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I'm also in the UK and I deleted WhatsApp 2 years ago when it became clear that Facebook intended to move in the direction of fuller integration (I deleted my F

I'm also in the UK and I deleted WhatsApp 2 years ago when it became clear that Facebook intended to move in the direction of fuller integration (I deleted my Facebook account after 1 month of usage 10 years ago). However, I had to reinstall WhatsApp because all of my kid's sports activities and school updates are organised through WhatsApp groups and it is impossible to participate without WhatsApp. Much as I believe in the cause, I'm not going to go preach it to the volunteers who coach my kids' rugby team. The scary thing here is that the actual real-life "social network" has been privatised and monopolised, and now we can't participate in society in very important ways without going through Facebook.

kar1181 6y ago
This is precisely the dilemma in a nutshell. You have a choice but it's a bit like voluntary solitary confinement. Especially during a lockdown.
- igravious 6y ago
  When I switched from Windows to Linux, sure there were some inconveniences but with enough technical knowledge and a bit of inconvenience I was able to get by. But social media? What do I switch to? > This is precisely the dilemma in a nutshell. Exactly my problem too (car mechanic, plumber, school parent committee, loads of my friends …) – I need my car fixed, I need my plumbing fixed, I need to communicate with other parents. I hate that I have no choice but to use a Facebook product when I am not even on Facebook!
- toprea 6y ago
  Just thinking out loud here, as I was considering something like this. I can also not give up the WhatsApp account due to the social pressure. What if I would use a second phone, a cheap one, used only for the whatsapp (and some other essential but privacy invasive apps). I would not have that second phone always with me, but it would provide me access to the social network I need without feeling tracked or providing more data than needed. I do understand that this doesn't fix exactly the issue presented here, but I already assumed that whatsapp data was already in Facebook's hands one way or another. But I would limit the amount of information that WhatsApp can track about me by having this application on a phone which does not really represent my full actions as i don't have it with me. Edit: Corrected some typos.
  - SamuelAdams 6y ago
    Trouble is you are privileged enough to be able to afford two phones. For many families, even a $300 device is a significant expense. So if your approach was the only approach, only the rich would have privacy.
    - CincinnatiMan 6y ago
      Why the use of the word “privilege”? We don’t know what balance of OP’s wealth is earned vs unearned (privilege).
      - cmpb 6y ago
        It could also be that he had the "privilege" to earn it (as not everyone has that privilege).
        skinkestek 6y ago
        Or it could be they just worked really hard or prioritised or what do I know. But I agree privilege is vastly overused.
        SkyBelow 6y ago
        Seems a bit reductionist of the concept of privilege because everything becomes privilege as there is someone who has experienced worse with few options. For an extreme example, dying with cancer becomes a privilege compared to someone who loses their life immediately in an accident. Only one of those two has a chance to say goodbye as well as prepare their friends and family.
        brigandish 6y ago
        It’s not just reductionist, it’s a misuse of the word in a way that is becoming more fashionable. Buying phones does not come under the meaning of privilege, unless perhaps you’re in prison (I struggle to think of an example that might occur and isn’t patently absurd). The rest of us can walk into a shop, those things that are open to the public. Hopefully this misuse is just a fad and we can go back to a more sensible use.
studius 6y ago
In the U.S., my experience with Whatsapp was that I created an account and never used it once to communicate with anyone, then I deleted it. I've also withdrawn from social media. The exception for now is HN, because it's more of a forum, even when bad information sometimes instates itself as reality for a large conversation, like a big gathering of fans talking about their team that will inevitably fail to win or perhaps a bad STD. I learn what others are doing through direct and intentional communication, even if technology is used or if the information is second-hand. I don't text back or call back immediately, which my friends and family forgive, but it sometimes seems to hurt my relationships. I still worry of dependence on large companies, big data companies gathering more information about me than I know myself, and the potential of out-of-control AIs. However, I attribute these in-part to my own paranoid thinking that use my memories of large company layoffs, privacy concerns raised in the tech community, and mostly fiction. While I've come to the realization that the act to trying to be happy and successful is the very thing that makes me unhappy, and I just need to exist, maybe becoming better at whatever I'm naturally good at, while being here and now with those I'm with, giving my service to them... I still keep wasting time replying about things that don't matter.
- teekert 6y ago
  WA is not particularly good, it's just that I don't know anyone who doesn't use it (in the Netherlands), even when you want to contact helpdesks it is sometimes the preferred way. I mean, we have this in many streets: [0] Without kids I could see myself getting away with not using WA, but with kids you are really setting yourself up for a very hard time (and prepare to be judged by other (annoyed) parents and your kid will feel the consequences at some point, the kids will miss out on critical and fun information). WA has almost become what email used to be. Except that it's a controlled platform and we are locked into a single provider, a provider that once promised a focus on privacy and an app free of commercials, forever... [0] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=whatsapp+buurtpreventie&t=ffsb&iax=images&ia=images&iai=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.nieuws.nl%2Fmedia%2Fsites%2F305%2F2015%2F12%2F05153708%2Fattentie-whatsapp-buurtpreventie.jpg https://duckduckgo.com/?q=whatsapp+buurtpreventie&t=ffsb&iax...
  - dtech 6y ago
edeion 6y ago
My experience is similar. I want to add that when I left WhatsApp (~2y ago) I deleted my account. WhatsApp kept accepting messages on my behalf. People didn't know I wasn't getting their messages. I'm surprised I don't see this mentioned to the point I wonder if I did something wrong at the time. In the end, I reopened a WhatsApp account recently because everyone is using WhatsApp in France and I couldn't stand breaking everyone's efforts to bring us together during lockdown.
- nindalf 6y ago
  > People didn't know I wasn't getting their messages. They saw 2 ticks, meaning delivered to your device? Or did they see one tick, meaning only delivered to the server? If it's the latter, that's a reasonable choice for the server to make. The server has acknowledged receipt of the message, and failed to send it to your device. If you wanted WhatsApp to advertise to your contacts that your account was inactive, you could have maybe sent them a message yourself?
  - xuki 6y ago
    > The server has acknowledged receipt of the message, and failed to send it to your device. Doing this without explicitly telling the other party is a dark pattern.
    - heipei 6y ago
      I would wager that most people using WhatsApp know the difference between one tick (server receipt), two ticks (client receipt) and two blue ticks (client actually read it).
      - andybak 6y ago
        I didn't know that until just now.
        cutemonster 6y ago
bigbizisverywyz 6y ago
the issue is that people would probably not want to pay for an app like WhatsApp, and so the 'free' alternative takes hold, and whoever controls that gets the cost of running the infrastructure in advertisement fees. If some company could set themselves up as a utility, and the mobile network operators were to pay that company to run the messaging app + infra, then it could be made to operate like a utility and nobodies data would have to be sold.
- __lazybyte 6y ago
  I could remember initially paying for a Whatsapp subscription a couple of years ago, I was happy to do so as I believed they were providing an essential service. I think that model could've worked.
  - flemhans 6y ago
    And wasn't it just $1 for a year?
- Cro_on 6y ago
  This could work as a good argument to switch if executed well. 'your device owns you and is siphoning cash from you'
hkt 6y ago
I tried to run a branch of a charity without WhatsApp and Facebook for two years and it was impossible. I had to give in and sign up. So, these things should be regulated and operated like utilities. Phone companies don't have the right to mine my contact list, and neither should Facebook.
driverdan 6y ago
> I'm not going to go preach it to the volunteers who coach my kids' rugby team. Why not? I would.
- speleding 6y ago
  And tell them what? Please all go install a different app? That only works if you can get everybody on board, it's unacceptable if a parent gets left out because he isn't there that day or cannot get it to work. You would also have to explain to them that Facebook cannot read your messages, but they can see the meta data. And then you have to explain to them what meta data is. I think your kid is not going to appreciate your efforts.
  - Cro_on 6y ago
    Wait for them to ask the why, tell them as succinctly as you can that fb is evil and there are alternatives.
    - whywhywhywhy 6y ago
      How do you tell them succinctly in a way they can understand that the company that makes two of their favorite apps IG and WhatsApp is evil?
      - Cro_on 6y ago
        'they deliberately fine tune their product to make it more addictive' 'yes, and?' 'other companies have the same product (talking about chat) and don't contribute to the formation of monopolies' 'you're way out of line' 'i just don't trust them and i use a different service' 'ah? tell me more.'
  - thw0rted 6y ago
    The point is that you can tell everybody why you don't like WA, and even come up with a really good way of explaining the problems to non-technical people. This might even work in some cases. The problem is that WA has an enormous head-start in Europe. So maybe you talk around your gym, but your kids' school can't justify switching. Guess what, you're still stuck picking between using WA and missing out on big chunks of your real life.
heresie-dabord 6y ago
If you think privacy is important, you have to do something about it. It's a lesson in civics. To do nothing and say nothing while expecting someone else to fight the good fight is poor citizenship, but it is very good consumerism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
saos 6y ago
Wow I had a similar experience at university. I only joined Facebook because my course had a Facebook group where we all communicated. Now this same hook exists in WhatsApp. It’s pretty crazy
vzvz 6y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_as_a_public_utility https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_as_a_public_uti...

kar1181 6y ago

This is precisely the dilemma in a nutshell. You have a choice but it's a bit like voluntary solitary confinement. Especially during a lockdown.

igravious 6y ago
When I switched from Windows to Linux, sure there were some inconveniences but with enough technical knowledge and a bit of inconvenience I was able to get by. But social media? What do I switch to? > This is precisely the dilemma in a nutshell. Exactly my problem too (car mechanic, plumber, school parent committee, loads of my friends …) – I need my car fixed, I need my plumbing fixed, I need to communicate with other parents. I hate that I have no choice but to use a Facebook product when I am not even on Facebook!
toprea 6y ago
Just thinking out loud here, as I was considering something like this. I can also not give up the WhatsApp account due to the social pressure. What if I would use a second phone, a cheap one, used only for the whatsapp (and some other essential but privacy invasive apps). I would not have that second phone always with me, but it would provide me access to the social network I need without feeling tracked or providing more data than needed. I do understand that this doesn't fix exactly the issue presented here, but I already assumed that whatsapp data was already in Facebook's hands one way or another. But I would limit the amount of information that WhatsApp can track about me by having this application on a phone which does not really represent my full actions as i don't have it with me. Edit: Corrected some typos.
- SamuelAdams 6y ago
  Trouble is you are privileged enough to be able to afford two phones. For many families, even a $300 device is a significant expense. So if your approach was the only approach, only the rich would have privacy.
  - CincinnatiMan 6y ago
    Why the use of the word “privilege”? We don’t know what balance of OP’s wealth is earned vs unearned (privilege).
    - cmpb 6y ago
      It could also be that he had the "privilege" to earn it (as not everyone has that privilege).
      - skinkestek 6y ago
        Or it could be they just worked really hard or prioritised or what do I know. But I agree privilege is vastly overused.
      - SkyBelow 6y ago
        Seems a bit reductionist of the concept of privilege because everything becomes privilege as there is someone who has experienced worse with few options. For an extreme example, dying with cancer becomes a privilege compared to someone who loses their life immediately in an accident. Only one of those two has a chance to say goodbye as well as prepare their friends and family.
        brigandish 6y ago
        It’s not just reductionist, it’s a misuse of the word in a way that is becoming more fashionable. Buying phones does not come under the meaning of privilege, unless perhaps you’re in prison (I struggle to think of an example that might occur and isn’t patently absurd). The rest of us can walk into a shop, those things that are open to the public. Hopefully this misuse is just a fad and we can go back to a more sensible use.

studius 6y ago

In the U.S., my experience with Whatsapp was that I created an account and never used it once to communicate with anyone, then I deleted it. I've also withdrawn from social media. The exception for now is HN, because it's more of a forum, even when bad information sometimes instates itself as reality for a large conversation, like a big gathering of fans talking about their team that will inevitably fail to win or perhaps a bad STD. I learn what others are doing through direct and intentional communication, even if technology is used or if the information is second-hand. I don't text back or call back immediately, which my friends and family forgive, but it sometimes seems to hurt my relationships. I still worry of dependence on large companies, big data companies gathering more information about me than I know myself, and the potential of out-of-control AIs. However, I attribute these in-part to my own paranoid thinking that use my memories of large company layoffs, privacy concerns raised in the tech community, and mostly fiction. While I've come to the realization that the act to trying to be happy and successful is the very thing that makes me unhappy, and I just need to exist, maybe becoming better at whatever I'm naturally good at, while being here and now with those I'm with, giving my service to them... I still keep wasting time replying about things that don't matter.

teekert 6y ago
WA is not particularly good, it's just that I don't know anyone who doesn't use it (in the Netherlands), even when you want to contact helpdesks it is sometimes the preferred way. I mean, we have this in many streets: [0] Without kids I could see myself getting away with not using WA, but with kids you are really setting yourself up for a very hard time (and prepare to be judged by other (annoyed) parents and your kid will feel the consequences at some point, the kids will miss out on critical and fun information). WA has almost become what email used to be. Except that it's a controlled platform and we are locked into a single provider, a provider that once promised a focus on privacy and an app free of commercials, forever... [0] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=whatsapp+buurtpreventie&t=ffsb&iax=images&ia=images&iai=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.nieuws.nl%2Fmedia%2Fsites%2F305%2F2015%2F12%2F05153708%2Fattentie-whatsapp-buurtpreventie.jpg https://duckduckgo.com/?q=whatsapp+buurtpreventie&t=ffsb&iax...
- dtech 6y ago

edeion 6y ago

My experience is similar. I want to add that when I left WhatsApp (~2y ago) I deleted my account. WhatsApp kept accepting messages on my behalf. People didn't know I wasn't getting their messages. I'm surprised I don't see this mentioned to the point I wonder if I did something wrong at the time. In the end, I reopened a WhatsApp account recently because everyone is using WhatsApp in France and I couldn't stand breaking everyone's efforts to bring us together during lockdown.

nindalf 6y ago
> People didn't know I wasn't getting their messages. They saw 2 ticks, meaning delivered to your device? Or did they see one tick, meaning only delivered to the server? If it's the latter, that's a reasonable choice for the server to make. The server has acknowledged receipt of the message, and failed to send it to your device. If you wanted WhatsApp to advertise to your contacts that your account was inactive, you could have maybe sent them a message yourself?
- xuki 6y ago
  > The server has acknowledged receipt of the message, and failed to send it to your device. Doing this without explicitly telling the other party is a dark pattern.
  - heipei 6y ago
    I would wager that most people using WhatsApp know the difference between one tick (server receipt), two ticks (client receipt) and two blue ticks (client actually read it).
    - andybak 6y ago
      I didn't know that until just now.
      - cutemonster 6y ago

bigbizisverywyz 6y ago

the issue is that people would probably not want to pay for an app like WhatsApp, and so the 'free' alternative takes hold, and whoever controls that gets the cost of running the infrastructure in advertisement fees. If some company could set themselves up as a utility, and the mobile network operators were to pay that company to run the messaging app + infra, then it could be made to operate like a utility and nobodies data would have to be sold.

__lazybyte 6y ago
I could remember initially paying for a Whatsapp subscription a couple of years ago, I was happy to do so as I believed they were providing an essential service. I think that model could've worked.
- flemhans 6y ago
  And wasn't it just $1 for a year?
Cro_on 6y ago
This could work as a good argument to switch if executed well. 'your device owns you and is siphoning cash from you'

hkt 6y ago

I tried to run a branch of a charity without WhatsApp and Facebook for two years and it was impossible. I had to give in and sign up. So, these things should be regulated and operated like utilities. Phone companies don't have the right to mine my contact list, and neither should Facebook.

driverdan 6y ago

> I'm not going to go preach it to the volunteers who coach my kids' rugby team. Why not? I would.

speleding 6y ago
And tell them what? Please all go install a different app? That only works if you can get everybody on board, it's unacceptable if a parent gets left out because he isn't there that day or cannot get it to work. You would also have to explain to them that Facebook cannot read your messages, but they can see the meta data. And then you have to explain to them what meta data is. I think your kid is not going to appreciate your efforts.
- Cro_on 6y ago
  Wait for them to ask the why, tell them as succinctly as you can that fb is evil and there are alternatives.
  - whywhywhywhy 6y ago
    How do you tell them succinctly in a way they can understand that the company that makes two of their favorite apps IG and WhatsApp is evil?
    - Cro_on 6y ago
      'they deliberately fine tune their product to make it more addictive' 'yes, and?' 'other companies have the same product (talking about chat) and don't contribute to the formation of monopolies' 'you're way out of line' 'i just don't trust them and i use a different service' 'ah? tell me more.'
- thw0rted 6y ago
  The point is that you can tell everybody why you don't like WA, and even come up with a really good way of explaining the problems to non-technical people. This might even work in some cases. The problem is that WA has an enormous head-start in Europe. So maybe you talk around your gym, but your kids' school can't justify switching. Guess what, you're still stuck picking between using WA and missing out on big chunks of your real life.

heresie-dabord 6y ago

If you think privacy is important, you have to do something about it. It's a lesson in civics. To do nothing and say nothing while expecting someone else to fight the good fight is poor citizenship, but it is very good consumerism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

saos 6y ago

Wow I had a similar experience at university. I only joined Facebook because my course had a Facebook group where we all communicated. Now this same hook exists in WhatsApp. It’s pretty crazy

vzvz 6y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_as_a_public_utility https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_as_a_public_uti...