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Note that the "homeless" people in Finland are mainly people who refuse to accept support from the social welfare, this is because they prefer to get drunk inst

• Delk 6y ago
  While there's truth to that, it's worth noting that most of those homeless people are suffering from ill mental health and/or substance dependence. You make it sound like they just shrugged and decided that that's the life they want, but I don't think that's how people end up homeless. There are decisions involved, but they're probably not quite as voluntary as that.
  • Cloudef 6y ago
    Those people are given help, but if they refuse that, there's nothing you can really do. People are only forced if they start being dangerous to other people.
    • Delk 6y ago
      I'm not saying you can necessarily do anything; in some cases you can't. I'm just saying that things might not be under those people's voluntary control and decision-making either once mental health issues or substance abuse problems go far enough.
    • wing-_-nuts 6y ago
      I'm not familiar with Finland but to those people have access to mental health services? In the US, a lot of folks who are addicted to drugs and alcohol are written off as moral failures when in reality, the drugs and alcohol are simply used to self medicate and numb the pain of their lives. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any accountability for addicts, but the fact that we completely write them off as a society says more about us than it does about them.
      • Cloudef 6y ago
        Yes, they have access to mental health services, and even rehabilitation services, but again only if you agree to it.
      • Delk 6y ago
        They do have access, at least in theory and to some of the services. But when people do become homeless in Finland, their problems usually run quite deep already, and they may just be quite difficult to help. I don't know if this is true but I've understood that in the U.S. homelessness might more often be a result of just financial downfall, while in Finland homelessness is very strongly connected to mental illness, substance dependence, or both [1]. Those people have pretty much lost control of having a normal life, or perhaps they never had one. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be helped, but it does mean helping them is likely to be an uphill battle. Drug addiction does get judged harshly by the society in general; alcohol abuse is likely to be swept under the rug unless it causes obvious problems e.g. at work, but if it does, it gets judged as well, although not quite as harshly as drug abuse. I'd expect most social workers and medical professionals who work with the homeless to know better than to see addiction as just a moral failure, though, so the problem may rather be that it's quite difficult to treat people who have a multitude of problems that run deep. Health care professionals might be wary of committing limited public resources in cases if they don't expect it to bear fruit, so the mental health services might be limited to emergency care and general assistance by social workers. I'm not intimately familiar with how those services work, though, so they might be more extensive than I think. [1] That is, at least among the native population; another visible group of homeless are poor immigrants living in the streets. They probably just wanted a better life in a richer country or something, and their reasons for vagrancy are probably different.
• deleted 6y ago
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• guerrilla 6y ago
  How does that woman carry all the stuff from one city to another? Does she take buses and they just wait for her to load it all?
  • Cloudef 6y ago
    She walks with all that luggage. She sets up the luggage in queue, and takes the last luggage, brings it to the front, and repeats it until she gets to the next town.
    • guerrilla 6y ago
      Wow, that's a trip. Is there somewhere I can read more about this? I'll google translate it if all you got is in Finnish but I can read Swedish too. Edit: Reverse image search tells me her name is Laukku-Leena. https://www.iltalehti.fi/kotimaa/a/b225828d-c1b1-40b5-b7b1-aac1891e74ed https://www.iltalehti.fi/kotimaa/a/b225828d-c1b1-40b5-b7b1-a...
      • Cloudef 6y ago
        Yes, googling laukku-leena will get you some news and forums where people discuss her whereabouts. Not sure if you can find any non finnish articles however.
• flagrant 6y ago
  > Note that the "homeless" people in Finland are mainly people who refuse to accept support from the social welfare, this is because they prefer to get drunk instead of spending it on food and rent. When you posted this hateful nonsense, did you think nobody would bring you up on it? Can you provide anything to back up this assertion?
  • sharpneli 6y ago
    How is this hateful nonsense? Every citizen is eligible for that support. Do you perhaps live here so you can say it's not true? Sure it's not always perfect, errors in bureaucracy happens sometimes but getting social security is the default. If you accept it you get a house.
    • flagrant 6y ago
      Without evidence, he stated that all homeless people in Finland are homeless because they would "prefer to get drunk". I don't think it's incorrect to describe this as hateful, because it's very clearly informed by a bias against homeless people rather than any real evidence. This is the equivalent of jumping into a discussion to say that Black people are poor because they "keep buying cellphones". It's not a serious intellectual comment, it's cloaked hatred.
      • sharpneli 6y ago
        He said mainly. No all. You do understand that everyone gets social security as money if they need. The problems happen if they are unable to use that money to pay the rent. And yes indeed the main reason is some sort of intoxicant use, as they rather get more stuff than use the money for rent. Legal debts are also not a reason not to pay rent, as one is protected from repaying them when it's about essentials. So that doesn't count either. As long as you're able to push the pay button in your online bank you use the default system. Only when that's not possible do you fall into the provided housing system. And not surprisingly drug use is a major reason for not pushing that pay button but rather taking the money and using it elsewhere. Does that honestly surprise you? What else could it even be? That's why we have the second option with food stamps and provided housing. It's not perfect as people elsewhere have stated the obvious "Hey want to buy 20e foodstamp for 10e?". But still they get it.
• Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  > the Romanian beggars you see in Helsinki streets. While Finns tend to use the term "Romanian beggars", this can be inaccurate and misleading. I understand that this confusion could have arisen because "Romani people" and "Romanian people" sound similar in Finnish and some of them are from Romania. However, many of them come from Bulgaria as well – a very large community comes from the Bulgarian town of Pleven seasonally each year. FWIW, the ethnicity names "Romani" and "Romanian" are not actually etymologically related, it is only a coincidence that they sound similar. You would think that after a decade-plus now of having Romani migrants very visible in the Helsinki city center, people could have learned a little more about who they are, and what drives them to make the long journey to Finland.
  • Cloudef 6y ago
    Thanks, I edited my post.
  • empiricus 6y ago
    small addition which should clarify some more the issue: romani == gypsy
    • ido 6y ago
      At least in the German speaking countries the word Gypsy ("Zigeuner" in German) is considered a racial slur similarly (if not quite as strongly) ill-considered in usage as N*gger is in English. There aren't a lot of Romani in the US, which I think is why Americans aren't aware this is a word you should avoid (but I'm pretty sure it is also considered a slur in English in Britain and Ireland).
      • rendall 6y ago
        It's pretty common knowledge to be a slur in the US too
        • mbg721 6y ago
          That varies a lot regionally. Plenty of people use "gipped" for "ripped off", and "Zigeuner Schnitzel" is on the menu at US German-cuisine restaurants. For once, it's us who haven't caught up with the magical outrage words.
• umvi 6y ago
  > pay the rent for them and give a special card that can be used for anything except alcohol and cigarette In theory that works but addictions are super powerful, so what ends up happening is that the person will still obtain cigarettes and alcohol, even if it requires begging to get the cash for it. Or they will trade their subsidized food for cash or cigarettes/booze.
  • tartoran 6y ago
    For hard addicts, I don't know, they'd do anything to get their fix and that can manifest in unproductive ways for the society: theft, muggings, etc. I'd actually let incurable cases of addiction get their fix for free in exchange for some things such as bathing regularly, stay in shelters at night and not wonder the streets, etc. I'd be a win-win situations in my opinion. Living in NYC allows me to see a very large number of homeless people. And what makes it really worse is that there are sometimes almost 1-to-1 to train cars and there is no way of escaping the stench on trains. If you weren't forced to be stuck in a subway car with a homeless with half of the car packed and the other completely empty except for one sleeping stinking homeless person. The other day my wife took my kid on the train and a homeless guy started smoking on the train. When the train got off she got off that car and got on the next one. It was worse, the smell of rotten gangrene is not something I'd wish upon anyone.
• agumonkey 6y ago
  > they prefer to get drunk instead of spending it on food and rent Some are just deep into a depression pit. I agree that some people are just weak, but most people hitting homelesness went through big losses that damages your motivation to lead a normal life. Grudge, sadness, loneliness, grief, abuse .. don't conclude too fast.
  • Cloudef 6y ago
    The thing is that the "home first" movement in Finland states that home isn't a trophy that you get once you fix your life. Home and food is essential to get your life on track, and home is given even for alcoholic people. But if they don't pay their rent, and even give up on social welfare to pay the rent for you, what can you do?
    • agumonkey 6y ago
      I think it's unrelated, people like that are not ready to function 'normally', they need a shelter, asylum, hospital. It's an emotional problem more than material.
      • Cloudef 6y ago
        If they don't cause harm to other people, you can't really force them or tell them they are living their life wrong.
        • js8 6y ago
          You can show them though, get them to talk to other people who have been in a similar situation, have been helped out of it, and have now a better life.
          • Cloudef 6y ago
            Note that, these kind of people are very rare. I can assure everyone gets all the help they can get. But these kind of extreme cases, usually have no drive to live their life other way, and you can do little to change them. There is very little homeless in Finland in reality, and it's one of the first things that always rubs me wrong overseas when I see homeless on the street. Seeing homeless on the street in Finland is not _normal_.
• jeofken 6y ago
  To be fair to the reputation of Romanians on HN, the beggars and squatters around Finland, Norway, and Sweden are not ethnic Romanians even if they often are born there, but come from the Zigeuner/Gypsy/Roma people.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • ido 6y ago
    Investigating how Romanians often think and talk about the Roma people in their country may be more harmful to their reputation than thinking the beggars are non-Roma Romanians.
    • oblio 6y ago
      I don't think it's fair to single us out, though. This social problem, integration, is present in almost exactly the same way in Hungary, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Serbia. To a lesser degree it's also present in Spain from what I know. It's far from a simple problem. As the Finns are discovering.
      • ido 6y ago
        True, this is widespread and not unique to Romania.
      • Mediterraneo10 6y ago
        Finland is home to a centuries-old Roma community that arrived via Sweden. They too are seen as abusing social services and not integrating, the same general stereotypes as in southern Europe. (Members of this community can often be identified in Helsinki from their distinctive clothing, the women wear traditional skirts.) So, Finns are already aware that Roma populations often live in tension with the major ethnicity of a country. However, the confusion about the ethnic makeup of Romania along with other Balkan countries persists due to the coincidentally similar names for these ethnicities, and lack of interest among the Finnish population about educating themselves about a region that seems far away and to which very few go to on holiday.
• Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  I have read stories about almost any European country wherein it is claimed that homelessness is a choice, and that there are facilities that the homeless aren't utilizing, because they præfer to the homeless or are plain stupid. In many of those cases the actual situation is more complicated and the actual protocol is so involved and complicated that it is very hard for a homeless man to research.
  • pbhjpbhj 6y ago
    I find it almost incomprehensible the first time sometimes told me (in the UK) they were going to sleep on the street because the shelter didn't allow drugs. I don't think they were a particularly special case. Victims of circumstance to some extent, but not stupid nor really living their preferred life I'd wager. I suspect you need a stable caring society for a couple of generations and still there will be some outliers. A worthy cause to address though.
  • BitwiseFool 6y ago
    There are absolutely some homeless people who choose to reject housing assistance and shelter programs. I know because I did some volunteering to help the homeless and met a handful of individuals that were happy to accept donations but refused to be committed to any program. They refused to have rules imposed on them by the shelters and preferred the freedom of doing as they please. One of these individuals has been homeless since the late 80's and seems quite content with his lifestyle. I'm not claiming this is typical, but there are certainly more people like him out there.
  • ogre_codes 6y ago
    Many homeless reject shelters because they would have to give up much of their personal possessions, can't have a pet, live under tight restrictions, and deal with theft from other homeless people in the shelter. Giving people small, secure apartments would solve many of these issues along with many emergency hospital visits and many other issues.
    • malcolmhere 6y ago
• iSnow 6y ago
  >because they prefer to get drunk instead of spending it on food and rent. After a certain point, alcoholism is no longer a choice or preference, it's a debilitating disease. And before that point, it's frequently self-medication for untreated mental problems. Consider this: alcohol is the only mood-elevating drug sold freely, of course a percentage people will jump on it if they have massive problems. Not going to criticize the Finnish system as I know nothing about it, but probably the only way to get to those people is give them homes, food and clothing and try (again and again) to get them to reduce alcohol intake and/or get psychiatric treatment - and accept you won't be able to get all of them to accept that.
  • bzb6 6y ago
    They already have all of that. The next step is forcing them, which is unpalatable as you can imagine.
  • pbhjpbhj 6y ago
    Mood-elevating? Isn't it the opposite. Interestingly, perhaps, I rather feel it might only be poverty - the need to afford food instead - that's kept me from affording enough alcohol to abuse. I'm in a much better place now. The point is that "give poor people food, clothing, and a home" is not an answer in general. One needs people who are equipped and who care for you ... finding people who actually care is beyond democratic governance.
    • ashtonkem 6y ago
      Alcohol is a central nervous depressant, but its affect on mood varies wildly from person to person and instance to instance.
    • Jochim 6y ago
      The point is that giving poor people clothing, and a home is the start. It's the first step in a process that allows you to target narrower segments with more specific needs and it's both better for society and cheaper than locking them up.
• jillesvangurp 6y ago
  I lived in Helsinki for a while. It's not a great place to be homeless because despite recently mild winters, it's just not a nice place to be living outside when most of the year it can drop to freezing temperatures (or well below) at night. Having people on the street freezing to death in the middle of the winter is not something that is very practical. And of course the whole system ensures that people are mostly taken care off regardless of their issues (alcohol, drugs, psychological issues, etc.). Food, shelter, medical care etc. are easily accessible.
• 1024core 6y ago
  > Such people are very rare in Finland in reality however, Given the severity of Finnish winters, I'm not surprised. Try a similar approach in, say, Hawaii or the Bahamas, and see how many homeless you'll see roaming around.
  • missedthecue 6y ago
    We have real life data. Cities in California are spending north of $50,000 a year per homeless person (higher than finland's median income!) and the problem is still as bad as ever. The climate is also dry and warm 330 days a year.
    • GekkePrutser 6y ago
      With that kind of spending, how can it be that homeless people have trouble finding shelters? Sounds like a lot of that money is going to middlemen and outsourcing companies than the actual people that need it.
      • renewiltord 6y ago
        Unless things changed since I last looked, that number is obtained by taking the budget and dividing by the number of people still homeless. So, for instance, if you had 100 potholes and paid $1 million to fix 99 of them, leaving a single pothole, this statistic would read: you spent $1 million per pothole.
        • eindiran 6y ago
          You can use other metrics (eg the NHIP count[0]), but they point to the same thing. Under the NHIP count metric, SF is doing better than most metropolitan areas in the US, but even with huge spending on the problem, the number of homeless people continues to rise year after year. The per-capita count of number of successfully sheltered homeless people in SF (per city resident) is the highest in the country, but even still, I see dozens of completely unsheltered people walking to Bart from my apartment. Eg Chicago winters are very hard to live through if you don't have stable access to warm housing, and the West coast offers a reprieve from that. [0] https://sf.curbed.com/2020/3/4/21152501/san-francisco-homeless-nhip-count-supportive-housing https://sf.curbed.com/2020/3/4/21152501/san-francisco-homele...
• renewiltord 6y ago
  This is literally what people say about San Francisco as well: "They don't want the help" etc. etc. It's like the same thing.
  • ogre_codes 6y ago
    Except in San Fransisco there are tens of thousands of homeless. The entire country of Finland has a fraction of that number. There are indeed some homeless who would prefer to be on the street. There are also tens of thousands who are mentally ill, or just incapable of taking care of rent/ electric/ water, etc.
• hypertele-Xii 6y ago
  There is another category of homelessness rarely brought up: Finland is having a tiny crisis over moldy buildings. There are apparently people aggregating in tent villages who are unable to enter almost any building. Like, hyper-allergic to mold. Construction techniques changed after the '60s to make buildings more airtight, cheaper of course, and built quickly; Moisture was often sealed within structures (from rain or snow) because it costs money to wait for things to dry (especially in winter). This has resulted in catastrophic instances of entire brand-new apartment buildings collapsing in value. Then there's that one particular fungi that loves growing under those plastic carpets that were popular (cheap..). I've personally lived in multiple moldy buildings. Frequent eye and ear infections, strange irritability and headaches, etc. My whole neighborhood was just renovated because they found microbes, since these houses were built quick and cheap. In my city there are not less than two public libraries where the architect thought it a good idea to put a water fountain inside the interior. One was shut off because it leaked water into the building; the other still runs to this day. Misty moisture among paper books. Yikes. Recent cost-cutting measures of public schools shutting down their air circulation systems for the night have raised concerns over the air quality exposed on children. Teachers and nurses infamously suffer chronically from related issues since they spend most their time within these buildings. And the worst part is perhaps that owners of buildings and apartments don't want air quality inspections because they'd have to pay for the damn repairs. People get stuck in moving spirals where they have to get quickly out of their moldy homes only to move into another one. I personally know one person whose business failed leaving her with $100k in debt because she got super ill and the doctors couldn't officially acknowledge that mold was the problem.