6 ms·

People keep saying killing net neutrality was bad...but has there been actually been anything tangible that came out of killing it?

zaroth 6y ago
Well Netflix has to have been running at multiples of their regular bandwidth the last year, and at least anecdotally my experience has been flawless, and I haven't read about any widespread issues with Netflix streaming. It certainly seems the free market was able to deal with it. One thing I'm really happy with is how the FCC ran the $9.2 billion auction for the RDOF (Rural Digital Opportunity Fund) subsidies. Although I don't have hard numbers, my impression is that the USF (Universal Service Fund) is a typical government boondoggle, and the RDOF auction format was a pretty innovative way to distribute the funds. For a minute there it looked like they would try to exclude SpaceX from bidding in the high bandwidth / low latency tier, but ultimately they went with taking a chance on their unproven tech and they were able to win $885 million in subsidies.
- ASalazarMX 6y ago
  Netflix has a wide distribution infrastructure, both in physical data centers and in cloud providers. Fast.com will usually give you sustained fast speeds even if your overall internet access is spotty. IIRC, some people were able to watch Netflix even when there were global internet outages. Their team is amazing.
  - ulucs 6y ago
    Chaos engineering really pays off
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- ncmncm 6y ago
  There is no free market in communication. "Was able to deal with it" is a curious turn of phrase: Yes, there are still companies. But has Americans' access to communication kept pace with the technology and with the rest of the world? Very, very far from it. Americans, collectively, pay far more, for far fewer bits, than others in the world, particularly once you get just a few miles away from a city center. It is telling how much higher prices are in places where competition has been curtailed by the FCC's failures, and how much higher even prices where two services operate are, than in other countries. The number of states where towns have been forbidden to operate a municipal network also reveals our poor condition. America is a third-world country in communication, just as it is in infant mortality. It is not accidental. There are reasons that a cable service is the most hated company in the US, more even than Cargill, Archer Daniels Midland, or Koch Industries, which might deserve it more.
- aaomidi 6y ago
  From your profile it seems like you live in MA right? https://www.ncsl.org/research/telecommunications-and-information-technology/net-neutrality-legislation-in-states.aspx https://www.ncsl.org/research/telecommunications-and-informa... Your state has net neutrality. https://www.naruc.org/nrri/nrri-activities/net-neutrality-tracker/ https://www.naruc.org/nrri/nrri-activities/net-neutrality-tr...
  - zaroth 6y ago
    I don’t think any of the Net Neutrality bills in MA ever actually became law. But with the way the internet actually works, it’s not clear that state-level regulation can be effect in this area, since packets will frequently cross state lines.
    - aaomidi 6y ago
      The issue is low level ISPs. And yes they have become law.
      - zaroth 6y ago
        Which MA net neutrality bill has been signed into law?
ASalazarMX 6y ago
Here in Mexico, the biggest cellular company, Telcel, offers packages with "Unlimited Social Networks". Unlimited, in their language, means Facebook, WhatsApp and Twitter don't count towards your data limit. This seemed like a good thing, but with the announce of WhatsApp sharing data with Facebook, many people have changed to Telegram or Signal. Some of them will return to WhatsApp because switching actually costs them money. Like USA, Mexico was unable to stop legislation against net neutrality. The erosion it's just starting.
jjoonathan 6y ago
The long term plan is to raise rates on unfettered bandwidth and zero-rate first party streaming. Isn't that already happening in mobile? In any case, it's not a business plan they can enact tomorrow, they have to build out the services first and they would be wise to boil the frog in order to avoid legislative attention.
wilde 6y ago
All of the ISPs merged with media companies, instituted data caps, and then exempted their in house media from the data caps. So yeah, fairly substantial. https://www.theverge.com/net-neutrality https://www.theverge.com/net-neutrality
- parineum 6y ago
  > All of the ISPs merged with media companies, instituted data caps, and then exempted their in house media from the data caps. All of them? From your link, looks like it's ATT who did that. Cox, my ISP, instituted a data cap before the repeal. Furthermore, data caps have zero to do with net neutrality. Preferential billing and routing based on source or destination is certainly more possible with a data cap but data caps are net neutral by themselves. Data caps are cancer but they aren't going anywhere unless there's competition. Competition may also make net neutrality, as a political issue, obsolete. Net neutrality seems like a red herring to keep the telecom regulatory capture off the front page.
  - kevincox 6y ago
    The data cap isn't the issue. The issue is excluding some services (especially their own). This is basically a monopolization move.
- solarkraft 6y ago
  Zero-rating is not against european net neutrality regulations, by the way, but to be fair data caps are (mostly) only a thing for mobile connections here.
  - tinus_hn 6y ago
    Zero rating is against the law in the EU: https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/15/europes-top-court-says-net-neutrality-rules-bar-zero-rating/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/15/europes-top-court-says-net...
- brutal_chaos_ 6y ago
  Yep, Comcast instituted a cap in my area. $10/1GB over, if I remember the "agreement I didn't sign" correctly. Edit to add: I've blown the cap in a 2 week period. It is ridiculous
postalrat 6y ago
I'm 99% certain centurylink is limiting bandwidth to youtube/twitch/netflix/etc in my area.
- fingerlocks 6y ago
  There are QoS settings for streaming media on your CL provided router. If you changed routers or modified these settings you may be unintentionally de-prioritizing these services.
  - postalrat 6y ago
    I've use the centurylink router and my own. No difference. Fiber connection with no wireless. Often these services are slow even though its the only internet traffic.
aaomidi 6y ago
Most of HN wouldn't notice. https://www.naruc.org/nrri/nrri-activities/net-neutrality-tracker/ https://www.naruc.org/nrri/nrri-activities/net-neutrality-tr...
AndrewUnmuted 6y ago
Those who were against killing net neutrality - on the grounds that it would grant corporations the power to censor our online experience - are now in favor of other corporations censoring our online experiences. So, that's a pretty terrible outcome that came from killing it - as bewildering and hard to explain as it may be.
- Can_Not 6y ago
  Baselessly asserting technologically literate people and anti-parler people are the same group? That's a bold agendapost.
noodle 6y ago
IMO major consequences from this repeal has been very slow to roll out due to states threatening to implement their own local NN laws, which would create a really painful, fragmented legal web for companies to have to traverse. Some ISPs are doing some stuff, but nothing too out of control.
Triv888 6y ago
I keep hearing this on HN but how can it be a bad thing to protect net neutrality?

zaroth 6y ago

Well Netflix has to have been running at multiples of their regular bandwidth the last year, and at least anecdotally my experience has been flawless, and I haven't read about any widespread issues with Netflix streaming. It certainly seems the free market was able to deal with it. One thing I'm really happy with is how the FCC ran the $9.2 billion auction for the RDOF (Rural Digital Opportunity Fund) subsidies. Although I don't have hard numbers, my impression is that the USF (Universal Service Fund) is a typical government boondoggle, and the RDOF auction format was a pretty innovative way to distribute the funds. For a minute there it looked like they would try to exclude SpaceX from bidding in the high bandwidth / low latency tier, but ultimately they went with taking a chance on their unproven tech and they were able to win $885 million in subsidies.

ASalazarMX 6y ago
Netflix has a wide distribution infrastructure, both in physical data centers and in cloud providers. Fast.com will usually give you sustained fast speeds even if your overall internet access is spotty. IIRC, some people were able to watch Netflix even when there were global internet outages. Their team is amazing.
- ulucs 6y ago
  Chaos engineering really pays off
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
ncmncm 6y ago
There is no free market in communication. "Was able to deal with it" is a curious turn of phrase: Yes, there are still companies. But has Americans' access to communication kept pace with the technology and with the rest of the world? Very, very far from it. Americans, collectively, pay far more, for far fewer bits, than others in the world, particularly once you get just a few miles away from a city center. It is telling how much higher prices are in places where competition has been curtailed by the FCC's failures, and how much higher even prices where two services operate are, than in other countries. The number of states where towns have been forbidden to operate a municipal network also reveals our poor condition. America is a third-world country in communication, just as it is in infant mortality. It is not accidental. There are reasons that a cable service is the most hated company in the US, more even than Cargill, Archer Daniels Midland, or Koch Industries, which might deserve it more.
aaomidi 6y ago
From your profile it seems like you live in MA right? https://www.ncsl.org/research/telecommunications-and-information-technology/net-neutrality-legislation-in-states.aspx https://www.ncsl.org/research/telecommunications-and-informa... Your state has net neutrality. https://www.naruc.org/nrri/nrri-activities/net-neutrality-tracker/ https://www.naruc.org/nrri/nrri-activities/net-neutrality-tr...
- zaroth 6y ago
  I don’t think any of the Net Neutrality bills in MA ever actually became law. But with the way the internet actually works, it’s not clear that state-level regulation can be effect in this area, since packets will frequently cross state lines.
  - aaomidi 6y ago
    The issue is low level ISPs. And yes they have become law.
    - zaroth 6y ago
      Which MA net neutrality bill has been signed into law?

ASalazarMX 6y ago

Here in Mexico, the biggest cellular company, Telcel, offers packages with "Unlimited Social Networks". Unlimited, in their language, means Facebook, WhatsApp and Twitter don't count towards your data limit. This seemed like a good thing, but with the announce of WhatsApp sharing data with Facebook, many people have changed to Telegram or Signal. Some of them will return to WhatsApp because switching actually costs them money. Like USA, Mexico was unable to stop legislation against net neutrality. The erosion it's just starting.

jjoonathan 6y ago

The long term plan is to raise rates on unfettered bandwidth and zero-rate first party streaming. Isn't that already happening in mobile? In any case, it's not a business plan they can enact tomorrow, they have to build out the services first and they would be wise to boil the frog in order to avoid legislative attention.

wilde 6y ago

All of the ISPs merged with media companies, instituted data caps, and then exempted their in house media from the data caps. So yeah, fairly substantial. https://www.theverge.com/net-neutrality https://www.theverge.com/net-neutrality

parineum 6y ago
> All of the ISPs merged with media companies, instituted data caps, and then exempted their in house media from the data caps. All of them? From your link, looks like it's ATT who did that. Cox, my ISP, instituted a data cap before the repeal. Furthermore, data caps have zero to do with net neutrality. Preferential billing and routing based on source or destination is certainly more possible with a data cap but data caps are net neutral by themselves. Data caps are cancer but they aren't going anywhere unless there's competition. Competition may also make net neutrality, as a political issue, obsolete. Net neutrality seems like a red herring to keep the telecom regulatory capture off the front page.
- kevincox 6y ago
  The data cap isn't the issue. The issue is excluding some services (especially their own). This is basically a monopolization move.
solarkraft 6y ago
Zero-rating is not against european net neutrality regulations, by the way, but to be fair data caps are (mostly) only a thing for mobile connections here.
- tinus_hn 6y ago
  Zero rating is against the law in the EU: https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/15/europes-top-court-says-net-neutrality-rules-bar-zero-rating/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/15/europes-top-court-says-net...
brutal_chaos_ 6y ago
Yep, Comcast instituted a cap in my area. $10/1GB over, if I remember the "agreement I didn't sign" correctly. Edit to add: I've blown the cap in a 2 week period. It is ridiculous

postalrat 6y ago

I'm 99% certain centurylink is limiting bandwidth to youtube/twitch/netflix/etc in my area.

fingerlocks 6y ago
There are QoS settings for streaming media on your CL provided router. If you changed routers or modified these settings you may be unintentionally de-prioritizing these services.
- postalrat 6y ago
  I've use the centurylink router and my own. No difference. Fiber connection with no wireless. Often these services are slow even though its the only internet traffic.

aaomidi 6y ago

Most of HN wouldn't notice. https://www.naruc.org/nrri/nrri-activities/net-neutrality-tracker/ https://www.naruc.org/nrri/nrri-activities/net-neutrality-tr...

AndrewUnmuted 6y ago

Those who were against killing net neutrality - on the grounds that it would grant corporations the power to censor our online experience - are now in favor of other corporations censoring our online experiences. So, that's a pretty terrible outcome that came from killing it - as bewildering and hard to explain as it may be.

Can_Not 6y ago
Baselessly asserting technologically literate people and anti-parler people are the same group? That's a bold agendapost.

noodle 6y ago

IMO major consequences from this repeal has been very slow to roll out due to states threatening to implement their own local NN laws, which would create a really painful, fragmented legal web for companies to have to traverse. Some ISPs are doing some stuff, but nothing too out of control.

Triv888 6y ago

I keep hearing this on HN but how can it be a bad thing to protect net neutrality?