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At this point, what stops TSMC from jacking up the price on future contracts? Can Samsung do it?
by bicolao 6y ago
At this point, what stops TSMC from jacking up the price on future contracts? Can Samsung do it?
- amelius 6y agoYes, they should charge Apple 30% of their revenue. Also, they should insist to change "Made in China, designed in California" into "Made in China, High-tech from Taiwan, rest of the design from California". If they don't comply, Apple should be thrown out of the FabStore.
- duxup 6y agoWhy?
- killtimeatwork 6y ago> "Made in China, High-tech from Taiwan, rest of the design from California" Aren't the CPU-making machines actually coming from The Netherlands and TSMC is "just" using them to produce the chips?
- amelius 6y agoI bet Intel would use them for their 5nm process if they knew how.
- amluto 6y agoThe EUV sources are just light sources. Calling them chip making machines is like calling a very expensive stove a Michelin-starred restaurant.
- detaro 6y agoASML is making more than "just light sources". (indeed the "light source" part of their photolitography machines is something they bought a company from the US for - the entire industry has supply chains spanning the world, so attributing it to countries makes not that much sense IMHO)
- amluto 6y agoInteresting, I stand corrected.
- totalZero 6y agoI think of them as Si printers with incredibly precise optics. There is certainly something missing in your analogy.
- ahartmetz 6y agoYeah, it's like inkjet printer vs a little hose that squirts ink, only more so.
- imtringued 6y ago
- vardump 6y agoUsually I don't care much about humor on HN, but you owe me a new keyboard.
- wicket 6y ago>Also, they should insist to change "Made in China, designed in California" into "Made in China, High-tech from Taiwan, rest of the design from California". Cambridge, England (Arm) should also be in this mix.
- mhh__ 6y agoThe cores are in-house apple, so that's a bit strenuous
- JohnJamesRambo 6y agoI want this so much.
- cma 6y agoASML potentially has an even bigger hold on things as they supply TSMC, Samsung, and Intel with the EUV mirror optics.
- the8472 6y agoZeiss is making the optics, ASML is making the integrated EUV machine.
- cma 6y agoAh, I though ASML are the mirrors. So they make essentially the light source?
- the8472 6y agoASML sells the complete EUV lithography machine. Zeiss is one of their partners that supplies the optics. Trumpf makes the pulsed lasers which turn tin droplets into plasma which then produces the EUV light. They say they have many more research and supply partners, but those are the ones that I've found mentioned by name in press releases.
- cma 6y agoDo they design the actual tin droplet plasma chamber thing, or are they essentially a systems integrator from a bunch of suppliers putting it all together into their overall design to their specs?
- the8472 6y agoThis question doesn't make sense, both options involve designing the thing. Anyway, it's not even about designing it. The technology had to be invented first. It would be crazy to use exploding metal drops in a vacuum chamber where you want to manufacture microchips if there were any other options but there were zero options before. There are few applications of EUV in general, and currently only one at those luminosity levels. So R&D is a big component here, not just manufacturing. And even if we only look at the manufacturing part, this isn't some "simple" vacuum chamber gadget either, only ~30 machines were built last year and they cost more than 100M$ each. For comparison, four of these cost as much as one Wendelstein-7X. This is more of a big, barely productized science project shipped out as soon as it works just good enough for the chip manufacturers.
- akmarinov 6y agoThey can do it for a time. Apple can then use some of the hundreds of billions they have on hand to prop up one of TSMC's competitors, as they did with the RAM suppliers.
- totalZero 6y agoWho, Samsung? Somehow I don't see Apple doing that. It's not a particularly populous industry; no other foundry (ignoring the blacklisted Chinese companies) but Samsung, TSMC, and Intel is involved in sub-10nm lithography, to my knowledge.
- akmarinov 6y agoTrue, but hundreds of billions can get you a lot, when your main business is affected.
- shrewduser 6y agoIntel would probably be keen.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- andromeduck 6y agoI would love to see Intel buy Intel's fabs, glofo or something.
- ghettoimp 6y agoIt does seem like TSMC has strong leverage since it would take Apple a lot of time and work to move to a competitor. On the other hand, the incentives seem pretty well aligned. TSMC presumably makes a lot of money when Apple is successful and sells a lot of chips. Having a customer that is demanding and willing to pay for huge volumes of bleeding edge parts helps TSMC build on their lead. Having early access to the best process helps Apple differentiate, and their business model gives them the margins to afford all of this. Anyway, I don't see why either side would want to really change this setup.