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Radio users reminded not to use radios in crimes
- PaulHoule 6y agoDidn't they put some fella in jail because he planned a hit on the Playstation Network years ago?
- chmod600 6y agoWhat is the practical implication? I guess they are saying: "don't involve radios in your crime, or else the feds will be after you, too".
- tw04 6y agoI think they're saying if you use the radio to commit your crime they can and will pile on additional federal charges. I'm sure they saw the paramilitary LARPers at the Capitol carrying radios capable of the frequencies in question. I'm sure some of them are on video using the radios and are about to be charged.
- mikestew 6y agoThe practical implication is “after we catch you, if we find that a radio as used, we will add that to the list of charges, perhaps making you more compliant come plea bargain time.”
- walrus01 6y agoIt's actually quite hard to get the FCC to fine you, you have to do something very clearly illegal for a very long period of time, and ignore the warnings given... Such as the WISP in UT some years back which continued to operate PtMP last mile 5 GHz stuff in the DFS radar bands, and got fined $25,000. If you go through the notices of apparent liability issued by the FCC, which are all public, the individual persons getting fined are egregiously dumb, such as the guy who operated a multi band cellular jammer on his daily commute north/south on the interstate freeway in Florida. Or you have to do something like operate a pirate FM radio station for many months at a time always from the same fixed location. The FCC's enforcement bureau does not have a great number of staff or resources to go chasing down everything.
- technick 6y agoBack after Trump cut the FCC budget, I heard the number of active staff patrolling the airwaves went down to < 11. Think of that... 11 people for all of the United States. I know they have listening stations in various areas, but still 11 people can't effectively police the whole United States.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- bashcoder 6y agoBy way of documentation, this refers to FCC Part 97 rules, specifically §97.113(4): "Music using a phone emission except as specifically provided elsewhere in this section; communications intended to facilitate a criminal act; messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning, except as otherwise provided herein; obscene or indecent words or language; or false or deceptive messages, signals or identification."
- tyingq 6y agoThat sounds like what's being said, though I don't know how practical it will be to try and monitor/triangulate/whatever a bunch of short range, low-power FRS walkie-talkies. Maybe it just means if you get arrested and have one on your person, you get more charges.
- unethical_ban 6y agotl;dr : How to turn a local or state crime into a federal one. It isn't particularly shocking that this is a statute. I wonder if ham radio was used in the capitol riot.
- chociej 6y agoI thought I read on Twitter a few days ago that it almost certainly was. Someone also linked to an article that I now can't find about extremists setting up an IP link on the amateur bands. All I could think was the instant they initiate a TLS session they've committed a federal crime.
- clint 6y agoI've personally seen a couple photographs of insurrectionists with what looked like Baofeng (ironic?) style radios with police-style handsets that groups were using to coordinate at some level.
- balozi 6y agoWhat exactly is a "police-style handset"? Definitions are important because soon we'll have journalist breathlessly writing about people arrested with police-style communication gear, military-style radios, and assault radios.
- mikey_p 6y agoEven if amateur radio bands weren't, the announcement also includes FRS and GMRS which are very common and almost certainly used in the attack on the Capitol
- pnw_hazor 6y agoAll 2-way walkie-talkie type radios are covered by the FCC.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 6y agoJust a note that listening in - even to police scanner frequencies - counts as legal use.
- kmeisthax 6y agoNot only that, but you actually are prohibited from encrypting ham radio transmissions. This means, practically speaking, no ham Internet, as everything mandates encryption online nowadays.
- Shared404 6y agoMy understanding is that you're allowed to have encrypted communications, but only if the key is public. Whether or not that counts as encryption, I don't know.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y agoWell, the whole purpose and ethos of ham radio is for everything to be public, and anyone can listen in to a conversation, so I think that's a good thing.
- moftz 6y agoExcept for the various proprietary voice codecs out there.
- jMyles 6y agoIs this a sideways slight against AREDN? Because I still think AREDN is pretty cool.
- samizdis 6y agoI wonder where the borders lie between encryption and deliberate obfuscation - say, by native speakers of a little-known language (which was done for some WWII radio transmissions by the US [1]) and also to a far lesser extent by old-time London gangs using Cockney rhyming slang and variants thereof. [2] [1] https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/american-indian-code-talkers https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/american-indi... [2] https://romanroadlondon.com/cockney-rhyming-slang-history/ https://romanroadlondon.com/cockney-rhyming-slang-history/
- ISL 6y agoCapone went to jail for tax evasion.
- JosephRedfern 6y agoThis might be a dumb question, but is there any information out there about how much official monitoring goes on for amateur bands (and other bands, for that matter)? Are there strategically placed logging stations that allow triangulation of signal origin based on RSSI etc? I guess this stuff is super commonplace in SIGINT, I just don't know much about it.
- op00to 6y agoDepends on what you mean by official. The NRO has geostationary satellites whose sole purpose is to slurp up all RF across its footprint for later analysis. This is not used for FCC rule enforcement. In the Capitol area, it's highly likely multiple agencies are capturing all RF for later analysis. This is also not used for FCC rule enforcement. The FCC has the ability to locate signals using directionfinding equipment, but as mentioned elsewhere, usually that's left to Amateurs themselves on their bands.
- sithadmin 6y agoIn the USA, monitoring is heavily dependent on the amateur radio community, both informally (average operators encountering, then reporting bad actors) and formally via ARRL's volunteer monitoring program (see: http://www.arrl.org/volunteer-monitor-program http://www.arrl.org/volunteer-monitor-program)
- mikey_p 6y agoI think is is a subtle reminder and hint not to use amateur or FRS/GMRS radios in planning things like that attack on the capitol.
- chociej 6y agoHams routinely monitor and triangulate noncompliant stations, and also do staged "fox hunting" games for fun & prestige. But, I don't think it's routine or widespread to monitor the ham bands at scale for illegal or unsavory content.
- op00to 6y agoIt's well known that certain frequencies in the 75m band are "watering holes" for conspiracy theorists and racists.
- jjoonathan 6y agoI can already hear the cries of censorship. "What do you mean crimes aren't protected speech?"
- avmich 6y agoI think more interesting is how to decide in advance if a particular use is use in crime. Before a judge will decide there is a crime.
- WJW 6y agoStep 1: Look at some law books. If it's in there, then it's definitely a crime.
- nickff 6y agoDo you have any idea how many laws there are? In addition to that, regulations aren’t neat and tidy or organized, yet they carry the force of law.
- dschuler 6y agoI think avmich is getting at the idea that some actions may or may not be legal until determined to be a crime, at which point there would be two: the original crime, and using radio to facilitate it. This reminds me of a question on the US immigration card for non-citizens - it asks if the traveler intends to rob a bank. If you want to be let in, you have to check "no" of course, but anyone who then robs a bank while on vacay will face an additional perjury charge. I'm not sure if this accomplishes anything other than the usual "tough on crime" stuff.
- fredophile 6y agoMy understanding is that the purpose of those types of questions is to make it easy to deport you for lying on the immigration paperwork.
- 6y ago
- jdblair 6y agodiscussion from two days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25817320 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25817320
- aktive0 6y agoI'm wondering if this was specifically posted wrt the "deplatforming" as of late. In other words, has there been murmurs of people using radio to coordinate actions now that social media is unavailable to them?
- donatj 6y ago> The Bureau has become aware of discussions on social media platforms suggesting that certain radio services regulated by the Commission may be an alternative to social media platforms So, yes
- chmod600 6y agoRelated: Mexican drug cartels using radios: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21109605 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21109605 A lot of that is probably to reach areas the cartels need to operate that don't have other reliable communication, or have little enough that it would be easily surveiled. Not sure if it applies to urban criminal activity, which is what the ARRL is worried about.
- cozzyd 6y agoIsn't this what the TARS aerostats are supposed to be looking for? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethered_Aerostat_Radar_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethered_Aerostat_Radar_System
- ASalazarMX 6y agoEncrypted radios. Any radio store will sell those, IDK why the rioters skimped on that.
- yodon 6y ago> Encrypted radios. Any radio store will sell those, IDK why the rioters skimped on that. Key distribution. Encrypted radios are useless if no one knows what key to use, and equally useless if everyone knows what key to use. Sharing encryption keys with people you've never met on an open forum is equivalent to giving everyone the keys, just like sharing encryption keys with random people you've never met at public riot is equally equivalent to giving everyone the keys. One of those people you share with will be on the other side, at which point it's game over for your encryption. That said, given the brain trust that invaded the capitol building, I guess you're right, it is surprising they didn't have that added layer of security theater in the form of useless encryption everyone in DC could have been listening to.
- technick 6y agoI remember coming across a job ad for a radio engineer position with the cartel. Can't remember what site it was on but they did offer some pretty good pay, housing and discount programs.
- mrdoornbos 6y agoDon't use... well anything, in crimes. Duh.
- netsharc 6y agoInteresting law. I'm not sure about driving laws, but I would assume if you robbed a bank and drove away, there's no extra clause that says this usage your driving license is illegal?
- hinkley 6y agoIf you cross state lines, you escalate the situation, allowing the Feds to step in. There are other ways to do this of course, but driving is the one you can control the most.
- laurent92 6y agoThere are certainly lots of terms of use, too. I’m betting most of inmates must have lost their gmail account or bank card, for example, which can actually become a severe social problem in repairing the social fabric.
- joshka 6y agoSpeculation: we're just about to see a bunch of secondary offense charges come down for the Capitol riots, or at the very least forfeiture of the equipment. I wonder if the executive order signed the other day might be relevant to this (preventative in its effect rather than complementary)? https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-protecting-americans-overcriminalization-regulatory-reform/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-or...
- bjt2n3904 6y agoPeople who are intending to use radios to commit crimes aren't going to read this and go... "Darn." As a HAM, to the other HAMs who are worried the FCC will use this as justification to curtail your privilges -- they will, and they'll tell you it's necessary for your own safety. Will it make us any safer? Of course not. So where does the real problem lie? The people using radios to commit crimes, or the government using that as justification to restrict freedoms? The answer is: yes.
- ssimpson 6y agoHam isn't an acronym :D
- ASalazarMX 6y agoFor the curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_ham_radio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_ham_radio > At the turn of the 20th century, the terms "ham" and "plug" were used by landline telegraphers to describe an operator "who lacks ability" or who had poor or "ham fisted" skills.
- pnw_hazor 6y agoSimilar to the ATF reminding folks that firearms should not be used to commit crimes.
- numpad0 6y ago> The Bureau has become aware of discussions on social media platforms suggesting that certain radio services regulated by the Commission may be an alternative to social media platforms for groups to communicate and coordinate future activities. “Stop discussing plans for a revolution on amateur radio bands like if we aren’t listening to them, we are, stop believing everything they say on Facebook. I mean, we do encourage civil discussions, but if you’re going to collude on terrorism over the radio we will hold you responsible for that”
- hinkley 6y ago"Go commit crimes elsewhere," is such a /r/WhitePeopleTwitter answer. How about you stop committing High Crimes instead? It's almost as if there are sympathizers/collaborators participating in creating those statements.
- EhhhhSql 6y ago> if you’re going to collude on terrorism over the radio we will hold you responsible for that Ironically, the FBI has a history of not investigating police abuse of power.
- tomjen3 6y agoPresumably they would have a 2nd amendment suit if they were censored for the content of their speech by the agency that runs the amateur radio system, right?
- prudhvis 6y agoWould a group call on WhatsApp/Signal be regarded as radio usage. When working over 4G/5G?.
- hackcasual 6y agoNo. This is specifically about frequencies allocated for amateur and general use. Your cellphone operates on frequencies a commercial entity had licensed
- technofiend 6y agoIf you remember the old Nextel push to talk radios there are plenty of push to talk apps for cellphones that simulate the same functionality. PTT apps are much better suited to group communication than an open conference line where people will constantly talk over each other and background noise is rampant. When I used to play Ingress we'd use Zello with separate channels for each team and a few more for area coordinators. If you really want to get fancy you can get push-to-talk earbuds that connect to your cellphone's headphone jack, assuming you have an old enough cellphone that is. Not that anything I'm saying should be construed as advice for people who want to go commit crimes. Frankly I think the best plan is for everyone to stay at home rather than potentially catching Covid and 5-10 years to boot.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 6y agoA WhatsApp or Signal group call on 2.4Ghz or 5Ghz wifi could be regarded as (illegal encrypted) radio usage depending on whether the "radio" is transmitting as a Part 15 device or a part 97 device.
- astrobe_ 6y ago> The Bureau has become aware of discussions on social media platforms suggesting that certain radio services regulated by the Commission may be an alternative to social media platforms [...] Amateur and Personal Radio Services, however, may not be used to commit or facilitate crimes. The sequitur between "social media platforms" and "commit or facilitate crimes" is quite interesting.
- kube-system 6y agoIn the part you omitted, they recognize legal speech as the other use. > The Bureau recognizes that these services can be used for a wide range of permitted purposes, including speech that is protected under the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. They didn't jump straight to illegal speech as it sounds like you're inferring. They mentioned legal speech first.
- UI_at_80x24 6y agoBaofeng's, Baofengs everywhere. Of all the images I have seen of the attempted coup, I have only seen baofeng radios. These are very cheap ($20'ish) radios that work very poorly (they splatter all over the bands) even when equipped with decent antennas. They barely work when equipped with the stock rubber-duck antennas. It's easy to be a snob about the type of radios that they are using, but that's not even the point. These people are idiots. Bringing their cellphones, recording video of themselves committing felonies and then posting them online. There is already plenty of rules regarding what can/can not be said using amateur radios. There is however no requirement to provide identification before you purchase an amateur radio. Anybody can buy them, and it's based on the honour system to use them according to the law. It's already against the law to use them in a manner that is against the law. Id' like to see this used as a punitive measure against everybody who was using them during the coup. Maximum FCC fine for all of them.
- nimbius 6y agoAs a pinch of salt... If you can get a baofeng to last out of the box longer than a week, and manage to DX a handheld or a repeater further than a parking space away, you should at least win a QRP award and a discount on your technicians test before you get sent to the klink.
- mindcrime 6y agoI've been using my Baofeng for a couple of years now and have no problem working many repeaters here in the Triangle (NC) area. YMMV.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 6y agoSimilarly, my Baofeng has no problem on the many repeaters in the Northern Nevada area. Definitely YMMV.
- jacquesm 6y agoAh, but are you getting your replies on the band that you are transmitting at ;)?
- justjonathan 6y ago>WARNING: AMATEUR AND PERSONAL RADIO SERVICES LICENSEES AND OPERATORS MAY NOT USE RADIO EQUIPMENT TO COMMIT OR FACILITATE CRIMINAL ACTS But if one licenses spectrum, then it is not an offense, in its own right, to facilitate criminal acts? (Though the acts themselves of course still are...)
- hinkley 6y agoThis reminds me of those "trespassing prohibited" signs. Yes, that's why we call it "trespassing" instead of "taking a shortcut".
- blendergeek 6y ago> This reminds me of those "trespassing prohibited" signs. In some places, "taking a shortcut" is legal unless there is a sign saying, "No Trespassing". So those signs actually make sense, depending on local laws.
- jariel 6y agoIf John Candy were alive he would make the perfect headliner for a comedy of fools about this.
- lsh123 6y agoDoes it also apply to WiFi? :)
- bitxbitxbitcoin 6y agoGood question! The way it is normally used: No. However, 2.4GHz and 5Ghz are in the frequencies alloted to licensed Hams so many do set up WiFi networks that can transmit stronger signals than off the shelf consumer wifi devices where this would certainly apply. tldr; No, if you aren't using an external antenna or firmware that would cause your WiFi device to change from being considered a Part 15 device to a Part 97 device under the FCC.
- chociej 6y agoWiFi is in the ISM (Industral, Scientific, and Medical) and certain "unlicensed" radio bands and, while there is spectrum shared between those bands and other services including ham, WiFi usage is regulated differently. This advisory applies to the Amateur Radio Service (ham) and Personal Radio Services (common walkie talkies)
- imdsm 6y agoCould they possibly do it on 20 m so that we can listen in the rest of the world? /s
- jasonhansel 6y agoSomehow I doubt that terrorists will be sending QSL cards...
- GlenTheMachine 6y agoMeanwhile, over on the amateur radio boards, the old dudes are saying this is all a conspiracy theory to take hams off the air, in preparation for... something. Something nefarious the Biden administration is planning. And they wonder why the kids aren't going into amateur radio.
- wglb 6y agoAvoid the sideband frequencies except during contests
- A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago“messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning.” The language is troubling, but the laws on the books in US are already ridiculously broad and overbearing. Usually, the question is more along the lines of what stick you want to use. Just in case you never had a chance, "Three felonies a day" gives will give you an idea where US is now.
- chociej 6y agoThe meaning is clear in context. Anything you transmit should be done so with the intent that anyone could receive and easily decode it to understand its meaning. That's fundamental to the purpose of the amateur service. And it's the tradeoff that hams make for having broad swaths of spectrum and liberal freedom to experiment. Plenty of other bands & services exist if one needs privacy.
- implements 6y agoIt’s a condition of licensed transmission on amateur radio frequencies that the operators are identifiable (give their official call sign as often as is practical) and that what is said is plainly understandable to anyone listening. You can’t do ‘anonymous code talk’ even if you do happen to have a licence. You can’t broadcast music, or do one-to-many messages except to setup one-to-one conversations (ie CQ or during club “nets”) - it’s not free, in fact it’s quite regulated.
- ASalazarMX 6y ago> "Three felonies a day" gives will give you an idea where US is now. When you reach six, USA will qualify as a dystopian wonderland: https://aliceinwonderland.fandom.com/wiki/Six_Impossible_Things https://aliceinwonderland.fandom.com/wiki/Six_Impossible_Thi...
- OnlyOneCannolo 6y agoThe amateur bands are not for general use. They're allocated specifically for skill-building and emergency services, and are regulated accordingly. It's no different than how AM/FM bands are licensed and regulated. You can't just get on the air without a license and say whatever.
- neartheplain 6y agoWere those who used ham bands while storming capitol even licensed? Right message, but maybe addressed to the wrong audience. I’ll bet most of these people use Baofengs purchased on Amazon. It’d be great if Amazon could echo this warning on the relevant product page(s).
- wedowhatwedo 6y agoIf you have been reading sites like www.qrz.com for the last few years, you will see that there were perhaps lots of licensed amateur radio operator terrorists there.
- neartheplain 6y agoNews to me. Have any links? I just clicked through the forums there but didn’t see anything egregious.
- some_random 6y agoI'm sure I'll get a lot of hate for this, but honestly FCC regulation of ham radio is at best antiquated cold war bullshit (ie, crypto bans) and at worst gatekeeping for a bunch of old men who can dox themselves in order to get exclusive access to some bands. Every single person here uses high powered encrypted communication without a license, it's a cell phone.
- bob1029 6y agoHypothetically, if I were to develop some DSSS technique that operates below the noise floor and utilizes a strong AES2 cipher, who the hell cares how I use it?
- wiml 6y agoIf you're "below the noise floor" you may well be under Part 15, which is the "who the hell cares" part of the rules, and you're fine. If your signal is strong enough to interfere with common uses of the band, well, then that's why people care.
- nikitaga 6y ago> Every single person here uses high powered encrypted communication without a license, it's a cell phone. Your cell service provider holds the license. Ham radio exam is not hard, and does not require special training, just some basic knowledge of how radios work and what the regulations are. I don't see what the issue is.
- bdowling 6y ago> Ham radio exam is not hard... Not only that, but every exam question comes from a published pool of questions [0]. If you can memorize the answers to those questions, then you don’t need to learn anything about how radio works at all. [0] http://www.arrl.org/question-pools http://www.arrl.org/question-pools
- generalizations 6y agoYou're missing the point. I would only bother to take the exam if I could use my radio for encrypted packet radio. I'd love to set up a long range meshnet, but it's only useful if it's encrypted. There's a lot of fundamental infrastructure decentralization that can happen once some of the HAM frequencies allow encrypted use.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- WalterBright 6y agoThe local public library has a sign posted saying that unlawful activity is not allowed on the premises.
- technick 6y agoSame in Denver, doesn't seem to stop the homeless from overdosing in the bathroom.
- WalterBright 6y agoMakes you wonder who the sign is for. I doubt that anyone considering committing crimes is going to read the sign and think "oh, I guess I better not."
- AnimalMuppet 6y agoIt's for the public, who wants to think the library is doing something about people overdosing in the bathroom.
- technick 6y agoI remember someone told me at Defcon one year, "Getting your FCC license acknowledges the rules and regulations". Therefor if you ever do anything stupid, they can nail you extra hard for violating that agreement. Its better to not have a license because the first few violations will result in warnings.