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As a Tesla owner, I tried using a third-party charging station once just to see what it was like. I ended up leaving and going to the closest supercharger inste

As a Tesla owner, I tried using a third-party charging station once just to see what it was like. I ended up leaving and going to the closest supercharger instead because of how laughably bad the experience was. Tesla has done a phenomenal job making it easy and convenient to own and drive an EV. Other automakers are trying to catch up on range and acceleration, but if they really want to compete they need to consider the entire user experience.

mapmap 6y ago
What was bad about it?
- djrogers 6y ago
  Not OP, but 3rd party chargers often: 1) require a new app to be installed 2) require you to create an account and add your credit card info 3) are broken 4) work, but charge slower than they should
  - filoleg 6y ago
    While a minor thing, I wanted to add to this, even when everything works properly and on the first try with third party chargers, you gotta pull out your phone and open the app (or use it as an Apple Wallet card, if the charging station supports it) to activate the charger and start the whole charging process. As opposed to superchargers, where you literally just plug the charger in and that's it, everything is handled for you.
  - gameswithgo 6y ago
    Who the heck thought an app was a good idea? Complete non starter for me.
    - secabeen 6y ago
      It's twofold. One, they want some way to notify you back when your charge session is nearing completion, or if you get unplugged unexpectedly. Two, they want the data on your usage individually identified, so they can sell/mine it.
      - gameswithgo 6y ago
        Ok that is a good point, optional app integration is sensible.
      - waiseristy 6y ago
        They really should just call your phone, I can't think of a single other long-wait activity that forces you to install spyware. Oil changes, doctor / dentist appointments, furniture delivery, etc. They all just give you a call
        BoorishBears 6y ago
        Just because you want a call doesn't mean everyone else does. I'd much rather have an app notify me than an automated phone call, I (and most people I know) probably wouldn't even pick it up. - I can uninstall an app, I can't ungive someone my phone number.
        waiseristy 6y ago
        To each their own! I can not stand having random apps installed on my phone. They all eventually turn into notification spamming spyware. I get spam phone calls all the time anyway, have the charging station call / text me and leave me a message instead
        secabeen 6y ago
        Many people don't want to give their SMS-capable number to a random charging station in another state. I don't mind giving my number to my doctor, but a charging station is a different risk profile.
        djrogers 6y ago
        Frankly I’d rather install an app on my iPhone than give the company my phone number. At least with an app I can deny location, contacts, and all other access.
        waiseristy 6y ago
    - jsight 6y ago
      I think they are optional in general, but often more reliable. These locations are unstaffed and often directly exposed to the elements. The cardreaders don't seem to hold up well.
      - Symbiote 6y ago
        They should be able to accept contactless cards only, without a PIN. Plenty of contactless-card vending machines (drinks etc) and ticket machines (train tickets etc) in Asia and Europe cope with the weather.
    - blowfish721 6y ago
      They really should have a card reader option. Personally I don’t mind an app if it was a unified app across all chargers. Having to download a new app, enter card info, personal info etc just to use a charger once while away from your regular area is super annoying.
  - kurthr 6y ago
    Yes, unless you're using the newest and rarest non-superchargers, you're looking at 8-14kW vs 50-150kW. Also there are 3 or more different ones (so one app isn't enough) and because they take so long to charge people often park for extended (e.g. 4+ hours) periods. They border on useless, unless they happen to be where you work or live, if what you're looking for is a quick fill-up.
- cogman10 6y ago
  Here's the tesla experience. Pull into charge, plug in the car, start charging. Here's the competition. Pull into charge, plug in the car, Maybe swipe a credit if you are lucky and start charging. Likely, you need to install a 3rd party app first then you need to feed that app your CC information and then you need to tell that app a station number to activate. You better hope there's good internet because if there's not you might not be able to charge. Further, for stations that do take a credit card or tap and pay. It's like 50/50 on whether or not it will actually go through. Usually it takes a crazy long time to actually validate the card number before charging (Like, I've waited 10 minutes before for a charge to start!).
  - slg 6y ago
    Then if and when you finally get through all that, you are likely charging at a much slower speed than a Supercharger. Using a Supercharger is even easier and more seamless than refueling with gas. Other EV chargers are generally much worse than gas. I hope they get there eventually, but right now it is a night and day difference in my experience.
    - cogman10 6y ago
      Agreed. I don't care too much about the charge time or cost myself as even with the hiked rates, charging is generally comparable or cheaper than a gas fill up (which only strikes on road trips for me). What I really care about is how much time I'm interacting with the charge equipment. It sucks to be standing outside in the freezing cold waiting for your card to maybe get accepted only to find out that for some dumb reason the machine decides to decline it (forcing you to use an app which you likely don't have). There's no reason all EV charging can't be a better experience than gas charging. There's already a data line established when you plug in (Both CCS and Chademo have data lines) so it should be beyond trivial for there to be a standard payment scheme (It should have existed from the start).
      - caf 6y ago
        ISO 15518-2 does specify a "Plug and Charge" scheme. Tritium's chargers support this at least.
- jmpman 6y ago
  Many times the third party chargers are broken, or vandalized. Some have screens which are completely unreadable after a few years in the sun. They’re sited in inconvenient spots, such as mall parking lots, which have nothing open after 9pm. That being said, the Tesla charging network is far from perfect. Check to see how many US National Parks you can practically visit with a Tesla. Carlsbad Caverns? Nope. North Rim of the Grand Canyon? Barely.
  - whoisburbansky 6y ago
    Apparently this reddit post from three years ago doesn't think so: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/6oq1wb/an_updated_list_of_us_national_parks_and_whether/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/6oq1wb/an_upda.... Looks like only four National Parks aren't (as of three years ago) within round trip distance of a Supercharger, and Carlsbad isn't one of them.
    - gameswithgo 6y ago
      Some of those that are near the mid 250s would be risky, especially as the car is likely to be loaded down with above average mass, maybe some bikes or a roof luggage unit hurting aero. Guess you could drive slow.
      - ghaff 6y ago
        Furthermore, people often don't drive to a national park, drive around a bit, and head back. When I visit Death Valley, I probably drive hundreds of miles within the park.
        dliff 6y ago
        I was in Death Valley last weekend. Drove there from SF with Model Y, ended up renting an ICE car to explore the park, especially since we were staying 1.5 hours from the center of the park. I saw several Teslas around the park, and I think it's doable if you only want to visit say 1 or 2 locations, but without a Supercharger in the middle of the park, you will be limited and won't have the flexibility to see everything. The resort in the middle of the park has 4 J1772 chargers, which would help if you were staying in the park overnight, but we were simply doing day trips.
- pornel 6y ago
  Chargers have the same quality and reliability as a free public WiFi. Often broken, slow, difficult to activate, and nobody cares. The market is fragmented. Chargers are run by different companies. Very often you can't even use them, because they don't accept card payments, and expect you to have a membership, or at best use their custom shitty app.
mohaine 6y ago
I have an acquaintance that had just bought his 4th Leaf (2019) and decided to drive it on a 400ish mile road trip to a conference. It took him over 10 hours. When he got to the next charger they 1) Often only had 1 high output charger. 2) The one they had was often either in use, or broken leading to very long charge times. This combined with the less than stellar driver assist the would never get any better for the life of car made him almost instantly regret sticking with the leaf. He owned it for about 2 months before trading it in on new Model 3.
- stcredzero 6y ago
  When I went for my test drive of a Model 3, I noted that there was a Chevy Bolt being traded in for a Model 3.
  - bdamm 6y ago
    Yeah. The Bolt is a nice driving car, but the charging rate is a joke compared to any Tesla.
    - cbm-vic-20 6y ago
      The Supercharger is definitely faster, but a Bolt on a CCS DC Type-3 charger is slower, but in the same league. On the other hand, the "user experience" of every Type-3 charger I've seen is terrible. The chargers are often in inconvenient places, the super thick cables are very short, and then you've got to try a couple of times to get the charger and the car to talk to each other and get the payment sorted out. Tesla wins on this hands down, and it's not even close. Oddly enough, the Type-2 experience isn't nearly as bad. Other than requiring 6+ hours to charge...
      - bdamm 6y ago
        Chevy Bolt with optional fast charging: 55kW Tesla Model 3 base model: 170kW So not really the same league at all.
    - Shebanator 6y ago
1234letshaveatw 6y ago
Does your user experience rating take into account interoperability (or lack thereof of e.g superchargers) and service center and replacement part availability?
- jsight 6y ago
  I'm going to guess it does and is graded against his own personal experience with other vehicles.
  - 1234letshaveatw 6y ago
    I'm going to guess it doesn't- as the supercharging network is a closed platform which is a problem for any vehicle other than a Tesla
    - djrogers 6y ago
      Which is a net benefit for a tesla owner. Less competition for charging space, plus less abuse of the chargers = better experience for a tesla owner.
- mynameisvlad 6y ago
  Why would a Tesla owner care about interoperability? The supercharger network is clearly a selling point for Tesla. Why do they need to allow access to other manufacturers? Why would they even want to do that? I mean, this whole article is about how Tesla invested in a charging infrastructure that is leaps and bounds above all competitors. The whole point is that Tesla decided that was a requirement before scaling up production and it is a key reason why people choose their EVs over the competition.
  - netsharc 6y ago
    Huh, true, if Tesla allowed other cars to use the Supercharger, then the chances of a Tesla owner arriving to a fully occupied Supercharger location (full of all kinds of car brands) would increase quite a lot. But if Elon was serious about what he said about climate, and wanting to turn the car industry electric, he should do exactly that, so that more people get electric cars, regardless of the brand.
jsight 6y ago
To be fair, now (8 years after the first superchargers), Electrify America supports plug and charge. Because of this, the experience with the Mach-E is really close to that of supercharging. There's still a gap, but its much smaller now and EA is even ahead in some areas.
- hnburnsy 6y ago
  See my other post in this thread specifically about the Mustang and Electrify America. Looks like they have a way to go.
  - jsight 6y ago
    Yeah, the recent cannonball run in a Taycan (Search Out of Spec Motoring if you want to see the details) had some similar issues. In particular, the Mach-E seems to be struggling with low charge rates. However, that review is a press vehicle and was technically preproduction. I have yet to see someone knowledgeable going through the details with an actual customer delivered vehicle.
    - Reason077 6y ago
      > "Yeah, the recent cannonball run in a Taycan (Search Out of Spec Motoring if you want to see the details) had some similar issues." However, despite those issues, they were still able set the electric cannonball record in the Taycan, beating the previous record (set by the same guys in a Tesla Model 3) by nearly an hour! That's because the Taycan charges much faster on EA's 350 kW chargers than a Tesla does on a typical Tesla supercharger. (It might be a different story if Tesla had more of the new faster "V3" superchargers, but there are only a few of those on the Cannonball route).
  - thatfrenchguy 6y ago
    It's pretty obvious looking at their current volume of charging that ElectrifyAmerica is clearly in beta mode right now, targeting mostly enthusiasts. I've done ~40-50 sessions with them and I never got stranded, but I've had to move the car to the next charger like half the time. Good thing they're putting 4 to 8 stalls at each station.
fiftyfifty 6y ago
I'm really shocked that other manufacturers haven't invested in more infrastructure. Toyota and Honda pushed hydrogen fuel cell vehicles for years, they could have easily accelerated adoption of the tech by investing in refueling infrastructure. Now all that money they invested in fuel cell cars looks to be wasted as they both are playing catchup with battery electric vehicles, mostly because of Tesla.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Legacy automakers never thought they were going to have to build and sell EVs at scale until Tesla forced their hand (and also demonstrated to governments that it was time to schedule new combustion vehicle sales bans), hence why they didn't invest in their own charging networks (which cost Tesla over half a billion dollars and counting [1] [2]). [1] https://supercharge.info/changes https://supercharge.info/changes [2] https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map
- Animats 6y ago
  Toyota and Honda pushed hydrogen fuel cell vehicles for years Toyota wanted someone else to pay for the infrastructure. California has 27 hydrogen stations up today.[1] There's not much interest in building more. [1] https://m.cafcp.org/ https://m.cafcp.org/
  - Hypx 6y ago
    https://www.slashgear.com/navistar-and-gm-reveal-hydrogen-truck-plan-with-an-infrastructure-fix-27656983/ https://www.slashgear.com/navistar-and-gm-reveal-hydrogen-tr... Some of you guys are seriously stuck in the 2010s. Hydrogen is coming a big way and the old talking points are outdated.
    - cycrutchfield 6y ago
      Any year now
      - 6y ago
starfallg 6y ago
In the UK, there are several different networks now and they offer a good enough experience. Polar Network (now BP Pulse) has many more locations than Tesla, and their rapid chargers are located in convenient locations, such as restaurants and hotels or on a side street in the city center. Cost-wise, the rapid charger price is just 60% of the Tesla Supercharger per kwh.
- mprev 6y ago
  My experience has been different. Electric Highway (Ecotricity) has a high rate of broken chargers. When you find one, they seem to charge a minimum fee of £12 regardless of how much you use. Most chargers are slow. Either 7kw or 11kw is common; 20kw is considered rapid in some places. The fragmentation of networks means you need at least four crap apps just to get around and then you’ll probably need to install a new app if you’re going somewhere new. What you call convenient locations are a mixed blessing. Spaces for chargers are often ICEd in my experience because they’re in busy car parks. I just want to pull up, plug in, and tap my credit card. The charge networks seem to go out of their way to make using the service painful.
  - starfallg 6y ago
    >I just want to pull up, plug in, and tap my credit card. That's exactly the way that all Polar rapid chargers work, and there's a lot of them scattered around now. The rate is lower if you join as a member though.
    - mprev 6y ago
      Oh great; looking forward to trying them. For obvious reasons, I've hardly been anywhere for around 10 months now so I haven't come across any Polar chargers yet.
cronix 6y ago
One thing I like about Nio is they are using swappable batteries[1] that can be swapped out in about 3-5 minutes, which is comparable, or likely faster, than filling (from empty) at a gas station depending on tank size. It also leaves Nio in charge of keeping the batteries up to date so your car won't lose value over time like a 10 year old car with degraded batteries that won't hold as much of a charge and take longer and longer to charge over time as the battery degrades and cost a heck of a lot to swap out. It costs about $16k[2] to get a Model 3 battery replaced. Nio is able to sell cars for about $10k cheaper by using swappable batteries. Batteries as a Service. [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33670482/nio-swappable-batteries-lease/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33670482/nio-swappable-ba... Edit, added link: [2] https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/it-costs-nearly-2416000-to-replace-a-tesla-model-3-battery-pack/ar-BB1d5GsR https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/it-costs-nearly-...
- Jonanin 6y ago
  This is a pretty neat idea, but it seems insanely expensive for the network operator. Not only would having a large inventory of spare batteries be very capital intensive, but the swapping stations themselves look complex and expensive too. I wonder if Nio even has the capital required to do this at a large enough scale.
- secabeen 6y ago
  It's going to be very interesting to see what kinds and levels of fraud they experience with those batteries. Generally, companies don't lend or rent assets valued at $15k+ to individuals without a lot of legal and contractual protections (see your average rental car contract.) Were I them, I would worry a lot about battery wear-and-tear, undeclared damage, and even internal component substitution.
  - mschuster91 6y ago
    > Were I them, I would worry a lot about battery wear-and-tear, undeclared damage, and even internal component substitution. A car battery can definitely carry its own anti tamper mechanism and an LTE modem to report issues. Besides... a car battery isn't actually worth 15k$ to a thief. Not much to part out (PCBs are custom, casing ain't gonna fetch much in terms of scrap metal, and there's not much of a market for used li-ion 18650's with the exception of ecig hobbyists so swapping them out for lower quality isn't worth the effort), if it's an exclusively rent model there is no market for a stolen pack. Wear and tear also isn't that much of an issue as Tesla proved.
samch 6y ago
To add to this, there is even more going on behind the scenes in the Tesla Supercharging scenario that makes it so incredible effective. A lot of it has to do with charger use optimization. As sales of Teslas outpace growth of the Supercharger network, optimization of the chargers is increasingly important. Much like Apple, the fact that Tesla has fully integrated the entire ecosystem (car, mobile app, Supercharger, payments) means that they can also optimize the end-to-end process. For starters, the in-car display shows where the nearest Superchargers are and automatically plans your trip to incorporate them. After a recent update, you can now see the real-time number of open spaces. When the Tesla has its next navigation destination as a Supercharger, the car will automatically begin conditioning the battery pack (heating it, I believe) to allow the battery chemistry to more readily accept the pending influx of current. While the car is charging, the owner has constant visibility and notification of progress via the mobile app. This helps the owner plan to be back at the charger when the process has completed. Finally, Tesla has implemented monetary penalties for leaving a charged Tesla in charging spot after a certain grace period. I suppose that what I’m trying to illustrate here is that the overall level of optimization of the charging experience might just remain unique to Tesla, enabling them to scale their user base more efficiently than competitive, non-integrated solutions.
- caf 6y ago
  An update last year supposedly means that Teslas will also precondition the battery when a third-party DC fast charger is the destination, but I've never seen this work in my country (maybe it works in the US?).
dingaling 6y ago
> Tesla has done a phenomenal job making it easy and convenient to own and drive an EV. As they say, your mileage may vary. There are a total of three (3) Tesla charger stations in all of Ireland. That's one location per 2.3 million people. For any locals wondering: Ballacolla, Birdhill, Castlebellingham.
- war1025 6y ago
  I just looked and near me (Iowa) the nearest charging stations are over an hour away. It looks like they are located near the major truck stops going through the state. That makes sense I guess, but you don't pass those places unless you are traveling long distance. I see a fair number of Teslas around town, but I have to imagine they all just charge at home. I know of a single charging station in the area and it supports either one or two cars from what I remember.
  - caf 6y ago
    That's generally the optimal way to use a BEV - plug in overnight at home each night for your usual driving around town (just like you do your phone), use the fast charger sites on long distance road trips, and try to stay at destinations with overnight charging available. Charging at home should be both more convenient and cheaper than making a weekly trip to a local charger (people without off-street parking might have no alternative, though).
GuB-42 6y ago
It is not that Tesla is good, it is that their competitors are terrible. I knew that Tesla is all integrated, you don't even realize you are paying. But I naively expected competition to work like a gas station: insert your credit card to start charging, or, if there is a counter, you can also go there and pay cash. But no, it doesn't work like that. There are competing standards, you have to download apps and all of that nonsense. And why should automakers deal with charging stations? Automakers have to come up with a standard plug, and it looks like we are almost there with CCS2. Now it is up to the charging stations to provide a better experience. Gas cars and electric appliances do it right, why does it have to be worse for electric cars?
qubitcoder 6y ago
Indeed. This is illustrated vividly here: https://youtu.be/hA_B7qPyUDA?t=1120 https://youtu.be/hA_B7qPyUDA?t=1120 Two people engage in a "charging race" to see who can charge the most in 15 minutes. The contenders, a Tesla Model Y and the 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E. The non-Tesla experience is almost comically sad.
- trhway 6y ago
  >The non-Tesla experience is almost comically sad. Right now, after watching that video, went to the Ford site to order Mach-E (not really order, mainly to get config and price). Fail. Right on the first step there - on attempt to choose a dealer (minor point here is why i have to choose one now?) - webpage produces "Internal Error" and couldn't proceed further. The traditional car makers just don't get it. That is why Tesla is a $T company.
itsoktocry 6y ago
>trying to catch up on range There are a couple cars in the price range of the Model 3 that have better range, combined with the fact Tesla is known to exaggerate the range of their vehicles.
m463 6y ago
I had a leaf (24kwh battery). It was very inexpensive ~ $7500 @ 4 years old. Part was the subsidies that brought the new price down, part was fear about the batteries. You can't buy many cars with ~ all the options after 4 years for 1/4 of list price. It was charged at home and mostly just used around town. It was perfect for ~ 25 miles of daily driving. I did take it on longer journeys and charge on the way, but think 30 miles from home, not 200 miles. It took careful planning and a little faith in "plan B" I had to get accounts with 3 charging providers: - chargepoint - their model seems to be they sell the chargers and run them for the property owner. Many companies run private chargers for their employees this way. They do mostly L2 chargers at malls, restaurants, etc. THey don't have many fast L3 chargers on their network. They are very well run and their chargers are reliable. - evgo - they own the chargers and install them. They usually put 2 fast L3 chargers + a row of slower ~6kw L2 chargers at places like whole foods and walmart. They are very reliable, and good for trips. Sometimes you will have to wait for someone to finish charging. - blink - frankly, they suck. I haven't had much problem with their slower L2 chargers, but finding an L3 charger was like playing fallout scrounging bombed out infrastructure. Seriously, their chargers were always broken and undependable. They're owned by the property owners but somehow never fixed. I haven't used my accounts in 2 years, and things might have changed. I know there are a few more entrants now. Telsa meanwhile makes travel like a "normal car" possible via LOTS of overlapping details: - large batteries - travel radius is larger - charging station location - usually within radius - charging station sizing - most stations have a LOT of chargers - fast charging - you travel more and sit less, also less contention for chargers - navigation - nav system will plan your route for you, including charging Note that there is also a "secondary" tesla network of slow(er) chargers that doesn't get mentioned much. Hotels and other places have installed these "destination chargers" that tesla has provided for free. Slower usually means 6kw, but I've heard some do higher rates like 18kw.
Rafert 6y ago
Counterpoint: I use the Circuit Electrique network (owned by Hydro Quebec) and their infrastructure has been great. Level 2 curbside chargers are found throughout the city and they app works fine. There's a few super chargers outside Montreal but nothing worth driving out of the way for. While digging in to how their network is built, I found out it seem their infrastructure is from AddEnergie, a Quebec company that's also the provider for the eCharge (New Brunswick) and the BC Hydro EV. They have their own consumer brand for home chargers and public charging network across Canada called FLO. They seem to be growing fast (closed their series C last year), their product seems to be pretty good, so it doesn't have to be all terrible.
- websites22 6y ago
  >And the app works fine The Tesla standard is so high that if your customers have to use app, you've already failed.
  - adrr 6y ago
    I have to use the Tesla app to figure out if there is free superchargers available at 3 supercharger stations near me. ChargePoint chargers at my work just require me scan a card in my phones digital wallet.
    - redindian75 6y ago
      the car knows where chargers are... no need to check Tesla App.
    - natch 6y ago
      The other reply already mentioned that the car knows where the chargers are. But it's even better than that; the car knows how many are available as well, updated in real time. As of a couple software updates ago.
    - monadic3 6y ago
      What do you mean by "digital wallet"? I've never heard this term before.
innagadadavida 6y ago
Here is what I liked about Tesla chargers: 1. The short cable is good as it keeps careless people from entangling and making a cable mess. 2. Compared to the chademo plug, the Tesla plug is light and small and is less likely to get damaged if dropped accidentally. 3. When you press the button on the plug, the car charging port opens automatically. Also the charging port closes automatically when unplugged. 4. If port is broken, most Tesla owners have the etiquette to signal this to the next user by keeping the plug out. What would be better is to show this status like a light (visibly from 20ft at night). 5. They show chargers right in the car display map and tell you how many are free to use no need for another app. These are all nice small touches. The biggest mess the EV folks have made is having 5 different types of poorly designed chargers and plugs and current capacity. Having one type of plug and making them all fast will go a long way to better EV adoption. The oil companies have done much better and this is a shame.
natch 6y ago
I have made a point of trying other networks and they definitely don't hold a candle to the Supercharger network ease of use, simplicity, speed, coverage, etc. There are some really choice UI travesties on display in some of the non-Tesla chargers. * Buttons that appear on screen and pulsate enticingly, but even though it's a touch screen, you discover later that you were supposed to press the corresponding hardware button below the screen, not the button shown on the screen, but there's no instruction to that effect. * Laggy buttons that seem to not respond, then react later and draw a new button in the same place, with a different action, just as your finger comes down and taps intending to try again with the button that just disappeared. * The UI leads you through an entire flow (Electrify America) on the hardware, and then at the end it says "please unplug and start over then plug in again" where other stations are "please plug in first and then start on the UI". * Or you have an account already with a linked credit card and you swipe your phone, and the station shows on the screen that it recognizes your account, and you go through the entire flow and it says at the end: "Sorry, this station can only be enabled through the app." Please use the app to start the charging. Dude, I just swiped my phone and it has the app right here and the screen told me to proceed on the charger station screen. To be fair, once you get through this rigamarole a couple times and learn the quirks, most people can use the system, and these third party chargers have sometimes been really useful. But yeah one is thankful to have more options than just those bad ones. By contrast, Tesla charging is you take the plug off the holder and plug it in. Done. Still it's nice to have the other chargers around. Like free slow charging at Target… if I spend 30 minutes there, I get 12 miles or so, sure, I'll take it. When choosing an EV you should look at the Venn diagram of what chargers will be available to you, and choose one that has the best options… Tesla is firmly on top in such a comparison, with essentially a superset of almost all charger types and locations open for use. Would love to see them start selling a Tesla CCS adapter too but that would be almost an embarrassment of options.
fossuser 6y ago
What’s wild to me is that the legacy car companies watched tesla do this over a ten year period and basically did nothing except mock them during that time. Even now the legacy companies are held up by few EV models, bad range, bad software, bad dealership experience, and bad charging networks. Tesla may be overvalued, but I have little faith the existing companies will survive this transition. It feels like they’re all RIM when the iPhone launched, mocking it and then suddenly talking about how the competition is getting a little heated. If Apple also gets in its even more hopeless for legacy companies. It’s also wild none of them took Tesla up on the offer to use their superchargers - I think it would have been worth nearly any price.
- helsinkiandrew 6y ago
  To be fair, there's always been a lot of niche 'technologies' in vehicle propulsion - hydrogen, fuel cells, LPG, that may or may not have been the future. It's taken a leap in battery technology and worries about climate change at the same time to make EV's the 'right choice'. It's very hard for large companies to change direction (car companies have a 100 years of momentum behind them). They tend to do so by buying niche players - small car and technology companies that have proven (or nearly proven) themselves. I don't think Tesla is going to be bought up but I wouldn't discount the legacy car and oil companies from surviving. If gas station companies start installing charging stations at every one of their stations the market may look very different.
  - fossuser 6y ago
    Hydrogen fuel cells were a stupid option paraded out repeatedly (usually by legacy companies using it to say EVs were bad) and Tesla said as much at the time. The predictions about battery tech improvements were reasonable ones and publicly made (arguably easy to accept). Legacy companies could fix this in theory, but in practice they wasted ten years and aren’t making the moves necessary today. I’d bet against them.
    - hulitu 6y ago
      > Hydrogen fuel cells were a stupid option paraded out repeatedly (usually by legacy companies using it to say EVs were bad) and Tesla said as much at the time. Hydrogen fuel cells are not a stupid option. Charging is here the stupid option. When 50000 houses need each 20KWh each night at almost the same time they will destroy the local power lines which were not designed for this. > The predictions about battery tech improvements were reasonable ones and publicly made (arguably easy to accept). Well battery improvements shall have come earlier (in 100 years there was almost no improvement). Even now the dream of having your battery to save your solar power is still mostly a dream. > Legacy companies could fix this in theory, but in practice they wasted ten years and aren’t making the moves necessary today. I’d bet against them. Legacy companies want profits which are rising, to please the stakeholders.
Melting_Harps 6y ago
> As a Tesla owner, I tried using a third-party charging station once just to see what it was like. I ended up leaving and going to the closest supercharger instead because of how laughably bad the experience was. This really is a night and day difference for people who don't have a charging port at home/work or have to use their cars for long distances. It makes the experience that better, as opposed to having to go to the mall or a shopping center, some of who actually offer free charging in some cases near wholefoods and other upscale shops, and rely on old charging systems that keep you there for hours instead of the 30 min top up you can get on a P95D that is rather convenient on the coasts. I already put my deposit for a Cybertruck but I want to my mom to get a Tesla too so we will be driving to the next SpaceX launch in Vandenburg next month with a FSD and see what she thinks and finally moves away from ICE. I was always a proponent of EV vehicles but what really did me it for me was how quick Tesla rolled out its Supercharging network, that was such an undervalued component in their overall valuation. Having worked in the autos Industry it dawned on me somewhere between 2015 or so that Tesla isn't as much a car company as it is a power company and that their MVP were cars but would gradually transition more and more toward infrastructure for power generations stations, Chamath made the same observation around the same time and echoed his view earlier this year about it, too.
fpoling 6y ago
In Norway one and halve year ago I did 1000km round trip in eGolf. The trip was over mountains and I needed to charge quite a few times. It was not possible to pay with a credit card directly without installing an app. All charging stations offered sms payments but the rate was 20-25% higher than paying with an app. So by the end of the trip I ended up with 4 different apps. Even after installing the app and entering credit card details the experience was bad. One has to enter the charger code which at one place was 4 digits even when there were only 2 chargers. Then sometimes charging required 2-3 attempts to press the start button in the phone. At one time I could not start charging in the phone and called the support. They rebooted the charger, but it still did not help. Eventually they claimed incompatibility with my phone and started charging themselves. 6 months ago I did 750km trip in a rented Tesla. Charging just worked with no need for phone or entering anything and I just received the final bill from the renting company with all the details.
- AntiImperialist 6y ago
  Sounds like Tesla is using dark patterns to disincentivize cars from other manufacturers to use the charging stations. They are asking for regulatory intervention.

mapmap 6y ago

What was bad about it?

djrogers 6y ago
Not OP, but 3rd party chargers often: 1) require a new app to be installed 2) require you to create an account and add your credit card info 3) are broken 4) work, but charge slower than they should
- filoleg 6y ago
  While a minor thing, I wanted to add to this, even when everything works properly and on the first try with third party chargers, you gotta pull out your phone and open the app (or use it as an Apple Wallet card, if the charging station supports it) to activate the charger and start the whole charging process. As opposed to superchargers, where you literally just plug the charger in and that's it, everything is handled for you.
- gameswithgo 6y ago
  Who the heck thought an app was a good idea? Complete non starter for me.
  - secabeen 6y ago
    It's twofold. One, they want some way to notify you back when your charge session is nearing completion, or if you get unplugged unexpectedly. Two, they want the data on your usage individually identified, so they can sell/mine it.
    - gameswithgo 6y ago
      Ok that is a good point, optional app integration is sensible.
    - waiseristy 6y ago
      They really should just call your phone, I can't think of a single other long-wait activity that forces you to install spyware. Oil changes, doctor / dentist appointments, furniture delivery, etc. They all just give you a call
      - BoorishBears 6y ago
        Just because you want a call doesn't mean everyone else does. I'd much rather have an app notify me than an automated phone call, I (and most people I know) probably wouldn't even pick it up. - I can uninstall an app, I can't ungive someone my phone number.
        waiseristy 6y ago
        To each their own! I can not stand having random apps installed on my phone. They all eventually turn into notification spamming spyware. I get spam phone calls all the time anyway, have the charging station call / text me and leave me a message instead
      - secabeen 6y ago
        Many people don't want to give their SMS-capable number to a random charging station in another state. I don't mind giving my number to my doctor, but a charging station is a different risk profile.
      - djrogers 6y ago
        Frankly I’d rather install an app on my iPhone than give the company my phone number. At least with an app I can deny location, contacts, and all other access.
        waiseristy 6y ago
  - jsight 6y ago
    I think they are optional in general, but often more reliable. These locations are unstaffed and often directly exposed to the elements. The cardreaders don't seem to hold up well.
    - Symbiote 6y ago
      They should be able to accept contactless cards only, without a PIN. Plenty of contactless-card vending machines (drinks etc) and ticket machines (train tickets etc) in Asia and Europe cope with the weather.
  - blowfish721 6y ago
    They really should have a card reader option. Personally I don’t mind an app if it was a unified app across all chargers. Having to download a new app, enter card info, personal info etc just to use a charger once while away from your regular area is super annoying.
- kurthr 6y ago
  Yes, unless you're using the newest and rarest non-superchargers, you're looking at 8-14kW vs 50-150kW. Also there are 3 or more different ones (so one app isn't enough) and because they take so long to charge people often park for extended (e.g. 4+ hours) periods. They border on useless, unless they happen to be where you work or live, if what you're looking for is a quick fill-up.
cogman10 6y ago
Here's the tesla experience. Pull into charge, plug in the car, start charging. Here's the competition. Pull into charge, plug in the car, Maybe swipe a credit if you are lucky and start charging. Likely, you need to install a 3rd party app first then you need to feed that app your CC information and then you need to tell that app a station number to activate. You better hope there's good internet because if there's not you might not be able to charge. Further, for stations that do take a credit card or tap and pay. It's like 50/50 on whether or not it will actually go through. Usually it takes a crazy long time to actually validate the card number before charging (Like, I've waited 10 minutes before for a charge to start!).
- slg 6y ago
  Then if and when you finally get through all that, you are likely charging at a much slower speed than a Supercharger. Using a Supercharger is even easier and more seamless than refueling with gas. Other EV chargers are generally much worse than gas. I hope they get there eventually, but right now it is a night and day difference in my experience.
  - cogman10 6y ago
    Agreed. I don't care too much about the charge time or cost myself as even with the hiked rates, charging is generally comparable or cheaper than a gas fill up (which only strikes on road trips for me). What I really care about is how much time I'm interacting with the charge equipment. It sucks to be standing outside in the freezing cold waiting for your card to maybe get accepted only to find out that for some dumb reason the machine decides to decline it (forcing you to use an app which you likely don't have). There's no reason all EV charging can't be a better experience than gas charging. There's already a data line established when you plug in (Both CCS and Chademo have data lines) so it should be beyond trivial for there to be a standard payment scheme (It should have existed from the start).
    - caf 6y ago
      ISO 15518-2 does specify a "Plug and Charge" scheme. Tritium's chargers support this at least.
jmpman 6y ago
Many times the third party chargers are broken, or vandalized. Some have screens which are completely unreadable after a few years in the sun. They’re sited in inconvenient spots, such as mall parking lots, which have nothing open after 9pm. That being said, the Tesla charging network is far from perfect. Check to see how many US National Parks you can practically visit with a Tesla. Carlsbad Caverns? Nope. North Rim of the Grand Canyon? Barely.
- whoisburbansky 6y ago
  Apparently this reddit post from three years ago doesn't think so: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/6oq1wb/an_updated_list_of_us_national_parks_and_whether/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/6oq1wb/an_upda.... Looks like only four National Parks aren't (as of three years ago) within round trip distance of a Supercharger, and Carlsbad isn't one of them.
  - gameswithgo 6y ago
    Some of those that are near the mid 250s would be risky, especially as the car is likely to be loaded down with above average mass, maybe some bikes or a roof luggage unit hurting aero. Guess you could drive slow.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      Furthermore, people often don't drive to a national park, drive around a bit, and head back. When I visit Death Valley, I probably drive hundreds of miles within the park.
      - dliff 6y ago
        I was in Death Valley last weekend. Drove there from SF with Model Y, ended up renting an ICE car to explore the park, especially since we were staying 1.5 hours from the center of the park. I saw several Teslas around the park, and I think it's doable if you only want to visit say 1 or 2 locations, but without a Supercharger in the middle of the park, you will be limited and won't have the flexibility to see everything. The resort in the middle of the park has 4 J1772 chargers, which would help if you were staying in the park overnight, but we were simply doing day trips.
pornel 6y ago
Chargers have the same quality and reliability as a free public WiFi. Often broken, slow, difficult to activate, and nobody cares. The market is fragmented. Chargers are run by different companies. Very often you can't even use them, because they don't accept card payments, and expect you to have a membership, or at best use their custom shitty app.

mohaine 6y ago

I have an acquaintance that had just bought his 4th Leaf (2019) and decided to drive it on a 400ish mile road trip to a conference. It took him over 10 hours. When he got to the next charger they 1) Often only had 1 high output charger. 2) The one they had was often either in use, or broken leading to very long charge times. This combined with the less than stellar driver assist the would never get any better for the life of car made him almost instantly regret sticking with the leaf. He owned it for about 2 months before trading it in on new Model 3.

stcredzero 6y ago
When I went for my test drive of a Model 3, I noted that there was a Chevy Bolt being traded in for a Model 3.
- bdamm 6y ago
  Yeah. The Bolt is a nice driving car, but the charging rate is a joke compared to any Tesla.
  - cbm-vic-20 6y ago
    The Supercharger is definitely faster, but a Bolt on a CCS DC Type-3 charger is slower, but in the same league. On the other hand, the "user experience" of every Type-3 charger I've seen is terrible. The chargers are often in inconvenient places, the super thick cables are very short, and then you've got to try a couple of times to get the charger and the car to talk to each other and get the payment sorted out. Tesla wins on this hands down, and it's not even close. Oddly enough, the Type-2 experience isn't nearly as bad. Other than requiring 6+ hours to charge...
    - bdamm 6y ago
      Chevy Bolt with optional fast charging: 55kW Tesla Model 3 base model: 170kW So not really the same league at all.
  - Shebanator 6y ago

1234letshaveatw 6y ago

Does your user experience rating take into account interoperability (or lack thereof of e.g superchargers) and service center and replacement part availability?

jsight 6y ago
I'm going to guess it does and is graded against his own personal experience with other vehicles.
- 1234letshaveatw 6y ago
  I'm going to guess it doesn't- as the supercharging network is a closed platform which is a problem for any vehicle other than a Tesla
  - djrogers 6y ago
    Which is a net benefit for a tesla owner. Less competition for charging space, plus less abuse of the chargers = better experience for a tesla owner.
mynameisvlad 6y ago
Why would a Tesla owner care about interoperability? The supercharger network is clearly a selling point for Tesla. Why do they need to allow access to other manufacturers? Why would they even want to do that? I mean, this whole article is about how Tesla invested in a charging infrastructure that is leaps and bounds above all competitors. The whole point is that Tesla decided that was a requirement before scaling up production and it is a key reason why people choose their EVs over the competition.
- netsharc 6y ago
  Huh, true, if Tesla allowed other cars to use the Supercharger, then the chances of a Tesla owner arriving to a fully occupied Supercharger location (full of all kinds of car brands) would increase quite a lot. But if Elon was serious about what he said about climate, and wanting to turn the car industry electric, he should do exactly that, so that more people get electric cars, regardless of the brand.

jsight 6y ago

To be fair, now (8 years after the first superchargers), Electrify America supports plug and charge. Because of this, the experience with the Mach-E is really close to that of supercharging. There's still a gap, but its much smaller now and EA is even ahead in some areas.

hnburnsy 6y ago
See my other post in this thread specifically about the Mustang and Electrify America. Looks like they have a way to go.
- jsight 6y ago
  Yeah, the recent cannonball run in a Taycan (Search Out of Spec Motoring if you want to see the details) had some similar issues. In particular, the Mach-E seems to be struggling with low charge rates. However, that review is a press vehicle and was technically preproduction. I have yet to see someone knowledgeable going through the details with an actual customer delivered vehicle.
  - Reason077 6y ago
    > "Yeah, the recent cannonball run in a Taycan (Search Out of Spec Motoring if you want to see the details) had some similar issues." However, despite those issues, they were still able set the electric cannonball record in the Taycan, beating the previous record (set by the same guys in a Tesla Model 3) by nearly an hour! That's because the Taycan charges much faster on EA's 350 kW chargers than a Tesla does on a typical Tesla supercharger. (It might be a different story if Tesla had more of the new faster "V3" superchargers, but there are only a few of those on the Cannonball route).
- thatfrenchguy 6y ago
  It's pretty obvious looking at their current volume of charging that ElectrifyAmerica is clearly in beta mode right now, targeting mostly enthusiasts. I've done ~40-50 sessions with them and I never got stranded, but I've had to move the car to the next charger like half the time. Good thing they're putting 4 to 8 stalls at each station.

fiftyfifty 6y ago

I'm really shocked that other manufacturers haven't invested in more infrastructure. Toyota and Honda pushed hydrogen fuel cell vehicles for years, they could have easily accelerated adoption of the tech by investing in refueling infrastructure. Now all that money they invested in fuel cell cars looks to be wasted as they both are playing catchup with battery electric vehicles, mostly because of Tesla.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
Legacy automakers never thought they were going to have to build and sell EVs at scale until Tesla forced their hand (and also demonstrated to governments that it was time to schedule new combustion vehicle sales bans), hence why they didn't invest in their own charging networks (which cost Tesla over half a billion dollars and counting [1] [2]). [1] https://supercharge.info/changes https://supercharge.info/changes [2] https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map
Animats 6y ago
Toyota and Honda pushed hydrogen fuel cell vehicles for years Toyota wanted someone else to pay for the infrastructure. California has 27 hydrogen stations up today.[1] There's not much interest in building more. [1] https://m.cafcp.org/ https://m.cafcp.org/
- Hypx 6y ago
  https://www.slashgear.com/navistar-and-gm-reveal-hydrogen-truck-plan-with-an-infrastructure-fix-27656983/ https://www.slashgear.com/navistar-and-gm-reveal-hydrogen-tr... Some of you guys are seriously stuck in the 2010s. Hydrogen is coming a big way and the old talking points are outdated.
  - cycrutchfield 6y ago
    Any year now
    - 6y ago

starfallg 6y ago

In the UK, there are several different networks now and they offer a good enough experience. Polar Network (now BP Pulse) has many more locations than Tesla, and their rapid chargers are located in convenient locations, such as restaurants and hotels or on a side street in the city center. Cost-wise, the rapid charger price is just 60% of the Tesla Supercharger per kwh.

mprev 6y ago
My experience has been different. Electric Highway (Ecotricity) has a high rate of broken chargers. When you find one, they seem to charge a minimum fee of £12 regardless of how much you use. Most chargers are slow. Either 7kw or 11kw is common; 20kw is considered rapid in some places. The fragmentation of networks means you need at least four crap apps just to get around and then you’ll probably need to install a new app if you’re going somewhere new. What you call convenient locations are a mixed blessing. Spaces for chargers are often ICEd in my experience because they’re in busy car parks. I just want to pull up, plug in, and tap my credit card. The charge networks seem to go out of their way to make using the service painful.
- starfallg 6y ago
  >I just want to pull up, plug in, and tap my credit card. That's exactly the way that all Polar rapid chargers work, and there's a lot of them scattered around now. The rate is lower if you join as a member though.
  - mprev 6y ago
    Oh great; looking forward to trying them. For obvious reasons, I've hardly been anywhere for around 10 months now so I haven't come across any Polar chargers yet.

cronix 6y ago

One thing I like about Nio is they are using swappable batteries[1] that can be swapped out in about 3-5 minutes, which is comparable, or likely faster, than filling (from empty) at a gas station depending on tank size. It also leaves Nio in charge of keeping the batteries up to date so your car won't lose value over time like a 10 year old car with degraded batteries that won't hold as much of a charge and take longer and longer to charge over time as the battery degrades and cost a heck of a lot to swap out. It costs about $16k[2] to get a Model 3 battery replaced. Nio is able to sell cars for about $10k cheaper by using swappable batteries. Batteries as a Service. [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33670482/nio-swappable-batteries-lease/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33670482/nio-swappable-ba... Edit, added link: [2] https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/it-costs-nearly-2416000-to-replace-a-tesla-model-3-battery-pack/ar-BB1d5GsR https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/it-costs-nearly-...

Jonanin 6y ago
This is a pretty neat idea, but it seems insanely expensive for the network operator. Not only would having a large inventory of spare batteries be very capital intensive, but the swapping stations themselves look complex and expensive too. I wonder if Nio even has the capital required to do this at a large enough scale.
secabeen 6y ago
It's going to be very interesting to see what kinds and levels of fraud they experience with those batteries. Generally, companies don't lend or rent assets valued at $15k+ to individuals without a lot of legal and contractual protections (see your average rental car contract.) Were I them, I would worry a lot about battery wear-and-tear, undeclared damage, and even internal component substitution.
- mschuster91 6y ago
  > Were I them, I would worry a lot about battery wear-and-tear, undeclared damage, and even internal component substitution. A car battery can definitely carry its own anti tamper mechanism and an LTE modem to report issues. Besides... a car battery isn't actually worth 15k$ to a thief. Not much to part out (PCBs are custom, casing ain't gonna fetch much in terms of scrap metal, and there's not much of a market for used li-ion 18650's with the exception of ecig hobbyists so swapping them out for lower quality isn't worth the effort), if it's an exclusively rent model there is no market for a stolen pack. Wear and tear also isn't that much of an issue as Tesla proved.

samch 6y ago

To add to this, there is even more going on behind the scenes in the Tesla Supercharging scenario that makes it so incredible effective. A lot of it has to do with charger use optimization. As sales of Teslas outpace growth of the Supercharger network, optimization of the chargers is increasingly important. Much like Apple, the fact that Tesla has fully integrated the entire ecosystem (car, mobile app, Supercharger, payments) means that they can also optimize the end-to-end process. For starters, the in-car display shows where the nearest Superchargers are and automatically plans your trip to incorporate them. After a recent update, you can now see the real-time number of open spaces. When the Tesla has its next navigation destination as a Supercharger, the car will automatically begin conditioning the battery pack (heating it, I believe) to allow the battery chemistry to more readily accept the pending influx of current. While the car is charging, the owner has constant visibility and notification of progress via the mobile app. This helps the owner plan to be back at the charger when the process has completed. Finally, Tesla has implemented monetary penalties for leaving a charged Tesla in charging spot after a certain grace period. I suppose that what I’m trying to illustrate here is that the overall level of optimization of the charging experience might just remain unique to Tesla, enabling them to scale their user base more efficiently than competitive, non-integrated solutions.

caf 6y ago
An update last year supposedly means that Teslas will also precondition the battery when a third-party DC fast charger is the destination, but I've never seen this work in my country (maybe it works in the US?).

dingaling 6y ago

> Tesla has done a phenomenal job making it easy and convenient to own and drive an EV. As they say, your mileage may vary. There are a total of three (3) Tesla charger stations in all of Ireland. That's one location per 2.3 million people. For any locals wondering: Ballacolla, Birdhill, Castlebellingham.

war1025 6y ago
I just looked and near me (Iowa) the nearest charging stations are over an hour away. It looks like they are located near the major truck stops going through the state. That makes sense I guess, but you don't pass those places unless you are traveling long distance. I see a fair number of Teslas around town, but I have to imagine they all just charge at home. I know of a single charging station in the area and it supports either one or two cars from what I remember.
- caf 6y ago
  That's generally the optimal way to use a BEV - plug in overnight at home each night for your usual driving around town (just like you do your phone), use the fast charger sites on long distance road trips, and try to stay at destinations with overnight charging available. Charging at home should be both more convenient and cheaper than making a weekly trip to a local charger (people without off-street parking might have no alternative, though).

GuB-42 6y ago

It is not that Tesla is good, it is that their competitors are terrible. I knew that Tesla is all integrated, you don't even realize you are paying. But I naively expected competition to work like a gas station: insert your credit card to start charging, or, if there is a counter, you can also go there and pay cash. But no, it doesn't work like that. There are competing standards, you have to download apps and all of that nonsense. And why should automakers deal with charging stations? Automakers have to come up with a standard plug, and it looks like we are almost there with CCS2. Now it is up to the charging stations to provide a better experience. Gas cars and electric appliances do it right, why does it have to be worse for electric cars?

qubitcoder 6y ago

Indeed. This is illustrated vividly here: https://youtu.be/hA_B7qPyUDA?t=1120 https://youtu.be/hA_B7qPyUDA?t=1120 Two people engage in a "charging race" to see who can charge the most in 15 minutes. The contenders, a Tesla Model Y and the 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E. The non-Tesla experience is almost comically sad.

trhway 6y ago
>The non-Tesla experience is almost comically sad. Right now, after watching that video, went to the Ford site to order Mach-E (not really order, mainly to get config and price). Fail. Right on the first step there - on attempt to choose a dealer (minor point here is why i have to choose one now?) - webpage produces "Internal Error" and couldn't proceed further. The traditional car makers just don't get it. That is why Tesla is a $T company.

itsoktocry 6y ago

>trying to catch up on range There are a couple cars in the price range of the Model 3 that have better range, combined with the fact Tesla is known to exaggerate the range of their vehicles.

m463 6y ago

I had a leaf (24kwh battery). It was very inexpensive ~ $7500 @ 4 years old. Part was the subsidies that brought the new price down, part was fear about the batteries. You can't buy many cars with ~ all the options after 4 years for 1/4 of list price. It was charged at home and mostly just used around town. It was perfect for ~ 25 miles of daily driving. I did take it on longer journeys and charge on the way, but think 30 miles from home, not 200 miles. It took careful planning and a little faith in "plan B" I had to get accounts with 3 charging providers: - chargepoint - their model seems to be they sell the chargers and run them for the property owner. Many companies run private chargers for their employees this way. They do mostly L2 chargers at malls, restaurants, etc. THey don't have many fast L3 chargers on their network. They are very well run and their chargers are reliable. - evgo - they own the chargers and install them. They usually put 2 fast L3 chargers + a row of slower ~6kw L2 chargers at places like whole foods and walmart. They are very reliable, and good for trips. Sometimes you will have to wait for someone to finish charging. - blink - frankly, they suck. I haven't had much problem with their slower L2 chargers, but finding an L3 charger was like playing fallout scrounging bombed out infrastructure. Seriously, their chargers were always broken and undependable. They're owned by the property owners but somehow never fixed. I haven't used my accounts in 2 years, and things might have changed. I know there are a few more entrants now. Telsa meanwhile makes travel like a "normal car" possible via LOTS of overlapping details: - large batteries - travel radius is larger - charging station location - usually within radius - charging station sizing - most stations have a LOT of chargers - fast charging - you travel more and sit less, also less contention for chargers - navigation - nav system will plan your route for you, including charging Note that there is also a "secondary" tesla network of slow(er) chargers that doesn't get mentioned much. Hotels and other places have installed these "destination chargers" that tesla has provided for free. Slower usually means 6kw, but I've heard some do higher rates like 18kw.

Rafert 6y ago

Counterpoint: I use the Circuit Electrique network (owned by Hydro Quebec) and their infrastructure has been great. Level 2 curbside chargers are found throughout the city and they app works fine. There's a few super chargers outside Montreal but nothing worth driving out of the way for. While digging in to how their network is built, I found out it seem their infrastructure is from AddEnergie, a Quebec company that's also the provider for the eCharge (New Brunswick) and the BC Hydro EV. They have their own consumer brand for home chargers and public charging network across Canada called FLO. They seem to be growing fast (closed their series C last year), their product seems to be pretty good, so it doesn't have to be all terrible.

websites22 6y ago
>And the app works fine The Tesla standard is so high that if your customers have to use app, you've already failed.
- adrr 6y ago
  I have to use the Tesla app to figure out if there is free superchargers available at 3 supercharger stations near me. ChargePoint chargers at my work just require me scan a card in my phones digital wallet.
  - redindian75 6y ago
    the car knows where chargers are... no need to check Tesla App.
  - natch 6y ago
    The other reply already mentioned that the car knows where the chargers are. But it's even better than that; the car knows how many are available as well, updated in real time. As of a couple software updates ago.
  - monadic3 6y ago
    What do you mean by "digital wallet"? I've never heard this term before.

innagadadavida 6y ago

Here is what I liked about Tesla chargers: 1. The short cable is good as it keeps careless people from entangling and making a cable mess. 2. Compared to the chademo plug, the Tesla plug is light and small and is less likely to get damaged if dropped accidentally. 3. When you press the button on the plug, the car charging port opens automatically. Also the charging port closes automatically when unplugged. 4. If port is broken, most Tesla owners have the etiquette to signal this to the next user by keeping the plug out. What would be better is to show this status like a light (visibly from 20ft at night). 5. They show chargers right in the car display map and tell you how many are free to use no need for another app. These are all nice small touches. The biggest mess the EV folks have made is having 5 different types of poorly designed chargers and plugs and current capacity. Having one type of plug and making them all fast will go a long way to better EV adoption. The oil companies have done much better and this is a shame.

natch 6y ago

I have made a point of trying other networks and they definitely don't hold a candle to the Supercharger network ease of use, simplicity, speed, coverage, etc. There are some really choice UI travesties on display in some of the non-Tesla chargers. * Buttons that appear on screen and pulsate enticingly, but even though it's a touch screen, you discover later that you were supposed to press the corresponding hardware button below the screen, not the button shown on the screen, but there's no instruction to that effect. * Laggy buttons that seem to not respond, then react later and draw a new button in the same place, with a different action, just as your finger comes down and taps intending to try again with the button that just disappeared. * The UI leads you through an entire flow (Electrify America) on the hardware, and then at the end it says "please unplug and start over then plug in again" where other stations are "please plug in first and then start on the UI". * Or you have an account already with a linked credit card and you swipe your phone, and the station shows on the screen that it recognizes your account, and you go through the entire flow and it says at the end: "Sorry, this station can only be enabled through the app." Please use the app to start the charging. Dude, I just swiped my phone and it has the app right here and the screen told me to proceed on the charger station screen. To be fair, once you get through this rigamarole a couple times and learn the quirks, most people can use the system, and these third party chargers have sometimes been really useful. But yeah one is thankful to have more options than just those bad ones. By contrast, Tesla charging is you take the plug off the holder and plug it in. Done. Still it's nice to have the other chargers around. Like free slow charging at Target… if I spend 30 minutes there, I get 12 miles or so, sure, I'll take it. When choosing an EV you should look at the Venn diagram of what chargers will be available to you, and choose one that has the best options… Tesla is firmly on top in such a comparison, with essentially a superset of almost all charger types and locations open for use. Would love to see them start selling a Tesla CCS adapter too but that would be almost an embarrassment of options.

fossuser 6y ago

What’s wild to me is that the legacy car companies watched tesla do this over a ten year period and basically did nothing except mock them during that time. Even now the legacy companies are held up by few EV models, bad range, bad software, bad dealership experience, and bad charging networks. Tesla may be overvalued, but I have little faith the existing companies will survive this transition. It feels like they’re all RIM when the iPhone launched, mocking it and then suddenly talking about how the competition is getting a little heated. If Apple also gets in its even more hopeless for legacy companies. It’s also wild none of them took Tesla up on the offer to use their superchargers - I think it would have been worth nearly any price.

helsinkiandrew 6y ago
To be fair, there's always been a lot of niche 'technologies' in vehicle propulsion - hydrogen, fuel cells, LPG, that may or may not have been the future. It's taken a leap in battery technology and worries about climate change at the same time to make EV's the 'right choice'. It's very hard for large companies to change direction (car companies have a 100 years of momentum behind them). They tend to do so by buying niche players - small car and technology companies that have proven (or nearly proven) themselves. I don't think Tesla is going to be bought up but I wouldn't discount the legacy car and oil companies from surviving. If gas station companies start installing charging stations at every one of their stations the market may look very different.
- fossuser 6y ago
  Hydrogen fuel cells were a stupid option paraded out repeatedly (usually by legacy companies using it to say EVs were bad) and Tesla said as much at the time. The predictions about battery tech improvements were reasonable ones and publicly made (arguably easy to accept). Legacy companies could fix this in theory, but in practice they wasted ten years and aren’t making the moves necessary today. I’d bet against them.
  - hulitu 6y ago
    > Hydrogen fuel cells were a stupid option paraded out repeatedly (usually by legacy companies using it to say EVs were bad) and Tesla said as much at the time. Hydrogen fuel cells are not a stupid option. Charging is here the stupid option. When 50000 houses need each 20KWh each night at almost the same time they will destroy the local power lines which were not designed for this. > The predictions about battery tech improvements were reasonable ones and publicly made (arguably easy to accept). Well battery improvements shall have come earlier (in 100 years there was almost no improvement). Even now the dream of having your battery to save your solar power is still mostly a dream. > Legacy companies could fix this in theory, but in practice they wasted ten years and aren’t making the moves necessary today. I’d bet against them. Legacy companies want profits which are rising, to please the stakeholders.

Melting_Harps 6y ago

> As a Tesla owner, I tried using a third-party charging station once just to see what it was like. I ended up leaving and going to the closest supercharger instead because of how laughably bad the experience was. This really is a night and day difference for people who don't have a charging port at home/work or have to use their cars for long distances. It makes the experience that better, as opposed to having to go to the mall or a shopping center, some of who actually offer free charging in some cases near wholefoods and other upscale shops, and rely on old charging systems that keep you there for hours instead of the 30 min top up you can get on a P95D that is rather convenient on the coasts. I already put my deposit for a Cybertruck but I want to my mom to get a Tesla too so we will be driving to the next SpaceX launch in Vandenburg next month with a FSD and see what she thinks and finally moves away from ICE. I was always a proponent of EV vehicles but what really did me it for me was how quick Tesla rolled out its Supercharging network, that was such an undervalued component in their overall valuation. Having worked in the autos Industry it dawned on me somewhere between 2015 or so that Tesla isn't as much a car company as it is a power company and that their MVP were cars but would gradually transition more and more toward infrastructure for power generations stations, Chamath made the same observation around the same time and echoed his view earlier this year about it, too.

fpoling 6y ago

In Norway one and halve year ago I did 1000km round trip in eGolf. The trip was over mountains and I needed to charge quite a few times. It was not possible to pay with a credit card directly without installing an app. All charging stations offered sms payments but the rate was 20-25% higher than paying with an app. So by the end of the trip I ended up with 4 different apps. Even after installing the app and entering credit card details the experience was bad. One has to enter the charger code which at one place was 4 digits even when there were only 2 chargers. Then sometimes charging required 2-3 attempts to press the start button in the phone. At one time I could not start charging in the phone and called the support. They rebooted the charger, but it still did not help. Eventually they claimed incompatibility with my phone and started charging themselves. 6 months ago I did 750km trip in a rented Tesla. Charging just worked with no need for phone or entering anything and I just received the final bill from the renting company with all the details.

AntiImperialist 6y ago
Sounds like Tesla is using dark patterns to disincentivize cars from other manufacturers to use the charging stations. They are asking for regulatory intervention.