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Amazon will pay nearly $62m over “outrageous” practice of pocketing driver tips

40 points by 0xmohit 6y ago

sharemywin 6y ago
wonder if the other companies are next?
polka_haunts_us 6y ago
I'm a little confused even after reading the article. What drivers does this refer to? Package delivery drivers? How does one go about tipping said drivers outside of handing them physical money? It's nothing I've ever seen on Amazon.
- redwall_hp 6y ago
  Packages and groceries. I've never seen one, because it's more common in more densely populated areas. Basically, they're cutting costs by avoiding UPS and FedEx when they can, using a quasi-Uber model The earnings details are in the FAQ: https://flex.amazon.com/faq https://flex.amazon.com/faq It does seem fairer than DoorDash and Uber, since there's a guaranteed minimum hourly rate, though you're still on the hook for self-employmenmt tax and vehicular depreciation.
  - ilaksh 6y ago
    Except it wasn't fair at all, because they stole the tips. And no, steal is not hyperbole here.
    - ratsmack 6y ago
      >And no, steal is not hyperbole here. I thought theft was a crime... shouldn't the DOJ be prosecuting something here?
      - ilaksh 6y ago
        Worker exploitation has some degree of legal protection since it's intrinsic to our culture. I think that shouldn't be the case but the fact that these people don't go to jail proves it in my mind.
  - willxinc 6y ago
    I think my deliveries are made by Amazon directly in most cases, and I've never seen an option to tip. Only time I've seen it is for Amazon Fresh orders.
ndiscussion 6y ago
Is that all? Not sure what else I can add to this comment, but that's comically low, and a slap in the face to our new underclass.
- danudey 6y ago
  The article comments that the FTC doesn't have the authority to issue fines in cases like these; all they can do is require the workers to be paid back what they owe, with no punitive measures at all.
- LorenPechtel 6y ago
  Yeah, a clear indication that we need to punish even first time offenders a lot more than just pay what you should have. As it stands a business has no reason not to cheat the first time.
brutal_chaos_ 6y ago
Oh hey, I dropped a quarter the other day too! /s Sarcasm aside, we really need to up fines. These are pathetic.
iudqnolq 6y ago
I had been assuming that the FTC chose to give small fines. I found it interesting this article clarified they aren't allowed punitive damages in this sort of circumstance. > In a joint statement on Tuesday, FTC Acting Commissioner Rebecca Slaughter, a Democrat, and Commissioner Noah Phillips, a Republican, called on Congress to give the FTC the power to create gig-economy rules that more clearly explain what type of behavior is unlawful. The pair also are requesting that Congress give the FTC power to issue large civil penalties to first-time offending businesses as a further deterrent to engaging in schemes like Amazon’s, which FTC commissioners called “outrageous.” Amazon will only open itself to such a civil penalty if it violates the terms of this settlement. > Slaughter said giving the FTC power to issue penalties for first-time offenses would create a powerful “one-two punch,” along with the agency’s existing ability to recoup lost wages for workers.
- danudey 6y ago
  In other words, the current rules means that you should try to screw your workers maximally but surreptitiously, because the only penalty for being caught is having to give the money back like it's no big deal.
  - harry8 6y ago
    Or in different (better?) words. Theft from employees is not illegal and carries no consequences. Employee theft from employers as compensation for having their property stolen, while being more justified on any moral basis, is illegal and can send the employee to jail. It's theft. A person did it. Another approved it. All of them are guilty of it and should not be able to hide behind liability limitation for investors to commit crime. Membership of a criminal syndicate should not be any kind of legal defence "I gave the proceeds to the boss." Criminal prosecution of individuals like any other criminal prosecution for theft.
    - esyir 6y ago
      Full agreement, but I think danudey's version captures it better than yours as it better captures the current ruleset incentivizing bad behavior. Screw them: Get stuff -> Net Positive Screw them, get caught: Return stuff -> Net 0 Don't Screw them: Gain nothing -> Net 0 Given these rules, a rational agent would pick to screw them over 100% of the time.
maximente 6y ago
reminder that managers and engineers promoted, developed, and shipped these changes at all of the companies listed in the article, knowing exactly how this change was going to affect people working in these roles. pathetic.
- musicale 6y ago
  This absolutely. There is so much software that implements malicious and unethical business practices: cheating employees, deceiving customers, violating privacy, etc.. Certainly designing and developing such systems violates the codes of ethics of professional societies such as the ACM and IEEE. Every time I encounter such a piece of software or read a story like this HN post, I think "who on earth would think that writing software like this is even remotely OK?" It's disappointing that there seem to be so many ethical lapses in our profession.
- bzb6 6y ago
  It’s only pathetic if you assume everybody in those organisations and roles share your political views but they didn’t have the balls to act on them. Whilst it’s possible that they don’t care or they disagree with you.
  - Twixes 6y ago
    That doesn't make their actions any less immoral. Acting immorally can still be condescendingly called pathetic.
Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
Must be a slow day on HN today. Usually when its discovered that a company is stealing tips to subsidize base pay, there are at least half a dozen commenters defending the practice by pointing out that wait staff in restaurants are paid the same way in most states.
anm89 6y ago
This title should be fixed.
freddymilkovich 6y ago
i drive flex. Amazon made the changes pretty clear back in 2016 and I wasn't happy with the changes but I understood them. it did decrease our pay by like $3 per block but what can you do? nothing. Definitely gonna claim on this. ty OP.

40 points by 0xmohit 6y ago

wonder if the other companies are next?

I'm a little confused even after reading the article. What drivers does this refer to? Package delivery drivers? How does one go about tipping said drivers outside of handing them physical money? It's nothing I've ever seen on Amazon.

redwall_hp 6y ago
Packages and groceries. I've never seen one, because it's more common in more densely populated areas. Basically, they're cutting costs by avoiding UPS and FedEx when they can, using a quasi-Uber model The earnings details are in the FAQ: https://flex.amazon.com/faq https://flex.amazon.com/faq It does seem fairer than DoorDash and Uber, since there's a guaranteed minimum hourly rate, though you're still on the hook for self-employmenmt tax and vehicular depreciation.
- ilaksh 6y ago
  Except it wasn't fair at all, because they stole the tips. And no, steal is not hyperbole here.
  - ratsmack 6y ago
    >And no, steal is not hyperbole here. I thought theft was a crime... shouldn't the DOJ be prosecuting something here?
    - ilaksh 6y ago
      Worker exploitation has some degree of legal protection since it's intrinsic to our culture. I think that shouldn't be the case but the fact that these people don't go to jail proves it in my mind.
- willxinc 6y ago
  I think my deliveries are made by Amazon directly in most cases, and I've never seen an option to tip. Only time I've seen it is for Amazon Fresh orders.

ndiscussion 6y ago

Is that all? Not sure what else I can add to this comment, but that's comically low, and a slap in the face to our new underclass.

danudey 6y ago
The article comments that the FTC doesn't have the authority to issue fines in cases like these; all they can do is require the workers to be paid back what they owe, with no punitive measures at all.
LorenPechtel 6y ago
Yeah, a clear indication that we need to punish even first time offenders a lot more than just pay what you should have. As it stands a business has no reason not to cheat the first time.

brutal_chaos_ 6y ago

Oh hey, I dropped a quarter the other day too! /s Sarcasm aside, we really need to up fines. These are pathetic.

iudqnolq 6y ago

I had been assuming that the FTC chose to give small fines. I found it interesting this article clarified they aren't allowed punitive damages in this sort of circumstance. > In a joint statement on Tuesday, FTC Acting Commissioner Rebecca Slaughter, a Democrat, and Commissioner Noah Phillips, a Republican, called on Congress to give the FTC the power to create gig-economy rules that more clearly explain what type of behavior is unlawful. The pair also are requesting that Congress give the FTC power to issue large civil penalties to first-time offending businesses as a further deterrent to engaging in schemes like Amazon’s, which FTC commissioners called “outrageous.” Amazon will only open itself to such a civil penalty if it violates the terms of this settlement. > Slaughter said giving the FTC power to issue penalties for first-time offenses would create a powerful “one-two punch,” along with the agency’s existing ability to recoup lost wages for workers.

danudey 6y ago
In other words, the current rules means that you should try to screw your workers maximally but surreptitiously, because the only penalty for being caught is having to give the money back like it's no big deal.
- harry8 6y ago
  Or in different (better?) words. Theft from employees is not illegal and carries no consequences. Employee theft from employers as compensation for having their property stolen, while being more justified on any moral basis, is illegal and can send the employee to jail. It's theft. A person did it. Another approved it. All of them are guilty of it and should not be able to hide behind liability limitation for investors to commit crime. Membership of a criminal syndicate should not be any kind of legal defence "I gave the proceeds to the boss." Criminal prosecution of individuals like any other criminal prosecution for theft.
  - esyir 6y ago
    Full agreement, but I think danudey's version captures it better than yours as it better captures the current ruleset incentivizing bad behavior. Screw them: Get stuff -> Net Positive Screw them, get caught: Return stuff -> Net 0 Don't Screw them: Gain nothing -> Net 0 Given these rules, a rational agent would pick to screw them over 100% of the time.

maximente 6y ago

reminder that managers and engineers promoted, developed, and shipped these changes at all of the companies listed in the article, knowing exactly how this change was going to affect people working in these roles. pathetic.

musicale 6y ago
This absolutely. There is so much software that implements malicious and unethical business practices: cheating employees, deceiving customers, violating privacy, etc.. Certainly designing and developing such systems violates the codes of ethics of professional societies such as the ACM and IEEE. Every time I encounter such a piece of software or read a story like this HN post, I think "who on earth would think that writing software like this is even remotely OK?" It's disappointing that there seem to be so many ethical lapses in our profession.
bzb6 6y ago
It’s only pathetic if you assume everybody in those organisations and roles share your political views but they didn’t have the balls to act on them. Whilst it’s possible that they don’t care or they disagree with you.
- Twixes 6y ago
  That doesn't make their actions any less immoral. Acting immorally can still be condescendingly called pathetic.

Sohcahtoa82 6y ago

Must be a slow day on HN today. Usually when its discovered that a company is stealing tips to subsidize base pay, there are at least half a dozen commenters defending the practice by pointing out that wait staff in restaurants are paid the same way in most states.

anm89 6y ago

This title should be fixed.

freddymilkovich 6y ago

i drive flex. Amazon made the changes pretty clear back in 2016 and I wasn't happy with the changes but I understood them. it did decrease our pay by like $3 per block but what can you do? nothing. Definitely gonna claim on this. ty OP.