13 ms·

Cincinnati is home to the largest unused subway system in the world (2016)

203 points by respinal 6y ago

lmilcin 6y ago
A whole article about "pristine" stations "waiting" for trains and passengers and not a single photo of actual inside.
- sMarsIntruder 6y ago
  "Engineers who inspected the tunnels recently deemed them in “very good condition.”" I guess we need to trust that sentence. lol
comonoid 6y ago
Omsk (Russia) cancelled subway length is 4.7 miles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omsk_Metro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omsk_Metro This article claims Cincinnati subway is 2.2 miles.
- zymhan 6y ago
  This article predates the cancellation of the Omsk subway.
jgwil2 6y ago
> “It was a huge loss not to build it,” Koenig says, of the subway. “When you compare almost any city in Europe to a Midwestern car-centric city there is no comparison in the quality of life.” Ain't that the truth. It's very depressing to read about the history of transit in the States.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Meh, depends what your priorities are. While the opportunities for insane white collar income are much fewer cities in the Midwest are pretty great for quality of life.
  - Retric 6y ago
    Having commuted by car, rail, walking, and working from home, I personally think a quick walk to work is by far the best option. You generally give that up in car centric cities and it’s a huge loss.
    - danlugo92 6y ago
      20 minutes walk from office, never going back to 1~2 hour commutes.
      - mohaine 6y ago
        In the Midwest a 1-2 hour commute is normally 70 - 120 miles.
        tomjakubowski 6y ago
        You (and the other commenter) need to be a lot more specific than "The Midwest", a large and diverse part of this country. That figure isn't close to true in Chicagoland at least, unless you're commuting suburbs to the boonies (and even then, you'd need to be lucky and have a tollway route). A 30 mile commute into the city, with traffic, takes like 50-70 minutes, a large reason why Metra commuter rail is so popular.
        Touche 6y ago
        Chicago isn't a car centric city, probably the only in the Midwest.
        Retric 6y ago
        That really depends on where you’re drawing the borders of Chicago. The Chicago metropolitan area is car centric, but looking at Chicago as a city unto it’s self and things look very different.
        deleted 6y ago
- zten 6y ago
  I think people are usually pretty happy with living in those areas. They like being able to drive and park at things easily. It’s just the kids who are less thrilled with needing the mom and dad taxi.
  - tolbish 6y ago
    I wonder if this has been studied by researchers. Is this a genuine preference or rather something akin to Stockholm syndrome? Something tells me the average American who moves to a mass-transit friendly city is happier than someone from a mass-transit city that moves to a car-centric city.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - throwaway201103 6y ago
      I think it's subjective, and maybe related to what you grew up with. I moved to Chicago in the 1990s, lived there for about 10 years. The mass-transit was very good, but I wasn't happy living there. Move to a smaller town with basically no useful public transit, but am vastly happier.
      - technothrasher 6y ago
        I'm a definite small town country person. I think even my town of 5300 people is getting too big for me these days, and I couldn't imagine being happy living in the city or even a bigger suburb. But if I had to live in a city, good public transit would be a must. I spent a week in Paris a few years ago getting around everywhere on the subway and enjoyed it immensely. On a later trip I spent one day driving in Paris and was ready to shoot myself.
        mypalmike 6y ago
        Even the buses in Paris are pretty great. About halfway through my last visit, I switched almost entirely from subway to buses. They aren't necessarily the fastest way to get across town, but I found them clean and convenient, and just a great way to take everything in.
- jberryman 6y ago
  My city had one of the first electric streetcar systems in the world. In 1949 they were sort of ceremoniously burned: https://rvamag.com/politics/local-politics/artists-map-of-richmonds-streetcar-system-reminds-us-what-might-have-been.html https://rvamag.com/politics/local-politics/artists-map-of-ri... Oh, also imagine a neighborhood known variously as "The Harlem of the South" and "Black Wall Street", and try to guess where they decided to carve out the new freeway a few years before that?
  - technofiend 6y ago
    Hah. Sounds familiar. My neighborhood was originally created to give successful Italian and Jewish folks a place to live since the toniest neighborhood named River Oaks had explicit bylaws that prevented sales to those races. This was the 1930s well before the Civil Rights Act. Then one very successful black cattleman had his white secretary buy him a house and sell it to him. Within a few years white flight emptied the area (to the point there's a documentary about it) and suddenly TXDOT decided it was a great place for a freeway.
  - WorldMaker 6y ago
    Relatedly, another fun fact is that Cincinnati also had a street car system that was a regional envy and compared favorably to San Francisco's. One hill climb especially was remarked upon at the time as being as scenic if not more so than the scenic cable car lines that have become preserved and enshrined as such tourist destinations in San Francisco. (Some of the historic cars that have been restored and put back into use by San Francisco even originated on that Cincinnati line.) Possibly more so than just about any other city in the midwest (though they all made mistakes), Cincinnati has possibly the craziest history of paved over and unfinished projects.
- bandana 6y ago
  I find taking the subway in Paris or NYC a terrible experience. The smell, the crowds, the stress... after a ride I need to take a shower. As an alternative, I prefer the South East Asia "motorbike centric" cities, if only they could switch to eletric it would be perfect.
  - paxys 6y ago
    If you actually live and commute in these motorbike centric cities rather than visit as a tourist, you will change your tune very quick. They are orders of magnitude more dangerous, streets are narrow, traffic is chaotic and rules are non-existent, summers are hell (and good luck finding a workplace with a shower), you have to dodge aggressive cars/pedestrians/animals on a daily basis. I'd take a London/Paris/NYC style subway system over it in a heartbeat.
    - Reason077 6y ago
      Cycling and good metro/subway systems aren't mutually exclusive, of course. Cities with good public transit are often good cycling cities, too, due to being able to maintain a good level of density without excessive levels of car traffic, modest traffic speeds, etc. (As for motorbikes in cities, I'm not a fan due all the noise and pollution. But electric bikes are great!)
    - bandana 6y ago
      I have been living in Saigon for the past 10 months. I'd say on the contrary, the first few days (what a tourist would experience) are the most stressful, but after a while you get used to it and it's alright.
      - jeromegv 6y ago
        Saigon and the great experience of crossing the street... among the highest rate in the world of car accidents. Come on, let's be serious, this is better than the Paris subway? Under what metric?
        6y ago
- trianglem 6y ago
  Speak for yourself. I hate public transportation and sharing commodities. I’d much rather have my own car and large private spaces.
  - wesleywt 6y ago
    I believe this is hell. Hours of your life wasted in traffic because the rest of the population believes the same. I ran out of battery power on camera in Barcelona. I got off the tour bus and was at my hotel room within 10 minutes to plug it in. Then back on the tour of the city really quickly due to the awesome transport systems. My city, Cape Town, where public transport is really bad it would have taken me an hour or more depending on the traffic. If you want large private spaces and drive your own car, move to a rural town.
  - Uberphallus 6y ago
    That sounds violently American. Anyway, according to that statement either you hate dense cities or you just love wasting your time in them. Maybe try a top public transit network, like Vienna (overall), Moscow or Madrid (subway), Tokyo (train) or even Paris (when there's no strike) to see things done right, because in the US cities with barely functional public transit can be counted with a single hand.
    - nec4b 6y ago
      >>That sounds violently American. It really doesn't. There are people all over the world who feel the same as the person you're replying to. The feeling has nothing to do whether the city has a "top public transit network" as you put it or a third world always broke transit network.
      - Uberphallus 6y ago
        Sure, everyone can have any opinion anywhere. Still it's mostly an opinion shaped by the environment and mostly prevalent in the US, and to lesser extent, other sparsely populated countries with significant sprawl. The fact that the sprawl makes it ineffective and expensive to lay an effective public transit is what makes it seem undesirable. The fact that it's ineffective makes it relegated to what poor people use, deepening the issue. And this goes as just personal experience, but my US friends in the EU insist on driving through city traffic and spending 3-4 as much time in commuting, and it takes a while until they give up. Some of them aren't even used to do groceries by foot, for a large chunk of the US population that involves driving to a Walmart.
EvanAnderson 6y ago
Sadly, tours are no longer available. There are some videos out there from "urban explorers" heading down into the tunnels. I got to tour the unfinished platform and part of the tunnel under Central Parkway back in the late 2000's. The water main running thru one of the tunnels is eerily imposing. There's a fair amount of fiber down there, too.
- ethbr0 6y ago
  Youtube delivers. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nY6A0_uxyvs&t=4m32s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nY6A0_uxyvs&t=4m32s
  - terinjokes 6y ago
    Before clicking the link: "I bet this is The Proper People." It's been a while since I watched this video, but IIRC, it's the one that seemed the most like they got an insider to help them.
    - ethbr0 6y ago
      It's amazing how many gates and locks are unlocked or broken when urban explorers come across them...
xyzzy4 6y ago
I wonder if they could turn it into an underground bike/walking trail, like a lot of places do with old rail right-of-ways.
adingus 6y ago
Not one picture of the subway tunnels or platforms... disappointing.
- e12e 6y ago
  A search turns up plenty, and this other article from 2015 feature a few pictures: https://www.wcpo.com/longform/cincinnatis-abandoned-subway-what-would-it-have-meant-for-us https://www.wcpo.com/longform/cincinnatis-abandoned-subway-w...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
evilpie 6y ago
Youtube video of urban explorers in the subway tunnels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY6A0_uxyvs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY6A0_uxyvs
- ipnon 6y ago
  The title of this post does not do justice to the scale of this unused subway system. It takes the explorers hours to walk to one end.
  - zamadatix 6y ago
    It's 2 miles...
    - drdeadringer 6y ago
      How fast do you walk when you are: 1) exploring 2) a new place 2a) which also happens to be dark 2b) with potential safety hazards 3) whilst your buddy is filming the potentially interesting things you point at
      - WorldMaker 6y ago
        As someone who somewhat regularly walks two miles, and has personal metrics on such, I know it would still take me most of an hour even at my fastest pace to walk two miles. Cars give a weird sense of geography and people both drastically under- ("It takes only five minutes to drive, it must be 'close'") and over-estimate ("I always drive between these places, they must be too far apart to walk") walking time of even just a couple miles.
arulpugazh 6y ago
2.2 miles is not really 'largest' isn't it
- EamonnMR 6y ago
  Perhaps the largest that happens to not be used.
- chrismcb 6y ago
  Is there a larger unused subway system?
  - usr1106 6y ago
    I guess Charleroi (Belgium) might have a longer one. https://www.urbex.nl/metro-leger-charleroi-ligne-chatalet/ https://www.urbex.nl/metro-leger-charleroi-ligne-chatalet/ However, it's only 1 line that's unused, some other lines are in use.
spieswl 6y ago
Cool to see a weird piece of history from the hometown on HN. Many of those tunnels were used to run utilities and fiber so they still have usefulness, but it is sad to think about "what could have been" if many American cities had gone further with these kinds of projects.
- fuball63 6y ago
  Also got excited to see Cincinnati on the front page. I love it here, but the public transit is lacking. People from out of town are also often surprised when I tell them that it's very hilly here, and it makes cycling tough. Good for exercise, hard for commuting.
  - nfriedly 6y ago
    When I went to UC, I had an appartment down the big hill from the main campus on MLK drive. I tried to schedule classes for the morning so that I could bike in (or give up and walk the bike) while the weather was still cool, and then ride/coast all the way home later on when it was warmer. I miss Cincinnati sometimes...
    - spieswl 6y ago
      Especially the goetta [0]... [0] https://www.seriouseats.com/2013/10/goetta-the-cincinnati-german-american-breakfast-staple.html https://www.seriouseats.com/2013/10/goetta-the-cincinnati-ge...
  - lumberingjack 6y ago
    I see you think public transit is lacking what do you think about the new rail system?
    - fuball63 6y ago
      I'm assuming you mean the streetcar, and I'm a proponent of it. People get hung up on the fact that the loop is so small right now, so they claim it as useless. I understand that sentiment, but it is nice for spending an entire day in the city and getting from the stadiums to OTR. More importantly, to me I see it as a great first step to incremental improvement. If it can be expanded to Clifton (where UC is), or over the bridge to Covington, it would be an absolute game changer.
Tokkemon 6y ago
I'm sorry, but the Cincinnati metro authority is called SORTA?! (Southwest Ohio Regional Transit Authority) Talk about wearing your heart on your sleeve!
- mberning 6y ago
  Yep. And NKY’s is called TANK.
- stickfigure 6y ago
  San Luis Obispo (California) has SLO Transit.
- souprock 6y ago
  Florida has both Sarasota County Area Transit and Space Coast Area Transport. Both are SCAT. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scat https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scat https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/scat https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/scat
brianjunyinchan 6y ago
Would it be possible to repurpose it for future infrastructure? Ie a delivery drone highway?
- vmarsy 6y ago
  In Seattle, underground tunnels were shared by trains and buses until March 2019[1], here's an video showing it in action, a bit older, (possibly before there were any trains?): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=etT_wVuKy_I https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=etT_wVuKy_I Why not use buses in those tunnels as well? Maybe there is no traffic jams above ground? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Seattle_Transit_Tunnel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Seattle_Transit_Tun...
  - donavanm 6y ago
    The seattle shared use was always temporary iirc. The buses were a reliability problem for the trains, impacting on time performance. But what led to the exclusive use was going to shorter inter train timing where there’s simply not enough time to wait for buses to clear the train platforms between arrivals.
    - vmarsy 6y ago
      Right, but like every project, "temporary" can go a long way :) from wikipedia: > The DSTT was used only by buses from its opening in 1990 until 2005, and shared by buses and light rail from 2009 until 2019 That's 15 years with bus only, then 10 years of shared bus/train.
mberning 6y ago
It’s a bold assumption that, had it been finished, the subway would have been successful. This is the city that cannot run a simple street car successfully and has had multiple city council members charged with corruption in the last year. The main bridge connecting Cincinnati and NKY has been in need of replacement for a long time, and yet the can continues to be kicked down the road. We do not have a strong track record of building and maintaining infrastructure.
- webel0 6y ago
  I think you’re mixing up a few different items. The streetcar is, indeed, a disaster. I think that is largely because they built it essentially as an amusement park ride for the weekends rather than a serious commute option. A subway that had the ability to actually move people across town (like the planned 16 mile loop) would have been great. The subway suffered not so much from local incompetence as inflation. The Brent-Spence bridge does need repair but that’s not a city issue. It’s a mix of state and federal. It doesn’t help that Ohio thinks that Kentucky should pay for it and vice versa.
spodek 6y ago
> most of what stalled the progress of the subway happened above ground, in offices, where politicians made backroom deals and bold promises that rarely came to fruition . . . By the time the 1920s were in full swing, cost overruns, construction errors, property damage, and political finagling had shut down the Cincinnati subway for good. American exceptionalism! > in 2002 a proposal was put before voters for a half-cent tax increase that would fund a regional light rail system, which have used parts of the already-constructed tunnel system. Voters defeated the issue Sigh. We never learn.
kube-system 6y ago
> Several midwestern cities, including Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and Detroit, passed bond issues so that construction could begin on subway systems that emulated the successful New York City one, which began running trains underground in 1904. > “Cincinnati was unique in that they were the only [Midwestern] city to actually begin working on the subway,” Not true. Pittsburgh not only started construction on theirs, but it went into service and still operates today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Light_Rail#/media/File:Steel_Plaza_Subway_Station.JPG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Light_Rail#/media/F...
- leetrout 6y ago
  I wouldn’t consider PA / Pittsburgh Midwestern anyway.
- 40four 6y ago
  Good point, but most of it is light rail above ground, with only a small portion underground downtown. I’ve ridden on it, they are nice trains. And a nice option for suburb commuters. Rush hour gets pretty crazy there also, with everyone trying to get in and out of Fort Pitt tunnel. This is something Cincinnati has painfully missed out on. I liked the read, never knew about this.
- 535188B17C93743 6y ago
  Cleveland's RTA is also underrated. Definitely could use some work, but for a city of Cleveland's size, pretty good.
  - mbg721 6y ago
    Are those Red Line stations between the airport and downtown as abandoned as they look to the casual visitor? I got a weird rust-belt vibe of "thousands of factory workers used to get off at this station".
    - 535188B17C93743 6y ago
      Yeah, they're pretty empty sadly.
fnord77 6y ago
stories like this make me want to leave the US and move to Europe.
sgustard 6y ago
This Verge article and photos are terrific as well. https://www.theverge.com/2016/8/10/12411632/public-transportation-failures-america-cincinnati-subway https://www.theverge.com/2016/8/10/12411632/public-transport...
throwawgler87 6y ago
More photos please!
mbreese 6y ago
While the subway would have been a nice addition to Cincinnati, it shouldn’t be forgotten that at the time, Cincinnati already had a working (and popular) above-ground streetcar. Some of these lines were originally cable car! So, it isn’t that the city completely neglected public transportation, but just didn’t complete the subway portion (in 1925). Sadly, the streetcar was eventually dismantled (1952), so you can still lament the lack of public transportation. I live near one of the old streetcar stops, and it would be great to still have that kind of access to downtown. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Street_Railway https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Street_Railway https://www.wcpo.com/longform/a-city-built-by-streetcars-a-look-back-at-cincinnatis-street-railroads https://www.wcpo.com/longform/a-city-built-by-streetcars-a-l...
- lumberingjack 6y ago
  You guys got a street car it cost a ton of money and it's still cost a ton of money
Lammy 6y ago
It's interesting to see them aspire to "subway systems that emulated the successful New York City one, which began running trains underground in 1904" considering all the transit opposition you see these days using "Manhattanization" as a scare word. Sad to think of the probable cause for that negative change in the way transit is perceived by many voters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migration_(African_American)#First_Great_Migration_(1910-1940) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migration_(African_Ameri...
AaronNewcomer 6y ago
Similar story in Cleveland too: https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2014/10/20/13-photos-of-clevelands-deserted-detroit-superior-underground-subway https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2014/10/...
rmason 6y ago
Actually Detroit did start building its own subway in 1929, right before the great depression. There is no record of it on the Internet. No one in current city government knows a thing about it. My father remembers it being built, he would have been 13. A short stretch of tunnel and the beginnings of what would have been two stations. When I was in college in the seventies some urban explorers found an entrance. But the city managed to get it closed. The only story on it was an alt weekly, long since gone. One of these days I am going to spend some time in the Detroit library system and dig up proof and publish it on the web.
- andrew_ 6y ago
  The trolly network was extensive, however. The reason(s) for their demise are googlable.
  - rmason 6y ago
    Oh I know all about the trolley network. My dad took me on the trolley on its last day. I was too young to have any memory of it but I've got the picture ;<). For sixty years my father insisted that the auto company's were behind its demise. Shortly before he passed away it all came out that he had been correct all along. Although some Detroit media still dispute the proof.
- cabalos 6y ago
  A few years back, I stumbled on the master transit plan for the Metro Detroit region prior to the freeway system being built. The original plan called for rail running in the median of the freeways, similar to how spots are in Chicago. The plan included artist concepts, layouts, etc. Not sure if its true or not, but I had read reports the auto industry fought the rail component of the project to its death. It was a really fascinating document. It's somewhere on the internet; I wish I could find the link.
lumberingjack 6y ago
This is my hometown and I've been inside this system as early as 1999 and as late as 2008. Not much to look at inside there wet damp small tunnels every exit except the two or three concrete over. Huge water main down the center and huge fiber optic cables.
datavirtue 6y ago
We use it for stuff.
wolco2 6y ago
In this day and age of covid are subways and mass transit really that safe / healthy?
- astrange 6y ago
  They are perfectly safe if you open the windows or have an AC. Tokyo, Seoul, all of China, all doing great. The Midwest, doing terribly, because they meet up at church or at the grocery store and don't open the windows.
WorldMaker 6y ago
Another fun fact: revisiting subway proposals and possibly using the existing tunnels was a part of Cincinnati's sometimes derided failed 2012 Summer Olympics bid. (ETA: Mocking that Olympics bid was where I first learned of the unfinished subway system.)
lacker 6y ago
I grew up in Cincinnati, and this story seems strange to me, because getting around Cincinnati seems pretty easy, actually. It isn't just my opinion - statistics generally say that commute times in Cincinnati are lower than average for the US. https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/10/23/see-how-cincinnati-commute-times-compare-to-other.html https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/10/23/see-h... And they are way better than European cities like London for example - https://www.google.com/search?q=average+london+commute+times https://www.google.com/search?q=average+london+commute+times Cities like San Francisco and Washington DC are worse for getting around, despite having better public transportation. It's faster to drive 20 miles in Cincinnati than to travel four miles from the Haight to SOMA in San Francisco. Sure, there is sometimes traffic in Cincinnati, but there just isn't as much as the more densely populated cities. I think so much of the population lives further out near I-275, it doesn't make as much sense to build public transportation there.

203 points by respinal 6y ago

lmilcin 6y ago

A whole article about "pristine" stations "waiting" for trains and passengers and not a single photo of actual inside.

sMarsIntruder 6y ago
"Engineers who inspected the tunnels recently deemed them in “very good condition.”" I guess we need to trust that sentence. lol

comonoid 6y ago

Omsk (Russia) cancelled subway length is 4.7 miles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omsk_Metro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omsk_Metro This article claims Cincinnati subway is 2.2 miles.

zymhan 6y ago
This article predates the cancellation of the Omsk subway.

jgwil2 6y ago

> “It was a huge loss not to build it,” Koenig says, of the subway. “When you compare almost any city in Europe to a Midwestern car-centric city there is no comparison in the quality of life.” Ain't that the truth. It's very depressing to read about the history of transit in the States.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
Meh, depends what your priorities are. While the opportunities for insane white collar income are much fewer cities in the Midwest are pretty great for quality of life.
- Retric 6y ago
  Having commuted by car, rail, walking, and working from home, I personally think a quick walk to work is by far the best option. You generally give that up in car centric cities and it’s a huge loss.
  - danlugo92 6y ago
    20 minutes walk from office, never going back to 1~2 hour commutes.
    - mohaine 6y ago
      In the Midwest a 1-2 hour commute is normally 70 - 120 miles.
      - tomjakubowski 6y ago
        You (and the other commenter) need to be a lot more specific than "The Midwest", a large and diverse part of this country. That figure isn't close to true in Chicagoland at least, unless you're commuting suburbs to the boonies (and even then, you'd need to be lucky and have a tollway route). A 30 mile commute into the city, with traffic, takes like 50-70 minutes, a large reason why Metra commuter rail is so popular.
        Touche 6y ago
        Chicago isn't a car centric city, probably the only in the Midwest.
        Retric 6y ago
        That really depends on where you’re drawing the borders of Chicago. The Chicago metropolitan area is car centric, but looking at Chicago as a city unto it’s self and things look very different.
        deleted 6y ago
zten 6y ago
I think people are usually pretty happy with living in those areas. They like being able to drive and park at things easily. It’s just the kids who are less thrilled with needing the mom and dad taxi.
- tolbish 6y ago
  I wonder if this has been studied by researchers. Is this a genuine preference or rather something akin to Stockholm syndrome? Something tells me the average American who moves to a mass-transit friendly city is happier than someone from a mass-transit city that moves to a car-centric city.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway201103 6y ago
    I think it's subjective, and maybe related to what you grew up with. I moved to Chicago in the 1990s, lived there for about 10 years. The mass-transit was very good, but I wasn't happy living there. Move to a smaller town with basically no useful public transit, but am vastly happier.
    - technothrasher 6y ago
      I'm a definite small town country person. I think even my town of 5300 people is getting too big for me these days, and I couldn't imagine being happy living in the city or even a bigger suburb. But if I had to live in a city, good public transit would be a must. I spent a week in Paris a few years ago getting around everywhere on the subway and enjoyed it immensely. On a later trip I spent one day driving in Paris and was ready to shoot myself.
      - mypalmike 6y ago
        Even the buses in Paris are pretty great. About halfway through my last visit, I switched almost entirely from subway to buses. They aren't necessarily the fastest way to get across town, but I found them clean and convenient, and just a great way to take everything in.
jberryman 6y ago
My city had one of the first electric streetcar systems in the world. In 1949 they were sort of ceremoniously burned: https://rvamag.com/politics/local-politics/artists-map-of-richmonds-streetcar-system-reminds-us-what-might-have-been.html https://rvamag.com/politics/local-politics/artists-map-of-ri... Oh, also imagine a neighborhood known variously as "The Harlem of the South" and "Black Wall Street", and try to guess where they decided to carve out the new freeway a few years before that?
- technofiend 6y ago
  Hah. Sounds familiar. My neighborhood was originally created to give successful Italian and Jewish folks a place to live since the toniest neighborhood named River Oaks had explicit bylaws that prevented sales to those races. This was the 1930s well before the Civil Rights Act. Then one very successful black cattleman had his white secretary buy him a house and sell it to him. Within a few years white flight emptied the area (to the point there's a documentary about it) and suddenly TXDOT decided it was a great place for a freeway.
- WorldMaker 6y ago
  Relatedly, another fun fact is that Cincinnati also had a street car system that was a regional envy and compared favorably to San Francisco's. One hill climb especially was remarked upon at the time as being as scenic if not more so than the scenic cable car lines that have become preserved and enshrined as such tourist destinations in San Francisco. (Some of the historic cars that have been restored and put back into use by San Francisco even originated on that Cincinnati line.) Possibly more so than just about any other city in the midwest (though they all made mistakes), Cincinnati has possibly the craziest history of paved over and unfinished projects.
bandana 6y ago
I find taking the subway in Paris or NYC a terrible experience. The smell, the crowds, the stress... after a ride I need to take a shower. As an alternative, I prefer the South East Asia "motorbike centric" cities, if only they could switch to eletric it would be perfect.
- paxys 6y ago
  If you actually live and commute in these motorbike centric cities rather than visit as a tourist, you will change your tune very quick. They are orders of magnitude more dangerous, streets are narrow, traffic is chaotic and rules are non-existent, summers are hell (and good luck finding a workplace with a shower), you have to dodge aggressive cars/pedestrians/animals on a daily basis. I'd take a London/Paris/NYC style subway system over it in a heartbeat.
  - Reason077 6y ago
    Cycling and good metro/subway systems aren't mutually exclusive, of course. Cities with good public transit are often good cycling cities, too, due to being able to maintain a good level of density without excessive levels of car traffic, modest traffic speeds, etc. (As for motorbikes in cities, I'm not a fan due all the noise and pollution. But electric bikes are great!)
  - bandana 6y ago
    I have been living in Saigon for the past 10 months. I'd say on the contrary, the first few days (what a tourist would experience) are the most stressful, but after a while you get used to it and it's alright.
    - jeromegv 6y ago
      Saigon and the great experience of crossing the street... among the highest rate in the world of car accidents. Come on, let's be serious, this is better than the Paris subway? Under what metric?
      - 6y ago
trianglem 6y ago
Speak for yourself. I hate public transportation and sharing commodities. I’d much rather have my own car and large private spaces.
- wesleywt 6y ago
  I believe this is hell. Hours of your life wasted in traffic because the rest of the population believes the same. I ran out of battery power on camera in Barcelona. I got off the tour bus and was at my hotel room within 10 minutes to plug it in. Then back on the tour of the city really quickly due to the awesome transport systems. My city, Cape Town, where public transport is really bad it would have taken me an hour or more depending on the traffic. If you want large private spaces and drive your own car, move to a rural town.
- Uberphallus 6y ago
  That sounds violently American. Anyway, according to that statement either you hate dense cities or you just love wasting your time in them. Maybe try a top public transit network, like Vienna (overall), Moscow or Madrid (subway), Tokyo (train) or even Paris (when there's no strike) to see things done right, because in the US cities with barely functional public transit can be counted with a single hand.
  - nec4b 6y ago
    >>That sounds violently American. It really doesn't. There are people all over the world who feel the same as the person you're replying to. The feeling has nothing to do whether the city has a "top public transit network" as you put it or a third world always broke transit network.
    - Uberphallus 6y ago
      Sure, everyone can have any opinion anywhere. Still it's mostly an opinion shaped by the environment and mostly prevalent in the US, and to lesser extent, other sparsely populated countries with significant sprawl. The fact that the sprawl makes it ineffective and expensive to lay an effective public transit is what makes it seem undesirable. The fact that it's ineffective makes it relegated to what poor people use, deepening the issue. And this goes as just personal experience, but my US friends in the EU insist on driving through city traffic and spending 3-4 as much time in commuting, and it takes a while until they give up. Some of them aren't even used to do groceries by foot, for a large chunk of the US population that involves driving to a Walmart.

EvanAnderson 6y ago

Sadly, tours are no longer available. There are some videos out there from "urban explorers" heading down into the tunnels. I got to tour the unfinished platform and part of the tunnel under Central Parkway back in the late 2000's. The water main running thru one of the tunnels is eerily imposing. There's a fair amount of fiber down there, too.

ethbr0 6y ago
Youtube delivers. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nY6A0_uxyvs&t=4m32s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nY6A0_uxyvs&t=4m32s
- terinjokes 6y ago
  Before clicking the link: "I bet this is The Proper People." It's been a while since I watched this video, but IIRC, it's the one that seemed the most like they got an insider to help them.
  - ethbr0 6y ago
    It's amazing how many gates and locks are unlocked or broken when urban explorers come across them...

xyzzy4 6y ago

I wonder if they could turn it into an underground bike/walking trail, like a lot of places do with old rail right-of-ways.

adingus 6y ago

Not one picture of the subway tunnels or platforms... disappointing.

e12e 6y ago
A search turns up plenty, and this other article from 2015 feature a few pictures: https://www.wcpo.com/longform/cincinnatis-abandoned-subway-what-would-it-have-meant-for-us https://www.wcpo.com/longform/cincinnatis-abandoned-subway-w...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

evilpie 6y ago

Youtube video of urban explorers in the subway tunnels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY6A0_uxyvs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY6A0_uxyvs

ipnon 6y ago
The title of this post does not do justice to the scale of this unused subway system. It takes the explorers hours to walk to one end.
- zamadatix 6y ago
  It's 2 miles...
  - drdeadringer 6y ago
    How fast do you walk when you are: 1) exploring 2) a new place 2a) which also happens to be dark 2b) with potential safety hazards 3) whilst your buddy is filming the potentially interesting things you point at
    - WorldMaker 6y ago
      As someone who somewhat regularly walks two miles, and has personal metrics on such, I know it would still take me most of an hour even at my fastest pace to walk two miles. Cars give a weird sense of geography and people both drastically under- ("It takes only five minutes to drive, it must be 'close'") and over-estimate ("I always drive between these places, they must be too far apart to walk") walking time of even just a couple miles.

arulpugazh 6y ago

2.2 miles is not really 'largest' isn't it

EamonnMR 6y ago
Perhaps the largest that happens to not be used.
chrismcb 6y ago
Is there a larger unused subway system?
- usr1106 6y ago
  I guess Charleroi (Belgium) might have a longer one. https://www.urbex.nl/metro-leger-charleroi-ligne-chatalet/ https://www.urbex.nl/metro-leger-charleroi-ligne-chatalet/ However, it's only 1 line that's unused, some other lines are in use.

spieswl 6y ago

Cool to see a weird piece of history from the hometown on HN. Many of those tunnels were used to run utilities and fiber so they still have usefulness, but it is sad to think about "what could have been" if many American cities had gone further with these kinds of projects.

fuball63 6y ago
Also got excited to see Cincinnati on the front page. I love it here, but the public transit is lacking. People from out of town are also often surprised when I tell them that it's very hilly here, and it makes cycling tough. Good for exercise, hard for commuting.
- nfriedly 6y ago
  When I went to UC, I had an appartment down the big hill from the main campus on MLK drive. I tried to schedule classes for the morning so that I could bike in (or give up and walk the bike) while the weather was still cool, and then ride/coast all the way home later on when it was warmer. I miss Cincinnati sometimes...
  - spieswl 6y ago
    Especially the goetta [0]... [0] https://www.seriouseats.com/2013/10/goetta-the-cincinnati-german-american-breakfast-staple.html https://www.seriouseats.com/2013/10/goetta-the-cincinnati-ge...
- lumberingjack 6y ago
  I see you think public transit is lacking what do you think about the new rail system?
  - fuball63 6y ago
    I'm assuming you mean the streetcar, and I'm a proponent of it. People get hung up on the fact that the loop is so small right now, so they claim it as useless. I understand that sentiment, but it is nice for spending an entire day in the city and getting from the stadiums to OTR. More importantly, to me I see it as a great first step to incremental improvement. If it can be expanded to Clifton (where UC is), or over the bridge to Covington, it would be an absolute game changer.

Tokkemon 6y ago

I'm sorry, but the Cincinnati metro authority is called SORTA?! (Southwest Ohio Regional Transit Authority) Talk about wearing your heart on your sleeve!

mberning 6y ago
Yep. And NKY’s is called TANK.
stickfigure 6y ago
San Luis Obispo (California) has SLO Transit.
souprock 6y ago
Florida has both Sarasota County Area Transit and Space Coast Area Transport. Both are SCAT. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scat https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scat https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/scat https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/scat

brianjunyinchan 6y ago

Would it be possible to repurpose it for future infrastructure? Ie a delivery drone highway?

vmarsy 6y ago
In Seattle, underground tunnels were shared by trains and buses until March 2019[1], here's an video showing it in action, a bit older, (possibly before there were any trains?): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=etT_wVuKy_I https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=etT_wVuKy_I Why not use buses in those tunnels as well? Maybe there is no traffic jams above ground? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Seattle_Transit_Tunnel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Seattle_Transit_Tun...
- donavanm 6y ago
  The seattle shared use was always temporary iirc. The buses were a reliability problem for the trains, impacting on time performance. But what led to the exclusive use was going to shorter inter train timing where there’s simply not enough time to wait for buses to clear the train platforms between arrivals.
  - vmarsy 6y ago
    Right, but like every project, "temporary" can go a long way :) from wikipedia: > The DSTT was used only by buses from its opening in 1990 until 2005, and shared by buses and light rail from 2009 until 2019 That's 15 years with bus only, then 10 years of shared bus/train.

mberning 6y ago

It’s a bold assumption that, had it been finished, the subway would have been successful. This is the city that cannot run a simple street car successfully and has had multiple city council members charged with corruption in the last year. The main bridge connecting Cincinnati and NKY has been in need of replacement for a long time, and yet the can continues to be kicked down the road. We do not have a strong track record of building and maintaining infrastructure.

webel0 6y ago
I think you’re mixing up a few different items. The streetcar is, indeed, a disaster. I think that is largely because they built it essentially as an amusement park ride for the weekends rather than a serious commute option. A subway that had the ability to actually move people across town (like the planned 16 mile loop) would have been great. The subway suffered not so much from local incompetence as inflation. The Brent-Spence bridge does need repair but that’s not a city issue. It’s a mix of state and federal. It doesn’t help that Ohio thinks that Kentucky should pay for it and vice versa.

spodek 6y ago

> most of what stalled the progress of the subway happened above ground, in offices, where politicians made backroom deals and bold promises that rarely came to fruition . . . By the time the 1920s were in full swing, cost overruns, construction errors, property damage, and political finagling had shut down the Cincinnati subway for good. American exceptionalism! > in 2002 a proposal was put before voters for a half-cent tax increase that would fund a regional light rail system, which have used parts of the already-constructed tunnel system. Voters defeated the issue Sigh. We never learn.

kube-system 6y ago

> Several midwestern cities, including Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and Detroit, passed bond issues so that construction could begin on subway systems that emulated the successful New York City one, which began running trains underground in 1904. > “Cincinnati was unique in that they were the only [Midwestern] city to actually begin working on the subway,” Not true. Pittsburgh not only started construction on theirs, but it went into service and still operates today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Light_Rail#/media/File:Steel_Plaza_Subway_Station.JPG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Light_Rail#/media/F...

leetrout 6y ago
I wouldn’t consider PA / Pittsburgh Midwestern anyway.
40four 6y ago
Good point, but most of it is light rail above ground, with only a small portion underground downtown. I’ve ridden on it, they are nice trains. And a nice option for suburb commuters. Rush hour gets pretty crazy there also, with everyone trying to get in and out of Fort Pitt tunnel. This is something Cincinnati has painfully missed out on. I liked the read, never knew about this.
535188B17C93743 6y ago
Cleveland's RTA is also underrated. Definitely could use some work, but for a city of Cleveland's size, pretty good.
- mbg721 6y ago
  Are those Red Line stations between the airport and downtown as abandoned as they look to the casual visitor? I got a weird rust-belt vibe of "thousands of factory workers used to get off at this station".
  - 535188B17C93743 6y ago
    Yeah, they're pretty empty sadly.

fnord77 6y ago

stories like this make me want to leave the US and move to Europe.

sgustard 6y ago

This Verge article and photos are terrific as well. https://www.theverge.com/2016/8/10/12411632/public-transportation-failures-america-cincinnati-subway https://www.theverge.com/2016/8/10/12411632/public-transport...

throwawgler87 6y ago

More photos please!

mbreese 6y ago

While the subway would have been a nice addition to Cincinnati, it shouldn’t be forgotten that at the time, Cincinnati already had a working (and popular) above-ground streetcar. Some of these lines were originally cable car! So, it isn’t that the city completely neglected public transportation, but just didn’t complete the subway portion (in 1925). Sadly, the streetcar was eventually dismantled (1952), so you can still lament the lack of public transportation. I live near one of the old streetcar stops, and it would be great to still have that kind of access to downtown. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Street_Railway https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Street_Railway https://www.wcpo.com/longform/a-city-built-by-streetcars-a-look-back-at-cincinnatis-street-railroads https://www.wcpo.com/longform/a-city-built-by-streetcars-a-l...

lumberingjack 6y ago
You guys got a street car it cost a ton of money and it's still cost a ton of money

Lammy 6y ago

It's interesting to see them aspire to "subway systems that emulated the successful New York City one, which began running trains underground in 1904" considering all the transit opposition you see these days using "Manhattanization" as a scare word. Sad to think of the probable cause for that negative change in the way transit is perceived by many voters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migration_(African_American)#First_Great_Migration_(1910-1940) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migration_(African_Ameri...

AaronNewcomer 6y ago

Similar story in Cleveland too: https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2014/10/20/13-photos-of-clevelands-deserted-detroit-superior-underground-subway https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2014/10/...

rmason 6y ago

Actually Detroit did start building its own subway in 1929, right before the great depression. There is no record of it on the Internet. No one in current city government knows a thing about it. My father remembers it being built, he would have been 13. A short stretch of tunnel and the beginnings of what would have been two stations. When I was in college in the seventies some urban explorers found an entrance. But the city managed to get it closed. The only story on it was an alt weekly, long since gone. One of these days I am going to spend some time in the Detroit library system and dig up proof and publish it on the web.

andrew_ 6y ago
The trolly network was extensive, however. The reason(s) for their demise are googlable.
- rmason 6y ago
  Oh I know all about the trolley network. My dad took me on the trolley on its last day. I was too young to have any memory of it but I've got the picture ;<). For sixty years my father insisted that the auto company's were behind its demise. Shortly before he passed away it all came out that he had been correct all along. Although some Detroit media still dispute the proof.
cabalos 6y ago
A few years back, I stumbled on the master transit plan for the Metro Detroit region prior to the freeway system being built. The original plan called for rail running in the median of the freeways, similar to how spots are in Chicago. The plan included artist concepts, layouts, etc. Not sure if its true or not, but I had read reports the auto industry fought the rail component of the project to its death. It was a really fascinating document. It's somewhere on the internet; I wish I could find the link.

lumberingjack 6y ago

This is my hometown and I've been inside this system as early as 1999 and as late as 2008. Not much to look at inside there wet damp small tunnels every exit except the two or three concrete over. Huge water main down the center and huge fiber optic cables.

datavirtue 6y ago

We use it for stuff.

wolco2 6y ago

In this day and age of covid are subways and mass transit really that safe / healthy?

astrange 6y ago
They are perfectly safe if you open the windows or have an AC. Tokyo, Seoul, all of China, all doing great. The Midwest, doing terribly, because they meet up at church or at the grocery store and don't open the windows.

WorldMaker 6y ago

Another fun fact: revisiting subway proposals and possibly using the existing tunnels was a part of Cincinnati's sometimes derided failed 2012 Summer Olympics bid. (ETA: Mocking that Olympics bid was where I first learned of the unfinished subway system.)

lacker 6y ago

I grew up in Cincinnati, and this story seems strange to me, because getting around Cincinnati seems pretty easy, actually. It isn't just my opinion - statistics generally say that commute times in Cincinnati are lower than average for the US. https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/10/23/see-how-cincinnati-commute-times-compare-to-other.html https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/10/23/see-h... And they are way better than European cities like London for example - https://www.google.com/search?q=average+london+commute+times https://www.google.com/search?q=average+london+commute+times Cities like San Francisco and Washington DC are worse for getting around, despite having better public transportation. It's faster to drive 20 miles in Cincinnati than to travel four miles from the Haight to SOMA in San Francisco. Sure, there is sometimes traffic in Cincinnati, but there just isn't as much as the more densely populated cities. I think so much of the population lives further out near I-275, it doesn't make as much sense to build public transportation there.