22 ms·

Facebook to staff: Avoid company-branded clothing for own safety

306 points by pera 6y ago

WhyNotHugo 6y ago
Is this _really_ just due to the Trump scandal? Facebook is doing so much shady stuff to people, I wouldn't be surprised if some people took their hatred too far (I dearly do hope nobody takes it out on random employees though!).
- loceng 6y ago
  That group of people manipulated by Trump et al just stormed the Capitol and people died. There were ~74 million who voted for Trump, how many are willing to go so far, only God knows.
  - jokethrowaway 6y ago
    If they had more people willing to storm the Capitol for the election results they would have gone already. I don't see how these extremists could benefit from act of violence on private business or citizens. Despite the deaths, I'm glad this happened, at least we now have example of rioters on both sides. Maybe the third party will gain the remaining sane people in the USA?
    - jacquesm 6y ago
      This was nothing to be glad about, no matter what side you are on.
      - jokethrowaway 6y ago
        You can find a positive spin for any event, despite how terrible it may be.
        splendidHaiku 6y ago
        Overall it had no positive spin - so no. Also there is a difference between "This was nothing to be glad about" and "There was nothing to be glad about".
        jokethrowaway 6y ago
        It's all relative. From where I stand a few deaths are not that important. The more political parties in the USA taint themselves the greater the chance people will change the status quo. The USA is one of the few places were people are crazy enough to change things.
        refurb 6y ago
        Ok. Give me the positive spin on 9/11.
        jokethrowaway 6y ago
        This generation realised waging useless wars is not beneficial and it's not a good response to act of terrors. You can find many, depending on your opinions
        refurb 6y ago
        Hmmm... but we did wage two wars based on 9/11. And are still killing people with drones.
    - eertami 6y ago
      Until the US implements proportional representation, any third party is always going to have an inconsequential amount of votes.
      - jokethrowaway 6y ago
        If governments spending keeps increasing, you'll probably reach a point in which it won't be that unrealistic. There are European states in which government overreach wrecked the economy so much that anti-establishment parties got elected. You can see trump as one meager step in that direction. I think the natural conclusion, after seeing that things are not changing by voting mainstream parties, is to actually vote someone else.
        pjc50 6y ago
        > There are European states in which government overreach wrecked the economy so much that anti-establishment parties got elected. [citation needed]
        jokethrowaway 6y ago
        Eg. Italy and the v-day (f*k you day against politicians) which turned into the 5 star movement. It's not a success story, nothing really changed and the party turned into the establishment (they didn't really have a plan), but it shows where people's heart is. Right and left wing parties in Italy laughed at it at the beginning, nobody thought they would ever win.
        rleigh 6y ago
        You don't need a "citation". Off the top of my head, Greece and Italy. Just read the news regularly. The Euro has devastated the economies of several countries, and the fallout has been slowly building for the last decade. You don't have youth unemployment over 50%, lack of opportunity, lack of investment, and lack of control over your future without it having far-reaching implications. The current state of things doesn't leave much (if any) opportunity for this to be corrected. They are permanently indebted. Exiting the Eurozone and reverting to national currencies is pretty much the only answer to fix their economies. Italy has a lot of very productive industries. But they can't compete with Germany and other northern European countries while the scales are tipped firmly against them due to their currencies being tied together via the Euro. A freely floating currency would correct that and make Italy a very promising place to invest in and export from. Greece is a different story, and it is not entirely blameless. It should never have been allowed to join the Euro. But the cause of its economic woes is the same: its currency is tied to stronger economies with which it can't hope to complete, and that economic imbalance has caused complete devastation of its economy.
    - pyrale 6y ago
      > at least we now have example of rioters on both sides. There were exemple of rioters on both sides for a long time. What's new is not simply rioters either.
- chefkoch 6y ago
  >Is this _really_ just due to the Trump scandal? Which one? Cambridge Analytica The strategy meetings The storming of the Capitol I'm sure i forgot some.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- dspillett 6y ago
  Yes. Since the various platforms dropped Trumps there have been threats made that were not being made beforehand, and those are threats to cause harm to people or property not just threats to leave the network (which is generally what people threatened after the other recent scandals like CA). Those threats are probably just idiots sounding off and will never come to anything, but given recent events being careful just-in-case is quite prudent. An idiot sounding off can easily turn into an idiot taking action.
gambiting 6y ago
I mean, is that so weird? I have a friend who works at DWP(Department of Work and Pensions) and they are forbidden from wearing badges or any identifying work insignia outside of their buildings because of personal safety and the risk to data and equipment. Hell, I work at a games studio and we're maybe not forbidden, but heavily discouraged from wearing company merch at conferences and such to protect ourselves(we've had several incidents in the past years where employees were targetted specifically by thieves and scammers to extract company information. I don't think it was much because of possible disgruntled players, but nowadays you never know). I think the article is framing it as a recent development related to Trump, but I don't think it's that weird in tech world, it's just basic employee safety.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  It's tradition in SV to sport company swag. This is definitely unusual.
- ZanyProgrammer 6y ago
  At least a decade ago I remember seeing all sorts of tech employees wearing Pride themed shirts on Caltrain during Pride weekend. That was extremely normal and absolutely no one thought anything different.
- r00f 6y ago
  I have a friend whose NDA forbids him to tell anyone which company he works for. Because he is insured by company, and they don't want to attract kidnappers. So I'd agree, nothing new from FB here
  - secfirstmd 6y ago
    Kidnap and ransom insurance usually has stipulations that only very senior management on a need to know basis are told in a company. Telling regular staff members that you have it in place can often mean the insurance company won't pay out for many reasons: - adversaries might learn you will pay out and target your org/country specifically -staff may act more recklessly knowing it's in place -if you have to make payouts your premiums may go sky high or you won't get it in future - staff may make a deal for a cut of the ransom by setting up something with a dodgy actor - when/how K&R is paid is very very complicated. For example a ransom is never paid by insurance directly, the company must have cash to pay the ransom (which often catches them out) and they are compensated for loss of XYZ etc. Also many people find only when they need to use it that K&R has strict rules depending on what country you get it from. Some insurance companies won't pay if the ransom is to be paid to AQ, ISIS or other sanctioned organisations. Also how the whole situation is dealt with and the ransom negotiated is important and effects the K&R payout. If the company doesn't have good corporate security etc to manage it, things can get very messy on the K&R side of things. A lot of people (esp US companies for some reason - perhaps the idealism that "sending in the SEALS" people see on TV) think somehow their government is going to be a knight in shining armour in such situations and believe me, very often they make a situation a lot lot worse.
erik_seaberg 6y ago
Sure, I thought this was the advice ever since https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_tech_bus_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_tech_bus_protest....
- finnthehuman 6y ago
  You're right, but I also think the main takeaway from the tech bus protests was that the resulting conversations made it plainly visible just how out of touch even the politically engaged tech workers are.
yomly 6y ago
A sad state of affairs but prudent and thoughtful of FB to advise this. I wouldn't wear West Ham gear while walking through a Millwall neighbourhood. I probably also wouldn't wear big tech stash at the heat of some super frothy political times layered on top of a pandemic and other unrest. Maybe there's an argument about behaving indifferently as itself being a political stance but I am happy not inviting trouble to myself.
- 101008 6y ago
  Happy to see a football reference on Hacker News :)
  - secfirstmd 6y ago
    I wouldn't wear West Ham gear at all. They are rubbish!
- User23 6y ago
  Perhaps a more germane example is that for the past five years one wouldn’t wear Trump branded apparel in many parts of virtually every major US city unless part of a large group. The sports analogy is quite good though. For the vast majority it’s just red team vs blue team based on identity and emotion with precious little ratiocination.
ianai 6y ago
So they’re saying the response right now looks like the response immediately after 9/11. Ie mobilizing a whole of government effort to stamp out a home grown terrorist threat. (Per cable news this AM.) This news and other social media news reinforce this being a large response. In that case, I would urge people to remain patient and avoid making conclusions and long term decisions based on this response. It’s likely things ease up once “calm” is restored.
- pjc50 6y ago
  I wonder how long it will take to restore calm? People have been talking up armed insurrection in some form for as long as I've been on the internet. This stuff that used to appear in mass shooter manifestoes is now everywhere. And it's not a group with identifiable leaders, it's more a "stochastic terrorism" thing. Both "advocating revolution" and "owning weapons" are protected activities under the US constitution, so how do you identify the actual terrorists?
  - cbozeman 6y ago
    Well a good start might be to address a lot of these concerns. Whether they want to or not, politicians and the ultra wealthy are going to have to get out of bed together. The affair is over, if for no other reason then their own physical safety, then at least for their financial safety. If income inequality continues and there's less and less available jobs for working age men, those men will find something to occupy their time, and I promise you, it won't be selling wood carvings on Etsy. I cannot remember where I heard this, and I'm going to butcher the quote, but it went a little something like, "When you take away a man's ability to earn his way, you turn him into a revolutionary." I'm almost certain I got that wrong, but that's the gist of it. We need a huge jobs program and we need one now. An enormous infrastructure bill would be a good start to calming down a lot of this nonsense. Employed people with disposable income rarely want to upend the system. If we continue down this path, then the cold civil war that we're seeing waged mostly on the Internet, but occasionally out in the open, is going to turn into a hot one. And I guarantee you, if things escalate, you'll find Russia taking advantage of this by sending groups of their special operators to train these people, because no one in the world has more experience with urban warfare than Russia. And if you think that the American military is entirely unsympathetic to these people, you are starkly and dangerously wrong. EDIT: And yes, I've been hearing / reading / seeing references to the "boogaloo" for years now. It seems we might be facing it sooner, rather than later.
pjc50 6y ago
I'm glad I can wear my employer's clothing in public. If I was going out.
hehehaha 6y ago
This is terrorizing people all across the country. I don’t think I’ve seen anything like it since 9/11. I actually think the impact is far greater because it’s all over the country. At least post 9/11, you didn’t need to worry so much if you lived outside of urban areas. Now you are seeing white nationalist militia groups holding some type of “protests” all over America. Yes, even in small towns. This is the very definition of terrorism and it’s quickly spreading.
- gedy 6y ago
  I wouldn't be too quick to single out "alt right" given all the all around violence of past year.
  - cbozeman 6y ago
    In fairness the 101 days of utter lawlessness in Portland, and the weeks - months of riots that resulted in burning down businesses and public buildings, many of which the rioters themselves paid for and will pay for again when they're rebuilt, were mostly contained in a few locations across the nation.
    - neartheplain 6y ago
      burning down businesses and public buildings, many of which the rioters themselves paid for and will pay for again when they're rebuilt Citation needed.
      - cbozeman 6y ago
        > Citation needed. You need a citation to explain to you how government buildings are funded??
  - hehehaha 6y ago
    Ok I will change it to more accurate term: white nationalist militias. Thanks for point out my error.
- deleted 6y ago
chaz6 6y ago
It is just common sense. If I wear clothing branded with my company's logo then I could be held accountable for my actions outside of work, even if I am doing the right thing and it is perceived to bring the company into disrepute, I could be disciplined or potentially fired.
- randomsearch 6y ago
  Is it possible to do the right thing and be working at Facebook? I think we can take as a given that every engineer at Facebook could easily get a job elsewhere. To be a Facebook employee is a conscious choice. The bigger question is - should you avoid working at companies that are a net negative, or should you stay there to try to improve them? I don’t know the answer, but I don’t see Facebook improving and I wouldn’t personally work there, for ethical reasons.
  - KaiserPro 6y ago
    > Is it possible to do the right thing and be working at Facebook? Yes. > I think we can take as a given that every engineer at Facebook could easily get a job elsewhere. To be a Facebook employee is a conscious choice. yes, but loosing a lot of benefits. > should you avoid working at companies that are a net negative, or should you stay there to try to improve them? Thats two questions. And it's been on my mind for about a year now. I was bought out. The tech we make could be a brilliant tool for mankind, or if deployed incorrectly, commoditised stasi/KGB/Chinese secret police as a service. I don't want it to be the latter. If I leave there will be less voices of dissent. FB is a whipping boy. There are things that it should rightly be criticised for: not adhering to its own ToS for celebrities. Not enforcing age restrictions for instagram, not having enough diversity in its India operation. Myanmar. The difference between FB and the rest of SV is that FB has an utterly utterly shit PR team, who sits apart from the company. They love sniffing their own farts. (for example I only found out how many small companies advertise on FB when I joined. yet they reference this heavily only once, and expect a single full page advert to win people over.) Let us not forget that whilst FB is a data dustpan and brush, Google, Amazon, Apple, and your ISP are data hoovers. most of FB's data is collected willingly. The stuff your phone snitches on you every minute is extra ordinary. Amazon is literally selling a live feed of your front door to the police. I don't seek to admonish Facebook of its failings. They should be fucking hauled through the shit. But, we should also start to look at other companies, especially with the rise of AR.
ForHackernews 6y ago
Counterpoint: Nobody should ever wear employer-branded clothing unless it's a uniform you're required to wear for your job. Wearing your boss's logo on your free time just looks kind of sad and pathetic, in my opinion.
- cbozeman 6y ago
  Some people are proud of what they do, and happy to do it. I know two engineers from Lockheed-Martin's Skunkworks with whom I had served in the Navy, and they proudly wear LM polo shirts. They're doing interesting work, work that might benefit the entirety of humanity. I would be proud to work there too.
- onethought 6y ago
  Or you believe in the mission...? Ubuntu, SpaceX... I don’t see that as pathetic.
  - numpad0 6y ago
    I understand that some people are religious, I know it’s fun as long as it’s kept personal and voluntary
    - onethought 6y ago
      Religion requires belief, but belief doesn’t require religion.
  - tayo42 6y ago
    Or it's some cloth and keeps me warm. Lol I don't care much about my company but I wear it around the house. (I don't like the potential attention in public)
larryjw 6y ago
I have a co-worker that lives up in Cobb County, GA. One day he came to work about being approached by some men while he was at Waffle House for breakfast, because he was wearing a SnowFlake t-shirt.
sagivo 6y ago
I am an x-Facebook employee. In the early days I used to be proud wearing Facebook swag. Later it bacame more and more an issue. People started making comments on feature X or policy Y they didn't like. I eventually didn't wear any swag in public, this is when I've realized I need to leave the company. Facebook is still a great place to work but the brand is so damaged that it's hard to see how they gain consumer trust again. As a consumer company it means any new product (libra, unified family of apps etc..) will fail because of that.
- kuu 6y ago
  > the brand is so damaged By its own merits...
  - thiscatis 6y ago
    I hate it when people hide behind the brand. The reputation of people working there still is damaged, screw the brand.
    - greysteil 6y ago
      People are more than the company they work for. Be careful not to be reductionist by judging them too much on it.
      - messick 6y ago
        I’m 100% absolutely judging anyone still taking a paycheck from FB in this day and age. It speaks volumes about their character.
      - TomSwirly 6y ago
        So the people aren't responsible. But "Facebook", being a corporation and not a human, has no moral or ethical basis at all and exists entirely to make money. So by this calculus, all guilt, blame and responsibility is just waved away. They're only following orders, all the way to the top, where management are simply rationally trying to maximize revenue for stockholders, who also have no liability. Using the Greysteil Graywashing System™, any crime may be committed and no one is ever held responsible!
Uhrheber 6y ago
That's rich, coming from a company that tramples over everybody's privacy.
mozey 6y ago
I'm sure it's not just me, but I loathe branding on clothing. It's frustrating when I'm shopping and every second item has a brand name, logo, or some graphic clearly visible. I think this comes from living in a society where people are judged if they don't wear the correct label.
- mnw21cam 6y ago
  It's not just you.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  Most people pay more for that label.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    In my experience, the more logos there are, the cheaper the clothing. Higher end clothing has pretty much no logos.
    - oefrha 6y ago
      That’s just not true at all. <s>Okay maybe not specifically logos</s> (Edit: actually no, the statement still stands even if we talk specifically about logos) but many luxury brands have very distinct patterns covering their apparel, so much so that an entire item would be a sea of “logos”. See Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Chanel, etc. for example.
      - lotsofpulp 6y ago
        The non logo version of those products will be more expensive than the logo ones. For example, a non logo Hermes or Chanel product.
    - yNeolh 6y ago
      Lol... Have you ever seen a Louis Vuitton bag or Supreme clothes? I mean, maybe is low tier to millionaires but people usually wants just the logo because others will know is expensive and they ""can"" afford it... Or maybe I didn't get the point xD
bjeds 6y ago
That it'd come to this is pretty obvious I think. I mean, Facebook de-platformized a politician that 70+ million people voted for. It doesn't really matter if they had the right or wrong reasons in doing this: the pool of disillusioned people just grew tremendously and I can't see anyone claiming otherwise. Or did Facebook think that all of these 70+ million people would just sit back quietly and accept that their politician was blocked (or perceived of being censored)? EDIT: Clarified the last sentence do to using the word "censored" incorrectly: thanks for pointing it out.
- jk563 6y ago
  I think it's a fairly large assumption to make that they all voted for him specifically. I don't think it's too crazy (given he won <50% of the popular vote in the 2016 primaries) to assume a large number of those voters voted "Not Democrat" or voted Republican instead of voting Trump specifically.
  - Cthulhu_ 6y ago
    This is a problem with the US system at the moment. It was the same issue with the Brexit referendum; people got two choices (remain or leave), while the process was a lot more subtle and there were plenty of 'in between' solutions available. People voted leave for single issues, while leaving actually caused multiple issues that affected them directly. Anyway tl;dr the US needs massive political reform and one should never be constrained to just two choices.
    - randomsearch 6y ago
      The inability of the American and U.K. electoral systems to reform themselves will destroy both countries.
      - neartheplain 6y ago
        What makes you say that about the UK? As an American, I’ve always been envious of what I perceive as the UK’s greater electoral flexibility, expressed through systems like snap elections and Parliament’s role in appointing the chief executive.
NinjaSaves 6y ago
Facebook practically invented the dark triad of addictive UI elements that are currently partially responsible for driving us all constantly insane (violence for the last 4 years, the attack on DC, etc. ad infinitum): 1.) Animated or colorful icons with incrementing numbers in some context. This is huge for the addiction factor. 2.) Infinite scrolling. Also for addiction factor. 3.) Relative Timestamps. Everything is more immediate and you feel the need to stay on longer. So, hopefully their employees stay safe, but as far as the company is concerned... Occasionally, to continue to have a republic, we have to slay a dragon or two. I can think of three, actually.
- r00fus 6y ago
  Did Apple invent dock notification badges (and web/FB uptook) or was it the other way around? IIRC Apple did this as early as OSX Tiger (2005). Also I believe infinite scrolling existed before FB, probably on RSS readers and other places on the web. NNTP clients did this long long ago. If you're saying FB popularized them because they were so popular - well ok maybe.
  - DreamScatter 6y ago
    None of these companies should be proud of inventing narcissistic addictive UI elements, it's harmful to society. These companies are so narcissistic, that they want to fight over who gets credit for inventing these narcissistic addictive UI elements... the like button is not a genius invention, it's a simple idea that has been exploited for psychological addictions.
- clircle 6y ago
  Please explain the problem with relative time stamps.
  - userbinator 6y ago
    "44 minutes ago" sounds so much more "urgent" and "fresh" than... 2021-01-13T00:44:00Z.
base 6y ago
I noticed a similar thing happens with their regional offices, while Google and other companies show their branding outside the buildings, in buildings with FB offices most of the times you don't know there is one just by looking outside or even at the building reception. At least this was the perception I had from the ones I have seen.
- fatnoah 6y ago
  As a current FB employee this matches what I've seen of the offices I've visited. In fact, all swag I've received in the year I've been here also doesn't have FB branding on the exterior. Regarding the original article, I've received no warnings about wearing FB branded stuff outside, so the warning may have been specific to DC or specific locations.
Darmody 6y ago
While I despise Facebook and I wouldn't wear anything with their name even if they paid me, I think this is a society failure. No matter if you're wearing Facebook clothing, something political, your sports team clothing, etc. You shouldn't have to be afraid for it.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  > I think this is a society failure. Is it really society's failure to fight back against a company whose entire business model is detrimental to said society?
  - humanrebar 6y ago
    It's a failure when people don't feel physically safe to state their entirely opinions, identities, and allegiances, yes. It's the principle of free expression.
  - Darmody 6y ago
    I want Facebook gone, it causes more harm than good but their employees shouldn't be harassed or assaulted because of it. And there are more companies like this. Do we assault anyone working for companies that pollute? What about people working in banks that made possible the 2008 crash? And I could go on and on. If anyone is doing anything illegal, they should be brought to justice. Violence will bring only more violence and won't solve the problem.
    - freeone3000 6y ago
      Democracy ensures that there's enough bureaucracy between the mob rule and the enforcement that it allows people to forget there's a mob.
      - Darmody 6y ago
        The rule of law ensures that, not democracy, although democracy is what usually preserves the rule of law.
parisiansam 6y ago
This is like when my mum used to tell me to don't wear t-shirt with Hebrew letters on it because it attract hates in the streets (in Paris, France) that sucked to not be able to wear what i want...
neartheplain 6y ago
I used to work in tech in the Bay Area. I stopped wearing company-branded clothing in San Francisco circa 2015 when anti-techie protestors picketed company bus stops [0], picketed the homes of Google employees [1], assaulted people wearing Google Glass in the street [2], and shot out commuter bus windows on the freeway [3]. Company merch just attracted the wrong kind of attention. The situation was getting bad then, sounds like it’s only gotten worse with the election. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_tech_bus_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_tech_bus_protest... [1] https://www.berkeleyside.com/2014/01/22/activists-target-google-employee-berkeley-resident https://www.berkeleyside.com/2014/01/22/activists-target-goo... [2] https://www.businessinsider.com/i-was-assaulted-for-wearing-google-glass-2014-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/i-was-assaulted-for-wearing-... [3] https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/apple-google-buses-rerouted-on-peninsula-after-apparent-shooting-damages-windows/ https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/apple-google-buses-rerouted-...
- arduanika 6y ago
  If you want to keep a truly low profile, I hope you don't zero-index your citations out in public!
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
Geminidog 6y ago
People in this thread are talking about attacks on tech workers in general that aren’t exclusive to Facebook. It’s a lashing out sparked by wealth inequality and people knowing something is wrong with this country but not sure who to attack or vote for. Nobody lashes out against Amazon warehouse workers because of brand.
patagonia 6y ago
We went through this at AIG during the financial crisis. No fun. I feel for them. We had to return our security badges and exchange them for new ones without AIG identifiable info on them so that we wouldn’t get harassed on the subway. And were told to keep quiet about who we worked for. 99% of the people at AIG had nothing to do with the business that contributed to the financial crisis. In fact, the business unit most responsible was in Connecticut (we were in the Financial District in Manhattan). So it was pretty frustrating to be a worker bee making a middle income salary and having no insight to or ability to influence the issues causing the financial crisis, and yet having strangers wanting to yell at or physically harm you.
Geminidog 6y ago
I think people need to look at the bigger issues. What caused 70 million people to vote for trump and what caused a mob to descend onto the government building in the first place. People on the other side of the wealth divide sense something is wrong with this country but are unable to put their finger on what. Attacks on tech workers is really a surface level issue. Misguided radicalism happens in places with deep economic issues caused by things that are too complex to completely reason out. What causes wealth inequality? Nobody can put their finger on it but people will make up a reason if they have too. Usually that reason involves attacking anyone and any symbol on the other side of the wealth divide.
- ahelwer 6y ago
  This myth that trump supporters are humble working class people needs to end. These are people with money. Guns are expensive. Travel is expensive. These people have means. See this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/11/13/white-trump-voters-are-richer-than-they-appear/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/11/13/white-tru... Just because someone wears Carhartt and drives a kitted-out truck doesn't mean they're working class. That's a costume, and you were fooled.
  - Geminidog 6y ago
    https://www.bruegel.org/2016/11/income-inequality-boosted-trump-vote/ https://www.bruegel.org/2016/11/income-inequality-boosted-tr... https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/11/03/americas-inequality-election/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/11/03/americas-inequality-ele... My conclusions are based on data. Which further fuels the confusion. We can engage in an endless argument on who’s data is garbage and who’s is not
    - ahelwer 6y ago
      Look at median income and things are different: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps-working-class-support/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps...
aspyct 6y ago
I know I'm not supposed to complain about lousy web design. I've been told in the past. I know. But still. I don't have an ad blocker. I'm using a run-of-the-mill browser here. Won't tell which one, you would probably laugh. And the website is blocking me on grounds of having an ad blocker. And there's no way around it. I can click "learn more", only to be redirected to another page which is equally blocked by this "we need your money" shit. Look, I understand you need money to survive. But at least give us a way to contact you, or something? EDIT: Well, I have a PiHole which I forgot about, actually. So they're probably right on the ad blocker. lol EDIT2: Oh no, that's hilarious. It actually happens because I've rejected permissions on their cookie popup.
- IceWreck 6y ago
  Internet Explorer ? Midori ? Epiphany ? Konqueror ? BTW I am using an adblocker (uBlock Origin) and it is not blocking me, prolly because it also blocks its anti-adblock script.
  - Const-me 6y ago
    Could be the network. Long ago I’ve worked in companies where ads were blocked in the centralized manner, a blacklist by DNS or IP in the main router.
  - aspyct 6y ago
    > because it also blocks its anti-adblock script. Ahahah that's good!
- hellojason 6y ago
  That’s odd. I’m using an ad blocker and a PiHole, and the site loads fine for me. Ad block detection is hard, I guess.
  - aspyct 6y ago
    PiHole and strict privacy settings on the browser. I'm guessing the settings are a little too strict for them. I'd be ok with (some kinds of) ads, but I guess that always comes with privacy issues.
bkirkby 6y ago
back in mid-90s i did a contract job for a field office of the FBI. they had a policy that we were required to remove our ID badges when we left the building (to go to lunch or whatever). the building itself was also devoid of any signs that indicated this contained an FBI office. interestingly enough, a few months later, i was contracted for another job at a different FBI field office. that one had a sign out front and seemed surprised when i asked if i needed to remove my badge before leaving the building.
thomas609 6y ago
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Mc_Big_G 6y ago
Maybe Facebook should change their policies instead of their clothes.
sershe 6y ago
I foresee a small, but non-negligible market for swag that says, in tiny letters "i don't work in" and then in regular-sized letters "facebook" ;) I'd wear that (I don't work in Facebook, but don't share the conviction that Facebook is evil either).
hnburnsy 6y ago
Feels like Facebook said the same thing about Hacker News. I rarely see posts by current employees, which is really disappointing as I would love to hear about the tech issues they encounter.
- lbrandy 6y ago
  I used to post quite a bit more. Times have changed.
  - hnburnsy 6y ago
    Thanks, hope you can continue to contribute here without retribution.
- danbrooks 6y ago
  I'm starting at Facebook in two weeks. I was looking forward to the branded swag too...
hikerclimber 6y ago
this goes to show that our corporations have too much power...
01100011 6y ago
As a FAANNG employee, I generally avoid all company swag because I don't want to flaunt my wealth(which is vastly less than a lot of you but more than your average Joe). There's already enough property crime in the bay area. I don't want to be the next victim.
kepler1 6y ago
We'll know we've reached the tipping point when even the homeless guy on the corner says to an offer of FB clothing, "no way man, I'm not wearing that shit".
madrox 6y ago
I used to work at a company with a 100 year old brand, and they took their perception seriously. Every few years, they conducted a brand audit and I got to attend an internal presentation on how they do it. Along the way, they mentioned that Facebook has the same brand perception as the IRS. This was about eight years ago. So yeah, I can also see auditors not wanting to wear their IRS swag...especially during tax season.
- newacct583 6y ago
  What is wrong with this site?! They aren't talking about popularity. They are talking about violence. They aren't saying that Facebook people are ashamed and trying to hide their affiliation. They are saying they think they'll get hurt because of where they work. What can't we take this seriously? There was a right wing terror attack just days ago, rhetoric all over the internet is filled with imagery of violence and revolt and retribution. And all anyone wants to talk about is the spin directed in the other direction about who is culpable, and whether or not content moderation and censorship are the same thing, and whether or not it actually constituted a coup. But, people got hurt and killed on Wednesday, and the same communities continue to threaten the same kind of thing. Is it so hard to believe that people at Facebook or Twitter or wherever, who are geeks just like us, are genuinely afraid right now? I'll take my downvotes now, thanks.
  - s1artibartfast 6y ago
    It is unclear what exactly you are objecting to.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    > Is it so hard to believe that people at Facebook or Twitter or wherever, who are geeks just like us, are genuinely afraid right now? The person you replied to didn't suggest otherwise. You seem to be ranting at someone who is just pointing out that being associated with Facebook is much like being associated with the IRS... another very unpopular and potentially dangerous job.
  - cmdshiftf4 6y ago
chrismsimpson 6y ago
Mark acknowledging his brand is now toxic to both the left and the right and not a moment too soon. Love it.
meekmockmook 6y ago
I know it's hard when you've got a family to feed, but any FB employee who won't consider quitting at this point has made a deal with the devil.
- snarf21 6y ago
  I think "this point" was years ago.
- JimTheMan 6y ago
  You could also say the same of those working in oil and gas, coal, tobacco, whatever. As much as we want individuals to be held to accountable, shouldn't it be the leadership of the company AND especially government that are ultimately responsible. They ultimately define the companies/practices existing as they do.
  - confidantlake 6y ago
    I agree mostly but at the same time we elect the government and facebook influences our vote. We influence the gov and the gov influences us.
    - JimTheMan 6y ago
      A vicious feedback loop of media and lobbying.
- tooltower 6y ago
  "At this point, anyone who pays taxes to the US government has made a deal with the devil." Some of these companies are as big as a small city. How much control or responsibility would you say an average resident of the city carries over the actions of their city council? Edit: forgot to add disclaimer. I work for one of these giant companies, but not Facebook.
- esoterica 6y ago
  The irony about people who complain about FB being evil is that half the complainers think they don't do enough to censor "bad" content and the other half think they censor too aggressively. If you can't even agree on "why" Facebook is evil, then maybe their supposed evilness is subjective and not as obvious and incontrovertible as so many seem to pretend it is? Maybe there is nothing they can do that will morally satisfy everyone, since moving in any direction to appease one faction will anger another?
fossuser 6y ago
Facebook did the right thing here by booting trump off the platform and Mark Zuckerberg’s statement was good. They didn’t change their policy, the context changed and Zuckerberg said as much. Wouldn't the illegal state action here be forcing facebook or twitter to keep trump on their site? That seems like a violation of twitter's speech and their first amendment rights. IANAL, but I don't think private companies are forced to provide access - they are allowed ToS and allowed to ban. FB, Twitter, etc. were bending over backwards to allow speech in violation of their policies because they thought that public access to the speech of elected politicians in rule of law democracies was important. With rule of law in question and direct incitement of violence they've changed tact (clearly within their legal right as I understand it). [0] There's a quiet irony here that the same ideology that argues it's right for a private business to refuse to bake a cake for a gay couple in violation of a protected characteristic, is okay with forcing a private company to provide service to those aligned with their interests. Inciting insurrection is not a protected characteristic. The fact employees have to be cautious about wearing the brand is because the faction that carried out the attack is dangerous, not because what Facebook did was wrong. [0]: https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/16/mark-zuckerberg-and-free-speech.html https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/16/mark-zuckerberg-and-f...
- armagon 6y ago
  "FB, Twitter, etc. were bending over backwards to allow speech in violation of their policies because they thought that public access to the speech of elected politicians in rule of law democracies was important." I think that was their mistake. They should've banned the accounts at that point, showing that (as the law in a democracy says) no one is above the law. [They should likewise act on other accounts, of all political persuasions]. As it is, it looks like they all colluded to deplatform Trump at the same time -- as though his messages were a fun toy so long as it served their purposes, and worthy of derision as soon as it didn't.
  - fossuser 6y ago
    I think you’re being overly cynical and I don’t agree. I think they take their power seriously and there is a real distinction in the context prior to 1/6. I write about why this is hard in my blog post linked in the other comment. Things changed with trump’s incitement of the assault on the capitol. I think the decisions they made at each point made sense. This isn’t an obvious or easy problem to answer. In the absence of policy they’ve become de-facto regulators. We’ve had a non functioning legislative body for a while and America seems to specialize in bad workarounds for missing policy.
gr4yb34rd 6y ago
I learned this lesson in 1998 while working for MindSpring. A customer spotted my company shirt while at a gas station and threatened to kill me over tech support hold times. I never wore another employer-branded shirt in public.

306 points by pera 6y ago

Is this _really_ just due to the Trump scandal? Facebook is doing so much shady stuff to people, I wouldn't be surprised if some people took their hatred too far (I dearly do hope nobody takes it out on random employees though!).

loceng 6y ago
That group of people manipulated by Trump et al just stormed the Capitol and people died. There were ~74 million who voted for Trump, how many are willing to go so far, only God knows.
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  If they had more people willing to storm the Capitol for the election results they would have gone already. I don't see how these extremists could benefit from act of violence on private business or citizens. Despite the deaths, I'm glad this happened, at least we now have example of rioters on both sides. Maybe the third party will gain the remaining sane people in the USA?
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    This was nothing to be glad about, no matter what side you are on.
    - jokethrowaway 6y ago
      You can find a positive spin for any event, despite how terrible it may be.
      - splendidHaiku 6y ago
        Overall it had no positive spin - so no. Also there is a difference between "This was nothing to be glad about" and "There was nothing to be glad about".
        jokethrowaway 6y ago
        It's all relative. From where I stand a few deaths are not that important. The more political parties in the USA taint themselves the greater the chance people will change the status quo. The USA is one of the few places were people are crazy enough to change things.
      - refurb 6y ago
        Ok. Give me the positive spin on 9/11.
        jokethrowaway 6y ago
        This generation realised waging useless wars is not beneficial and it's not a good response to act of terrors. You can find many, depending on your opinions
        refurb 6y ago
        Hmmm... but we did wage two wars based on 9/11. And are still killing people with drones.
  - eertami 6y ago
    Until the US implements proportional representation, any third party is always going to have an inconsequential amount of votes.
    - jokethrowaway 6y ago
      If governments spending keeps increasing, you'll probably reach a point in which it won't be that unrealistic. There are European states in which government overreach wrecked the economy so much that anti-establishment parties got elected. You can see trump as one meager step in that direction. I think the natural conclusion, after seeing that things are not changing by voting mainstream parties, is to actually vote someone else.
      - pjc50 6y ago
        > There are European states in which government overreach wrecked the economy so much that anti-establishment parties got elected. [citation needed]
        jokethrowaway 6y ago
        Eg. Italy and the v-day (f*k you day against politicians) which turned into the 5 star movement. It's not a success story, nothing really changed and the party turned into the establishment (they didn't really have a plan), but it shows where people's heart is. Right and left wing parties in Italy laughed at it at the beginning, nobody thought they would ever win.
        rleigh 6y ago
        You don't need a "citation". Off the top of my head, Greece and Italy. Just read the news regularly. The Euro has devastated the economies of several countries, and the fallout has been slowly building for the last decade. You don't have youth unemployment over 50%, lack of opportunity, lack of investment, and lack of control over your future without it having far-reaching implications. The current state of things doesn't leave much (if any) opportunity for this to be corrected. They are permanently indebted. Exiting the Eurozone and reverting to national currencies is pretty much the only answer to fix their economies. Italy has a lot of very productive industries. But they can't compete with Germany and other northern European countries while the scales are tipped firmly against them due to their currencies being tied together via the Euro. A freely floating currency would correct that and make Italy a very promising place to invest in and export from. Greece is a different story, and it is not entirely blameless. It should never have been allowed to join the Euro. But the cause of its economic woes is the same: its currency is tied to stronger economies with which it can't hope to complete, and that economic imbalance has caused complete devastation of its economy.
  - pyrale 6y ago
    > at least we now have example of rioters on both sides. There were exemple of rioters on both sides for a long time. What's new is not simply rioters either.
chefkoch 6y ago
>Is this _really_ just due to the Trump scandal? Which one? Cambridge Analytica The strategy meetings The storming of the Capitol I'm sure i forgot some.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
dspillett 6y ago
Yes. Since the various platforms dropped Trumps there have been threats made that were not being made beforehand, and those are threats to cause harm to people or property not just threats to leave the network (which is generally what people threatened after the other recent scandals like CA). Those threats are probably just idiots sounding off and will never come to anything, but given recent events being careful just-in-case is quite prudent. An idiot sounding off can easily turn into an idiot taking action.

gambiting 6y ago

I mean, is that so weird? I have a friend who works at DWP(Department of Work and Pensions) and they are forbidden from wearing badges or any identifying work insignia outside of their buildings because of personal safety and the risk to data and equipment. Hell, I work at a games studio and we're maybe not forbidden, but heavily discouraged from wearing company merch at conferences and such to protect ourselves(we've had several incidents in the past years where employees were targetted specifically by thieves and scammers to extract company information. I don't think it was much because of possible disgruntled players, but nowadays you never know). I think the article is framing it as a recent development related to Trump, but I don't think it's that weird in tech world, it's just basic employee safety.

renewiltord 6y ago
It's tradition in SV to sport company swag. This is definitely unusual.
ZanyProgrammer 6y ago
At least a decade ago I remember seeing all sorts of tech employees wearing Pride themed shirts on Caltrain during Pride weekend. That was extremely normal and absolutely no one thought anything different.
r00f 6y ago
I have a friend whose NDA forbids him to tell anyone which company he works for. Because he is insured by company, and they don't want to attract kidnappers. So I'd agree, nothing new from FB here
- secfirstmd 6y ago
  Kidnap and ransom insurance usually has stipulations that only very senior management on a need to know basis are told in a company. Telling regular staff members that you have it in place can often mean the insurance company won't pay out for many reasons: - adversaries might learn you will pay out and target your org/country specifically -staff may act more recklessly knowing it's in place -if you have to make payouts your premiums may go sky high or you won't get it in future - staff may make a deal for a cut of the ransom by setting up something with a dodgy actor - when/how K&R is paid is very very complicated. For example a ransom is never paid by insurance directly, the company must have cash to pay the ransom (which often catches them out) and they are compensated for loss of XYZ etc. Also many people find only when they need to use it that K&R has strict rules depending on what country you get it from. Some insurance companies won't pay if the ransom is to be paid to AQ, ISIS or other sanctioned organisations. Also how the whole situation is dealt with and the ransom negotiated is important and effects the K&R payout. If the company doesn't have good corporate security etc to manage it, things can get very messy on the K&R side of things. A lot of people (esp US companies for some reason - perhaps the idealism that "sending in the SEALS" people see on TV) think somehow their government is going to be a knight in shining armour in such situations and believe me, very often they make a situation a lot lot worse.

erik_seaberg 6y ago

Sure, I thought this was the advice ever since https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_tech_bus_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_tech_bus_protest....

finnthehuman 6y ago
You're right, but I also think the main takeaway from the tech bus protests was that the resulting conversations made it plainly visible just how out of touch even the politically engaged tech workers are.

yomly 6y ago

A sad state of affairs but prudent and thoughtful of FB to advise this. I wouldn't wear West Ham gear while walking through a Millwall neighbourhood. I probably also wouldn't wear big tech stash at the heat of some super frothy political times layered on top of a pandemic and other unrest. Maybe there's an argument about behaving indifferently as itself being a political stance but I am happy not inviting trouble to myself.

101008 6y ago
Happy to see a football reference on Hacker News :)
- secfirstmd 6y ago
  I wouldn't wear West Ham gear at all. They are rubbish!
User23 6y ago
Perhaps a more germane example is that for the past five years one wouldn’t wear Trump branded apparel in many parts of virtually every major US city unless part of a large group. The sports analogy is quite good though. For the vast majority it’s just red team vs blue team based on identity and emotion with precious little ratiocination.

ianai 6y ago

So they’re saying the response right now looks like the response immediately after 9/11. Ie mobilizing a whole of government effort to stamp out a home grown terrorist threat. (Per cable news this AM.) This news and other social media news reinforce this being a large response. In that case, I would urge people to remain patient and avoid making conclusions and long term decisions based on this response. It’s likely things ease up once “calm” is restored.

pjc50 6y ago
I wonder how long it will take to restore calm? People have been talking up armed insurrection in some form for as long as I've been on the internet. This stuff that used to appear in mass shooter manifestoes is now everywhere. And it's not a group with identifiable leaders, it's more a "stochastic terrorism" thing. Both "advocating revolution" and "owning weapons" are protected activities under the US constitution, so how do you identify the actual terrorists?
- cbozeman 6y ago
  Well a good start might be to address a lot of these concerns. Whether they want to or not, politicians and the ultra wealthy are going to have to get out of bed together. The affair is over, if for no other reason then their own physical safety, then at least for their financial safety. If income inequality continues and there's less and less available jobs for working age men, those men will find something to occupy their time, and I promise you, it won't be selling wood carvings on Etsy. I cannot remember where I heard this, and I'm going to butcher the quote, but it went a little something like, "When you take away a man's ability to earn his way, you turn him into a revolutionary." I'm almost certain I got that wrong, but that's the gist of it. We need a huge jobs program and we need one now. An enormous infrastructure bill would be a good start to calming down a lot of this nonsense. Employed people with disposable income rarely want to upend the system. If we continue down this path, then the cold civil war that we're seeing waged mostly on the Internet, but occasionally out in the open, is going to turn into a hot one. And I guarantee you, if things escalate, you'll find Russia taking advantage of this by sending groups of their special operators to train these people, because no one in the world has more experience with urban warfare than Russia. And if you think that the American military is entirely unsympathetic to these people, you are starkly and dangerously wrong. EDIT: And yes, I've been hearing / reading / seeing references to the "boogaloo" for years now. It seems we might be facing it sooner, rather than later.

pjc50 6y ago

I'm glad I can wear my employer's clothing in public. If I was going out.

hehehaha 6y ago

This is terrorizing people all across the country. I don’t think I’ve seen anything like it since 9/11. I actually think the impact is far greater because it’s all over the country. At least post 9/11, you didn’t need to worry so much if you lived outside of urban areas. Now you are seeing white nationalist militia groups holding some type of “protests” all over America. Yes, even in small towns. This is the very definition of terrorism and it’s quickly spreading.

gedy 6y ago
I wouldn't be too quick to single out "alt right" given all the all around violence of past year.
- cbozeman 6y ago
  In fairness the 101 days of utter lawlessness in Portland, and the weeks - months of riots that resulted in burning down businesses and public buildings, many of which the rioters themselves paid for and will pay for again when they're rebuilt, were mostly contained in a few locations across the nation.
  - neartheplain 6y ago
    burning down businesses and public buildings, many of which the rioters themselves paid for and will pay for again when they're rebuilt Citation needed.
    - cbozeman 6y ago
      > Citation needed. You need a citation to explain to you how government buildings are funded??
- hehehaha 6y ago
  Ok I will change it to more accurate term: white nationalist militias. Thanks for point out my error.
deleted 6y ago

chaz6 6y ago

It is just common sense. If I wear clothing branded with my company's logo then I could be held accountable for my actions outside of work, even if I am doing the right thing and it is perceived to bring the company into disrepute, I could be disciplined or potentially fired.

randomsearch 6y ago
Is it possible to do the right thing and be working at Facebook? I think we can take as a given that every engineer at Facebook could easily get a job elsewhere. To be a Facebook employee is a conscious choice. The bigger question is - should you avoid working at companies that are a net negative, or should you stay there to try to improve them? I don’t know the answer, but I don’t see Facebook improving and I wouldn’t personally work there, for ethical reasons.
- KaiserPro 6y ago
  > Is it possible to do the right thing and be working at Facebook? Yes. > I think we can take as a given that every engineer at Facebook could easily get a job elsewhere. To be a Facebook employee is a conscious choice. yes, but loosing a lot of benefits. > should you avoid working at companies that are a net negative, or should you stay there to try to improve them? Thats two questions. And it's been on my mind for about a year now. I was bought out. The tech we make could be a brilliant tool for mankind, or if deployed incorrectly, commoditised stasi/KGB/Chinese secret police as a service. I don't want it to be the latter. If I leave there will be less voices of dissent. FB is a whipping boy. There are things that it should rightly be criticised for: not adhering to its own ToS for celebrities. Not enforcing age restrictions for instagram, not having enough diversity in its India operation. Myanmar. The difference between FB and the rest of SV is that FB has an utterly utterly shit PR team, who sits apart from the company. They love sniffing their own farts. (for example I only found out how many small companies advertise on FB when I joined. yet they reference this heavily only once, and expect a single full page advert to win people over.) Let us not forget that whilst FB is a data dustpan and brush, Google, Amazon, Apple, and your ISP are data hoovers. most of FB's data is collected willingly. The stuff your phone snitches on you every minute is extra ordinary. Amazon is literally selling a live feed of your front door to the police. I don't seek to admonish Facebook of its failings. They should be fucking hauled through the shit. But, we should also start to look at other companies, especially with the rise of AR.

ForHackernews 6y ago

Counterpoint: Nobody should ever wear employer-branded clothing unless it's a uniform you're required to wear for your job. Wearing your boss's logo on your free time just looks kind of sad and pathetic, in my opinion.

cbozeman 6y ago
Some people are proud of what they do, and happy to do it. I know two engineers from Lockheed-Martin's Skunkworks with whom I had served in the Navy, and they proudly wear LM polo shirts. They're doing interesting work, work that might benefit the entirety of humanity. I would be proud to work there too.
onethought 6y ago
Or you believe in the mission...? Ubuntu, SpaceX... I don’t see that as pathetic.
- numpad0 6y ago
  I understand that some people are religious, I know it’s fun as long as it’s kept personal and voluntary
  - onethought 6y ago
    Religion requires belief, but belief doesn’t require religion.
- tayo42 6y ago
  Or it's some cloth and keeps me warm. Lol I don't care much about my company but I wear it around the house. (I don't like the potential attention in public)

larryjw 6y ago

I have a co-worker that lives up in Cobb County, GA. One day he came to work about being approached by some men while he was at Waffle House for breakfast, because he was wearing a SnowFlake t-shirt.

sagivo 6y ago

I am an x-Facebook employee. In the early days I used to be proud wearing Facebook swag. Later it bacame more and more an issue. People started making comments on feature X or policy Y they didn't like. I eventually didn't wear any swag in public, this is when I've realized I need to leave the company. Facebook is still a great place to work but the brand is so damaged that it's hard to see how they gain consumer trust again. As a consumer company it means any new product (libra, unified family of apps etc..) will fail because of that.

kuu 6y ago
> the brand is so damaged By its own merits...
- thiscatis 6y ago
  I hate it when people hide behind the brand. The reputation of people working there still is damaged, screw the brand.
  - greysteil 6y ago
    People are more than the company they work for. Be careful not to be reductionist by judging them too much on it.
    - messick 6y ago
      I’m 100% absolutely judging anyone still taking a paycheck from FB in this day and age. It speaks volumes about their character.
    - TomSwirly 6y ago
      So the people aren't responsible. But "Facebook", being a corporation and not a human, has no moral or ethical basis at all and exists entirely to make money. So by this calculus, all guilt, blame and responsibility is just waved away. They're only following orders, all the way to the top, where management are simply rationally trying to maximize revenue for stockholders, who also have no liability. Using the Greysteil Graywashing System™, any crime may be committed and no one is ever held responsible!

Uhrheber 6y ago

That's rich, coming from a company that tramples over everybody's privacy.

mozey 6y ago

I'm sure it's not just me, but I loathe branding on clothing. It's frustrating when I'm shopping and every second item has a brand name, logo, or some graphic clearly visible. I think this comes from living in a society where people are judged if they don't wear the correct label.

mnw21cam 6y ago
It's not just you.
MattGaiser 6y ago
Most people pay more for that label.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  In my experience, the more logos there are, the cheaper the clothing. Higher end clothing has pretty much no logos.
  - oefrha 6y ago
    That’s just not true at all. <s>Okay maybe not specifically logos</s> (Edit: actually no, the statement still stands even if we talk specifically about logos) but many luxury brands have very distinct patterns covering their apparel, so much so that an entire item would be a sea of “logos”. See Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Chanel, etc. for example.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      The non logo version of those products will be more expensive than the logo ones. For example, a non logo Hermes or Chanel product.
  - yNeolh 6y ago
    Lol... Have you ever seen a Louis Vuitton bag or Supreme clothes? I mean, maybe is low tier to millionaires but people usually wants just the logo because others will know is expensive and they ""can"" afford it... Or maybe I didn't get the point xD

bjeds 6y ago

That it'd come to this is pretty obvious I think. I mean, Facebook de-platformized a politician that 70+ million people voted for. It doesn't really matter if they had the right or wrong reasons in doing this: the pool of disillusioned people just grew tremendously and I can't see anyone claiming otherwise. Or did Facebook think that all of these 70+ million people would just sit back quietly and accept that their politician was blocked (or perceived of being censored)? EDIT: Clarified the last sentence do to using the word "censored" incorrectly: thanks for pointing it out.

jk563 6y ago
I think it's a fairly large assumption to make that they all voted for him specifically. I don't think it's too crazy (given he won <50% of the popular vote in the 2016 primaries) to assume a large number of those voters voted "Not Democrat" or voted Republican instead of voting Trump specifically.
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  This is a problem with the US system at the moment. It was the same issue with the Brexit referendum; people got two choices (remain or leave), while the process was a lot more subtle and there were plenty of 'in between' solutions available. People voted leave for single issues, while leaving actually caused multiple issues that affected them directly. Anyway tl;dr the US needs massive political reform and one should never be constrained to just two choices.
  - randomsearch 6y ago
    The inability of the American and U.K. electoral systems to reform themselves will destroy both countries.
    - neartheplain 6y ago
      What makes you say that about the UK? As an American, I’ve always been envious of what I perceive as the UK’s greater electoral flexibility, expressed through systems like snap elections and Parliament’s role in appointing the chief executive.

NinjaSaves 6y ago

Facebook practically invented the dark triad of addictive UI elements that are currently partially responsible for driving us all constantly insane (violence for the last 4 years, the attack on DC, etc. ad infinitum): 1.) Animated or colorful icons with incrementing numbers in some context. This is huge for the addiction factor. 2.) Infinite scrolling. Also for addiction factor. 3.) Relative Timestamps. Everything is more immediate and you feel the need to stay on longer. So, hopefully their employees stay safe, but as far as the company is concerned... Occasionally, to continue to have a republic, we have to slay a dragon or two. I can think of three, actually.

r00fus 6y ago
Did Apple invent dock notification badges (and web/FB uptook) or was it the other way around? IIRC Apple did this as early as OSX Tiger (2005). Also I believe infinite scrolling existed before FB, probably on RSS readers and other places on the web. NNTP clients did this long long ago. If you're saying FB popularized them because they were so popular - well ok maybe.
- DreamScatter 6y ago
  None of these companies should be proud of inventing narcissistic addictive UI elements, it's harmful to society. These companies are so narcissistic, that they want to fight over who gets credit for inventing these narcissistic addictive UI elements... the like button is not a genius invention, it's a simple idea that has been exploited for psychological addictions.
clircle 6y ago
Please explain the problem with relative time stamps.
- userbinator 6y ago
  "44 minutes ago" sounds so much more "urgent" and "fresh" than... 2021-01-13T00:44:00Z.

base 6y ago

I noticed a similar thing happens with their regional offices, while Google and other companies show their branding outside the buildings, in buildings with FB offices most of the times you don't know there is one just by looking outside or even at the building reception. At least this was the perception I had from the ones I have seen.

fatnoah 6y ago
As a current FB employee this matches what I've seen of the offices I've visited. In fact, all swag I've received in the year I've been here also doesn't have FB branding on the exterior. Regarding the original article, I've received no warnings about wearing FB branded stuff outside, so the warning may have been specific to DC or specific locations.

Darmody 6y ago

While I despise Facebook and I wouldn't wear anything with their name even if they paid me, I think this is a society failure. No matter if you're wearing Facebook clothing, something political, your sports team clothing, etc. You shouldn't have to be afraid for it.

Nextgrid 6y ago
> I think this is a society failure. Is it really society's failure to fight back against a company whose entire business model is detrimental to said society?
- humanrebar 6y ago
  It's a failure when people don't feel physically safe to state their entirely opinions, identities, and allegiances, yes. It's the principle of free expression.
- Darmody 6y ago
  I want Facebook gone, it causes more harm than good but their employees shouldn't be harassed or assaulted because of it. And there are more companies like this. Do we assault anyone working for companies that pollute? What about people working in banks that made possible the 2008 crash? And I could go on and on. If anyone is doing anything illegal, they should be brought to justice. Violence will bring only more violence and won't solve the problem.
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    Democracy ensures that there's enough bureaucracy between the mob rule and the enforcement that it allows people to forget there's a mob.
    - Darmody 6y ago
      The rule of law ensures that, not democracy, although democracy is what usually preserves the rule of law.

parisiansam 6y ago

This is like when my mum used to tell me to don't wear t-shirt with Hebrew letters on it because it attract hates in the streets (in Paris, France) that sucked to not be able to wear what i want...

neartheplain 6y ago

I used to work in tech in the Bay Area. I stopped wearing company-branded clothing in San Francisco circa 2015 when anti-techie protestors picketed company bus stops [0], picketed the homes of Google employees [1], assaulted people wearing Google Glass in the street [2], and shot out commuter bus windows on the freeway [3]. Company merch just attracted the wrong kind of attention. The situation was getting bad then, sounds like it’s only gotten worse with the election. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_tech_bus_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_tech_bus_protest... [1] https://www.berkeleyside.com/2014/01/22/activists-target-google-employee-berkeley-resident https://www.berkeleyside.com/2014/01/22/activists-target-goo... [2] https://www.businessinsider.com/i-was-assaulted-for-wearing-google-glass-2014-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/i-was-assaulted-for-wearing-... [3] https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/apple-google-buses-rerouted-on-peninsula-after-apparent-shooting-damages-windows/ https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/apple-google-buses-rerouted-...

arduanika 6y ago
If you want to keep a truly low profile, I hope you don't zero-index your citations out in public!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

Geminidog 6y ago

People in this thread are talking about attacks on tech workers in general that aren’t exclusive to Facebook. It’s a lashing out sparked by wealth inequality and people knowing something is wrong with this country but not sure who to attack or vote for. Nobody lashes out against Amazon warehouse workers because of brand.

patagonia 6y ago

We went through this at AIG during the financial crisis. No fun. I feel for them. We had to return our security badges and exchange them for new ones without AIG identifiable info on them so that we wouldn’t get harassed on the subway. And were told to keep quiet about who we worked for. 99% of the people at AIG had nothing to do with the business that contributed to the financial crisis. In fact, the business unit most responsible was in Connecticut (we were in the Financial District in Manhattan). So it was pretty frustrating to be a worker bee making a middle income salary and having no insight to or ability to influence the issues causing the financial crisis, and yet having strangers wanting to yell at or physically harm you.

Geminidog 6y ago

I think people need to look at the bigger issues. What caused 70 million people to vote for trump and what caused a mob to descend onto the government building in the first place. People on the other side of the wealth divide sense something is wrong with this country but are unable to put their finger on what. Attacks on tech workers is really a surface level issue. Misguided radicalism happens in places with deep economic issues caused by things that are too complex to completely reason out. What causes wealth inequality? Nobody can put their finger on it but people will make up a reason if they have too. Usually that reason involves attacking anyone and any symbol on the other side of the wealth divide.

ahelwer 6y ago
This myth that trump supporters are humble working class people needs to end. These are people with money. Guns are expensive. Travel is expensive. These people have means. See this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/11/13/white-trump-voters-are-richer-than-they-appear/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/11/13/white-tru... Just because someone wears Carhartt and drives a kitted-out truck doesn't mean they're working class. That's a costume, and you were fooled.
- Geminidog 6y ago
  https://www.bruegel.org/2016/11/income-inequality-boosted-trump-vote/ https://www.bruegel.org/2016/11/income-inequality-boosted-tr... https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/11/03/americas-inequality-election/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/11/03/americas-inequality-ele... My conclusions are based on data. Which further fuels the confusion. We can engage in an endless argument on who’s data is garbage and who’s is not
  - ahelwer 6y ago
    Look at median income and things are different: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps-working-class-support/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps...

aspyct 6y ago

I know I'm not supposed to complain about lousy web design. I've been told in the past. I know. But still. I don't have an ad blocker. I'm using a run-of-the-mill browser here. Won't tell which one, you would probably laugh. And the website is blocking me on grounds of having an ad blocker. And there's no way around it. I can click "learn more", only to be redirected to another page which is equally blocked by this "we need your money" shit. Look, I understand you need money to survive. But at least give us a way to contact you, or something? EDIT: Well, I have a PiHole which I forgot about, actually. So they're probably right on the ad blocker. lol EDIT2: Oh no, that's hilarious. It actually happens because I've rejected permissions on their cookie popup.

IceWreck 6y ago
Internet Explorer ? Midori ? Epiphany ? Konqueror ? BTW I am using an adblocker (uBlock Origin) and it is not blocking me, prolly because it also blocks its anti-adblock script.
- Const-me 6y ago
  Could be the network. Long ago I’ve worked in companies where ads were blocked in the centralized manner, a blacklist by DNS or IP in the main router.
- aspyct 6y ago
  > because it also blocks its anti-adblock script. Ahahah that's good!
hellojason 6y ago
That’s odd. I’m using an ad blocker and a PiHole, and the site loads fine for me. Ad block detection is hard, I guess.
- aspyct 6y ago
  PiHole and strict privacy settings on the browser. I'm guessing the settings are a little too strict for them. I'd be ok with (some kinds of) ads, but I guess that always comes with privacy issues.

bkirkby 6y ago

back in mid-90s i did a contract job for a field office of the FBI. they had a policy that we were required to remove our ID badges when we left the building (to go to lunch or whatever). the building itself was also devoid of any signs that indicated this contained an FBI office. interestingly enough, a few months later, i was contracted for another job at a different FBI field office. that one had a sign out front and seemed surprised when i asked if i needed to remove my badge before leaving the building.

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Mc_Big_G 6y ago

Maybe Facebook should change their policies instead of their clothes.

sershe 6y ago

I foresee a small, but non-negligible market for swag that says, in tiny letters "i don't work in" and then in regular-sized letters "facebook" ;) I'd wear that (I don't work in Facebook, but don't share the conviction that Facebook is evil either).

hnburnsy 6y ago

Feels like Facebook said the same thing about Hacker News. I rarely see posts by current employees, which is really disappointing as I would love to hear about the tech issues they encounter.

lbrandy 6y ago
I used to post quite a bit more. Times have changed.
- hnburnsy 6y ago
  Thanks, hope you can continue to contribute here without retribution.
danbrooks 6y ago
I'm starting at Facebook in two weeks. I was looking forward to the branded swag too...

hikerclimber 6y ago

this goes to show that our corporations have too much power...

01100011 6y ago

As a FAANNG employee, I generally avoid all company swag because I don't want to flaunt my wealth(which is vastly less than a lot of you but more than your average Joe). There's already enough property crime in the bay area. I don't want to be the next victim.

kepler1 6y ago

We'll know we've reached the tipping point when even the homeless guy on the corner says to an offer of FB clothing, "no way man, I'm not wearing that shit".

madrox 6y ago

I used to work at a company with a 100 year old brand, and they took their perception seriously. Every few years, they conducted a brand audit and I got to attend an internal presentation on how they do it. Along the way, they mentioned that Facebook has the same brand perception as the IRS. This was about eight years ago. So yeah, I can also see auditors not wanting to wear their IRS swag...especially during tax season.

newacct583 6y ago
What is wrong with this site?! They aren't talking about popularity. They are talking about violence. They aren't saying that Facebook people are ashamed and trying to hide their affiliation. They are saying they think they'll get hurt because of where they work. What can't we take this seriously? There was a right wing terror attack just days ago, rhetoric all over the internet is filled with imagery of violence and revolt and retribution. And all anyone wants to talk about is the spin directed in the other direction about who is culpable, and whether or not content moderation and censorship are the same thing, and whether or not it actually constituted a coup. But, people got hurt and killed on Wednesday, and the same communities continue to threaten the same kind of thing. Is it so hard to believe that people at Facebook or Twitter or wherever, who are geeks just like us, are genuinely afraid right now? I'll take my downvotes now, thanks.
- s1artibartfast 6y ago
  It is unclear what exactly you are objecting to.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  > Is it so hard to believe that people at Facebook or Twitter or wherever, who are geeks just like us, are genuinely afraid right now? The person you replied to didn't suggest otherwise. You seem to be ranting at someone who is just pointing out that being associated with Facebook is much like being associated with the IRS... another very unpopular and potentially dangerous job.
- cmdshiftf4 6y ago

chrismsimpson 6y ago

Mark acknowledging his brand is now toxic to both the left and the right and not a moment too soon. Love it.

meekmockmook 6y ago

I know it's hard when you've got a family to feed, but any FB employee who won't consider quitting at this point has made a deal with the devil.

snarf21 6y ago
I think "this point" was years ago.
JimTheMan 6y ago
You could also say the same of those working in oil and gas, coal, tobacco, whatever. As much as we want individuals to be held to accountable, shouldn't it be the leadership of the company AND especially government that are ultimately responsible. They ultimately define the companies/practices existing as they do.
- confidantlake 6y ago
  I agree mostly but at the same time we elect the government and facebook influences our vote. We influence the gov and the gov influences us.
  - JimTheMan 6y ago
    A vicious feedback loop of media and lobbying.
tooltower 6y ago
"At this point, anyone who pays taxes to the US government has made a deal with the devil." Some of these companies are as big as a small city. How much control or responsibility would you say an average resident of the city carries over the actions of their city council? Edit: forgot to add disclaimer. I work for one of these giant companies, but not Facebook.
esoterica 6y ago
The irony about people who complain about FB being evil is that half the complainers think they don't do enough to censor "bad" content and the other half think they censor too aggressively. If you can't even agree on "why" Facebook is evil, then maybe their supposed evilness is subjective and not as obvious and incontrovertible as so many seem to pretend it is? Maybe there is nothing they can do that will morally satisfy everyone, since moving in any direction to appease one faction will anger another?

fossuser 6y ago

Facebook did the right thing here by booting trump off the platform and Mark Zuckerberg’s statement was good. They didn’t change their policy, the context changed and Zuckerberg said as much. Wouldn't the illegal state action here be forcing facebook or twitter to keep trump on their site? That seems like a violation of twitter's speech and their first amendment rights. IANAL, but I don't think private companies are forced to provide access - they are allowed ToS and allowed to ban. FB, Twitter, etc. were bending over backwards to allow speech in violation of their policies because they thought that public access to the speech of elected politicians in rule of law democracies was important. With rule of law in question and direct incitement of violence they've changed tact (clearly within their legal right as I understand it). [0] There's a quiet irony here that the same ideology that argues it's right for a private business to refuse to bake a cake for a gay couple in violation of a protected characteristic, is okay with forcing a private company to provide service to those aligned with their interests. Inciting insurrection is not a protected characteristic. The fact employees have to be cautious about wearing the brand is because the faction that carried out the attack is dangerous, not because what Facebook did was wrong. [0]: https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/16/mark-zuckerberg-and-free-speech.html https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/16/mark-zuckerberg-and-f...

armagon 6y ago
"FB, Twitter, etc. were bending over backwards to allow speech in violation of their policies because they thought that public access to the speech of elected politicians in rule of law democracies was important." I think that was their mistake. They should've banned the accounts at that point, showing that (as the law in a democracy says) no one is above the law. [They should likewise act on other accounts, of all political persuasions]. As it is, it looks like they all colluded to deplatform Trump at the same time -- as though his messages were a fun toy so long as it served their purposes, and worthy of derision as soon as it didn't.
- fossuser 6y ago
  I think you’re being overly cynical and I don’t agree. I think they take their power seriously and there is a real distinction in the context prior to 1/6. I write about why this is hard in my blog post linked in the other comment. Things changed with trump’s incitement of the assault on the capitol. I think the decisions they made at each point made sense. This isn’t an obvious or easy problem to answer. In the absence of policy they’ve become de-facto regulators. We’ve had a non functioning legislative body for a while and America seems to specialize in bad workarounds for missing policy.

gr4yb34rd 6y ago

I learned this lesson in 1998 while working for MindSpring. A customer spotted my company shirt while at a gas station and threatened to kill me over tech support hold times. I never wore another employer-branded shirt in public.