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> My net salary is just over 1000€ That's really low, even for poorer European countries. Decent middle-level software engineer in, let's say, Ukraine (no offe

> My net salary is just over 1000€ That's really low, even for poorer European countries. Decent middle-level software engineer in, let's say, Ukraine (no offense meant - it is a good country, just isn't one famous for high incomes), easily makes at least 2k (and I say "at least" - that's awfully underpaid). > that means that i'd need anywhere from ~8 to ~14 years to save as much as they could in a year That's a bit exaggerated figure. It's 100k before taxes (so, around $5.8k/mo), and rent (or mortgage) costs are significantly higher (I believe it's around $1-3k/mo, highly varying depending on where you live and how comfortable you live). And it's not just rent but other expenses as well.

dnpp123 6y ago
> That's really low, even for poorer European countries He said net salary. I know a lot of engineers from C schools in mid-size towns in France who are paid less than 2k euro net.
- Jommi 6y ago
  That's still insanely low. With all these people reporting low salaries in constantly thinking where on earth are you when a European startup is hiring talent :D
- jtwaleson 6y ago
  France is really terrible in terms of SWE compensation. I think I know why. I've had some traineeship / internship requests from French students and their mentality seems so much more like "engineering" career trajectory than "hacker". Engineer: "yes, of course it is normal to be a trainee for 2 years, then a junior for 5, then a medior for 5 and of I'm really good I'll be a senior. I would be really thankful if you consider hiring me." With this mindset you don't expect high wages. Hacker: I am a ninja rockstar, I don't need any certifications and you should be happy if I decide to work for you because I should actually be working at FAANG.
  - erdo 6y ago
    Well... just because a developer claims to be a senior engineer (with only 2 years experience) it doesn't actually make them a senior engineer, it makes them a bullsh*ter :D
    - theshrike79 6y ago
      Just like the fresh out of school CTOs and Principal Engineers in the US. Of course you get a fancy title, you're one of the founders in the company - it doesn't mean you know anything though =)
  - ginko 6y ago
    I'd rather work with the 'engineer' than the 'hacker'.
    - beagle3 6y ago
      I've worked with quite a few people who had "15 years of experience" which would be better described as "one year of experience practiced 15 times". The main thing that such an internship-apprenticeship system guarantees is that the newer generation is well-versed in the ways of the old generation, and will likely have a similar record. In a conservative industry, such as civil engineers building bridges, roads and buildings, and electrical engineers building high-voltage electrical distribution systems, this is what you want -- those industries have converged on good safety records. You want a few people who innovate, but otherwise much prefer to delay the future by 10-20 years than to the potential risks of bringing it sooner. If the same was prevalent in software, we'd likely still be coding in COBOL on IBM mainframes. Tesla is a very interesting case study - actually managing to bring the future sooner (with relatively small accumulated damage so far) in a field where being conservative is considered a virtue. If you'd rather work with the apprenticed person, this model still exists in banks, who are willing to pay big bucks to maintain their cobol backends.
      - ginko 6y ago
        I didn't refer to the apprenticeship model. I referred to the bullshitting 'hacker' type referring to themselves as a ninja and acting like the work he's doing is beneath them. I wouldn't want to work with that guy. And it taking 5 years of work experience for you to call yourself an experienced engineer does not mean we'd be stuck with COBOL. It usually takes that long where I work and it's not a bank. You're very likely to use our products right now.
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  You can play with the numbers here [1] for France. You're right that beginners can be around 30k€ before taxes (although that's a little low), which gives less than 2000€/month after taxes. [1] https://mon-entreprise.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-net https://mon-entreprise.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-net
- eecks 6y ago
  What is a C school?
- imtringued 6y ago
  I am honestly surprised. Even a bottom of the barrel public entry level job with worse compensation than private industry pays at least 2k€ (after taxes) here and that's in a place where you can get an apartment for 500€ per month.
- mike_k 6y ago
  In Ukraine, however, the reality is that most of the engineers are employed as PE (private entrepreneurs) with some additional things included, like a decent insurance. And the overall tax for this scheme is just 5% so far. No other benefits or bonuses usually. So, NET almost always equals GROSS here. In absolute numbers it is something like USD 25K - 70K per year for junior - senior/TL range.
KronisLV 6y ago
Agreed, my particular situation might be caused by the fact that i initially started working at my present company before finishing my bachelor's and am currently working on finishing my master's. Since the initial salary i was hired with was even lower, it has never quite caught up - job hopping might address that. But even so, the average net salary in this country is even lower than that (overall, not for software developers) and i don't have kids or a car to take care of, hence others could also have those expenses to consider. Thus, factoring those in, it might indeed take a substantial amount of time to create any savings. For example, i presently have 25k€ in my bank account, though it has taken about 4 years to get there. That's not to say that people in US or other places also don't have similar factors to deal with, like healthcare costs or student loans.
- gerlv 6y ago
  I was in the same position when I started working at the first company. They just continued to pay the same salary after I graduated. Until you reach senior level, the best strategy for maximising salary is to switch to better paying jobs every ~2 years. Also, I assume you are from Latvia as you have LV in your username - 1k is waaay to low. I have friends making 3.5k eur a month. You can find mid level positions that pay more than 2k/m
  - KronisLV 6y ago
    Yep, that's the plan! There is also something to be said about working for different companies and experiencing different approaches to development, different tools, tech stacks and all of the other stuff you might not see if you stick at one place for a long time. Though that's more of an auxiliary reason for switching jobs, whereas OP was talking about finances in particular.
krageon 6y ago
If Ukraine legitimately has an average net salary of 2k for a SWE it's better than the actually good parts of the EU. I really, really doubt that this is true.
- chupy 6y ago
  It's the same or even more in Romania (depending on the parts of the country), I do not know why everyone is surprised about it. There are a lot of benefits there that SWE (and IT in general get) - less taxes if you have a CS degree or you can open a company or be self employed and pay next to nothing in taxes. Since there is an increase demand and not enough supply salaries keep rising. In the end you might get a better deal regarding COL if you quit your western European salaried job and move to eastern Europe.
- jonp888 6y ago
  Ukraine has special tax laws for Software Developers - even if they are working full time on-site for a single company, they can register themselves as freelancers and pay virtually no income tax.

dnpp123 6y ago

> That's really low, even for poorer European countries He said net salary. I know a lot of engineers from C schools in mid-size towns in France who are paid less than 2k euro net.

Jommi 6y ago
That's still insanely low. With all these people reporting low salaries in constantly thinking where on earth are you when a European startup is hiring talent :D
jtwaleson 6y ago
France is really terrible in terms of SWE compensation. I think I know why. I've had some traineeship / internship requests from French students and their mentality seems so much more like "engineering" career trajectory than "hacker". Engineer: "yes, of course it is normal to be a trainee for 2 years, then a junior for 5, then a medior for 5 and of I'm really good I'll be a senior. I would be really thankful if you consider hiring me." With this mindset you don't expect high wages. Hacker: I am a ninja rockstar, I don't need any certifications and you should be happy if I decide to work for you because I should actually be working at FAANG.
- erdo 6y ago
  Well... just because a developer claims to be a senior engineer (with only 2 years experience) it doesn't actually make them a senior engineer, it makes them a bullsh*ter :D
  - theshrike79 6y ago
    Just like the fresh out of school CTOs and Principal Engineers in the US. Of course you get a fancy title, you're one of the founders in the company - it doesn't mean you know anything though =)
- ginko 6y ago
  I'd rather work with the 'engineer' than the 'hacker'.
  - beagle3 6y ago
    I've worked with quite a few people who had "15 years of experience" which would be better described as "one year of experience practiced 15 times". The main thing that such an internship-apprenticeship system guarantees is that the newer generation is well-versed in the ways of the old generation, and will likely have a similar record. In a conservative industry, such as civil engineers building bridges, roads and buildings, and electrical engineers building high-voltage electrical distribution systems, this is what you want -- those industries have converged on good safety records. You want a few people who innovate, but otherwise much prefer to delay the future by 10-20 years than to the potential risks of bringing it sooner. If the same was prevalent in software, we'd likely still be coding in COBOL on IBM mainframes. Tesla is a very interesting case study - actually managing to bring the future sooner (with relatively small accumulated damage so far) in a field where being conservative is considered a virtue. If you'd rather work with the apprenticed person, this model still exists in banks, who are willing to pay big bucks to maintain their cobol backends.
    - ginko 6y ago
      I didn't refer to the apprenticeship model. I referred to the bullshitting 'hacker' type referring to themselves as a ninja and acting like the work he's doing is beneath them. I wouldn't want to work with that guy. And it taking 5 years of work experience for you to call yourself an experienced engineer does not mean we'd be stuck with COBOL. It usually takes that long where I work and it's not a bank. You're very likely to use our products right now.
benhurmarcel 6y ago
You can play with the numbers here [1] for France. You're right that beginners can be around 30k€ before taxes (although that's a little low), which gives less than 2000€/month after taxes. [1] https://mon-entreprise.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-net https://mon-entreprise.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-net
eecks 6y ago
What is a C school?
imtringued 6y ago
I am honestly surprised. Even a bottom of the barrel public entry level job with worse compensation than private industry pays at least 2k€ (after taxes) here and that's in a place where you can get an apartment for 500€ per month.
mike_k 6y ago
In Ukraine, however, the reality is that most of the engineers are employed as PE (private entrepreneurs) with some additional things included, like a decent insurance. And the overall tax for this scheme is just 5% so far. No other benefits or bonuses usually. So, NET almost always equals GROSS here. In absolute numbers it is something like USD 25K - 70K per year for junior - senior/TL range.

KronisLV 6y ago

Agreed, my particular situation might be caused by the fact that i initially started working at my present company before finishing my bachelor's and am currently working on finishing my master's. Since the initial salary i was hired with was even lower, it has never quite caught up - job hopping might address that. But even so, the average net salary in this country is even lower than that (overall, not for software developers) and i don't have kids or a car to take care of, hence others could also have those expenses to consider. Thus, factoring those in, it might indeed take a substantial amount of time to create any savings. For example, i presently have 25k€ in my bank account, though it has taken about 4 years to get there. That's not to say that people in US or other places also don't have similar factors to deal with, like healthcare costs or student loans.

gerlv 6y ago
I was in the same position when I started working at the first company. They just continued to pay the same salary after I graduated. Until you reach senior level, the best strategy for maximising salary is to switch to better paying jobs every ~2 years. Also, I assume you are from Latvia as you have LV in your username - 1k is waaay to low. I have friends making 3.5k eur a month. You can find mid level positions that pay more than 2k/m
- KronisLV 6y ago
  Yep, that's the plan! There is also something to be said about working for different companies and experiencing different approaches to development, different tools, tech stacks and all of the other stuff you might not see if you stick at one place for a long time. Though that's more of an auxiliary reason for switching jobs, whereas OP was talking about finances in particular.

krageon 6y ago

If Ukraine legitimately has an average net salary of 2k for a SWE it's better than the actually good parts of the EU. I really, really doubt that this is true.

chupy 6y ago
It's the same or even more in Romania (depending on the parts of the country), I do not know why everyone is surprised about it. There are a lot of benefits there that SWE (and IT in general get) - less taxes if you have a CS degree or you can open a company or be self employed and pay next to nothing in taxes. Since there is an increase demand and not enough supply salaries keep rising. In the end you might get a better deal regarding COL if you quit your western European salaried job and move to eastern Europe.
jonp888 6y ago
Ukraine has special tax laws for Software Developers - even if they are working full time on-site for a single company, they can register themselves as freelancers and pay virtually no income tax.