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How hard should I push myself?

• Akcium 6y ago
  It's a really important question. On the one hand, most people say that you shouldn't push yourself hard. You should take a rest. Take your time. Pushing hard may lead to burnout/big stress/depression/anxiety/whatever. On the other hand: 1. I see that well-known people who work hard has some results. Literally, a minute ago I saw a tweet from a guy is very well known, and dedicated his life for one thing. And he's working really hard. 2. For me, it depends. If I don't push myself, if I'm not being strict with myself, if I'm not angry I usually don't get any result. However, after continuous hard-work I eventually got burned out. So it's really hard to keep balance
  • tmotwu 6y ago
    I would say avoid blanket advice like "don't push yourself hard you'll burn out". Burnout is a real thing but it's ridiculously overblown. I get burned out often but it usually only lasts a few days. Successful people mitigate this by taking vacation days, not by deciding to coast through the year. Some people are healthier, happier and thrive through the feeling of productivity - whether it be work, a hobby, or a side project. I'd say depression is more common with people who don't have anything to do.
    • Akcium 6y ago
      Well yes, probably you're right. I mean, I truly believe that each person is unique. For some persons it's okay to live a measured, calm life But for others it might be okay pushing. E.g., in the evenings some people go home & drink bear & relax. Others lift weights and "suffer". Some work 24x7 while being happy. "Burnout is a real thing but it's ridiculously overblown" - I like that :) Let's keep pushing than!
    • mannykannot 6y ago
      Having known someone who committed suicide as his startup failed, I would suggest avoiding blanket claims about burnout.
      • tmotwu 6y ago
        Sorry about your friend, I knew someone who went through something similar and it's awful. To rephrase, mental illnesses are very real and horrible. Seek the right resources when you encounter such issues. I just want people to avoid reading articles on burnout from the internet and thinking it immediately applies to you. Trivializing and attributing burnout with hard, driven work is equally harmful, in my opinion, because burnout is just as much a larger combination of other factors. Worse, one could easily overlook actual mental issues present in their lives because the internet tells you its burnout.
    • bradlys 6y ago
      > I would say avoid blanket advice like "don't push yourself hard you'll burn out". Burnout is a real thing but it's ridiculously overblown. I get burned out often but it usually only lasts a few days. Successful people mitigate this by taking vacation days, not by deciding to coast through the year. You probably get frustrated. You're not getting burned out.
      • ArnoVW 6y ago
        If your point is that some people confuse frustration with burn-out, I can't really argue with that. But from someone who has experienced burn-out, it's definitely not something to take lightly. Real burn out kills your curiosity, your capacity to concentrate, to enjoy things. It's close to depression. And like any disease, once it has you in its fangs, it realise how much you miss the life you took for granted before. I know people that have had to abandon a network and a carreer, and that have not recovered three years on.
    • munificent 6y ago
      > I get burned out often but it usually only lasts a few days. It sounds like what you're describing here is simple fatigue and not burnout. Burnout is psychologically different from fatigue in important ways, just like depression is different from feeling sad and PTSD is different from feeling worried. > Some people are healthier, happier and thrive through the feeling of productivity - whether it be work, a hobby, or a side project. I'd say depression is more common with people who don't have anything to do. Yup. People thrive when they feel they are using their strengths towards meaningful ends.
    • nawgz 6y ago
      >Burnout is a real thing but it's ridiculously overblown Right, people reporting the way they feel is a total lie Speaking as a dev who spent 2018-2019 30% out-of-state for travel - you're wrong
    • matwood 6y ago
      > Burnout is a real thing but it's ridiculously overblown. True burnout probably isn't as common as the internet makes it out to be. But, actual burnout is a real thing and can be completely debilitating. It's a lot like over training when exercising. It's serious when it happens, but it isn't that common among the workout for 30-60 minutes/day type people.
  • throwaway2245 6y ago
    > Literally, a minute ago I saw a tweet from a guy is very well known, and dedicated his life for one thing. And he's working really hard. He is tweeting. That means his goal is to portray a certain image. Given your impression, that is part of his intended image and he almost certainly does not work as hard as his social media makes out. (And, if he is that well-known, he might employ people to take care of his social media)
• kulig 6y ago
  Do wild animals "push" themselves? No. So theres your answer. Humans are crazy.
  • _Microft 6y ago
    Something being natural doesn’t make it good by itself. This fallacy is known as the „appeal to nature“: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature Beside that: how would we know that wild animals aren’t actually pushing themselves in some way?
    • ndiscussion 6y ago
      That's not a fair representation in my opinion. Appeal to nature is saying cyanide is healthy because it's natural. But when it's our own evolutionary biology, I think appeal to nature makes perfect sense. It's what we were born to do, literally. Antidepressants and stimulant drugs allow us to bypass this evolution, but at some cost.
  • gscho 6y ago
    This is a strange way to look at it. Do you live your life as a wild animal? There are many things wild animals DO do that would be insane to do as a human.
  • nix23 6y ago
    Because in nature there is no push, just survive or die.
  • ativzzz 6y ago
    They absolutely do. The animals that don't push themselves are the ones that get eaten or end up without a mate and so fail their biological imperative.
    • RGamma 6y ago
      Looking at my 2 T. hermanni tortoises I can really see their species having pushed themselves for the past 100 million years. Sarcasm aside, what they're really doing when the sun is out in summer: Lying in the sunlight, eating, walking, eating, hiding under a bush, hiding under piece of wood, bathing, etc all the way until they're 80. Quite peaceful animals. What matters not that you constantly push yourself... it's well-being and that you are in personal equilibrium. Anything else is probably gonna end in a crash some time.
• ipunchghosts 6y ago
  I think everyone is different. But, for me, to live a happy life, I have to balance my relationships, work, and exercise. I try to make systems that keep my working while at work and keep me focused on people when not at work. I think a lot about making sure I am enjoying the journey and not just focused on the destination.
• nix23 6y ago
  Funny that there is a mountain (Matterhorn) because that's exactly the question on a mountain, you should push as hard as possible to come back safely to your bed and not the top, and that my friends is the answer to the question, on a mountain that is 1.Survive 2.have a great adventure 3.stand on top...
• TimPC 6y ago
  I think the answer for everyone is different. Never pushing yourself enough that you don't know how you respond to that type of stress is clearly too conservative if you're hoping to accomplish things that require hard work and dedication. Once you know how you respond it's important that you account for that. If your stress response is extreme, it's important that you dial things back. If your stress response is quite manageable then you can probably push yourself harder than others. There is a lot of individual variation in how people respond to stress so the right answer is different for everyone. For instance, if you respond to stress by becoming paranoid you may want to dial things back dramatically as you might be at risk of developing mental illness from prolonged stress. Similarly, if you respond to stress by having illnesses become hard to shake you might want to dial things back or at least design your environment where you can turn off the stress when you get sick and focus on getting better. Being self-aware is an important skill and I think it's probably the most relevant variable in stress management.
• AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  "If I had seven hours to cut down a tree, I would spend five hours sharpening my axe" - attributed to Abraham Lincoln. You should push yourself. You shouldn't push yourself too hard. In terms of physical activity, you should push yourself to the point that it's hard, but not to the point that your injured, nor to the point that you're exhausted for several days. For mental activity, it's kind of the same.
• jschveibinz 6y ago
  I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Like anything, balance is the key. I am beginning to realize that it’s really important to plan for balance and pushing myself at the same time. If I plan to have a decent baseline of time for basic activities (this is different for everyone) then I can push hard on some things over short periods of time and not burn out. I know that incremental achievement will still boost my confidence and life satisfaction. I used to just push until I burned out: it’s not a good approach.
• Xcelerate 6y ago
  For some reason, I find meaning in pushing myself as far as I can, despite the constant stress it entails. A family member has commented more than once “why do you have to obsess over everything you do to the point of sucking all of the fun out of it?” But to me, the obsession is what makes it rewarding. I guess my view is that anything worth doing is worth overdoing. It’s not enough to play piano as a hobby; I have to do it 12 hours at a time. It’s not enough to get into cooking; I have to read all of the archived blog posts I can find from world class chefs and attempt to duplicate their approach at home with week long meals. I’m not really sure why I am this way, but I do know that the periods in my life when I have tried to not be this way have been some of the most miserable.
  • RankingMember 6y ago
    At least in my own experience, when I take things in my life this way, I burn out on them fast. Consistency becomes elusive, and without consistency, real long-term progress is very difficult to achieve.
    • dstick 6y ago
      So true. The compound effect.
    • jborden13 6y ago
      Totally. If my hobbies and fun activities are starting to feel more like a job rather than fun, I'm out.
    • Frye 6y ago
      At least in my own experience, when I do not do things consistently, real long-term progress is difficult to achieve. And that is what makes me obsess over things like OP.
  • subdane 6y ago
    Your handle and comment complement one another.
    • 6y ago
• bradlys 6y ago
  As someone who has pushed themselves far beyond what I thought was possible for a person not experiencing literal life/death situations - I'd highly recommend against pushing yourself far. > It makes you more susceptible to heart disease, it makes it harder to recover from illnesses, it can affect your sleep, and it can even affect your working memory. If you start experiencing chronic insomnia from chronic stress where you're getting 30 minutes to 2 hours of sleep everyday for weeks... Know that you're not pushing yourself - you're fucking yourself over. You won't remember anything. A couple days will feel like a week. Things that happened a few days ago feel ancient. You'll be living the life of Sisyphus because you will have to redo things because you will inevitably have forgotten what you did. If you get sick (and you will get sick), you will take months to recover from a simple cold. Your body will eventually shut you down and put you in bed from the stress and simple cold you got. The stress will compound because you are not able to do your basic duties due to the sickness and now you're even more stressed. Stress begets stress - in my experience. It's easy to find your stress levels on a runaway train. So, now, ask yourself - is it worth it? Is it worth being unable to stay healthy, unable to sleep, unable to even remember anything, and constantly being miserable as fuck just to think you're gonna turn Super Saiyan or some crazy shit if you just push yourself further? (Pro-tip: You won't ever have some anime level breakthrough - those don't happen in real life. That's why it's anime!) You likely won't. I haven't. I don't think I've had a single breakthrough or meaningful change in my life that came from putting myself through incredibly stressful times. So, IMO, avoid highly stressful situations. They don't really prepare you for anything - they just deal out trauma and set you back. Some stress can be nice - but if you're like me - your daily stress levels are way higher than most people's. So, your idea of what a "normal" amount of stress is very likely highly distorted. You're probably living - like I am - just one bad day from getting riddled with sickness, insomnia, and amnesia but you don't even realize it because you've thought for so long that this is "normal" or "healthy" or what you should be doing to break through. After all - life is a game... More stress means more XP, right? More XP means higher levels. Higher levels means I can do more. Doing more means more $$$. More $$$ means that house in Palo Alto finally. That house in Palo Alto means someone will finally notice me. Someone finally noticing me means I'll have happiness. Something like that I guess - for the typical HN crowd.
• i_haz_rabies 6y ago
  Few things are more fun than running up a steep hill in the cold rain. Unfortunately, pushing your body too hard will have diminishing and then receding returns.
• tracedddd 6y ago
  It’s amazing how envious one can be of another’s suffering. I really want nothing more than to be driven and stressed about if I should relax more. I’m moderately successful at whatever I do, but I could be so much more if I could find a way to apply myself even 10%. Instead I always take the low commitment, easy money, do the minimum required route. It’s so natural.I’m sure it sounds nice to many people but I despise myself for it.
  • atoav 6y ago
    For me it is the polar opposite. I just do constantly. When people ask me what I did that week I have to stop myself from listing things exhaustively because it would take to long and I don't want to excert that kind of pressure. For me this is more a mode of operation. My way to relex is to be productive in a different field (e.g. to relax from programming I'd do electronics, build a thing in Blender, etc.)
    • wsinks 6y ago
      If it helps you talk about it at all, one of my friends calls just doing things to stay busy as "tinkering". Nice catch all term for whenever you're relaxing in a different domain.
    • SuoDuanDao 6y ago
      Are there steps you could point to that indicate how you found your way to that mentality? I'm sure it's genetic to some degree, but if you could help other people get comfortable in that mode of operation it would be worth a lot.
      • testmasterflex 6y ago
        I’m the same and I think it comes from the personality trait ‘Conscientiousness’ from the Big-5 personality test (an extension of Myers Briggs). I score high on that trait and I assume parent author does too. You can do one yourself on understandmyself.com
  • nix23 6y ago
• thick 6y ago
  These sort of articles need a gigantic preface: you’re talking about a minute portion of the population who gives a damn enough about things to legitimately push themselves hard enough to suffer consequences from doing so. For rest of the population, they aren’t pushing themselves anywhere near close to their limit. They don’t even know where their limits lie. People can stress and get ulcers from whatever. But to be wired in a way where you are stressed because you’re not at the top of your game and you think you’re losing it, is a certain kind of personality.
  • leafmeal 6y ago
    This article is directed at people who consider pushing themselves hard (whether or not they do). As someone who doesn't do shit, but thinks about doing lots and pushing myself hard, I still found it an insightful read.
  • hinkley 6y ago
    At any given moment? Yes. Across the course of a lifespan, the number of people who have pushed themselves that hard is much higher. Some get disillusioned by the process, others get full-on burnout. That said, the people who have it in their future are not reading persuasive writing about it, and haven't discovered hackernews. Possibly never will. Some of the people who are currently living it are within the HN demographic, but only a fraction, in either sense. So practically speaking this is more of a nostalgia piece for much of HN instead of persuasive writing.
  • playpause 6y ago
    The blog is called Superorganizers.
• will_pseudonym 6y ago
  Can't remember where I picked this up, but this has been a good mental model for me for understanding the dimensions of this problem of picking what I should pursue in my career & life. It's a riff on "Good, Cheap, or Fast. Pick two." * Low Risk * Low Stress * High Reward. Pick two. It seems less down to choice than personality in terms of which two you personally should choose, but understanding the tradeoffs you're making is a good thing regardless.
  • cialowicz 6y ago
    I'm not following this one. Wouldn't something that's high reward and low risk also be low stress? I'm trying to envision something that's high reward and high risk, and isn't stressful.
    • mzg 6y ago
      A low-stakes job at a startup where the bulk of your compensation is equity maybe? Though that situation probably wouldn't stay low-stress for long, as you'll want to do everything you can to make those stocks valuable...
    • chrisshroba 6y ago
      A 40-hour a week job jumped to mind for me when I read this. Steady salary without too much risk (if you have decent job security), but half your waking hours during the week and stress that comes with that.
      • thih9 6y ago
        I think I follow but I'm not sure this is correct. Looks like you're saying that jobs with steady salary and job security are stressful. What would be a less stressful alternative?
    • econnors 6y ago
      I could see truth in the sentiment that if you're receiving high reward, stress and risk are inversely correlated. e.g. if you're working at FAANG, and not working hard enough to be stressed, you're at risk of being fired. Or you're working hard enough to be stressed and therefor have low risk.
• gruglife 6y ago
  Harder than last time
• User23 6y ago
  I find Hans Selye’s theory of adaptation[1] to be compelling and useful. Among other things it clearly indicates when to stop. It’s also useful for understanding how to train your body, be it for strength, poisons, or any number of other non lethal stressors. [1] https://charlies-magazines.com/general-adaptation-syndrome/ https://charlies-magazines.com/general-adaptation-syndrome/
• dcolkitt 6y ago
  I think a good rule of thumb is that people are strongly overly biased towards inaction and laziness. Humans evolved in a calorie-scarce environment. Conserving energy and effort was literally a matter of survival. It makes sense to select for lazy behavior, especially when rewards are intangible or not immediately guaranteed. Of course in the modern world, calories are too cheap to meter. Our instincts no longer make sense. It's almost certainly the case that our laziness, driven by a vestigial impulse to conserve calories, far exceeds what's optimal or necessary. The one exception to this is the tiredness of sleep deprivation. Critical biological functions occurs in deep sleep, and being exhausted due to lack of sleep cannot be made up with extra calories. The best advice is to never allow yourself to become sleep deprived. That removes any ambiguity about whether a perceived lack of energy is genuine exhaustion or can be powered through with willpower.
  • fantod 6y ago
    So true. I used to burn out fast whenever I was very motivated about some goal. Now when I feel that motivation, I think about the long term and make it a priority to keep a regular schedule and avoid burn-out.
  • intrepidhero 6y ago
    You make a good and valid point. But I'd suggest there is probably more than one exception. For people dealing with cancer, chronic fatigue, clinical depression or a bunch of other things I'm not thinking of, the advice to "just power through" is pretty damaging, physically and emotionally.
    • AbrahamParangi 6y ago
      It must be okay to say things that are only 95% true. Otherwise we cannot say anything at all.
      • groby_b 6y ago
        It is. Note that OP wasn't criticized for the statement per se, but that PP suggested an amendment to that statement. It must be equally OK to amend incomplete statements, otherwise we stagnate.
• emsal 6y ago
  For what it's worth, Dr. Robert Sapolsky, who wrote one of the books that this article draws on, has a fascinating set of lectures, free online, from his Human Behavioral Biology course at Stanford[1]. I personally haven't listened to it in very great detail as if I were taking the course, but I often skip around to listen to the dissections of various aspects of human behavior. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD7E21BF91F3F9683 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD7E21BF91F3F9683
• RGamma 6y ago
  Once I think about personal progress in a performative way I doom myself to failure because I get seriously stressed out about it (there's likely a significant genetic component in this, my stress-resistance is really low for some reason). I could not exist like that guy in the article, props to him. Personally I try to stay in balance, that way things come more naturally, and there isn't this sword of Damokles hanging over every day I "don't perform". Fostering natural curiosity and intrinsic motivation seems like a worthwhile goal to me (I'm not much of a people person). Then even if you can't combine this with work there'll still be something to look forward to afterward. Oh and never forget to live life a little too ;)
• sentientslug 6y ago
  Does anyone have the source for the rat stress study? I'd love to read it.
• retzkek 6y ago
  > just knowing you have the option to reduce stress is enough to make something less stressful I believe this is a huge source of stress today, with 24-hour news and addictive social media all constantly screaming "the sky is falling" and there's absolutely _nothing_ you can do about any of it. As an experiment, for every bit of news and every tweet you read, ask yourself "is this actionable?" The best thing you can do for your personal mental and physical well-being is stop paying attention. If you can find a source of local, actionable news that actually affects you, great (good luck). Otherwise just focus on the immediate world around you - family, friends, job, community - and let the larger world do what it's going to do anyways.
  • JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
    Many areas have a local NPR-type news source regarding decisions and policy disputes of city councils and mayors. You can reasonably organize efforts to influence these types of decisions.
  • DenverCode 6y ago
    > The best thing you can do for your personal mental and physical well-being is stop paying attention. Last month, I deleted all of my social media accounts outside of LinkedIn, Tildes, and Hacker News. Additionally, I blocked news sites in my browser and subscribed to both the Economist for current events and the Athletic for my sports addiction. At first, it was strange- there was a constant feeling that I was missing out on things happening that all my friends and family were in on. I realized, after a while, that I now spend more time improving myself personally rather than worrying about what others are doing. I wouldn't say I am less distracted.. but it's a different kind of distraction. Rather than finding myself aimlessly browsing a never-ending stream of posts on Reddit, I am now trying to answer questions on Stackoverflow. Rather than reading through posts of my peers landing internships and stressing myself out, I spend time on my resume and learning Go. Also, people text and call me now rather than shooting me a message on social media which is honestly really nice. Even more so with the current COVID climate. The most important part though is that I feel as if I have spent more meaningful time with my significant other. Another change is that I separated my devices. My laptop ONLY has stuff for school and programming on it. Our iPad has the entertainment in books, games, etc (radio.garden has been fun exploring). My phone has all the default Apple programs only. Since doing so, I can't count the number of times I picked up my phone subconsciously, swiped through it realizing there isn't anything on there, then asking myself why I even picked it up to begin with. Sorry for the rant.. it's just been a strange adjustment that is showing benefits personally.
• artificialLimbs 6y ago
  Whatever is the opposite of what is habitual for you. If you push yourself hard often, relaxing and taking more time off will be a challenge for you and reveal new aspects of yourself with which you were not previously aware. If you half ass everything, taking on as much responbility as possible and working as hard as possible will be a challenge for you and reveal new aspects of yourself with which you were not previously aware.
• ilaksh 6y ago
  I think its much more common that other people are pushing you, than you are pushing yourself. So I think there are a lot of people who feel social pressure to put in extra hours at work and give in to that just to be safe. Because jobs are important.
• didibus 6y ago
  I've personally not find pushing myself to ever yield better outcomes. I think we have this false causation between pushing ourselves and achieving something. In fact, I think we often would rather push ourselves in an all out burst of max effort exhaustion, than put dedication and consistency behind a goal. Pushing yourself just a little bit more, but sustainably, consistently, and actually taking your progression slower, giving yourself more time to achieve your goals, but making sure that you're constantly moving little by little closer to it. That's what worked best for me. It means the journey feels easy as well, it just becomes a routine of excellence. I think what often happens is that we're too impatient, probably because we're anxious about the thing we're trying to achieve, we're stressed about it and would like to get it over with so we can be stress free again, so we give a big push, and you know what, most of the time that push does nothing, and you get more stressed but also exhausted. At that point, flight is often the only recourse left. The only exception to this might be short little events, like sure if you have an exam, a bit of stress and a last all out effort can help. If you're competing in some athletic event similarly. But for most other life goals, I'm not so sure.
  • didibus 6y ago
    There's two quotes related to my prior comment that I like to keep in mind, thought others might find them insightful as I did: > There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. That one reminds me what success even means. Simply growing myself, being slightly better today than I was yesterday is accomplishment and success in itself. When you focus on others or external achievements, you tend to get lazy in your approach to growth, you look for shortcuts, push harder than is smart, and you get anxious, nervous, stressed in a way that will slow your growth long term. > Most people overestimate what they can do in a day, and underestimate what they can do in a month. We overestimate what we can do in a year, and underestimate what we can accomplish in a decade. This one reminds me why you got to give yourself longer horizons to success. Success and accomplishment follow an exponential curve in my opinion, you need to keep that focus and continue to accumulate that momentum until the tipping point.
  • TeMPOraL 6y ago
    > In fact, I think we often would rather push ourselves in an all out burst of max effort exhaustion, than put dedication and consistency behind a goal. I keep reading all these words about patience, consistency, how it compounds over time. I believe in all of that. But my own reality is this: I seem to have a very high activation threshold around most of things. For some, this means I'm unable to maintain steady, casual pace. By the time I work up enough energy to move past the potential barrier, the scheduled time is up and I should go do something else. In these cases, I naturally fall back to the pattern of working up the energy and then going non-stop. It tends to make the activation barrier even higher, but over time it seems to integrate to more actual progress. (On that note, being a husband and a father, forcing me to keep a semblance of regular schedule, made this difficult for me.) > The only exception to this might be short little events, like sure if you have an exam, a bit of stress and a last all out effort can help. If you're competing in some athletic event similarly. But for most other life goals, I'm not so sure. I wish I knew how to reach that state, instead of having this natural tendency of turning things into "short little events".
• koolk3ychain 6y ago
  Pushing myself during covid has been a somewhat frivolous and failed effort. Sure, I managed to stand up a handful of small "test" side projects, two of which are now small businesses - however I actually struggled more to immediately apply myself at my day job while working remote. I know the immediate comments will be - focus on your job not side projects, this is obviously why you struggled to buckle down on "actual work". However, I would say that my day to day work gives me more stress and "pushing myself" just lead to further meetings and stress being more involved with other people's problems. Like a few other commenters here I received an ADHD diagnosis in my early twenties - for this reason college was a significant challenge. My deepest moments of "pushing myself" have come from trying to escape situations or life circumstances that make me deeply unhappy. Supposedly, ADHD sufferers commonly focus anxiety like this - however, this is certainly my vice. Being able to gauge risk and make hard decisions with this anxiety is great - but it comes at a huge personal and social cost.
• zarkov99 6y ago
  The Wim Hof method rests on the assumption that peaks of stress are good for you, thus we benefit from artificially generating these peaks through exposure to cold and breath holding. Anecdotally this seem to work rather well and there is growing scientific evidence to confirm it.
  • jschveibinz 6y ago
    Thanks. I’m going to read about this.
    • zarkov99 6y ago
      To motivate you further, I have been doing for 30 days or so, and I love it. More energy, better workouts, deeper meditation sessions and improved mood. Hope it works for you as well.
• stasiu 6y ago
  Thanks for sharing this article! Even though I know more people are thinking about/struggling with stress, its good to read others assessment on it. When covid came around and I started working from home I realized how much stress I had at the office. For at least the last 2 to 3 years I would get these huge headaches which would completely disable me and completely drain my energy. I was convinced that it was purely physical for the longest time. I did yoga, worked out, when to chiropractor, ... nothing really helped. I ended up at a physiotherapist with a lot of experience, who was able to look beyond the physical. After having yet another huge headache during my work week I discussed this with her, we were looking for the what could have stressed me. It was an email. I was working on one project that I needed to finish to continue the work of my team when an email came in about another project I had been pushing away for a while. This email reminding me of that project stressed me so much that it completely disabled me. I still regularly have these headaches, but now I can start thinking to myself, what stresses me here? And I can focus on fixing those issues. Most of these issues aren't just an easy fix, especially now, but its helping me. I'm helping me, I'm listening to my body. Also related to the topic of stress and its consequences is When The Body Says No by Dr. Gabor Mate [1]. He did a few talks on the subject, you can find them on Youtube [2]. 1. https://drgabormate.com/book/when-the-body-says-no/ https://drgabormate.com/book/when-the-body-says-no/ 2. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=when+the+body+says+no https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=when+the+body+s...
• deleted 6y ago
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• rvn1045 6y ago
  People aren't pushing themselves anywhere close to their limits. If you look at extreme athletes who run 100+ miles or swim for hours or lift weights multiple times a day without taking breaks it's evident that human limits are far higher than what the average person is willing to endure. For the average person they should probably be pushing themselves harder.
  • alexchantavy 6y ago
    Just gonna add on to your athlete and weightlifting example: should take into account progressive overload when training, because overtraining is absolutely a thing and you'll end up spinning your wheels without recovery. I think the same idea applies with stress in purely mental situations too.
  • djeiasbsbo 6y ago
    I disagree. This might be true for professional athletes but not for the average athlete. So I would not use that to conclude what the average person should do. Professional athletes are rare and to get into that position, they also have to be lucky.
    • rvn1045 6y ago
      I'm not saying the average joe should try to go run a 100 miles untrained. I'm saying that the average person could easily push themselves more in the athletic realm. If a dude has been going to the gym for a while and can't bench their body weight or run a few miles they're probably not pushing themselves at all.
      • djeiasbsbo 6y ago
        That is interesting, because in my experience trainers and weight lifters tell you the opposite. I have been told to start with light weights and to slowly progress, even if I could have started with heavier weights and would have seen results more quickly. This is because that way it is healthier in the long term. The goal isn't to be able to lift a lot in a short period of training time. It is usually to consistenly stay healthy going forward. But again, that's just my experience. I disagree with you anyway, I even think it would benefit the workforce if there was a third "weekend" day. I think that that would reduce stress and thus increase productivity.
• unixhero 6y ago
  Be brave at work, Push your risk tolerance. Be brave with your transactions, push your risk tolerance. Don't push your stress limits, it will not end well. Having said that, work your butt off.
• psyc 6y ago
  I have mixed thoughts about this. An upside is that you can accomplish things that surprise you, that you probably wouldn’t otherwise experience. But if it leads to knocking your head against a wall, it’s probably not the way to go.
• birdyrooster 6y ago
  I wish my coworkers that spent 10x the energy that I do would instead go work on projects for their community and not just their company. They literally have no time for that because they spend so much time at work e.g. nights and weekends.
  • slumpt_ 6y ago
    This, 100% You are not your career
• xyzelement 6y ago
  It's clear from my posting history that I am hugely biased towards "pushing myself" to extremes career-wise. But at least in my experience, that doesn't really translate to more stress, and quite often to less. I have a theory that there's a constant level of happiness and misery that we experience in most normal situations that really has more to do with who we are than our situation. So for example, a guy may experience a certain level of anxiety about losing his job that doesn't depend on whether he's the janitor or the CEO. He will feel the same amount of pressure and exertion whether he's trying to finish mopping the floor on time or launch a successful IPO. To the extent that this is true, you might as well be the CEO. A related view is that our perceived difficulties are relative to our challenges. I used this example before: my wife and I are pretty busy with our 1 kid. Our rabbi is seemingly equally busy with his 10 kids. I bet we'd feel roughly as busy if we each doubled our number of kids. Similarly, I didn't feel that it was "harder" to go to business school while working fill time than it was to just work. It all kinda feels the same, so the "pushing" part is more about being able to get yourself into the situation than handling the situation on on-going basis. And the kicker is that it all works out way less stressful. If the CEO and janitor worry about losing their job about the same, but the CEO has a much nicer cushion if he actually gets fired, you might as well try to be the CEO. Similarly, if being an individual contributor and being a manager are about equally hard on you, be the manager because if you ever get sick of the job, you'll have 2x the opportunity (all the management jobs along with all the IC jobs) versus just being the IC. All this is a long winded way to say - people over-estimate the stress of being at the next level, and under-estimate the reduction in background stress that actually being at that level brings.
  • munificent 6y ago
    > I have a theory that there's a constant level of happiness and misery that we experience in most normal situations that really has more to do with who we are than our situation. This has a name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill
• brailsafe 6y ago
  > If you put a human in a room where loud noises are going off, you’ll activate their stress response. If you give the human a button to reduce the volume of the loud noises they’ll be less stressed—regardless of whether they even use the button. And if you put a person in a large room with no sound dampening, many people eating chips and typing, and no way to escape it while you try and solve programming problems, you'll go crazy.
  • alexarnesen 6y ago
    First this gave me a belly laugh, then about 10 seconds later it gave me an anxiety about when working from home ends.
• munificent 6y ago
  This is a really good article. I wished it didn't jump so quickly from pushing yourself to stress, though. I think there is likely a lot of variance across people in how achievement and stress are connected. Sometimes you can motivate yourself in ways that are joyful and exciting and not just a miserable grind. It's important to really understand your psychology around why you want to achieve and why you might want to push yourself. Is it because something is fascinating and you want to sink yourself into it? Is it because reaching some goal will help others in meaningful ways? Is it because others are relying on you? Or that you are afraid they won't like you if you fail? If your drive is coming from some place negative, then pushing harder isn't gonna fix that. You'll be miserable while you push yourself, and then miserable afterwards when you discover the achievement didn't fill the hole in your heart. But if it's coming from some place positive, it can feel amazing to live up to your potential. For most of us, it's probably a mixture of all of these. > But humans have evolved this anticipation ability to extend far beyond other animals. We anticipate bad things months, years, or even decades out. This makes me wonder if part of the reason we anticipate stressors so far out is because we have relatively few near-term ones in today's safe modern society. Maybe if we all went into the savannah and slept in a tent hoping the lions didn't eat us every now and then we'd be less anxious about something ten years down the road. > What that means is, just knowing you have the option to reduce stress is enough to make something less stressful—even if you’re not actually controlling the stressors at all. This is such a key point, especially right now in the pandemic. Like another commenter, I like the suggestion to avoid consuming worrying information that isn't actionable. If the asteroid is gonna crash into the Earth either way, you may as well enjoy your time before it hits. In addition to the pandemic, I've found politics the past couple of years really stressful. One thing I did that helps is set up recurring donations to a few charities that work on issues that matter to me. This way instead of feeling like everything is horrible and I'm sitting here doing nothing about it (which makes me feel guilty too because so much of the horribleness is primarily affecting other people), now I feel like I'm using some of my privilege to help. > But there are also many productive ones, like exercise or journaling. Making a list of outlets and making sure to return to them again and again can reduce the havoc that chronic stress can wreak on your body. I do this a lot. Many of my most productive hobbies are really just escapes from outside stress. If I didn't find parenting overwhelming at first, I probably would have never written a textbook on software architecture. However, I found out the hard way over the holiday break that there is a perilous failure mode. I've obviously been drained by the pandemic, burned out about working from home, and really fucking stressed out about politics and the election. So during the holiday break I told myself I'd spend a bunch of time on my new electronics hobby to unwind. And then in short succession I broke a tiny part that had been custom 3D-printed and mailed to me, failed to build a module correctly, found out I ordered the wrong parts for a case, and nearly fried my audio interface. It felt like not only was everything external falling apart, but I couldn't even control the things I was supposed to be in control over. I nearly broke down in tears. I'm better now, but I try to be mindful that when I really need some escapism and artificial control to choose a hobby that I'm more skilled at. Lesson learned.
• asauce 6y ago
  As the author mentions, the most critical part of pushing yourself is setting up a lifestyle that enables you to do so. A couple years ago I was extremely naive and prioritized my work over everything else. Exercise, nutrition, sleep, and even relationships were seen as a waste of time, and were just a barrier to achieving more. Then, eventually I burnt out. But even then I still tried to push myself. I started having anxiety, dissociation (mainly depersonalization), and a lack of passion towards anything in my life. It was a really rough point in my life. After a lot of work I am now at a stage in my life when I can push myself again. However my highest priority is to maintain a lifestyle that allows me to push myself in a sustainable manner. This means good nutrition, fitness, and prioritizing my own mental well being. The effects of that burn out are unbelievable. I still live with a lot of that today, but have learned to manage it. Push yourself, but please take care.
  • DavidPiper 6y ago
    > After a lot of work I am now at a stage in my life when I can push myself again Could you elaborate on what kind(s) of work you went through to get back to that personal equilibrium?
    • asauce 6y ago
      Yes of course. Admittedly, upon burning out, it took a while for me to actually acknowledge the multiple issues I was having in my life. I still had the toxic mentality of “just push through”, and therefore a lot of the personal work I did was incremental. The very first thing I did was reduce my workload. It was probably still too much, but at the time it was unthinkable to stop working entirely. Sleep, diet and exercise were next. Diet was nothing crazy, but I just wanted to eat consistent meals (I was massively underweight). Unfortunately I also had to come to terms with the fact that I am part of the population that needs at least 8 hours of sleep. I really wish I could manage on less sleep, but it is what it is. I’m also not a huge fan of running, but it massively reduced the amount of depressive and anxious thoughts, so I kept doing it. After those changes I found that my energy levels were much better than before. The next phase was completely mental. I hated that I failed at something, and had to learn to forgive myself. To be honest, I am still working on that. Also, I was terrified of burning out again, and went through a weird phase of over thinking and analyzing everything. Turns out it was analysis paralysis. Experimentation/tinkering helped with that. It also helped me relearn how to learn, and how to enjoy work again. A therapist probably would’ve sped up this part of my recovery, but I hated admitting that I had a problem that I couldn’t solve myself. Very toxic mentality and one I still face to this day. I also recently started journaling. I’m not overly consistent (working on that!), but it forces me to take a step back and evaluate my mental state at the time of writing. It’s an ongoing process, and there are probably a lot of steps I’ve missed. However these were the major goals that I had, and achieving them definitely helped. It’s very cliche, but forgiving yourself and being honest with your capabilities is crucial. Hopefully someone reading this can take something away from this. Burnout is no joke, and it has permanently changed my life. TL;DR: 1. Reduction of workload. 2. Prioritize physical well being (food, exercise, sleep), and being honest with my body. 3. Improve mental well being. 4. Start experimenting, and relearning how to learn/work.
• jac_no_k 6y ago
  I wish we had better metrics to measure stress. Is it okay to push harder? From a physical exertion perspective, I think we have it. Recovery Time: https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=8ImmxVkZMh4EYYq5Zp2bR8 https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=8ImmxVkZMh4EYYq5Zp2bR8 From a stress level perspective, I think it exists. Body Battery: https://www.garmin.com/en-US/blog/fitness/5-reasons-your-body-battery-running-low/ https://www.garmin.com/en-US/blog/fitness/5-reasons-your-bod... It took me multiple visits with a therapist to find that I need to have more self-care, otherwise I fall off a cliff. I need to take care of myself to be able to help others. What that is to be able to recognize symptoms and have techniques for coping with the stressors that have become too much. I still struggle these days. The metrics from the "Body Battery" and "Stress Levels" let me acknowledge that I've had a bad day and need to rest.
• k__ 6y ago
  Being consistent in doing the right thing is more important than pushing yourself. All three may be crucial to become world class at something, but consistency beats the average by a huge margin.
• sharadov 6y ago
  I think it comes down to certain people and what they are driving towards, my belief is that if you are the 0.1% who have the stamina and you find that goal that you are willing to live and die for, then its magic. For everyone else > there is burnout.
• nbzso 6y ago
  Balance can be found within. Only when we are capable to remove outside motivation and create internal meaning things start to click and the idea of pushing one self towards a goal is healthy. Health and natural harmony must be the end goal of our lives. Burn outs are dangerous and no monetary or life achievement reward can compensate the loss.
• sriku 6y ago
  On reading this and reflecting on personal experience also, there have been instances where I've pushed myself and there have been instances where I've been under stress. The two are not identical sets though - relatively little overlap actually. The pushing myself towards a goal or exceeding some benchmark wasn't generally stressful ... it was exhausting sure, but more thrilling than stressful. Other times when I've been stressed I haven't really enjoyed it as much as the pushing. I suppose one aspect is intrinsic motivation versus external factors. The post uses mountains as an imagery to indicate pushing yourself. Even in exactly that endeavour, I've had physical struggle, but have not felt stressed but more in tune with the climb (not a pro level by any stretch) and enjoying it at the bottom of it all. Any others who think we may be confusing "stress" with "pushing yourself"?
• chuckcode 6y ago
  Your next push is only as good as your last recovery. I'm surprised how often people focus on the work and neglect the recovery phase like nutrition, sleep, etc.
• 6nf 6y ago
  When I was young a wise old man once told me: 'Push harder until something breaks, then back off just a little bit' He was talking about something else but I think it's good advice in general
• danybittel 6y ago
  In my experience, and what the article also mentions, despite the title: it is fundamentally different if you push yourself, or if you're pushed by circumstances. Pushing yourself, to file the taxes, finish your personal project, go for a run, lookup something in wikipedia.. that is almost always good. Being pushed by clients, the organization, dead lines. Often bad. My theory, burnout and stress, happen in environments where you receive responsibilities without the power to fulfill them.
  • brnt 6y ago
    This creates the false impression there is a neat separation between internal and external pressure. In reality, life is a tangle. You're pushing your taxes because you had a busy quarter at work getting that project out the door. Your pushing your running because you've been overeating due to stress at work/with kids/etc. Your pushing your personal project because dealing with a personal situation is just too much right now. Maybe you're pushing because you drank the koolaid (and who hasn't?) that you should 'live life to it's fullest' and be busy every waking second. In general, pushing is I think a crutch that we sometimes need to use, but probably should use a little as possible. In an ideal life, all those things would fit in naturally. I find accepting limits, revising my priorities, and taking freedom I actually have (as opposed to me and/or society being trained to not recognising it) to do what feels good is a better approach. Discipline is not in pushing, discipline is in understanding yourself, your environment and setting honest priorities.
  • waylandsmithers 6y ago
    > Being pushed by clients, the organization, dead lines. Often bad. I disagree with this part, respectfully of course, based on my own personal experience. I can see how external forces do lead to poor decision making and short sightedness; on the other hand I also think of the vast ways I've grown and new things I've learned from designers who drew something I originally thought was impossible, or clients who wanted something built in a language I'd never had any interest in using before. Generally speaking these external forces may push you beyond the limits of your own imagination.
• bori 6y ago
  > Stress isn’t good or bad. It’s a tool. In small doses it’s good, but too much of a good thing becomes a bad thing pretty quickly. Actually, I think this is a wrong rule of thumb. In my experience, there is more of a "barbell dynamics" (Taleb): I can take a lot of stress at once, but then I need some time to recover. I find this perfectly healthy and it grows me as a human being. On the other hand, when I'm under constant stress with no relief in sight, that's the real killer.
• Tcane 6y ago
  > Increase your sense of control Please note this says "your sense of" not "your actual control". This step so often fails for me because I realise I have no actual control over anything relevant, so I get screwed right out of the starting blocks. How are you supposed to develop a sense of control when the idea of any actual control in your life is false?