11 ms·

Messenger Comparisons – Threema, Signal, Telegram and WhatsApp

73 points by jiehong 6y ago

sleepless 6y ago
XMPP sadly is not part of the comparison.
- guiraldelli 6y ago
  Exactly. XMPP: * supports three encryption methods (OMEMO, OpenPGP, OTR); * has a great amount of clients [1]; * and also of servers [2]; * it is federated; * the protocol [3] and the most established clients and servers are open; * there are already several online services available to use [4]. And as a bonus, the famous "XMPP's myths & legends" [5]. [1]: https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html [2]: https://xmpp.org/software/servers.html https://xmpp.org/software/servers.html [3]: https://xmpp.org/extensions/ https://xmpp.org/extensions/ [4]: https://list.jabber.at/ https://list.jabber.at/ [5]: https://xmpp.org/about/myths.html https://xmpp.org/about/myths.html
novok 6y ago
You can actually use whatsapp without address book access. I use it like that today
quyleanh 6y ago
Not a fee app will be disadvantage of Threema. I cannot be convince my friends, my family switch from Signal, since we are happy with it.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
sudeepj 6y ago
The comparison will be outdated soon. With recent surge of Signal, expect some features which are most commonly asked. Signal team did an AMA in last few days [1] [Few of the Q/A] Q: Is there any plans to make user ID system, so that we can add friends without knowing the phone numbers? Ans: Yeah, we're working on it! Q: Hi, is it possible to backup chat history? Ans: Thanks, we know this is a big deal and think about it a lot. We're working on ways to do it that would be privacy preserving... Q: These things would really make the experience for my family and I complete Support for backups and transfer on Android. Not manual, but automatic like iOS Support for ChromeOS via Android Tablet support Support for simple markdown like bold, strike through etc. Ans: Great list, we're working on all of these! [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/kt91qk/signal_private_messenger_team_here_we_support_an/ https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/kt91qk/signal_p...
- johnchristopher 6y ago
  I don't think the sudden increase in users will accelerate the implementation of new features. These things must be planned and coded. They did right in stating so soon in the exodus that expected features are planned and coming.
  - sudeepj 6y ago
    The sudden uptick should create some sense of urgency, else they will loose out to other apps. I can imagine how pumped-up the folks at signal will be (atleast I hope so) There are lot of low-hanging fruits which are quality of life improvement e.g #1 ask from my non-technical family members: Background wallpaper :) Another feature: WhatsApp migration + Its open source, if they are willing to accept PRs things could accelerate
    - newscracker 6y ago
      > The sudden uptick should create some sense of urgency, else they will loose out to other apps. It seems like you’ve never followed Signal closely (or what happens with feedback and requests). Signal is not one to worry about losing out to other apps. If that had been the case, it would be a lot more feature rich by now than what it is. Signal moves at a glacial pace compared to its competitors.
      - zeegroen 6y ago
        Good news! https://twitter.com/signalapp/status/1348785240819466242?s=19 https://twitter.com/signalapp/status/1348785240819466242?s=1... > Here's a sneak peek at some new Signal features that will start rolling out in a few days: > > • Chat wallpapers! >• About field for your Signal profile > • Animated stickers >• For iOS: Media auto-download settings and full-screen profile photos (to match Android) > > Good morning 🇮🇳! https://t.co/KEAbhMswRI https://t.co/KEAbhMswRI
- wyuenho 6y ago
  I really don't think Signal is going to dramatically improve on their feature set any time "soon". The gap between any feature Signal copied from Telegram is 2-3 years, they haven't exactly been known to be quick to respond to UI fixes and feature requests.
Bancakes 6y ago
Element is FOSS and runs on Matrix. E2EE with stern verifications. Nice GUI. I think it's better than Jami and a good Discord alternative. https://element.io/ https://element.io/
- mlatu 6y ago
  I just set up my own homeserver, it's a breeze. I wonder how matrix would hold up in the linked comparison.
  - Bancakes 6y ago
    Same as threma minus polls.
    - fsflover 6y ago
      Plus decentralization.
- robertlagrant 6y ago
  That looks interesting, yeah.
- GekkePrutser 6y ago
  Yeah Matrix is great (I don't like the Vector/Riot/Element client much though, I wish the other clients were a bit comparable in terms of their development as Element seems to take up most of the attention). It's not very efficient with screen space, if you have a LOT of chats open (many bridges!) it's hard to find what's what. But the E2E verifications I do find troublesome. I constantly have to re-verify contacts, it's way too much in the way of smooth communication. I wish there was a way to auto-enable (but warn of a key change) them like Whatsapp does. It's not as secure, but you really have to be a crypto geek to constantly compare fingerprints whenever they change or get added. I often log in to different devices (different browsers on machines at home, work, test phones etc). And everything has to be validated. Whatsapp and Signal handle this way way better. This way it just won't make it to the mainstream. I can't expect my contacts to click buttons every time I log into a new browser or clear my cookies. In the end I just got sick of all these crypto warnings and I ended up switching to something else again. I re-try Matrix every once in a while but it's still not there. Also, for me E2E crypto is not a major thing as I run my own server anyway (which I trust). But some of my friends want it switched on as they also use it on other chat apps. PS: Not trying to blast Matrix here, but I do find this a problem for adoption. Otherwise I think it's way better than any other chat app.
EtiusPrime 6y ago
'More' independent overview: https://www.securemessagingapps.com/ https://www.securemessagingapps.com/ i recommend Wickr Me. Its free, Privacy friendly and (almost) stable.
- rvieira 6y ago
  Why isn't Keybase included in most of these matrices? Is it related to some kind of "messaging" definition?
  - sanqui 6y ago
    While I put high hopes in Keybase and the chat was solid, it's a zombie app at this point. The project came to a halt when they got acquired by Zoom, as evidenced by [1]. [1] https://github.com/keybase/client/graphs/contributors https://github.com/keybase/client/graphs/contributors
    - phreack 6y ago
      The writing was on the wall the moment the acquisition was announced, and we all grieved about it, but it still makes me very sad to see such a graph. I miss Keybase.
- 1_player 6y ago
  What's with Wickr? I never heard of it until yesterday, when a message out of the blue on Reddit asked me why am I not using it (with the excuse that I said I didn't like it, which is false), and now this poster with no comment history. Probably confirmation bias so I'll bite. It's not open source, collects some data, it's a for-profit company. Why would I use it?
  - sorenjan 6y ago
    The only time I've seen it used has been by people looking to buy drugs. It's so closely related that a single "wickr?" post on social media is basically synonymous with drug deals.
zuhayeer 6y ago
While I love all these open source, privacy centered efforts, the fragmentation across all these alternatives isn't helping with the already horrible network effects amongst friends. Barely any of my friends use these other apps making all of them pretty useless. Seems like a lot of apps will enjoy really high initial install numbers, but gravity may just pull everyone straight back to WhatsApp.
- Bancakes 6y ago
  I have yet to find any tangible difference b/w Wire, Element, Threema, and Jami. And whatever FSF-approved apps people use, too.
- pwdisswordfish0 6y ago
  tbh, I love the fragmentation. I have only one contact in Threema so for all intents and purposes that app icon is her. On most other platforms I also chat disproportionately with a single person and I find it somewhat annoying when someone else contacts me on them, because I expect the Facebook Messenger notification to be that person, the Threema notification to be another and the Instagram notification to be yet another. The biggest wildcard is Whatsapp – could be work, could be my mom.
- ngcc_hk 6y ago
  like Microsoft browser we can use that to launch others always. Just use it to install chrome.
kelvich 6y ago
Comparison matrix is inaccurate about Telegram in few rows: > Service runs its own server [no] Telegram uses own servers > GDPR compliance [no] There is @GDPRbot, https://telegram.org/faq#q-what-about-gdpr https://telegram.org/faq#q-what-about-gdpr
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dbrgn 6y ago
  > Telegram uses own servers Is there any official documentation about this? I checked, and could only find a note about their servers in the EU (Netherlands).
- ComodoHacker 6y ago
  >Service runs its own server They mean it as "the service provider operates and runs all servers, and there are no cloud or hosting services (such as Amazon AWS or Google Cloud) involved" I'm not sure if it's really an advantage or a weakness. Telegram runs both own and hosted servers, and also allows volunteers to host relaying proxies to circumvent censorship.
  - ComodoHacker 6y ago
    I have to correct myself, Pavel Durov has stated they use only their own cloud infrastructure: https://t.me/durovschat/544164 https://t.me/durovschat/544164
- qznc 6y ago
  How are any of the others violating GDPR?
  - solstice 6y ago
    Same question. Especially relating to Signal
- kevincox 6y ago
rhamzeh 6y ago
While this (Threema) is Open Source, I feel it does not align with the spirit of FOSS. See the commits here for example: https://github.com/threema-ch/threema-android/commits/main https://github.com/threema-ch/threema-android/commits/main It's one commit per version. Contributions go to a private email instead of a public mailing list. All development happens in private and pushed to the public in a version bump with no changelog. So yeah it has an AGPL License (which is good) and meets the minimum of FOSS requirements, but it gives of the feeling that they're following the letter, but not the spirit of FOSS. I would definitely not use it or push any friend to use it.
- rozab 6y ago
  That's... strange. Whats even the point of being on GitHub in this case, why not just distribute a source tarball with each release?
- dijit 6y ago
  it used to be a paid app/service (quite an expensive one) it's only recently been open sourced. Definitely not "FOSS-first", but it's something.
  - b6z 6y ago
    I paid €0.80 for the app in 2014. Yes, that was a temporary discount, normal price was €2.99, I think. It is €3.99 now, single payment. I still wouldn't call that expensive.
    - dijit 6y ago
      40:- SEK puts it in the top 10% of all iOS Apps. Its contemporaries are free. Ergo, it is comparatively expensive.
- beojan 6y ago
  This is the cathedral style of development which was historically how GNU was developed, so I think it's perfectly in the spirit of Free Software.
bjoli 6y ago
Threema has no forward secrecy outside of TLS, which is objectively worse than the others provided the comparison is with telegram's secret chats.
chli 6y ago
I like Threema because it has a business model that sounds viable and doesn't rely on donations or advertisement. - Paid app for general public (one-time fee) - Separate "Enterprise" solution (Threema "Work") with paid subscriptions
- mbrad 6y ago
  Didn't Whatsapp start out like that?
T3RMINATED 6y ago
No one talks about King VIBER anymore?!
whalesalad 6y ago
The name of this product, Threema, is going to be a significant detriment to its adoption.
- dunefox 6y ago
  And why would that be?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- bertman 6y ago
  It's a pun: https://threema.ch/en/faq/name_origin https://threema.ch/en/faq/name_origin On the one hand, it's harder to pronounce than, say, Signal, and it has no inherent meaning like, say, Telegram, but look at Whatsapp...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tpm 6y ago
This is probably little known outside of Slovakia: There is an still ongoing huge political and criminal scandal: a shady mafia-like figure (Marian Kocner) has (allegedly) ordered the murder of a journalist. The journalist and his girlfriend were shot and during the investigations Kocners phone(s) were found (or more exactly another shady person gave them to the police). Not only were undeleted Threema messages extracted, but also (allegedly) many deleted Threema communications were succesfully extracted and presented in court. While Kocner was in that particular case exonerated in first instance (it's now in the Highest Court), the messages were leaked to the press and led to the abdication of the then prime minister (Robert Fico), the loss of the then ruling coalition in the next elections, and now because of those decoded messages, many judges, prosecutors, politicians, policemen etc are locked up and investigated - Marian Kocner directly gave them orders through Threema. The former head of police has even hanged himself in the prison a few days ago (because of a different, but connected, scandal). While this is more about the general state of affairs in Slovakia, it's interesting how the compromised security of an app they thought was "fully" secure has impacted the Slovakian political landscape.
- dunefox 6y ago
  Sources please.
  - tpm 6y ago
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/03/slovakian-businessman-cleared-of-ordering-journalist-jan-kuciak-murder https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/03/slovakian-busi... https://spectator.sme.sk/c/22231150/threema-as-evidence-in-the-kuciak-murder-case.html https://spectator.sme.sk/c/22231150/threema-as-evidence-in-t... https://spectator.sme.sk/c/22397627/threema-messages-fico-dragged-into-process-with-kocner.html https://spectator.sme.sk/c/22397627/threema-messages-fico-dr...
    - tpm 6y ago
      even better: https://www.occrp.org/en/a-journalists-undying-legacy/kocners-world https://www.occrp.org/en/a-journalists-undying-legacy/kocner...
traveler01 6y ago
These comparisons speak like Telegram sometimes don't encrypt the messages which is false. It always does, difference it store them on the cloud.
- tao_oat 6y ago
  Encryption in transit / at rest are arguably so common that they're not really worth mentioning as a differentiator. Are there any messengers that don't do this? I'd say the qualitative different to E2EE is quite major.
  - traveler01 6y ago
    Well yeah you're right. But makes sense Telegram storing them in the servers. You can use the APP without an active Wifi connection thanks to that. Also, you can always choose to chat using end-to-end.
cyxxon 6y ago
For me a problem is that Threema sounds nice on paper, but it feels unstable and a bit clunky. Worst for me os that the Read/Unread status is not replicated correctly between Threema Web and the iOS app, so I always have unread messages everywhere. This is unrelated to notifications, it is just the chat view that shows that some messages are unread, and the accompanying unread message count on the app icon.
newscracker 6y ago
> No address-book access required > It’s not necessary to grant access to the address book in order to use the service. This section incorrectly marks WhatsApp with an X, stating that it mandates it. The fact is that WhatsApp can very well be used without giving it access to the contacts or address book. This section should have a yes for all the services in the list.
- jlokier 6y ago
  WhatsApp behaviour without your address book is quite half-baked, perhaps intentionally to pressure you to giving it access. If you don't grant it access, it won't let you associated any name with messages and conversations. Everything shows up with just its raw phone number, and the list of conversations is a list of raw phone numbers with messages, which makes it hard to know who messages are from.
- Yizahi 6y ago
  A long time ago when first installing Whatsapp I tried denying it access to Contacts. It literally didn't work, only showed me white screen with no obvious way to start a chat with someone.
freebuju 6y ago
While all these other privacy-respecting messaging alternatives are getting more attention after WhatsApp's updated privacy policy, it would be prudent to note that most casual users will be clicking yes as soon as the new policy pops up. Sometimes it's not a case of not knowing any better. The convenience of reaching almost any of your contacts directly from WA cannot be understated. This is what Signal & co. are up against. Most old folks won't be switching as WA just works for them. It also doesn't help matters that data plans from ALL telecoms in my country come with FREE WhatsApp bundles.
- jlokier 6y ago
  I just spoke with someone who clicked "agree" recently to the WhatsApp updated policy, and said they didn't know what they were agreeing to, they just assumed it was one of those numerous minor tweaks to some obscure policy wording. They didn't really have a choice though, because WhatsApp is now the only way they communicate with a family member, who doesn't have a phone any more. They both use a Facebook Portal instead. I think it should be illegal to put users in a position where they are pressured to agree to something without significant effects of agreeing being made clear. And I think they should be able to return the Portals for a refund when something like this changes on them.
  - freebuju 6y ago
    Excuse my ignorance but you've just educated me on the product Facebook portal. I've never been more terrified of a communications gadget. I shudder thinking of how many unaware users are actively giving Facebook their bio data, exact location & whatever info they give to them when they invite FB into their lives like this. Whew! On policy agreements vis-a-vis user privacy, it is a bit of a conundrum that I don't see the normal consumer winning. WhatsApp/Facebook are doing nothing illegal by giving users these new terms. The major problem with such T&C is that the normal user cannot fully understand the contents of them. I will confess to being one of them. Most of them are written effectively to be nothing but legalese scapegoats. With jargons the average Joe cannot comprehend. This I see is the biggest obstacle to every day privacy & user data protection. Bonus fact: it's not just Facebook knowingly doing this for profit. Many everyday services which we click & agree yes to are doing so. Someone above just pointed out that sometimes they click yes because they know big tech already have their data or will at some point obtain it, why delay the obvious outcome? Though this shouldn't mean you cannot feed them fake data at any given point/excuse. Privacy battle is not for those who give up easy.
utf_8x 6y ago
They forgot to mention one crucial thing - only Signal has an open-source backend.
- iforgotpassword 6y ago
  Irrelevant for E2EE.
anaisbetts 6y ago
Can someone make this comparison that doesn't have a biased viewpoint towards these products? This is promotional material, not a fair comparison

73 points by jiehong 6y ago

sleepless 6y ago

XMPP sadly is not part of the comparison.

guiraldelli 6y ago
Exactly. XMPP: * supports three encryption methods (OMEMO, OpenPGP, OTR); * has a great amount of clients [1]; * and also of servers [2]; * it is federated; * the protocol [3] and the most established clients and servers are open; * there are already several online services available to use [4]. And as a bonus, the famous "XMPP's myths & legends" [5]. [1]: https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html [2]: https://xmpp.org/software/servers.html https://xmpp.org/software/servers.html [3]: https://xmpp.org/extensions/ https://xmpp.org/extensions/ [4]: https://list.jabber.at/ https://list.jabber.at/ [5]: https://xmpp.org/about/myths.html https://xmpp.org/about/myths.html

novok 6y ago

You can actually use whatsapp without address book access. I use it like that today

quyleanh 6y ago

Not a fee app will be disadvantage of Threema. I cannot be convince my friends, my family switch from Signal, since we are happy with it.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

sudeepj 6y ago

The comparison will be outdated soon. With recent surge of Signal, expect some features which are most commonly asked. Signal team did an AMA in last few days [1] [Few of the Q/A] Q: Is there any plans to make user ID system, so that we can add friends without knowing the phone numbers? Ans: Yeah, we're working on it! Q: Hi, is it possible to backup chat history? Ans: Thanks, we know this is a big deal and think about it a lot. We're working on ways to do it that would be privacy preserving... Q: These things would really make the experience for my family and I complete Support for backups and transfer on Android. Not manual, but automatic like iOS Support for ChromeOS via Android Tablet support Support for simple markdown like bold, strike through etc. Ans: Great list, we're working on all of these! [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/kt91qk/signal_private_messenger_team_here_we_support_an/ https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/kt91qk/signal_p...

johnchristopher 6y ago
I don't think the sudden increase in users will accelerate the implementation of new features. These things must be planned and coded. They did right in stating so soon in the exodus that expected features are planned and coming.
- sudeepj 6y ago
  The sudden uptick should create some sense of urgency, else they will loose out to other apps. I can imagine how pumped-up the folks at signal will be (atleast I hope so) There are lot of low-hanging fruits which are quality of life improvement e.g #1 ask from my non-technical family members: Background wallpaper :) Another feature: WhatsApp migration + Its open source, if they are willing to accept PRs things could accelerate
  - newscracker 6y ago
    > The sudden uptick should create some sense of urgency, else they will loose out to other apps. It seems like you’ve never followed Signal closely (or what happens with feedback and requests). Signal is not one to worry about losing out to other apps. If that had been the case, it would be a lot more feature rich by now than what it is. Signal moves at a glacial pace compared to its competitors.
    - zeegroen 6y ago
      Good news! https://twitter.com/signalapp/status/1348785240819466242?s=19 https://twitter.com/signalapp/status/1348785240819466242?s=1... > Here's a sneak peek at some new Signal features that will start rolling out in a few days: > > • Chat wallpapers! >• About field for your Signal profile > • Animated stickers >• For iOS: Media auto-download settings and full-screen profile photos (to match Android) > > Good morning 🇮🇳! https://t.co/KEAbhMswRI https://t.co/KEAbhMswRI
wyuenho 6y ago
I really don't think Signal is going to dramatically improve on their feature set any time "soon". The gap between any feature Signal copied from Telegram is 2-3 years, they haven't exactly been known to be quick to respond to UI fixes and feature requests.

Bancakes 6y ago

Element is FOSS and runs on Matrix. E2EE with stern verifications. Nice GUI. I think it's better than Jami and a good Discord alternative. https://element.io/ https://element.io/

mlatu 6y ago
I just set up my own homeserver, it's a breeze. I wonder how matrix would hold up in the linked comparison.
- Bancakes 6y ago
  Same as threma minus polls.
  - fsflover 6y ago
    Plus decentralization.
robertlagrant 6y ago
That looks interesting, yeah.
GekkePrutser 6y ago
Yeah Matrix is great (I don't like the Vector/Riot/Element client much though, I wish the other clients were a bit comparable in terms of their development as Element seems to take up most of the attention). It's not very efficient with screen space, if you have a LOT of chats open (many bridges!) it's hard to find what's what. But the E2E verifications I do find troublesome. I constantly have to re-verify contacts, it's way too much in the way of smooth communication. I wish there was a way to auto-enable (but warn of a key change) them like Whatsapp does. It's not as secure, but you really have to be a crypto geek to constantly compare fingerprints whenever they change or get added. I often log in to different devices (different browsers on machines at home, work, test phones etc). And everything has to be validated. Whatsapp and Signal handle this way way better. This way it just won't make it to the mainstream. I can't expect my contacts to click buttons every time I log into a new browser or clear my cookies. In the end I just got sick of all these crypto warnings and I ended up switching to something else again. I re-try Matrix every once in a while but it's still not there. Also, for me E2E crypto is not a major thing as I run my own server anyway (which I trust). But some of my friends want it switched on as they also use it on other chat apps. PS: Not trying to blast Matrix here, but I do find this a problem for adoption. Otherwise I think it's way better than any other chat app.

EtiusPrime 6y ago

'More' independent overview: https://www.securemessagingapps.com/ https://www.securemessagingapps.com/ i recommend Wickr Me. Its free, Privacy friendly and (almost) stable.

rvieira 6y ago
Why isn't Keybase included in most of these matrices? Is it related to some kind of "messaging" definition?
- sanqui 6y ago
  While I put high hopes in Keybase and the chat was solid, it's a zombie app at this point. The project came to a halt when they got acquired by Zoom, as evidenced by [1]. [1] https://github.com/keybase/client/graphs/contributors https://github.com/keybase/client/graphs/contributors
  - phreack 6y ago
    The writing was on the wall the moment the acquisition was announced, and we all grieved about it, but it still makes me very sad to see such a graph. I miss Keybase.
1_player 6y ago
What's with Wickr? I never heard of it until yesterday, when a message out of the blue on Reddit asked me why am I not using it (with the excuse that I said I didn't like it, which is false), and now this poster with no comment history. Probably confirmation bias so I'll bite. It's not open source, collects some data, it's a for-profit company. Why would I use it?
- sorenjan 6y ago
  The only time I've seen it used has been by people looking to buy drugs. It's so closely related that a single "wickr?" post on social media is basically synonymous with drug deals.

zuhayeer 6y ago

While I love all these open source, privacy centered efforts, the fragmentation across all these alternatives isn't helping with the already horrible network effects amongst friends. Barely any of my friends use these other apps making all of them pretty useless. Seems like a lot of apps will enjoy really high initial install numbers, but gravity may just pull everyone straight back to WhatsApp.

Bancakes 6y ago
I have yet to find any tangible difference b/w Wire, Element, Threema, and Jami. And whatever FSF-approved apps people use, too.
pwdisswordfish0 6y ago
tbh, I love the fragmentation. I have only one contact in Threema so for all intents and purposes that app icon is her. On most other platforms I also chat disproportionately with a single person and I find it somewhat annoying when someone else contacts me on them, because I expect the Facebook Messenger notification to be that person, the Threema notification to be another and the Instagram notification to be yet another. The biggest wildcard is Whatsapp – could be work, could be my mom.
ngcc_hk 6y ago
like Microsoft browser we can use that to launch others always. Just use it to install chrome.

kelvich 6y ago

Comparison matrix is inaccurate about Telegram in few rows: > Service runs its own server [no] Telegram uses own servers > GDPR compliance [no] There is @GDPRbot, https://telegram.org/faq#q-what-about-gdpr https://telegram.org/faq#q-what-about-gdpr

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dbrgn 6y ago
> Telegram uses own servers Is there any official documentation about this? I checked, and could only find a note about their servers in the EU (Netherlands).
ComodoHacker 6y ago
>Service runs its own server They mean it as "the service provider operates and runs all servers, and there are no cloud or hosting services (such as Amazon AWS or Google Cloud) involved" I'm not sure if it's really an advantage or a weakness. Telegram runs both own and hosted servers, and also allows volunteers to host relaying proxies to circumvent censorship.
- ComodoHacker 6y ago
  I have to correct myself, Pavel Durov has stated they use only their own cloud infrastructure: https://t.me/durovschat/544164 https://t.me/durovschat/544164
qznc 6y ago
How are any of the others violating GDPR?
- solstice 6y ago
  Same question. Especially relating to Signal
kevincox 6y ago

rhamzeh 6y ago

While this (Threema) is Open Source, I feel it does not align with the spirit of FOSS. See the commits here for example: https://github.com/threema-ch/threema-android/commits/main https://github.com/threema-ch/threema-android/commits/main It's one commit per version. Contributions go to a private email instead of a public mailing list. All development happens in private and pushed to the public in a version bump with no changelog. So yeah it has an AGPL License (which is good) and meets the minimum of FOSS requirements, but it gives of the feeling that they're following the letter, but not the spirit of FOSS. I would definitely not use it or push any friend to use it.

rozab 6y ago
That's... strange. Whats even the point of being on GitHub in this case, why not just distribute a source tarball with each release?
dijit 6y ago
it used to be a paid app/service (quite an expensive one) it's only recently been open sourced. Definitely not "FOSS-first", but it's something.
- b6z 6y ago
  I paid €0.80 for the app in 2014. Yes, that was a temporary discount, normal price was €2.99, I think. It is €3.99 now, single payment. I still wouldn't call that expensive.
  - dijit 6y ago
    40:- SEK puts it in the top 10% of all iOS Apps. Its contemporaries are free. Ergo, it is comparatively expensive.
beojan 6y ago
This is the cathedral style of development which was historically how GNU was developed, so I think it's perfectly in the spirit of Free Software.

bjoli 6y ago

Threema has no forward secrecy outside of TLS, which is objectively worse than the others provided the comparison is with telegram's secret chats.

chli 6y ago

I like Threema because it has a business model that sounds viable and doesn't rely on donations or advertisement. - Paid app for general public (one-time fee) - Separate "Enterprise" solution (Threema "Work") with paid subscriptions

mbrad 6y ago
Didn't Whatsapp start out like that?

T3RMINATED 6y ago

No one talks about King VIBER anymore?!

whalesalad 6y ago

The name of this product, Threema, is going to be a significant detriment to its adoption.

dunefox 6y ago
And why would that be?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
bertman 6y ago
It's a pun: https://threema.ch/en/faq/name_origin https://threema.ch/en/faq/name_origin On the one hand, it's harder to pronounce than, say, Signal, and it has no inherent meaning like, say, Telegram, but look at Whatsapp...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

tpm 6y ago

This is probably little known outside of Slovakia: There is an still ongoing huge political and criminal scandal: a shady mafia-like figure (Marian Kocner) has (allegedly) ordered the murder of a journalist. The journalist and his girlfriend were shot and during the investigations Kocners phone(s) were found (or more exactly another shady person gave them to the police). Not only were undeleted Threema messages extracted, but also (allegedly) many deleted Threema communications were succesfully extracted and presented in court. While Kocner was in that particular case exonerated in first instance (it's now in the Highest Court), the messages were leaked to the press and led to the abdication of the then prime minister (Robert Fico), the loss of the then ruling coalition in the next elections, and now because of those decoded messages, many judges, prosecutors, politicians, policemen etc are locked up and investigated - Marian Kocner directly gave them orders through Threema. The former head of police has even hanged himself in the prison a few days ago (because of a different, but connected, scandal). While this is more about the general state of affairs in Slovakia, it's interesting how the compromised security of an app they thought was "fully" secure has impacted the Slovakian political landscape.

dunefox 6y ago
Sources please.
- tpm 6y ago
  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/03/slovakian-businessman-cleared-of-ordering-journalist-jan-kuciak-murder https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/03/slovakian-busi... https://spectator.sme.sk/c/22231150/threema-as-evidence-in-the-kuciak-murder-case.html https://spectator.sme.sk/c/22231150/threema-as-evidence-in-t... https://spectator.sme.sk/c/22397627/threema-messages-fico-dragged-into-process-with-kocner.html https://spectator.sme.sk/c/22397627/threema-messages-fico-dr...
  - tpm 6y ago
    even better: https://www.occrp.org/en/a-journalists-undying-legacy/kocners-world https://www.occrp.org/en/a-journalists-undying-legacy/kocner...

traveler01 6y ago

These comparisons speak like Telegram sometimes don't encrypt the messages which is false. It always does, difference it store them on the cloud.

tao_oat 6y ago
Encryption in transit / at rest are arguably so common that they're not really worth mentioning as a differentiator. Are there any messengers that don't do this? I'd say the qualitative different to E2EE is quite major.
- traveler01 6y ago
  Well yeah you're right. But makes sense Telegram storing them in the servers. You can use the APP without an active Wifi connection thanks to that. Also, you can always choose to chat using end-to-end.

cyxxon 6y ago

For me a problem is that Threema sounds nice on paper, but it feels unstable and a bit clunky. Worst for me os that the Read/Unread status is not replicated correctly between Threema Web and the iOS app, so I always have unread messages everywhere. This is unrelated to notifications, it is just the chat view that shows that some messages are unread, and the accompanying unread message count on the app icon.

newscracker 6y ago

> No address-book access required > It’s not necessary to grant access to the address book in order to use the service. This section incorrectly marks WhatsApp with an X, stating that it mandates it. The fact is that WhatsApp can very well be used without giving it access to the contacts or address book. This section should have a yes for all the services in the list.

jlokier 6y ago
WhatsApp behaviour without your address book is quite half-baked, perhaps intentionally to pressure you to giving it access. If you don't grant it access, it won't let you associated any name with messages and conversations. Everything shows up with just its raw phone number, and the list of conversations is a list of raw phone numbers with messages, which makes it hard to know who messages are from.
Yizahi 6y ago
A long time ago when first installing Whatsapp I tried denying it access to Contacts. It literally didn't work, only showed me white screen with no obvious way to start a chat with someone.

freebuju 6y ago

While all these other privacy-respecting messaging alternatives are getting more attention after WhatsApp's updated privacy policy, it would be prudent to note that most casual users will be clicking yes as soon as the new policy pops up. Sometimes it's not a case of not knowing any better. The convenience of reaching almost any of your contacts directly from WA cannot be understated. This is what Signal & co. are up against. Most old folks won't be switching as WA just works for them. It also doesn't help matters that data plans from ALL telecoms in my country come with FREE WhatsApp bundles.

jlokier 6y ago
I just spoke with someone who clicked "agree" recently to the WhatsApp updated policy, and said they didn't know what they were agreeing to, they just assumed it was one of those numerous minor tweaks to some obscure policy wording. They didn't really have a choice though, because WhatsApp is now the only way they communicate with a family member, who doesn't have a phone any more. They both use a Facebook Portal instead. I think it should be illegal to put users in a position where they are pressured to agree to something without significant effects of agreeing being made clear. And I think they should be able to return the Portals for a refund when something like this changes on them.
- freebuju 6y ago
  Excuse my ignorance but you've just educated me on the product Facebook portal. I've never been more terrified of a communications gadget. I shudder thinking of how many unaware users are actively giving Facebook their bio data, exact location & whatever info they give to them when they invite FB into their lives like this. Whew! On policy agreements vis-a-vis user privacy, it is a bit of a conundrum that I don't see the normal consumer winning. WhatsApp/Facebook are doing nothing illegal by giving users these new terms. The major problem with such T&C is that the normal user cannot fully understand the contents of them. I will confess to being one of them. Most of them are written effectively to be nothing but legalese scapegoats. With jargons the average Joe cannot comprehend. This I see is the biggest obstacle to every day privacy & user data protection. Bonus fact: it's not just Facebook knowingly doing this for profit. Many everyday services which we click & agree yes to are doing so. Someone above just pointed out that sometimes they click yes because they know big tech already have their data or will at some point obtain it, why delay the obvious outcome? Though this shouldn't mean you cannot feed them fake data at any given point/excuse. Privacy battle is not for those who give up easy.

utf_8x 6y ago

They forgot to mention one crucial thing - only Signal has an open-source backend.

iforgotpassword 6y ago
Irrelevant for E2EE.

anaisbetts 6y ago

Can someone make this comparison that doesn't have a biased viewpoint towards these products? This is promotional material, not a fair comparison