's not very much difference between my "potter" and "putter", maybe that's something to do with "putter" apparently being the US spelling.

elliotec 6y ago
The writer is from South Africa, as mentioned in the post. "Putter about" is definitely not a USAism, it's an English expression used throughout the anglophone world that can be spelled "putter" or "potter," meaning the same thing. I've only heard it pronounced "putter" personally. The stats are interesting!
- yesenadam 6y ago
  Yeah you're right. "Puttering about", with that sense of a machine chugging along, seems a different thing to pottering. Pottering in a garden seems more like patiently tinkering with something than continually moving from place to place.
- dagw 6y ago
  "putter" or "potter," meaning the same thing. I don't think they mean the same in British English. My motorboat "putters about the lake" while I "potter about in my garden". But I could be wrong.
  - jfk13 6y ago
    I would have assumed "putter" (in this sense) is onomatopoeic, from the sound of a small engine running slowly. "Potter", OTOH, comes from a word for poking or prodding at the ground (hence appropriate for gardening). (I suppose with the right kind of ride-on mower, it's possible to "putter about the garden" with appropriate sound effects!) Checking OED citations, though, it seems the "putter" form (as a variant of "potter", distinct from the sound of an engine "puttering") does have a similar history (both go back to the 1820s). Still, I'd agree that "potter about the garden" is by far the more common usage.

simplecto 6y ago

What a nice sentiment, and one I am completely on board with. I've likened my "digital puttering" to my father whiling away the hours in the garage during my childhood. Some hammering, some grinding, and my mother occasionally taking out a cup of tea. And to build on that there was a cool video recently about a forensic pathologist in Houston who makes kitchen knives. He's not scaling, but it seems that it is a hobby that he loves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPSlfz65h8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPSlfz65h8

regulation_d 6y ago

Love the length of this post. more interesting than what could be said in a tweet, but didn’t belabor his best points. Excellent piece.

elliotec 6y ago

I love this and I aspire to eventually, if I come out of the grinder with any ambition, drive, or passion left, do something similar. I abhor big corpratism, and love the way software can be independent and disconnected from it, if not usually in practice. I deeply admire Basecamp's style of "you don't need VC money, keep it small, keep building something useful that gets you paid." I want that someday but someday is not this day. I'm not much of an idea guy. I can build stuff. I can get really passionate about how things "should be" and implement process and infrastructure to get there. But whatever "it" is, just hasn't come to me yet. I long to be an indiehacker but for all the supposedly wrong reasons. I want to putter but don't know where to get the right seeds to be puttering for.

qwantim1 6y ago
Is Basecamp really the example to aspire to? Being the developer of Rails and ActiveRecord and fostering and milking that would be the software equivalent of Peter Frampton, and I mean that in the most positive way. I think we know that we’re not all going platinum. This article was about just “working on the song(s)” for the enjoyment of it, whatever that may involve, or that’s the way I took it.
- playpause 6y ago
  > the software equivalent of Peter Frampton Can you clarify this? Just curious. Heard of him, but no idea what you mean.
  - x4j91 6y ago
    I think the sentiment is that Basecamp is no Led Zeppelin. In that they perhaps haven't achieved the record breaking, Unicorn level growth that many startups strive for. But perhaps that's OK for them? They've got some great tunes, a loyal following, and can still put on a fantastic show. They're superstars by any definition. Peter Frampton had a standout, influential "live" album and an innovative style of playing that will forever be remembered. Led Zeppelin had a series of standout albums and hit songs spanning close to a decade, spawning Unicorn level sales, crowds and generational fandom that held influence on rock and roll for 40+ years. But the band members of Zeppelin eventually succumbed to the excesses of their success. They split up after some really dark days. The scope and size of their success wasn't long term manageable on a personal level. But their legacy remains. Whereas Frampton is still playing small live venues today!!!! He's still rocking out.

mwidell 6y ago

This resonates with me. I get the same experience from my youtube channel - making a modest but sufficient income to make a living, talking directly to my "users" every day - hearing their appreciation and the stories on how my videos directly changed their life. So enjoyable.

nexthash 6y ago

This post almost reads like a manifesto of the digital gardening movement that was showcased on HN a few months back [1], with some indiehackers sprinkled in. Just a small space of your own on the Internet to cultivate your thoughts/projects, outside the gigantic walls and rigidity of Big Tech platforms. There's even a subreddit [2] for them! I like to think of software projects as belonging in three categories - massive high growth products (big tech), more niche low growth products, and side-projects. Digital gardens and small software projects with a band of loyal users seem to go between side-project and niche product. They are a welcome escape from the noise of big platforms, so I hope this developer/Internet trend catches on across the web. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24996780 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24996780 [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/DigitalGardens/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DigitalGardens/

jwr 6y ago

This is how I approach my SaaS business. Long-term sustainability, enjoyable development using technologies I like, dealing with smart and nice customers. Caring for the app.

erikstarck 6y ago

This is a beautiful analogy. One of my favourite quotes is from Jane McGonical: "we are as human beings designed to do hard, meaningful work". If you enjoy gardening, it doesn't feel like work. You do it because it's... meaningful. Ikigai is that perfect spot in which the work you enjoy doing also creates value from someone else. You are in the zone, doing what you love. This concept, together with the one about optimising your area of luck that was posted a few days ago, are all you really need to craft a successful - and joyful - career.

benjaminjosephw 6y ago

Where are there online communities for people into this kind of tech sub-culture? Most Indie Hacker type communities seem to eventually attract a critical mass of "Hustle Boys" and most startup communities tend to be dismissive of anything that doesn't have hyper-growth potential. It makes sense that a large number of tech entrepreneurs live between these two extremes. Where do they hang out?

erwinh 6y ago
I think you can find it in the crossover towards more artistic/design/science focussed communities. Generative art, data visualisation etc. Of course there are hustlers there as well but to me it does feel to be more about the creativity, techniques, ideas.
new_here 6y ago
There are various communities around the web that all have their own personalities. HN, /r/programming and Twitter are the biggest and most active but also most cynical. Lobste.rs (https://lobste.rs/ https://lobste.rs/) is almost purely tech focussed. Dev.to is very (overly?) friendly but it's hard to find substance among the noise. Indie Hackers which you've alluded to, does what it says on the tin but also attracts those hustler types. The great thing about the internet is that if you think it's missing something, you can build it! I've been working on my own tech community called Able (https://able.bio https://able.bio) in my spare time for about 3 years now. I'd like it to be an intersection of software, hardware and business but with less cynicism and self-hype of other places. Just a place to appreciate the merits of human ingenuity. You're welcome to come hang out there if you like. But yeah, if anyone knows of any other communities I'd also be interested to check them out. I feel like a bit of variety would be nice at the moment.
ehnto 6y ago
I decided to start a Discord for it, it's been on my mind for a while. I'm not interested in the VC moonshot culture, and frankly am not in the location for it anyway. I also don't care for SEO marketing ploys and hustle bullshit. The community values I would want in a community like that are: * A focus on building products that meet real world problems * Pragmatism, stability and longevity in your products * Discussions about bootstrapping with real customers * Investment can be useful but it shouldn't be a stand in for a real business model * Realistically these are businesses, money is a real factor, but no get rich quick schemes, we're just trying to get sensibly rich slowly * No narcissistic hustle bullshit, no marketing ploys

erwinh 6y ago

Really feeling this, got so much work done last year by just continuously smoothing out all kinds of small little details in my parametric design software tools. Which individually are all quite insignificant but now it really starts to feel like an ecosystem (garden!) of functions, classes & objects working together in concert for beautiful effects.

erwinh 6y ago
Literally used it to make digital grass as well: https://twitter.com/hoogerwoord/status/1348394004413620224?s=20 https://twitter.com/hoogerwoord/status/1348394004413620224?s...

afarrell 6y ago

This is one thing that has made the transition to a larger company so hard for me. In smaller team, you can spend a bit of time cleaning up the codebase or tooling and know that investment will compound via increased velocity. When you share a codebase with 200 others, trying to get anything tidy and readable is such a yak-shaving exercise, you feel like the main character from https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/ https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/ This is the actual emotional reason why I am now such a big fan of microservices (or rather, moderately-sized services): I want my own garden to tend alongside a moderately-sized team.

square_usual 6y ago

Disclaimer: I posted this link, but I am not the author of the blog.

m-i-l 6y ago

This was a good read. I've read about personal websites being digital gardens, and describe my own as "more of a functional vegetable patch than an ornamental floral garden". However, I've not seen bootstrapped side-projects compared to gardens, and like the analogy between gardening and farming, where gardening is more fun and less scalable than farming (but that being a good thing in this context). I wonder if a smallholding might be a more appropriate analogy for side-projects though, given gardens and personal websites are usually for personal use while smallholdings and side-projects are more likely to have a small commercial element.

ehnto 6y ago

This article resonated with me quite a bit. I very much dislike the fast, throwaway software culture of much software development. A revolving door of technology, platforms and methodology. The first few years you're excited by the pace of learning, and that prospect of new projects is really alluring as it's a new and exciting problem to solve. Eventually you realise everything you pour your heart into only matters for a year or two before it's inevitably thrown away, replaced by the new kids on the block. I can see why VC land can support the irrational churn of technology, and that's fine, hell even entire companies are ephemeral in the startup universe. I think it doesn't make sense for any other kind of project. We shouldn't need to rewrite something every year or two, it should have been built to be a stable platform with boring, fundamental technology from which you can grow the product over years to come.

alixanderwang 6y ago

I quit my job at Google a little over a year ago to work full time on my product. I still don't make near half the salary, but that connection to my users using a product I built is something that, prior to this last year, I didn't know I'd be so attached to. Users message me to appreciate some small look & feel improvements, they leave feedback and I fix things for them, I get excited about a new feature and it brings value to their work. I let them vote on the more experimental ideas. I get happily excited for each new subscription, and it all feels earned, a stark contrast to how I felt about my biweekly paychecks at corporate life. The product [0] launched on HN a year ago, and I've worked on it almost every day since then, and after having reached some threshold of MRR, I've since felt that I can keep working on it forever. Tonight, I'm up late releasing another feature [1]. The motivation to do so feels effortless, as, it's my garden. [0] https://terrastruct.com https://terrastruct.com [1] Sync diagrams with a github repo, ~hacking the README as a presentation tool (https://github.com/terrastruct-bot/Demo https://github.com/terrastruct-bot/Demo)

thejosh 6y ago
Wow. This looks extremely slick, and the landing page is awesome. Going to give it a whirl.
huzaif 6y ago
Wow! This product is making my day. Great job. I am still hacking around on it. I would like to sign-up as a team, though I only have need for 3 seats.
- alixanderwang 6y ago
  Thanks! If you send me an email (in my profile), happy to make that work for you
koeng 6y ago
terrastruct looks really awesome! Been looking for something like that for a while, I think I’ll test it out. The landing page is very well put together.
6y ago

digaozao 6y ago

It made me remember of this game, simcompanies. From what I understood, it is made by a single developer and some help. It has this feeling of community among the players and him included that is really cool. And no pushing hard to buy things. https://www.simcompanies.com/ https://www.simcompanies.com/

chrischapman 6y ago

For gardening buffs (just in case you were wondering) the granadilla vine is also known as the passion fruit. Which was kind of appropriate for building something you're passionate about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passiflora_ligularis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passiflora_ligularis

villasv 6y ago
Maracujá is its name in Brazil and coincidentally, is said to have “calming” properties. We have a saying here that passion fruit juice will make you relax - or sleep if you’re already relaxed. Not sure if there’s scientific basis for this or just an ancient meme.

k__ 6y ago

Sounds good to me. I always wanted to do my own product, but I had the impression all startup communities sucked in some kind of way. I want to go slow and if I didn't get an MVP out of the door in the first few months, I don't care. I have a flexible job as a freelancer on the side and can wait. Still, it's hard to find a likeminded community...

FriedrichN 6y ago

I like the idea of being a custodian of the things I do and have done, which sort of align with the idea in the article. Of course I don't always have the opportunity to do so with clients pushing for new features and so on. But when I can, I do. It makes the things I make just a little better every time by adding small new features or making small improvements on existing ones. No one asked for them, but they are nonetheless thankful that I did them. I don't think I could work in an environment that would not let me do those things, there's very little that makes me more unhappy than producing garbage work and 'shutting up'.

inferense 6y ago

This strongly resonates with the idea of a pure authentic self-expression. In part, bigger companies and the system in general take this away, because of their underlying incentives - “scale quick and break things” instead of just “have fun building something valuable”. I think this is what every side project / idea should be about in long term because that’s how it starts anyway, it’s just transformed into this artificial process full of vanity metrics later on.

sanmak 6y ago

Firstly, Very well written and articulated. i wish to have people like these around me while I'm WFH. bearblog.dev is great, minimalistic, bang on with usages. Just signed up. Will be using it for sure and will definitely have some contributions as well. Few ideas to chip in. Kudos great work.

m_st 6y ago

Working at an ISV developing, providing and supporting software for a specific industry. This is how I work. I love the product, the customer contact and immediate feedback and like that I can put most of my ambitions into it. Happy gardening!

wombatmobile 6y ago

Pangloss, who was as inquisitive as he was argumentative, asked the old man what the name of the strangled Mufti was. ‘I don’t know,’ answered the worthy man, ‘and I have never known the name of any Mufti, nor of any Vizier. I have no idea what you’re talking about; my general view is that people who meddle with politics usually meet a miserable end, and indeed they deserve to. I never bother with what is going on in Constantinople; I only worry about sending the fruits of the garden which I cultivate off to be sold there.’ Having said these words, he invited the strangers into his house; his two sons and two daughters presented them with several sorts of sherbet, which they had made themselves, with kaimak enriched with the candied-peel of citrons, with oranges, lemons, pine-apples, pistachio-nuts, and Mocha coffee… – after which the two daughters of the honest Muslim perfumed the strangers’ beards. ‘You must have a vast and magnificent estate,’ said Candide to the turk. ‘I have only twenty acres,’ replied the old man; ‘I and my children cultivate them; and our labour preserves us from three great evils: weariness, vice, and want.’ Candide, on his way home, reflected deeply on what the old man had said. ‘This honest Turk,’ he said to Pangloss and Martin, ‘seems to be in a far better place than kings…. I also know,” said Candide, “that we must cultivate our garden.’ -- Voltaire, Candide

tmountain 6y ago
Commenting, so I can revisit this later. Great excerpt!
- sethjgore 6y ago
  likewise!
- alpha_squared 6y ago
  You can favorite comments if you click on their timestamp.
  - tmountain 6y ago
    Wow, 11 years on this site, and I'm just learning this... Thanks!

foxhop 6y ago

Hey I'm also into permaculture and treating my products like gardens. I see you are running blogbear I wonder if we could partner somehow. I'm the founder and creator of Remarkbox a hosted comment service for static sites. I just made Remarkbox free: https://www.remarkbox.com/remarkbox-is-now-pay-what-you-can.html https://www.remarkbox.com/remarkbox-is-now-pay-what-you-can.... All are welcome to use the service!

huzaif 6y ago

I too "cultivate my own garden". Like the "Turk" in Vaoltaire's Candide, working on my product (garden) insulates me from the wants and worries projected by todays internet. Here is my garden: https://www.gorelo.io/ https://www.gorelo.io/

eecks 6y ago

I love this analogy. I had a conversation with someone (a non-tech person) recently. Them: What are you doing? Me: Making a website Them: Why? Me: Just am.

mmacedo_en 6y ago

For twenty years I tried to build products and sell them to others, to no avail. "Marketing is the problem" - I always told myself about my failures. I still have one product up from those days. FileSculptor is a file converter used by non developers to automate CSV to XLSX conversion. What was the last time I used it myself? Excluding testing before new releases or support issues, never. I decided that my next product should be something I really care about. Something that scratches my on itch and that I would use on a daily basis. I should be the first one to find bugs on my product, not my users. I always kept track of my expenses, but was less so with my budget. I used a spreadsheet and would update if once or twice a month. So I decided to create an app with the budget and expense tracking I wanted. I always had lots of ideas of how it should work, how it would forecast transactions automatically from a detailed budget and how it would deal with credit card purchases, hitting the budget on the month they'd appear of the credit card statement. It would support credit card purchases with installments, something always missing in the apps I tried. I created Pleke to be the personal finance app I always wanted, and use it on a daily basis. For the last six months its been the only source of truth about my finances. At my day job I work on a product used by others. I'm grateful and want it to work well because it pays my bills. But with my app, its quite a different relationship. I'm always proud when I input data in it and it works as designed. When something breaks, I want to fix it ASAP. I have a text file with planned features for version 2, version 3, 4 and 5. Pleke is the app I want to work on for the next ten years, even if others do not value it as much as I do. "Marketing is the problem" - I will tell myself, to their loss. Be the first user of your product! A person who takes good care of their garden will work on it and admire it on a daily basis. So should we with our products.

fukmbas 6y ago

Anyone else tired of the word 'product'?

brightball 6y ago

Great perspective IMO.

jakeadler 6y ago

This was really awesome! I think that many people are so focused on success we don't take the time to enjoy our garden! The best part of building is the being so hands on, especially when it comes to talking with consumers and hearing about problems, or even building out the product and putting your special touch on it. I will make sure to enjoy my garden this week, and observe how I help it grow to ensure what I'm doing is truly sustainable!

segmondy 6y ago

Some of my products are experiments. Just experiments, I want to check if some thing is possible. Some of my products are challenges. I don't know how to do it, and just wish to know if I can figure it out. Some are personal needs. I need something, I can't find a solution that meets my need, I solve it. Some are art and therapeutic like gardening. Working on them gives me joy and relaxes me. Some are business. The intent is to make money. I'm sure folks can find many ways to think about their products, at the end of the day, it's all in your head.

justusthane 6y ago

This is a little off-topic, but related: I've done hobbyist webdev for a long time, but only HTML/CSS/JS/PHP. I have an idea for a web app I'd like to build--would you folks recommend Rails or Django, and why? I have very little background with either Ruby or Python, so the language choice itself isn't a deciding factor for me (although I have slightly more interest in Python).

raunometsa 6y ago
You're been working with PHP, why do you want to switch to Rails or Django?
- justusthane 6y ago
  Because it's been a very long since I've even done anything with PHP, and I'd like to play with one of the frameworks. I'm much more interested in learning Python or Ruby than I am in learning PHP.
  - raunometsa 6y ago
    Oh, cool – I understand! My first thought was that if you're already familiar with a language like PHP why not use that to build a webapp.
yellowapple 6y ago
Both are pretty similar to one another, basically filling the same niche, just with different languages. So if you're more interested in Python, then by learning Django you probably won't be missing out on much w/ Rails (and given their similarities, learning one makes it easier to learn the other).

randito 6y ago

I'm a fan of Maggie Appleton's Digital Garden idea: https://maggieappleton.com/garden https://maggieappleton.com/garden It's a "ideas as a garden" metaphor, not necessarily a "product as a garden" metaphor, but the sentiment is the same.

aogaili 6y ago

https://medium.com/@cmaitchison/are-you-a-software-gardener-f79eba5b7fb7 https://medium.com/@cmaitchison/are-you-a-software-gardener-...

Naac 6y ago
I finally have words to describe the kind of programming I like to do in my spare time! Thank you for linking to that article.

raunometsa 6y ago

I'm too feeling like this more and more. I get an email every time a new user signes up and I will manually check how they are doing on my site. If I see they may need my help, I email them (people really love this kind of proactive help).

colochef 6y ago

This is beautiful. Permaculture influencing developers (and vice versa for that matter) will be key for the future of this planet.

rascoro1 6y ago

I love this analogy. I enjoy programming as a hobby and as a result, I like taking my time creating a product that I enjoy using. My garden is currently 2 open-source projects focused on developer efficiency and ease of use. dev-utils: A simple publicly facing website (that can be run locally) that can do simple encoding, decoding, hashing, pretty printing, etc. All of these are performed using javascript so data is exfiltrated to third-parties. I found that I was using utilities online and I did not trust them so I decided to make my own. You can find the website here: https://utils.andrewcopeland.dev/ https://utils.andrewcopeland.dev/ zk: A simple not taking application that is written 100% in bash. It follows the zettelkasten note taking method which implements small notes that can be linked together. All notes are written in markdown files and can be auto-synced to a public or private github. You can find the project here: https://github.com/AndrewCopeland/zettelkasten https://github.com/AndrewCopeland/zettelkasten I only water these projects when I need to and I have no intent on commercializing them. I water them because I like them not because I want to monetize them.