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You might be able to argue that Assange crossed the line between "journalism" and "hacking", for example when he attempted to assist with cracking a hash. The

by Closi 6y ago

You might be able to argue that Assange crossed the line between "journalism" and "hacking", for example when he attempted to assist with cracking a hash. The UK has other history about journalists hacking (see the phone hacking scandal). It's one thing to receive the contents of a hack, and quite another to offer active assistance to exploit systems.

raxxorrax 6y ago
How scandalous, he hacked someone... Of course that is far worse than killing hundreds of thousands of people in the middle east which he put the finger on. Hacking and computer sabotage.... really? You call that justice? It is not and the UK jurisdiction remains a joke. A posh joke, but a joke nonetheless. Please... as if there would have been alternative to leaking hunan rights violations.
- frereubu 6y ago
  > Of course that is far worse than killing hundreds of thousands of people in the middle east which he put the finger on. > as if there would have been alternative to leaking hunan rights violations. The comment you're responding to did not make either of these claims.
- Closi 6y ago
  Unfortunately nowhere in the law does it state "you can break any law if it helps human rights causes". I fully support Assange FYI, but at the same time I think he possibly broke laws while doing his (incredibly important) work, or at least there would be enough ambiguity around law to bring a case to the crown court (remember this is the magistrates).
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    But a judiciary should be careful to synchronize laws and justice to the best degree possible. Otherwise they end up as the joke that they are. There is room to the bottom of course, but I don't think trust is available in excess in western nations.
agd 6y ago
I’m not convinced by your implied equivalence of, on the one hand, phone hacking celebrities and murder victims to generate tabloid clickbait, and on the other, helping protect an intelligence source whose leaked material shows human rights abuses and the death of innocent civilians.
- pydry 6y ago
  If he hacked a celebrity's account and used it to uncover a killing spree by said celebrity it might be equivalent. And, no doubt the celebrity's supporters would argue that he'd crossed the line from journalism to hacking as well. If Assange were a Russian holed up in Belarus being extradited to Russia for uncovering Russian war crimes by cracking password hashes I really wonder how many people here would still be arguing that he "crossed the line". My guess is precisely zero, and any Russians who did so would be mocked and accused of being shills.
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
    Some people are still into the idea of "national unity" and "collective insult" things.
- anothernewdude 6y ago
  You're certainly right that there are other charges related to Assange's crimes.
- Closi 6y ago
  Unfortunately the law usually legislates against acts rather than outcomes. Additionally in the eyes of the law, hacking a celebrity does not bring a higher punishment than hacking a nation state, despite its good intentions and the public interest of the released information. And he isn't accused of "helping to protect an intelligence source", because that's not a crime. One claim raised by the prosecution is that Assange was sent hashes and ran them against a rainbow table in an attempt to provide assistance to manning in order to grant further access to confidential government systems. If this claim is true or not, we don't know because it hasn't gone to court yet, but the accusation is more than "just protecting a source". And personally I think there should be an exception to releasing documents that show government wrongdoing which means it isn't illegal - however this is not codified in law.
e12e 6y ago
> when he attempted to assist with cracking a hash Was it ever proved that he did? There was some non-committal talk quoted, but nothing beyond that? You also say "for example" - are there any other credible allegations that Assange "crossed the line"?
- pera 6y ago
  > Was it ever proved that he did? No, which is why in the judgment every reference to a supposed attempt of "cracking a hash" is preceded by "alleged".
- NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
  This is a little bit disingenuous. There is no proven accusation because Assange hasn't gone to trial, which is the part of the process where that standard applies. The credible allegation part is the indictment handed down from a federal grand jury; this is the 'probable cause' standard.
  - e12e 6y ago
    I should've worded that differently - we obviously do not expect accusations to be proven before a trial. What I meant was rather: has there been made any credible/sensible accusation for him being involved in hacking? Because while the drivel made it through the grand jury, it's still a vague answer without any allegations of follow-up. Could I help you crack a password hash? Sure, maybe I could. Am I now conspiring to hack into a military network? I rather think not. And that's even though you have my offer in writing.
    - morelisp 6y ago
      If tomorrow NovemberWhiskey was arrested and found incontrovertibly guilty of hacking a military network, you don't think it's even slightly reasonable that you might also end up on the stand after that comment?
      - e12e 6y ago
jacksonkmarley 6y ago
That was, in fact, the judgement of the court in this case; that he allegedly participated in the alleged crime and did not just receive the data resulting from it. edit: added 'allegedly' as his guilt or innocence is not evaluated
- jacksonkmarley 6y ago
  This was coverered in point #117 in the summary. N.B. I should have said 'allegedly participated in the alleged crime'.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
If you imagine Assange's "hacking" taking place with physical objects, the charge looks ridiculous. In short, Manning told Assange she could access a military filing cabinet, and was going to go remove all the documents in them to leak to Assange. Before leaving, she asked Assange if he had some gloves to hide her fingerprints. He said he'd check, and Manning left to grab the documents. Would you consider Assange's actions there to cross the line of journalism?
- africanboy 6y ago
  Yes. The journalist in your example should not be accessory to a crime. If Manning asked for gloves to hide her fingerprints, Assange should have answered "send me the documents when you have them, but I can't help you hiding your fingerprints" If you imagine the hack being another crime, maybe it's clearer. Imagine Manning told Assange she could get the files but in order to get them she had to kill the guards at the door and asked Assange if he had a gun.
  - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
    'she had to kill the guards at the door' . Why stop there, while we are at it, imagine she had to commit a terrorist attack and a genocide at once and Assange volunteered to help
    - africanboy 6y ago
      A crime is a crime, justice doesn't care. A journalist should not be accessory to a crime when receiving infornations. I made that example to make it clearer, but if you don't like it I can make another one: to get the documents she needed to open the door, so she Asked Assange if he had a crowbar. The simple fact that he didn't say "no, I can't help you with that" is the problem.
      - boomboomsubban 6y ago
        >crime is a crime, justice doesn't care. Which is why all the war crimes detailed in Manning's leaks have been prosecuted with the criminals behind bars. Further, a crime isn't just a crime. A journalist attempting to protect their source is an essential part of their freedom of the press. Prosecuting them for that action infringes on their rights, making it unconstitutional. Even if you disagree with my assessment of Assange's actions, it should be clear that justice does care about the context.

by Closi 6y ago

raxxorrax 6y ago

How scandalous, he hacked someone... Of course that is far worse than killing hundreds of thousands of people in the middle east which he put the finger on. Hacking and computer sabotage.... really? You call that justice? It is not and the UK jurisdiction remains a joke. A posh joke, but a joke nonetheless. Please... as if there would have been alternative to leaking hunan rights violations.

frereubu 6y ago
> Of course that is far worse than killing hundreds of thousands of people in the middle east which he put the finger on. > as if there would have been alternative to leaking hunan rights violations. The comment you're responding to did not make either of these claims.
Closi 6y ago
Unfortunately nowhere in the law does it state "you can break any law if it helps human rights causes". I fully support Assange FYI, but at the same time I think he possibly broke laws while doing his (incredibly important) work, or at least there would be enough ambiguity around law to bring a case to the crown court (remember this is the magistrates).
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  But a judiciary should be careful to synchronize laws and justice to the best degree possible. Otherwise they end up as the joke that they are. There is room to the bottom of course, but I don't think trust is available in excess in western nations.

agd 6y ago

I’m not convinced by your implied equivalence of, on the one hand, phone hacking celebrities and murder victims to generate tabloid clickbait, and on the other, helping protect an intelligence source whose leaked material shows human rights abuses and the death of innocent civilians.

pydry 6y ago
If he hacked a celebrity's account and used it to uncover a killing spree by said celebrity it might be equivalent. And, no doubt the celebrity's supporters would argue that he'd crossed the line from journalism to hacking as well. If Assange were a Russian holed up in Belarus being extradited to Russia for uncovering Russian war crimes by cracking password hashes I really wonder how many people here would still be arguing that he "crossed the line". My guess is precisely zero, and any Russians who did so would be mocked and accused of being shills.
- JAlexoid 6y ago
  Some people are still into the idea of "national unity" and "collective insult" things.
anothernewdude 6y ago
You're certainly right that there are other charges related to Assange's crimes.
Closi 6y ago
Unfortunately the law usually legislates against acts rather than outcomes. Additionally in the eyes of the law, hacking a celebrity does not bring a higher punishment than hacking a nation state, despite its good intentions and the public interest of the released information. And he isn't accused of "helping to protect an intelligence source", because that's not a crime. One claim raised by the prosecution is that Assange was sent hashes and ran them against a rainbow table in an attempt to provide assistance to manning in order to grant further access to confidential government systems. If this claim is true or not, we don't know because it hasn't gone to court yet, but the accusation is more than "just protecting a source". And personally I think there should be an exception to releasing documents that show government wrongdoing which means it isn't illegal - however this is not codified in law.

e12e 6y ago

> when he attempted to assist with cracking a hash Was it ever proved that he did? There was some non-committal talk quoted, but nothing beyond that? You also say "for example" - are there any other credible allegations that Assange "crossed the line"?

pera 6y ago
> Was it ever proved that he did? No, which is why in the judgment every reference to a supposed attempt of "cracking a hash" is preceded by "alleged".
NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
This is a little bit disingenuous. There is no proven accusation because Assange hasn't gone to trial, which is the part of the process where that standard applies. The credible allegation part is the indictment handed down from a federal grand jury; this is the 'probable cause' standard.
- e12e 6y ago
  I should've worded that differently - we obviously do not expect accusations to be proven before a trial. What I meant was rather: has there been made any credible/sensible accusation for him being involved in hacking? Because while the drivel made it through the grand jury, it's still a vague answer without any allegations of follow-up. Could I help you crack a password hash? Sure, maybe I could. Am I now conspiring to hack into a military network? I rather think not. And that's even though you have my offer in writing.
  - morelisp 6y ago
    If tomorrow NovemberWhiskey was arrested and found incontrovertibly guilty of hacking a military network, you don't think it's even slightly reasonable that you might also end up on the stand after that comment?
    - e12e 6y ago

jacksonkmarley 6y ago

That was, in fact, the judgement of the court in this case; that he allegedly participated in the alleged crime and did not just receive the data resulting from it. edit: added 'allegedly' as his guilt or innocence is not evaluated

jacksonkmarley 6y ago
This was coverered in point #117 in the summary. N.B. I should have said 'allegedly participated in the alleged crime'.

boomboomsubban 6y ago

If you imagine Assange's "hacking" taking place with physical objects, the charge looks ridiculous. In short, Manning told Assange she could access a military filing cabinet, and was going to go remove all the documents in them to leak to Assange. Before leaving, she asked Assange if he had some gloves to hide her fingerprints. He said he'd check, and Manning left to grab the documents. Would you consider Assange's actions there to cross the line of journalism?

africanboy 6y ago
Yes. The journalist in your example should not be accessory to a crime. If Manning asked for gloves to hide her fingerprints, Assange should have answered "send me the documents when you have them, but I can't help you hiding your fingerprints" If you imagine the hack being another crime, maybe it's clearer. Imagine Manning told Assange she could get the files but in order to get them she had to kill the guards at the door and asked Assange if he had a gun.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  'she had to kill the guards at the door' . Why stop there, while we are at it, imagine she had to commit a terrorist attack and a genocide at once and Assange volunteered to help
  - africanboy 6y ago
    A crime is a crime, justice doesn't care. A journalist should not be accessory to a crime when receiving infornations. I made that example to make it clearer, but if you don't like it I can make another one: to get the documents she needed to open the door, so she Asked Assange if he had a crowbar. The simple fact that he didn't say "no, I can't help you with that" is the problem.
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      >crime is a crime, justice doesn't care. Which is why all the war crimes detailed in Manning's leaks have been prosecuted with the criminals behind bars. Further, a crime isn't just a crime. A journalist attempting to protect their source is an essential part of their freedom of the press. Prosecuting them for that action infringes on their rights, making it unconstitutional. Even if you disagree with my assessment of Assange's actions, it should be clear that justice does care about the context.