32 ms·

Tesla’s charging stations left other manufacturers in the dust

• mjamesaustin 6y ago
  As a Tesla owner, I tried using a third-party charging station once just to see what it was like. I ended up leaving and going to the closest supercharger instead because of how laughably bad the experience was. Tesla has done a phenomenal job making it easy and convenient to own and drive an EV. Other automakers are trying to catch up on range and acceleration, but if they really want to compete they need to consider the entire user experience.
  • mapmap 6y ago
    What was bad about it?
    • djrogers 6y ago
      Not OP, but 3rd party chargers often: 1) require a new app to be installed 2) require you to create an account and add your credit card info 3) are broken 4) work, but charge slower than they should
      • filoleg 6y ago
        While a minor thing, I wanted to add to this, even when everything works properly and on the first try with third party chargers, you gotta pull out your phone and open the app (or use it as an Apple Wallet card, if the charging station supports it) to activate the charger and start the whole charging process. As opposed to superchargers, where you literally just plug the charger in and that's it, everything is handled for you.
      • gameswithgo 6y ago
        Who the heck thought an app was a good idea? Complete non starter for me.
        • secabeen 6y ago
          It's twofold. One, they want some way to notify you back when your charge session is nearing completion, or if you get unplugged unexpectedly. Two, they want the data on your usage individually identified, so they can sell/mine it.
          • gameswithgo 6y ago
            Ok that is a good point, optional app integration is sensible.
          • waiseristy 6y ago
            They really should just call your phone, I can't think of a single other long-wait activity that forces you to install spyware. Oil changes, doctor / dentist appointments, furniture delivery, etc. They all just give you a call
            • BoorishBears 6y ago
              Just because you want a call doesn't mean everyone else does. I'd much rather have an app notify me than an automated phone call, I (and most people I know) probably wouldn't even pick it up. - I can uninstall an app, I can't ungive someone my phone number.
              • waiseristy 6y ago
                To each their own! I can not stand having random apps installed on my phone. They all eventually turn into notification spamming spyware. I get spam phone calls all the time anyway, have the charging station call / text me and leave me a message instead
            • secabeen 6y ago
              Many people don't want to give their SMS-capable number to a random charging station in another state. I don't mind giving my number to my doctor, but a charging station is a different risk profile.
            • 6y ago
      • kurthr 6y ago
        Yes, unless you're using the newest and rarest non-superchargers, you're looking at 8-14kW vs 50-150kW. Also there are 3 or more different ones (so one app isn't enough) and because they take so long to charge people often park for extended (e.g. 4+ hours) periods. They border on useless, unless they happen to be where you work or live, if what you're looking for is a quick fill-up.
    • cogman10 6y ago
      Here's the tesla experience. Pull into charge, plug in the car, start charging. Here's the competition. Pull into charge, plug in the car, Maybe swipe a credit if you are lucky and start charging. Likely, you need to install a 3rd party app first then you need to feed that app your CC information and then you need to tell that app a station number to activate. You better hope there's good internet because if there's not you might not be able to charge. Further, for stations that do take a credit card or tap and pay. It's like 50/50 on whether or not it will actually go through. Usually it takes a crazy long time to actually validate the card number before charging (Like, I've waited 10 minutes before for a charge to start!).
      • slg 6y ago
        Then if and when you finally get through all that, you are likely charging at a much slower speed than a Supercharger. Using a Supercharger is even easier and more seamless than refueling with gas. Other EV chargers are generally much worse than gas. I hope they get there eventually, but right now it is a night and day difference in my experience.
        • cogman10 6y ago
          Agreed. I don't care too much about the charge time or cost myself as even with the hiked rates, charging is generally comparable or cheaper than a gas fill up (which only strikes on road trips for me). What I really care about is how much time I'm interacting with the charge equipment. It sucks to be standing outside in the freezing cold waiting for your card to maybe get accepted only to find out that for some dumb reason the machine decides to decline it (forcing you to use an app which you likely don't have). There's no reason all EV charging can't be a better experience than gas charging. There's already a data line established when you plug in (Both CCS and Chademo have data lines) so it should be beyond trivial for there to be a standard payment scheme (It should have existed from the start).
          • caf 6y ago
            ISO 15518-2 does specify a "Plug and Charge" scheme. Tritium's chargers support this at least.
    • jmpman 6y ago
      Many times the third party chargers are broken, or vandalized. Some have screens which are completely unreadable after a few years in the sun. They’re sited in inconvenient spots, such as mall parking lots, which have nothing open after 9pm. That being said, the Tesla charging network is far from perfect. Check to see how many US National Parks you can practically visit with a Tesla. Carlsbad Caverns? Nope. North Rim of the Grand Canyon? Barely.
      • whoisburbansky 6y ago
        Apparently this reddit post from three years ago doesn't think so: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/6oq1wb/an_updated_list_of_us_national_parks_and_whether/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/6oq1wb/an_upda.... Looks like only four National Parks aren't (as of three years ago) within round trip distance of a Supercharger, and Carlsbad isn't one of them.
        • gameswithgo 6y ago
          Some of those that are near the mid 250s would be risky, especially as the car is likely to be loaded down with above average mass, maybe some bikes or a roof luggage unit hurting aero. Guess you could drive slow.
          • ghaff 6y ago
            Furthermore, people often don't drive to a national park, drive around a bit, and head back. When I visit Death Valley, I probably drive hundreds of miles within the park.
            • dliff 6y ago
              I was in Death Valley last weekend. Drove there from SF with Model Y, ended up renting an ICE car to explore the park, especially since we were staying 1.5 hours from the center of the park. I saw several Teslas around the park, and I think it's doable if you only want to visit say 1 or 2 locations, but without a Supercharger in the middle of the park, you will be limited and won't have the flexibility to see everything. The resort in the middle of the park has 4 J1772 chargers, which would help if you were staying in the park overnight, but we were simply doing day trips.
    • pornel 6y ago
      Chargers have the same quality and reliability as a free public WiFi. Often broken, slow, difficult to activate, and nobody cares. The market is fragmented. Chargers are run by different companies. Very often you can't even use them, because they don't accept card payments, and expect you to have a membership, or at best use their custom shitty app.
  • mohaine 6y ago
    I have an acquaintance that had just bought his 4th Leaf (2019) and decided to drive it on a 400ish mile road trip to a conference. It took him over 10 hours. When he got to the next charger they 1) Often only had 1 high output charger. 2) The one they had was often either in use, or broken leading to very long charge times. This combined with the less than stellar driver assist the would never get any better for the life of car made him almost instantly regret sticking with the leaf. He owned it for about 2 months before trading it in on new Model 3.
    • stcredzero 6y ago
      When I went for my test drive of a Model 3, I noted that there was a Chevy Bolt being traded in for a Model 3.
      • bdamm 6y ago
        Yeah. The Bolt is a nice driving car, but the charging rate is a joke compared to any Tesla.
        • cbm-vic-20 6y ago
          The Supercharger is definitely faster, but a Bolt on a CCS DC Type-3 charger is slower, but in the same league. On the other hand, the "user experience" of every Type-3 charger I've seen is terrible. The chargers are often in inconvenient places, the super thick cables are very short, and then you've got to try a couple of times to get the charger and the car to talk to each other and get the payment sorted out. Tesla wins on this hands down, and it's not even close. Oddly enough, the Type-2 experience isn't nearly as bad. Other than requiring 6+ hours to charge...
          • bdamm 6y ago
            Chevy Bolt with optional fast charging: 55kW Tesla Model 3 base model: 170kW So not really the same league at all.
        • Shebanator 6y ago
  • 1234letshaveatw 6y ago
    Does your user experience rating take into account interoperability (or lack thereof of e.g superchargers) and service center and replacement part availability?
    • jsight 6y ago
      I'm going to guess it does and is graded against his own personal experience with other vehicles.
      • 1234letshaveatw 6y ago
        I'm going to guess it doesn't- as the supercharging network is a closed platform which is a problem for any vehicle other than a Tesla
        • djrogers 6y ago
          Which is a net benefit for a tesla owner. Less competition for charging space, plus less abuse of the chargers = better experience for a tesla owner.
    • mynameisvlad 6y ago
      Why would a Tesla owner care about interoperability? The supercharger network is clearly a selling point for Tesla. Why do they need to allow access to other manufacturers? Why would they even want to do that? I mean, this whole article is about how Tesla invested in a charging infrastructure that is leaps and bounds above all competitors. The whole point is that Tesla decided that was a requirement before scaling up production and it is a key reason why people choose their EVs over the competition.
      • netsharc 6y ago
        Huh, true, if Tesla allowed other cars to use the Supercharger, then the chances of a Tesla owner arriving to a fully occupied Supercharger location (full of all kinds of car brands) would increase quite a lot. But if Elon was serious about what he said about climate, and wanting to turn the car industry electric, he should do exactly that, so that more people get electric cars, regardless of the brand.
  • jsight 6y ago
    To be fair, now (8 years after the first superchargers), Electrify America supports plug and charge. Because of this, the experience with the Mach-E is really close to that of supercharging. There's still a gap, but its much smaller now and EA is even ahead in some areas.
    • hnburnsy 6y ago
      See my other post in this thread specifically about the Mustang and Electrify America. Looks like they have a way to go.
      • jsight 6y ago
        Yeah, the recent cannonball run in a Taycan (Search Out of Spec Motoring if you want to see the details) had some similar issues. In particular, the Mach-E seems to be struggling with low charge rates. However, that review is a press vehicle and was technically preproduction. I have yet to see someone knowledgeable going through the details with an actual customer delivered vehicle.
        • Reason077 6y ago
          > "Yeah, the recent cannonball run in a Taycan (Search Out of Spec Motoring if you want to see the details) had some similar issues." However, despite those issues, they were still able set the electric cannonball record in the Taycan, beating the previous record (set by the same guys in a Tesla Model 3) by nearly an hour! That's because the Taycan charges much faster on EA's 350 kW chargers than a Tesla does on a typical Tesla supercharger. (It might be a different story if Tesla had more of the new faster "V3" superchargers, but there are only a few of those on the Cannonball route).
      • thatfrenchguy 6y ago
        It's pretty obvious looking at their current volume of charging that ElectrifyAmerica is clearly in beta mode right now, targeting mostly enthusiasts. I've done ~40-50 sessions with them and I never got stranded, but I've had to move the car to the next charger like half the time. Good thing they're putting 4 to 8 stalls at each station.
  • fiftyfifty 6y ago
    I'm really shocked that other manufacturers haven't invested in more infrastructure. Toyota and Honda pushed hydrogen fuel cell vehicles for years, they could have easily accelerated adoption of the tech by investing in refueling infrastructure. Now all that money they invested in fuel cell cars looks to be wasted as they both are playing catchup with battery electric vehicles, mostly because of Tesla.
    • toomuchtodo 6y ago
      Legacy automakers never thought they were going to have to build and sell EVs at scale until Tesla forced their hand (and also demonstrated to governments that it was time to schedule new combustion vehicle sales bans), hence why they didn't invest in their own charging networks (which cost Tesla over half a billion dollars and counting [1] [2]). [1] https://supercharge.info/changes https://supercharge.info/changes [2] https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map
    • Animats 6y ago
      Toyota and Honda pushed hydrogen fuel cell vehicles for years Toyota wanted someone else to pay for the infrastructure. California has 27 hydrogen stations up today.[1] There's not much interest in building more. [1] https://m.cafcp.org/ https://m.cafcp.org/
      • Hypx 6y ago
        https://www.slashgear.com/navistar-and-gm-reveal-hydrogen-truck-plan-with-an-infrastructure-fix-27656983/ https://www.slashgear.com/navistar-and-gm-reveal-hydrogen-tr... Some of you guys are seriously stuck in the 2010s. Hydrogen is coming a big way and the old talking points are outdated.
        • cycrutchfield 6y ago
          Any year now
          • 6y ago
  • starfallg 6y ago
    In the UK, there are several different networks now and they offer a good enough experience. Polar Network (now BP Pulse) has many more locations than Tesla, and their rapid chargers are located in convenient locations, such as restaurants and hotels or on a side street in the city center. Cost-wise, the rapid charger price is just 60% of the Tesla Supercharger per kwh.
    • mprev 6y ago
      My experience has been different. Electric Highway (Ecotricity) has a high rate of broken chargers. When you find one, they seem to charge a minimum fee of £12 regardless of how much you use. Most chargers are slow. Either 7kw or 11kw is common; 20kw is considered rapid in some places. The fragmentation of networks means you need at least four crap apps just to get around and then you’ll probably need to install a new app if you’re going somewhere new. What you call convenient locations are a mixed blessing. Spaces for chargers are often ICEd in my experience because they’re in busy car parks. I just want to pull up, plug in, and tap my credit card. The charge networks seem to go out of their way to make using the service painful.
      • starfallg 6y ago
        >I just want to pull up, plug in, and tap my credit card. That's exactly the way that all Polar rapid chargers work, and there's a lot of them scattered around now. The rate is lower if you join as a member though.
        • mprev 6y ago
          Oh great; looking forward to trying them. For obvious reasons, I've hardly been anywhere for around 10 months now so I haven't come across any Polar chargers yet.
  • cronix 6y ago
    One thing I like about Nio is they are using swappable batteries[1] that can be swapped out in about 3-5 minutes, which is comparable, or likely faster, than filling (from empty) at a gas station depending on tank size. It also leaves Nio in charge of keeping the batteries up to date so your car won't lose value over time like a 10 year old car with degraded batteries that won't hold as much of a charge and take longer and longer to charge over time as the battery degrades and cost a heck of a lot to swap out. It costs about $16k[2] to get a Model 3 battery replaced. Nio is able to sell cars for about $10k cheaper by using swappable batteries. Batteries as a Service. [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33670482/nio-swappable-batteries-lease/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33670482/nio-swappable-ba... Edit, added link: [2] https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/it-costs-nearly-2416000-to-replace-a-tesla-model-3-battery-pack/ar-BB1d5GsR https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/it-costs-nearly-...
    • Jonanin 6y ago
      This is a pretty neat idea, but it seems insanely expensive for the network operator. Not only would having a large inventory of spare batteries be very capital intensive, but the swapping stations themselves look complex and expensive too. I wonder if Nio even has the capital required to do this at a large enough scale.
    • secabeen 6y ago
      It's going to be very interesting to see what kinds and levels of fraud they experience with those batteries. Generally, companies don't lend or rent assets valued at $15k+ to individuals without a lot of legal and contractual protections (see your average rental car contract.) Were I them, I would worry a lot about battery wear-and-tear, undeclared damage, and even internal component substitution.
      • mschuster91 6y ago
        > Were I them, I would worry a lot about battery wear-and-tear, undeclared damage, and even internal component substitution. A car battery can definitely carry its own anti tamper mechanism and an LTE modem to report issues. Besides... a car battery isn't actually worth 15k$ to a thief. Not much to part out (PCBs are custom, casing ain't gonna fetch much in terms of scrap metal, and there's not much of a market for used li-ion 18650's with the exception of ecig hobbyists so swapping them out for lower quality isn't worth the effort), if it's an exclusively rent model there is no market for a stolen pack. Wear and tear also isn't that much of an issue as Tesla proved.
  • samch 6y ago
    To add to this, there is even more going on behind the scenes in the Tesla Supercharging scenario that makes it so incredible effective. A lot of it has to do with charger use optimization. As sales of Teslas outpace growth of the Supercharger network, optimization of the chargers is increasingly important. Much like Apple, the fact that Tesla has fully integrated the entire ecosystem (car, mobile app, Supercharger, payments) means that they can also optimize the end-to-end process. For starters, the in-car display shows where the nearest Superchargers are and automatically plans your trip to incorporate them. After a recent update, you can now see the real-time number of open spaces. When the Tesla has its next navigation destination as a Supercharger, the car will automatically begin conditioning the battery pack (heating it, I believe) to allow the battery chemistry to more readily accept the pending influx of current. While the car is charging, the owner has constant visibility and notification of progress via the mobile app. This helps the owner plan to be back at the charger when the process has completed. Finally, Tesla has implemented monetary penalties for leaving a charged Tesla in charging spot after a certain grace period. I suppose that what I’m trying to illustrate here is that the overall level of optimization of the charging experience might just remain unique to Tesla, enabling them to scale their user base more efficiently than competitive, non-integrated solutions.
    • caf 6y ago
      An update last year supposedly means that Teslas will also precondition the battery when a third-party DC fast charger is the destination, but I've never seen this work in my country (maybe it works in the US?).
  • dingaling 6y ago
    > Tesla has done a phenomenal job making it easy and convenient to own and drive an EV. As they say, your mileage may vary. There are a total of three (3) Tesla charger stations in all of Ireland. That's one location per 2.3 million people. For any locals wondering: Ballacolla, Birdhill, Castlebellingham.
    • war1025 6y ago
      I just looked and near me (Iowa) the nearest charging stations are over an hour away. It looks like they are located near the major truck stops going through the state. That makes sense I guess, but you don't pass those places unless you are traveling long distance. I see a fair number of Teslas around town, but I have to imagine they all just charge at home. I know of a single charging station in the area and it supports either one or two cars from what I remember.
      • caf 6y ago
        That's generally the optimal way to use a BEV - plug in overnight at home each night for your usual driving around town (just like you do your phone), use the fast charger sites on long distance road trips, and try to stay at destinations with overnight charging available. Charging at home should be both more convenient and cheaper than making a weekly trip to a local charger (people without off-street parking might have no alternative, though).
  • GuB-42 6y ago
    It is not that Tesla is good, it is that their competitors are terrible. I knew that Tesla is all integrated, you don't even realize you are paying. But I naively expected competition to work like a gas station: insert your credit card to start charging, or, if there is a counter, you can also go there and pay cash. But no, it doesn't work like that. There are competing standards, you have to download apps and all of that nonsense. And why should automakers deal with charging stations? Automakers have to come up with a standard plug, and it looks like we are almost there with CCS2. Now it is up to the charging stations to provide a better experience. Gas cars and electric appliances do it right, why does it have to be worse for electric cars?
  • qubitcoder 6y ago
    Indeed. This is illustrated vividly here: https://youtu.be/hA_B7qPyUDA?t=1120 https://youtu.be/hA_B7qPyUDA?t=1120 Two people engage in a "charging race" to see who can charge the most in 15 minutes. The contenders, a Tesla Model Y and the 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E. The non-Tesla experience is almost comically sad.
    • trhway 6y ago
      >The non-Tesla experience is almost comically sad. Right now, after watching that video, went to the Ford site to order Mach-E (not really order, mainly to get config and price). Fail. Right on the first step there - on attempt to choose a dealer (minor point here is why i have to choose one now?) - webpage produces "Internal Error" and couldn't proceed further. The traditional car makers just don't get it. That is why Tesla is a $T company.
  • itsoktocry 6y ago
    >trying to catch up on range There are a couple cars in the price range of the Model 3 that have better range, combined with the fact Tesla is known to exaggerate the range of their vehicles.
  • m463 6y ago
    I had a leaf (24kwh battery). It was very inexpensive ~ $7500 @ 4 years old. Part was the subsidies that brought the new price down, part was fear about the batteries. You can't buy many cars with ~ all the options after 4 years for 1/4 of list price. It was charged at home and mostly just used around town. It was perfect for ~ 25 miles of daily driving. I did take it on longer journeys and charge on the way, but think 30 miles from home, not 200 miles. It took careful planning and a little faith in "plan B" I had to get accounts with 3 charging providers: - chargepoint - their model seems to be they sell the chargers and run them for the property owner. Many companies run private chargers for their employees this way. They do mostly L2 chargers at malls, restaurants, etc. THey don't have many fast L3 chargers on their network. They are very well run and their chargers are reliable. - evgo - they own the chargers and install them. They usually put 2 fast L3 chargers + a row of slower ~6kw L2 chargers at places like whole foods and walmart. They are very reliable, and good for trips. Sometimes you will have to wait for someone to finish charging. - blink - frankly, they suck. I haven't had much problem with their slower L2 chargers, but finding an L3 charger was like playing fallout scrounging bombed out infrastructure. Seriously, their chargers were always broken and undependable. They're owned by the property owners but somehow never fixed. I haven't used my accounts in 2 years, and things might have changed. I know there are a few more entrants now. Telsa meanwhile makes travel like a "normal car" possible via LOTS of overlapping details: - large batteries - travel radius is larger - charging station location - usually within radius - charging station sizing - most stations have a LOT of chargers - fast charging - you travel more and sit less, also less contention for chargers - navigation - nav system will plan your route for you, including charging Note that there is also a "secondary" tesla network of slow(er) chargers that doesn't get mentioned much. Hotels and other places have installed these "destination chargers" that tesla has provided for free. Slower usually means 6kw, but I've heard some do higher rates like 18kw.
  • Rafert 6y ago
    Counterpoint: I use the Circuit Electrique network (owned by Hydro Quebec) and their infrastructure has been great. Level 2 curbside chargers are found throughout the city and they app works fine. There's a few super chargers outside Montreal but nothing worth driving out of the way for. While digging in to how their network is built, I found out it seem their infrastructure is from AddEnergie, a Quebec company that's also the provider for the eCharge (New Brunswick) and the BC Hydro EV. They have their own consumer brand for home chargers and public charging network across Canada called FLO. They seem to be growing fast (closed their series C last year), their product seems to be pretty good, so it doesn't have to be all terrible.
    • websites22 6y ago
      >And the app works fine The Tesla standard is so high that if your customers have to use app, you've already failed.
      • adrr 6y ago
        I have to use the Tesla app to figure out if there is free superchargers available at 3 supercharger stations near me. ChargePoint chargers at my work just require me scan a card in my phones digital wallet.
        • redindian75 6y ago
          the car knows where chargers are... no need to check Tesla App.
        • natch 6y ago
          The other reply already mentioned that the car knows where the chargers are. But it's even better than that; the car knows how many are available as well, updated in real time. As of a couple software updates ago.
        • monadic3 6y ago
          What do you mean by "digital wallet"? I've never heard this term before.
  • innagadadavida 6y ago
    Here is what I liked about Tesla chargers: 1. The short cable is good as it keeps careless people from entangling and making a cable mess. 2. Compared to the chademo plug, the Tesla plug is light and small and is less likely to get damaged if dropped accidentally. 3. When you press the button on the plug, the car charging port opens automatically. Also the charging port closes automatically when unplugged. 4. If port is broken, most Tesla owners have the etiquette to signal this to the next user by keeping the plug out. What would be better is to show this status like a light (visibly from 20ft at night). 5. They show chargers right in the car display map and tell you how many are free to use no need for another app. These are all nice small touches. The biggest mess the EV folks have made is having 5 different types of poorly designed chargers and plugs and current capacity. Having one type of plug and making them all fast will go a long way to better EV adoption. The oil companies have done much better and this is a shame.
  • natch 6y ago
    I have made a point of trying other networks and they definitely don't hold a candle to the Supercharger network ease of use, simplicity, speed, coverage, etc. There are some really choice UI travesties on display in some of the non-Tesla chargers. * Buttons that appear on screen and pulsate enticingly, but even though it's a touch screen, you discover later that you were supposed to press the corresponding hardware button below the screen, not the button shown on the screen, but there's no instruction to that effect. * Laggy buttons that seem to not respond, then react later and draw a new button in the same place, with a different action, just as your finger comes down and taps intending to try again with the button that just disappeared. * The UI leads you through an entire flow (Electrify America) on the hardware, and then at the end it says "please unplug and start over then plug in again" where other stations are "please plug in first and then start on the UI". * Or you have an account already with a linked credit card and you swipe your phone, and the station shows on the screen that it recognizes your account, and you go through the entire flow and it says at the end: "Sorry, this station can only be enabled through the app." Please use the app to start the charging. Dude, I just swiped my phone and it has the app right here and the screen told me to proceed on the charger station screen. To be fair, once you get through this rigamarole a couple times and learn the quirks, most people can use the system, and these third party chargers have sometimes been really useful. But yeah one is thankful to have more options than just those bad ones. By contrast, Tesla charging is you take the plug off the holder and plug it in. Done. Still it's nice to have the other chargers around. Like free slow charging at Target… if I spend 30 minutes there, I get 12 miles or so, sure, I'll take it. When choosing an EV you should look at the Venn diagram of what chargers will be available to you, and choose one that has the best options… Tesla is firmly on top in such a comparison, with essentially a superset of almost all charger types and locations open for use. Would love to see them start selling a Tesla CCS adapter too but that would be almost an embarrassment of options.
  • fossuser 6y ago
    What’s wild to me is that the legacy car companies watched tesla do this over a ten year period and basically did nothing except mock them during that time. Even now the legacy companies are held up by few EV models, bad range, bad software, bad dealership experience, and bad charging networks. Tesla may be overvalued, but I have little faith the existing companies will survive this transition. It feels like they’re all RIM when the iPhone launched, mocking it and then suddenly talking about how the competition is getting a little heated. If Apple also gets in its even more hopeless for legacy companies. It’s also wild none of them took Tesla up on the offer to use their superchargers - I think it would have been worth nearly any price.
    • helsinkiandrew 6y ago
      To be fair, there's always been a lot of niche 'technologies' in vehicle propulsion - hydrogen, fuel cells, LPG, that may or may not have been the future. It's taken a leap in battery technology and worries about climate change at the same time to make EV's the 'right choice'. It's very hard for large companies to change direction (car companies have a 100 years of momentum behind them). They tend to do so by buying niche players - small car and technology companies that have proven (or nearly proven) themselves. I don't think Tesla is going to be bought up but I wouldn't discount the legacy car and oil companies from surviving. If gas station companies start installing charging stations at every one of their stations the market may look very different.
      • fossuser 6y ago
        Hydrogen fuel cells were a stupid option paraded out repeatedly (usually by legacy companies using it to say EVs were bad) and Tesla said as much at the time. The predictions about battery tech improvements were reasonable ones and publicly made (arguably easy to accept). Legacy companies could fix this in theory, but in practice they wasted ten years and aren’t making the moves necessary today. I’d bet against them.
        • hulitu 6y ago
          > Hydrogen fuel cells were a stupid option paraded out repeatedly (usually by legacy companies using it to say EVs were bad) and Tesla said as much at the time. Hydrogen fuel cells are not a stupid option. Charging is here the stupid option. When 50000 houses need each 20KWh each night at almost the same time they will destroy the local power lines which were not designed for this. > The predictions about battery tech improvements were reasonable ones and publicly made (arguably easy to accept). Well battery improvements shall have come earlier (in 100 years there was almost no improvement). Even now the dream of having your battery to save your solar power is still mostly a dream. > Legacy companies could fix this in theory, but in practice they wasted ten years and aren’t making the moves necessary today. I’d bet against them. Legacy companies want profits which are rising, to please the stakeholders.
  • Melting_Harps 6y ago
    > As a Tesla owner, I tried using a third-party charging station once just to see what it was like. I ended up leaving and going to the closest supercharger instead because of how laughably bad the experience was. This really is a night and day difference for people who don't have a charging port at home/work or have to use their cars for long distances. It makes the experience that better, as opposed to having to go to the mall or a shopping center, some of who actually offer free charging in some cases near wholefoods and other upscale shops, and rely on old charging systems that keep you there for hours instead of the 30 min top up you can get on a P95D that is rather convenient on the coasts. I already put my deposit for a Cybertruck but I want to my mom to get a Tesla too so we will be driving to the next SpaceX launch in Vandenburg next month with a FSD and see what she thinks and finally moves away from ICE. I was always a proponent of EV vehicles but what really did me it for me was how quick Tesla rolled out its Supercharging network, that was such an undervalued component in their overall valuation. Having worked in the autos Industry it dawned on me somewhere between 2015 or so that Tesla isn't as much a car company as it is a power company and that their MVP were cars but would gradually transition more and more toward infrastructure for power generations stations, Chamath made the same observation around the same time and echoed his view earlier this year about it, too.
  • fpoling 6y ago
    In Norway one and halve year ago I did 1000km round trip in eGolf. The trip was over mountains and I needed to charge quite a few times. It was not possible to pay with a credit card directly without installing an app. All charging stations offered sms payments but the rate was 20-25% higher than paying with an app. So by the end of the trip I ended up with 4 different apps. Even after installing the app and entering credit card details the experience was bad. One has to enter the charger code which at one place was 4 digits even when there were only 2 chargers. Then sometimes charging required 2-3 attempts to press the start button in the phone. At one time I could not start charging in the phone and called the support. They rebooted the charger, but it still did not help. Eventually they claimed incompatibility with my phone and started charging themselves. 6 months ago I did 750km trip in a rented Tesla. Charging just worked with no need for phone or entering anything and I just received the final bill from the renting company with all the details.
    • AntiImperialist 6y ago
      Sounds like Tesla is using dark patterns to disincentivize cars from other manufacturers to use the charging stations. They are asking for regulatory intervention.
• antihero 6y ago
  I'm not even a driver so I am a bit clueless. Are EV stations seriously not standardised? i.e. Is it the conventional equivalent of going to any petrol station and having to find a fuel pump that isn't leaded/unleaded/diesel but is more like trying to find the one that matches to your brand of car? This seems absurd.
  • secabeen 6y ago
    They are mostly standardized, but the UX still sucks. Tesla takes care of all the billing on their backend, based on vehicle VIN transmitted through the cable. All the other vendors have to collect a credit card or identify the user somehow, which is not as simple as it could be.
    • not2b 6y ago
      I'm confused. When I gas up my Prius I pay with a credit card. It isn't hard. What's the problem with needing a credit card to pay at a charging station? Requiring an app is stupid, but inserting the card takes a few seconds. The other problems (limited locations and hours, broken charging stations) are real ones, but I don't think this is.
      • aidenn0 6y ago
        It's a "real problem" in the sense that it exists. GP forgot "you need to be a member of our petrol club to fill up" as an added issue. Some of this is due to the slow speed. If it took 45 minutes to fill-up your car, then you might want to get a notification of some sort if the pump shut off only 5 minutes into filling. Really that could be solved by punching in a phone number and getting an SMS though.
      • secabeen 6y ago
        None of the alternate charging solutions I've seen are just swipe a credit card. They all want some way to notify you back when your charge session is nearing completion, or if you get unplugged unexpectedly. They also want the data on your usage individually identified, so they can sell/mine it. They do that with an app, or a fob or whatever, but it's all way more involved than just swiping a card.
• maxerickson 6y ago
  Tesla currently advertises having more than 20,000 Supercharger stations (across 2000 locations). I think that is the global number. That represents a substantial lead, and as others are commenting, they combine it with a nice user experience. I don't see how it will be particularly durable though, there isn't really a bottleneck for deployments of other charge stations, just not a lot of investment in it. Fixing the experience is harder, but gas stations provide a hint that other parties will at least get it down to swiping a card.
  • arcticfox 6y ago
    For a detailed breakdown of superchargers, see https://supercharge.info/charts https://supercharge.info/charts The Supercharger network is why I bought a Tesla, and it's one of the few reasons I think Tesla might truly be able to put a lot of distance between themselves and rivals. They are building it at a good clip, and were doing it well even prior to the enormous amount of capital they now have access to.
    • rootusrootus 6y ago
      In both locations as well as total number of charging plugs, the non-Tesla networks have either already caught up, or surpassed Tesla. And their growth rate is higher. I do like Tesla's plug a lot better though. Plugging in our Bolt sometimes feels like wrangling with USB-A, it's finicky to get lined up when it's dark & rainy. Tesla plug is much simpler. I wish the world could have standardized on that instead of the ginormous CCS1. Oh well.
• PaulWaldman 6y ago
  Is there a reason the current gas stations, that aren't integrated with refineries, aren't making the investment for charging stations? I don't know if this is true or not, but my understanding is that of their revenue, they make a disproportionate amount of the their profits from convenience stores. Keeping vehicles plugged in for extended periods of time would also make EV owners more likely to venture into the store to buy a drink or snack.
  • gok 6y ago
    Gas stations are not really a good place for charging. The cool thing about charging stations is that you can put them almost anywhere there's already some parking. They don't need huge underground tanks, or space for tanker trunks to make deliveries, or even really a lot of space for cars to maneuver around. On the other hand, for road trips they do need to be a place you'd want to spend 30 minutes or so, which means you want better shopping and entertainment than the average gas station store can offer. So some place like a mall or big box store is going to be a better place than a gas station.
  • einarfd 6y ago
    The Norwegian branch of Circle K seems to be interested, and they have put up a charging points at some of their locations. I've never tried the charging point at Circle K though, they might be usable or they might not, at least they look like they are looked after and not physical broken. But after trying some of the other brand of chargers, I've largely given up on using any non Tesla fast charger. I will use non Tesla ones in a pinch. But if I do, my expectation is worse user experience, slower charging and more expensive, which does seem like somewhat of a bad deal.
  • DFHippie 6y ago
    Low margin business without the capital to invest?
  • hocuspocus 6y ago
    The infrastructure for fast charging is expensive and the ROI isn't obvious, EVs being charged at home/work most of the time.
• aynyc 6y ago
  One thing I don't understand is why car makers are having hard time building charging network. They already have one, it's called dealerships! Give dealerships incentive to build charging stations for their EV cars right on their properties. Then add charging stations by highways, gas stations. Oil companies will likely join the movement to offer incentives to gas station.
  • pat2man 6y ago
    I believe they are in the process of doing just that: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/04/about-150-cadillac-dealers-take-gm-buyouts-rather-than-invest-in-evs.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/04/about-150-cadillac-dealers-t...
  • klondike_ 6y ago
    Dealerships are not interested in selling and servicing electric cars because of the low margins. Dealerships make most of their money off of services and repairs, which will be less frequent with EVs.
  • akira2501 6y ago
    Dealerships in the US are often positioned to take advantage of tax laws, which means they're often placed outside of city limits in an inconvenient and less-traveled area that doesn't have to pay the extra 1-2% city sales tax on the vehicles. Good for pricing, terrible for convenience.
    • aynyc 6y ago
      I'm not 100% sure about that. I used to drive a lot in western NY (mostly burned out industrial city/towns from WW2). Every decent size town that I've been to has multiple dealership right in the middle of the city. And yes, some right next to the highway because highways usually cut right thru the town/city.
  • cavisne 6y ago
    they already tried that. But dealers dont have food options or public restrooms that are open outside business hours.
• TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
  > In North America, that amount would finance approximately 1,000 locations with 10 charging stalls each. I don’t think this author lives in the USA. 10,000 charging stalls for a population of 330 million spread over millions of square miles is.... pathetic. There would be perpetual lines to use v these 10,000 stalls
• tenacious_tuna 6y ago
  I've said this to loads of people, but the charging infra is 1/3 of the Tesla "killer app" EV experience. There were (in my view) three core "problems" facing mass EV adoption that Tesla has engaged with and solved very well. First is the perception that EVs (and their cousins/progenitors, hybrids) were slow, terribly boring cards. I think this was largely perpetuated by the rise of the Prius. Tesla solved this by building true performance cars, using the raw torque power of their EVs to assuage any concerns around performance and handling people could have. Second is the concern around "fueling", especially on road trips. This is obviously addressed by how stupid-easy the supercharging network is to use. I don't think any other auto manufacturer will become a true competitor to Tesla until similarly extensive networks are built out by Ford, GM, etc. Third is the paradigm-shift of the minimalist controls and the spaceship-like display. There are absolutely drawbacks to this--Mazda, for one, refuses to have touchscreens in their cars anymore due to safety concerns, and there are instances in my Model 3 where I dearly wish for a physical control. But there's something incredible about sitting in a modern vehicle and not being faced with a baffling array of buttons and dials, and having nothing between you and the road. The combination of these makes for a stellar experience with the vehicle, and for EVs in general.
  • worldsayshi 6y ago
    It's ridiculously wasteful to force every carmaker to build their own charging stations. Here regulators may have to step in to force them to find a standard and a charging market.
    • ssheth 6y ago
      There is an "overarching" standard now .. CCS and a couple of older standards .. J1772 and ChaDeMo .. but when Tesla was getting started making chargers, there was no critical mass around any standards so they ended up creating their own.
      • worldsayshi 6y ago
        Are they sharing that standard or putting up obstacles around it?
• josefresco 6y ago
  Anecdotally I travel frequently to rural areas in the northeast USA. We stopped recently at a truck stop for gas and lo and behold, among the semis, huge propane/oil fuel tanks and farm feed supply store, there was a Supercharging station. Keep in mind this station is hundreds of miles from any substantial city, and maybe 75 miles from a large town.
  • rstupek 6y ago
    Tesla likes to put superchargers on major highway routes in between cities so you can stop for 15 minutes and get topped off on your way
• JackPoach 6y ago
  It should be noted that is is a US only/mostly story. A fair analogy is Uber - dominant in US and some other markets, but clear loser in China, India, Africa and many European markets
• hnburnsy 6y ago
  Here is a good article on what non Tesla owners face, not just I convince but often higher charges. The final take... " As I wrote in my review, the Mustang Mach-E is one impressive EV, one that stands tall against the Tesla Model Y in most competitive measures. But Tesla’s foresight and investment in its own proprietary network remains a key competitive advantage, right up there with its edge in electric efficiency and range" https://www.autoblog.com/2020/12/24/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-chargepoint-electrify-america/ https://www.autoblog.com/2020/12/24/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e...
• LinuxBender 6y ago
  I think they can do even better. Stop charging the car. Keep is as an option, but make it something people only do at home with their solar power and leisure time. Make the battery modules hot swappable. Even better, make it so I can drive over a thing, the batteries swap while I am moving. This means I stop owning batteries and as batteries improve, my car gets automatic upgrades. I bet Elon can not only do this, but can probably even one-up this idea.
  • clintonb 6y ago
    They tried: https://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-battery-swapping-plan-isnt-working-out-2015-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-battery-swapping-plan.... Supercharging is more convenient.
  • recursive 6y ago
    That results either in a decrease in range or increase in weight and size. Physical space for these batteries is a limiting factor. Making the whole thing modular increases complexity, size, and weight.
    • LinuxBender 6y ago
      True, but according to Elons plans around the airline industry, the extra module space should be a wash in a couple of years as battery capacity is expected to grow substantially.
  • greedo 6y ago
    So instead of having a few parking spots with charging stations, now you need to have some sort of hydraulic lift system to swap out a multi-ton battery. And a facility to store these batteries (and charge them). Oh and these batteries are quite valuable, at least half the price of the EV. You would also need to have different size batteries, based on the EV model, the battery model (LF or SF), etc etc. You would have to staff these Battery Swap (I'll call them BS) facilities for when the machinery breaks down, or damages a car, or any other of a myriad number of problems. You would also need substantial real estate for this BS facility, zoned appropriately. Or you could simply install some automated charging stations that don't require any of this CAPEX or headache. Pretty easy to see why this is the model Tesla pursued.
• coding123 6y ago
  Obligatory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec-LrW1tSHQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec-LrW1tSHQ
• stcredzero 6y ago
  I'm now a Model 3 owner, but back when I had the Fiat 500e, I was actually surprised at how widespread Chargepoint chargers were in the Bay Area. The experience with those isn't 100% seamless. I'd wave an RFID card, and most of the time, it would work after a 5-15 second pause. I'd occasionally encounter a broken charge plug that wouldn't release, or an otherwise malfunctioning charger. Even with the piddling 87 mile range of the 500e, I'd still drive from SF to San Jose on a regular basis. I could pretty much depend on the availability of Chargepoint chargers in the South Bay. I even went to an event near San Rafael once, and found that the charger at the school was free!
  • drivebycomment 6y ago
    I second this. I've been driving various non-Tesla EVs over the past 7+ years and during that time, Chargepoint has become quite good and widely available. Phone RFID integration and their "waiting queue" feature have been very useful additions.
• edaemon 6y ago
  This article leaves out a lot of information. > ...none of the major incumbent automakers seems to pose much of a threat to market leader Tesla, which has become nearly synonymous with EVs. This is only true in the US. In Europe VW and Renault have cut into Tesla's lead, and in some countries VW just overtook Tesla in vehicles sold. In 2020 the Renault Zoe outsold the Tesla Model 3 in Europe. > But imagine if, instead of investing tens of billions of dollars in producing cars with no way to drive long distances individually, Audi, GM, Ford, and the rest each spent just a billion dollars to build a network of supercharging stations. They have. BMW, Daimler, Ford, Hyundai, and VW collaborated to build out the IONITY network. VW is also building Electrify America (albeit as a result of Dieselgate). Non-Tesla DCFC stations far outnumber the Tesla Superchargers now.
  • nickik 6y ago
    "In some markets" lots of things are true. In practice 28% of global EV sold are Tesla, and very large numbers of the others are tiny city cars or very small cars like the Zoe. In terms of BEV cars Tesla is the clear global market leader. > They have. BMW, Daimler, Ford, Hyundai, and VW collaborated to build out the IONITY network. And they don't want to pay so the network is not that large and doesn't grow very fast and of course its European network. Electrify America is doing better and as you said, its a punishment for Dieselgate and that why they have capital.
    • edaemon 6y ago
      Well, that applies to this article. Tesla left other automakers in the dust "in some markets" -- and by "some" I really mean just one: the US. Tesla is the leader globally, but the article claims that other automakers aren't even a threat to Tesla, and goes further to argue that the reason they aren't a threat is because they haven't built out charging networks. I don't see how one can reach that conclusion when in the two biggest EV markets, China and Europe, Tesla is no longer the market leader. I'd also point out that Tesla doesn't have 28% of the global EV market anymore (that was H1 2020). As of October 2020 Tesla comprised 18% of 2020's global market [1]. Still the clear leader, and almost the only contender in the US, but globally other automakers are threatening their lead. [1]: https://electrek.co/2020/10/30/tesla-tsla-market-share-global-ev-sales-change/ https://electrek.co/2020/10/30/tesla-tsla-market-share-globa...
• RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
  I am not sure how big of a deal this is. The main use case for EV is short distance daily trips where you can charge at home. Going on a long distance trip, a gas powered vehicle is superior. With gas, especially with cell phone gps, you basically need no planning or forethought. You just drive, and if you think you are runnning low, you just look for a gas station along your route. So yes, Tesla has a vastly superior charging network compared to to the others, but it is still vastly inferior to the gas station network.
  • ggreer 6y ago
    Charging time is a non-issue nowadays. Last weekend I drove from Portland to Spokane and back (almost 400 miles each way). I entered my destination on the Tesla's giant touchscreen. The car figured out the route and the one charging stop. I drove to the freeway, turned on autopilot, and let the car do its thing. Then three hours later the car took an exit. I drove from the offramp to the charging station, plugged in, and had a snack/coffee. By the time I was back, the car was ready to go. The only issue was that automatic lane change was occasionally disabled due to snow obscuring cameras. The whole experience was far less tiring or stressful than any road trip I've taken with a gas car.
  • Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
    Your views are 5-10 years obsolete. Keep up, please.
• Artlav 6y ago
  Makes it double sad that Chevy Volt got discontinued and no similar designs were made.
• guerby 6y ago
  Everyone knows that at some point non Tesla charging stations will catch up. But I'm still surprised it has not happened yet. Volkswagen is starting to sell lots of long distance capable EV like id.3 and id.4 (at least in Europe) with absolutely zero visible/working plan to provide their customer reliable fast charging everywhere they need (directly or via a partner network). And Renault still hasn't made a car with more than 50 kW charging (and even that is a paying option...). Well at least their customer don't need long distance fast charging network ...
  • clouddrover 6y ago
    > Volkswagen is starting to sell lots of long distance capable EV like id.3 and id.4 (at least in Europe) with absolutely zero visible/working plan to provide their customer reliable fast charging everywhere they need (directly or via a partner network) The plans are: - Ionity in Europe: https://ionity.eu/ https://ionity.eu/ - Electrify America in the US: https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger/ https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger/ - Electrify Canada in Canada: https://www.electrify-canada.ca/locate-charger/ https://www.electrify-canada.ca/locate-charger/ And since these are CCS cars you can also use any other CCS charging network like Fastned, Gridserve, BP Pulse, Petro-Canada, Chargefox, EVgo, ChargePoint, Circle K, McDonald's, etc, etc.
• OliverJones 6y ago
  NEWS FLASH! Tesla pours capital into building infrastructure to deploy vast fleet of BEVs! Details in Harvard Business Review! This would have been news in 2014 or so. That's when Tesla's efforts to get this right started being obvious. I'm glad HBR caught up to it, even if they're years late to the party. Telsa is getting it right. For their Superchargers, they have excellent location-scouting crews, permitting crews, construction crews, alliance-building crews, and maintenance crews. Not to mention the actual equipment, centrally monitored. It's no simple thing to convince rural convenience store operators and building inspectors to install electrical equipment that draws more than a megawatt. Most people other than Tesla customers don't know this: they lined up a world-wide network of electricians trained to install those 40a x 240v connectors at peoples' homes and businesses. They must have imbibed Geoffrey Moore's "Crossing the Chasm." Until the Model 3 started appearing in 2017, their customers were classic early adopters. (I was one.) They managed to turn their early vehicles into Veblen goods (where demand goes up as price goes up). That would not have worked without the infrastructure they built. (I didn't buy Ludicrous Mode: it cost an extra US$15K and I would have used it once or twice for the lulz. But I did buy a big battery.) If Tesla's mission were merely to sell cars, they would have failed. Many years ago. Today's bafflement for me: do electric grid operators understand what's happening in the next thirty years? Do they know they're going to win almost all the business of fuel stations? Are they preparing for that? If so, they're awful quiet about it.
  • foepys 6y ago
    Why should they really care? They are selling the electricity and access to the grid anyways. Better to sell the shovels than trying to find gold. Investing in an expensive large-scale charger infrastructure could very easily go wrong and they might not get a return from because of competition.
  • OliverJones 6y ago
    My remark about grid operators? The transportation-energy workload will be large, widely distributed, and somewhat time-shiftable. Some "electric companies" may find a business rigging the retail infrastructure (charging stations). But that's not the key point. The key point is the new revenue potential, and how they will meet it.
• doanerock 6y ago
  Cool now just stop using a non standard connector if you actually cared about the environment. Tesla's sold in Europe come with CCS2, let's just make a standard that all electric cars have the change charge port.
  • doanerock 6y ago
    https://techau.com.au/tesla-supercharger-ccs2-upgrades-are-happening-fast-in-australia/ https://techau.com.au/tesla-supercharger-ccs2-upgrades-are-h...
• lovetocode 6y ago
  Serious but maybe a dumb question. I know only Tesla’s can use the Supercharger network at this time. Is this because other EV cars would be damaged by the power of these Superchargers? Are they designed to be charged at such a high rate? I know the V3 pushes 1000 mi/hr. A recent v2 I used was pushing in the 300 mi/hr range.
  • edaemon 6y ago
    Charging stations coordinate with the vehicle to determine the charge rate, so there's no restriction based on power. Other EVs technically could use the Supercharger network, though many of them wouldn't be able to charge at the SC's maximum rate. Tesla has decided to keep it exclusive for now. There are actually other charging networks that have more powerful chargers than Tesla; for example, while the V3 SCs max out at 250 kW, Electrify America's most powerful chargers max out at 350 kW.
  • agitator 6y ago
    First thing to note is that DC fast chargers output high voltage DC to the vehicles they are charging, bypassing the onboard charger. So although most are theoretically capable of charging many different cars at their voltage requirements, not all are, and that's a base requirement. In order to even charge the different Tesla models and their differing packs, the chargers are capable of varying voltage and current. So they are designed to be variable, but depending on how it's designed, most likely the vehicle needs to communicate the voltage and current charging requirements for it's state of charge. Secondly, Tesla's chargers have unique connectors and unique communication with the vehicles. Not to mention, the architecture is designed in a way that no payment, identification, etc. happens at the supercharger. You just plug it in and everything else is handled on your vehicle touch screen and Tesla web account. So really, unless Tesla decided to license the tech and allow other vehicle brands to id and communicate with their chargers, it wouldn't be possible to charge at a supercharger.
• clouddrover 6y ago
  > Yet, despite investments that add up to many billions of dollars, none of the major incumbent automakers seems to pose much of a threat to market leader Tesla It depends where you're talking about. Here are BEV sales figures for Europe (currently the world's biggest plug-in market i.e. BEVs and PHEVs) for December and 2020 in total: https://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2021/01/europe-december-2020.html https://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2021/01/europe-december-2020.h... https://insideevs.com/news/482202/europe-world-biggest-plugin-electric-car-market-2020/ https://insideevs.com/news/482202/europe-world-biggest-plugi... In 2020 in Europe the Renault Zoe was the best selling model and Volkwswagen Group was the biggest BEV manufacturer (VW owns 12 automotive brands: https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/brands-and-models.html https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/brands-and-models.html). > The reason why consumers still choose Teslas over products like Audi’s eTron The Audi e-Tron was the best selling BEV in its category in Europe and the best selling BEV overall in markets like Norway: https://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2021/01/norway-december-2020.html https://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2021/01/norway-december-2020.h... Different markets prefer different cars.
• maxdo 6y ago
  As an owner of a car I paid a lot of money I don’t want other brands occupy my charger spot, sharing with other brands is a very bad idea. LA owners will confirm :)
  • RealityVoid 6y ago
    This is myopic. Cross-charging means more chargers you can use and better accessibility for you as well in the long run.
    • theshrike79 6y ago
      In EU the situation is that Teslas can charge everywhere (Type2 + CSS) _and_ at Superchargers. Other brands can charge everywhere but Superchargers.
• liquidify 6y ago
  Seems like it would be wise for government to kick in with some recommendations or standards. I'd personally like to see something that would allow robotic battery pack swap outs. Basically run your car through something like a carwash and then come out the other side with a new battery pack.
• wp381640 6y ago
  There is regulatory risk in Tesla's charging network. The example with ICE fuel networks working is because they're heavily regulated - the type of fuel, octane rating, testing, bowser types. is all set by government bodies. I expect at some point the EU will step in and open up the Tesla network much in the same way they have with everything from regular fuelling stations to phone chargers.
  • 908B64B197 6y ago
    > to phone chargers I can't wait the EU to force some standardized interop charging scheme designed by committee. Just like how they wanted everyone to use standard micro-usb. Can't fast charge, can't use the whole range of lightning accessories. But bureaucrats liked it! If you can't innovate, better regulate!
    • ajayyy 6y ago
      My Note 4 had fast charge with micro-usb
    • theshrike79 6y ago
      > I can't wait the EU to force some standardized interop charging scheme designed by committee coughCCScough The whole plug was basically invented to not exclude existing Type 2 connectors. It's good, but not as good as the Tesla proprietary one. But the ship has sailed, CSS is the EU standard now and ChaDeMo is being phased out slowly.
• fggg444 6y ago
  seems to be missing one important thing, all the EV owners have chargers at home, someone just needs to leverage this network to make it easy to book a charge at any owner's place that available and convenient - if you supply, you can consume, everyone benefits.
• dukeofdoom 6y ago
  I need to replace my car in the next year. I was thinking of either going with a hybrid (Rav 4), because of price/range + extra hp. Or going with a something like a new corvette, because I figure these will become a collectible once the switch to electric is made on mass. Range anxiety, and having to worry about recharging is the biggest thing stopping me from pure electric. Plus I think they should be much cheaper, since its a simpler car to build (fewer mech parts), less interior space, worse interior and so on.
  • redindian75 6y ago
    checkout Model Y great price, comes in 7 seat variant. 330 mile range
    • jskrn 6y ago
      I've only driven Tesla's for short amounts of time. What is the comfort level on longer trips both seat and road noise/bumps, etc? Are the suspensions pretty comfortable?
      • redindian75 6y ago
        Model 3/Y has a sporty suspension (like BMW 3 series) - not as buttery as a, say a Lexus. Ive done long drives fully loaded (4pax & luggage), and its ok - not too roomy or comfy. Model S/X has better suspension.
• GizmoSwan 6y ago
  Unfortunately I believe that the article is a Tesla pump because it also pumps the self driving yet pie in the sky feature to be that is not available for review. Tesla had to provide charging stations to sell their cars and California provided them with subsidy. Charging stations should eventually converge to support all electric cars to allow for independent operators rather than a price gauging opportunity to prevent captive consumers in future.
• drzoltar 6y ago
  In California, the main issue seems to be that there’s no money in these charging networks. Most non car company chargers I’ve seen are laughably expensive (sometimes exceeding the price of gas per mile) and slow. Despite being so expensive, it’s hard for me to believe that they make more than $10/day. It’s a few dollars per hour to charge, and most of the time they’re empty. And that excludes the maintenance cost. So you end up with many broken chargers. I’m guessing there’s some sort of state subsidy that helps establish these chargers in parking lots? It all feels like a money laundering operation.
• cyberpsybin 6y ago
  I guess we will never have a common standard for charging EVs. So much for good of environment.
• amir734jj 6y ago
  Maybe I'm an oddity but I'm 26 single and I don't drive much, maybe 2000 miles a year. I order food, grocery and almost everything online. I don't see myself owning an electric car. Here in Wisconsin it gets so cold that my gas barely starts. I don't think an electric car or any type of battery will last.
  • namdnay 6y ago
    If your electric car is plugged in, there's no risk, it can keep itself warm enough
  • theshrike79 6y ago
    I live in Finland and we need to sell a special kind of diesel for it to stay liquid during winter months. Cranking a diesel in -30C weather is ... not a fun experience. Petrol engines are a bit better, but the 5W40 oil is like syrup and the sound the engine makes is not pleasant to hear. With an electric car I can just jump in, press a button and it'll just start. In -27C a few weeks ago I timed it and it started blowing in warm air in 3 minutes, in 8 minutes the internal temperature was around 20C. Yes, it affects the range, but I don't drive hundreds of km a day, so the convenience and comfort trumps range for me every day. If my car was less shit (Hyundai limiting app availability per country ffs) I could heat up my car with my phone and jump in when it's nice and toasty.
• luka-birsa 6y ago
  I do understand the reporting around Tesla is very distorted to parrot the cult of Tesla, but come on... Yes, Tesla has a huge lead in charging. Yes, Tesla has the best UX for charging. Yes, right now this is an important consideration point when buying an EV, especially in the US market that is lagging in terms of EV choice. Do you really think that the guys at VW and others can't figure it out? It just takes a while. Just like it was with cars - they were behind Tesla, now they are in the driving seat in terms of numbers on the markets that are truly developed (in Norway Audi, VW and others are eating Tesla's lunch). The chargers will become a commodity in 5 years time and Tesla really needs to figure out something special as the first mover advantage is going away. The chargers (and the fact that it's sold out) are the only thing that is currently preventing me to go and buy a Skoda Eniaq IV (size of Tesla X, costs less than Tesla 3). I'm sure that's changing in two years time when my current lease expires. Perhaps it's a fully autonomous approach and perhaps they can really make it, but it's really hard to see through the PR bullshit Tesla produces. I guess we're in a phase where people are valuing Tesla more than all car makers combined (crazy, right?) and this hype obviously reflects in news.
  • mavhc 6y ago
    "Volkswagen’s Audi brand topped the 2020 leaderboard with its e-tron sports utility and sportsback vehicles as the most sold new passenger cars in Norway last year, while Tesla’s mid-sized Model 3, the 2019 winner, was relegated to second place" Not exactly eating lunch, maybe a mid afternoon snack
  • icelancer 6y ago
    >> Do you really think that the guys at VW and others can't figure it out? It just takes a while. So they'll always be slower than Tesla? >> Just like it was with cars - they were behind Tesla, now they are in the driving seat in terms of numbers on the markets that are truly developed (in Norway Audi, VW and others are eating Tesla's lunch). The European car market is very different than the American one. For starters, a shit load more land... where getting charging networks right matters a lot. And fast. >> The chargers will become a commodity in 5 years time Would easily take the over on that if we're talking United States. No other company is remotely close to building out a nationwide fast-charging network close to Tesla. I don't even own a Tesla nor do I think the company is a good investment, and I think Elon is FOS on a lot of things. Charging networks and batteries aren't two of them, though.
• sub7 6y ago
  That's what they said about project BetterPlace. Tesla is a bad joke cult company at this price. IMO it's worth $75.
• jaimex2 6y ago
  Not surprising given they spent all their energy arguing that hydrogen fuel was the future like muppets while Tesla stuck to its plan.
  • Neil44 6y ago
    Did any of them argue that?
    • marvin 6y ago
      Toyota didn't talk about anything else. Their strategy was loudly 100% hydrogen and no batteries. Probably from 2014-2019, while Tesla built their global charging infrastructure and manufacturing capacity.
• rpcwork 6y ago
  Imagine being the CEO of a company whose capital structure has IC related debt that amortizes over 10 years, having to report next quarter to shareholders, and your tenure is measured in quarters not years, if you cannot deliver on the topline. How can you responds to requests to buy into a charging network when your response to market forces is existentially reptilian? That is how IC inertia has allowed an innovator like Tesla to come into being.
• GizmoSwan 6y ago
  Tesla cult writes articles devoid of any valid criticism and upvotes their own biased view by populating all relevant comment boards typically. The fact that Tesla is avoiding standardization is to prevent competition just like famous single cup coffee machine maker. They want to make this a service that they can only profit from. Tesla cult is knowingly naive.