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I like apple devices, I always hated to develop for them. The burden of review on app store is just too much. I would rather prefer to do a web app and to be fr

I like apple devices, I always hated to develop for them. The burden of review on app store is just too much. I would rather prefer to do a web app and to be free, to make quick releases instead of chatting with apple reviewers for weeks when you need to publish some critical release. I don't need apple customers, neither they payment system. Web is king.

threeseed 6y ago
Mobile web apps are universally terrible. So if you want happy customers then a native app is a necessity.
- meibo 6y ago
  They are terrible because Apple sabotages the ecosystem that enables them by crippling the necessary APIs in Safari. PWAs can be a great experience, and they already are on android and desktop when they're well done.
  - throw14082020 6y ago
    can you provide some examples, preferably the best you can find. I'm curious what great experiences of PWAs actually mean, as I myself have not found any.
    - StavrosK 6y ago
      I don't know if it's a PWA by some strict definition, but Fastmail has always been the best web app I've seen.
    - Aeolun 6y ago
      Little Alchemy 2 is a PWA and it’s been great since I installed it on my home screen.
    - nicoburns 6y ago
      Tinder is a good example from a mainstream company. Also Facebook: better tha there mobile app.
      - valuearb 6y ago
        Facebook is only better in the web in that it’s harder to track you. Uploading images, videos etc anything complex sucks. I say this as someone who deleted the Facebook app and only uses web because of tracking.
    - matwood 6y ago
      I don't know about great, but using Twitter as PWA on the iPad was better than the app b/c the iPad app was so bad. The app has since gotten better though.
    - JKCalhoun 6y ago
      Looking at the replies to your comment, it appears there is a certain category of app that is better on the web (although it sounds like in many of those cases it is because their native app is so poorly implemented). So, we're not likely to see video editing software on the web surpass native any time soon.
  - asutekku 6y ago
    PWAs are far from good experience. The user experience just in clicking a button in a PWA vs native app is miles away from each other and that does not even need any special APIs. Sure, it’s easy to develop but it’s inferior to native apps as long as the web rendering tech is not on the same level as native
    - numpad0 6y ago
      Is PWA bad or is the _whole web_ built on top of a Text Markup Language just bad
      - valuearb 6y ago
        Yes.
    - jiofih 6y ago
      It’s been at least four years since the artificial 300ms for pointer events has been removed.
    - holoduke 6y ago
      I would argue that the render engine of web (CSS) is much more sufisticated than Apple's and Android's UI component frameworks. A well written single page fully clientside rendered web app can be as fast and good-looking as a native app. In my opinion it's easier to develop as well.
      - jamil7 6y ago
        I've done a lot of web development and iOS development (not so much Android so can't comment too much). I don't really agree with most of this statement at all. The web is a powerful platform for a lot of reasons but I don't agree that it's easy to develop for, iOS is a much less hostile and predicatble environment to run client side code in. I also don't believe that CSS/HTML are particularly well suited to rich mobile applications in comparison to UIKit or SwiftUI. I still write PWAs and native apps and don't see why they can't coexist. Proponents of the PWA approach seem to really want PWAs to replace native development. There is a lot of functionality and APIs that native apps have access to on both platforms, I'm not sure I see the point in browser developers implementing every single one of them when a subset can cover 70% of JSON-viewer type app needs, the remaining niche can be written as native apps.
hn3333 6y ago
FWIW: As a dev I've made both contact with Apple and with Google reps and it was like day and night. Apple actually offers support and tries to resolve my problems while Google feels like getting some bureaucracy done at a public office or worse. (Speaking of European bureaucracy, YMMV.)
- mekkkkkk 6y ago
  Well the difference is that as a general app developer you barely ever need to interact with Google. As for Apple, you do it a lot. I'd rather take rare and abysmal interactions than constant, annoying ones. I've had numerous app rejections because of reviewers simply incapable of reading instructions, and it's immensely frustrating. Especially when important hotfixes etc. is put on hold for days for no reason whatsoever. Instruction: Do NOT tap button X to log in, instead use method Z. Rejection: Tapped button X, could not log in. Your app is broken. Welp, time to resubmit and wait for a couple of days to possibly get the same rejection again. EDIT: To clarify, the login procedure is different and simplified for test accounts, such as the ones reviewers are using. Real users need to identify with real ID for (valid) reasons.
  - vinayak2110 6y ago
    hi
  - howlgarnish 6y ago
    Why do you have button X if you're not supposed to tap it? Will all your users read, understand and follow your instructions?
    - mekkkkkk 6y ago
      Sorry for being unclear. I updated my post. The service uses swedish digital ID verification. This is not feasible for reviewers.
      - ehutch79 6y ago
pulse7 6y ago
<sarcasm>You may be liable for stealing Apple's 30% by not participating in the App store. So please think again and rather write an app...</sarcasm>
- still_grokking 6y ago
  Don't say this too laud or else Apple will sue all developers who don't write apps for the app store, as they're clearly stealing Apples revenues. /s
TeeWEE 6y ago
Releasing apps for the App Store is also a nightmare to me. Every reviewer reviews your app differently. I like that apple only allows apps of a certain quality. But some guidelines are multi-interpretable.. Causing issues when submitting app updates.
abhinav22 6y ago
My experience has been nothing like that. The developer portal is definitely a bit buggy but all my apps have been reviewed and approved very timely. Critical updates go through very quickly. However I appreciate it’s a big process and given the amount of complaints online on how bad the process is, I put a lot of extra care to make sure everything goes through very smoothly. I use TestFlight a lot to test a lot and I look at the App Store process as akin to sending my software to a publisher and writing to CDs - I go to full efforts to make sure it is as perfect as possible by the point I’m submitting. Also might have to do with number of users you have. Now I have quite a few downloads on my main app, so I may be getting a bit better treatment on priority fixes.
zepto 6y ago
How does this have any relevance to the linked piece?

threeseed 6y ago

Mobile web apps are universally terrible. So if you want happy customers then a native app is a necessity.

meibo 6y ago
They are terrible because Apple sabotages the ecosystem that enables them by crippling the necessary APIs in Safari. PWAs can be a great experience, and they already are on android and desktop when they're well done.
- throw14082020 6y ago
  can you provide some examples, preferably the best you can find. I'm curious what great experiences of PWAs actually mean, as I myself have not found any.
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    I don't know if it's a PWA by some strict definition, but Fastmail has always been the best web app I've seen.
  - Aeolun 6y ago
    Little Alchemy 2 is a PWA and it’s been great since I installed it on my home screen.
  - nicoburns 6y ago
    Tinder is a good example from a mainstream company. Also Facebook: better tha there mobile app.
    - valuearb 6y ago
      Facebook is only better in the web in that it’s harder to track you. Uploading images, videos etc anything complex sucks. I say this as someone who deleted the Facebook app and only uses web because of tracking.
  - matwood 6y ago
    I don't know about great, but using Twitter as PWA on the iPad was better than the app b/c the iPad app was so bad. The app has since gotten better though.
  - JKCalhoun 6y ago
    Looking at the replies to your comment, it appears there is a certain category of app that is better on the web (although it sounds like in many of those cases it is because their native app is so poorly implemented). So, we're not likely to see video editing software on the web surpass native any time soon.
- asutekku 6y ago
  PWAs are far from good experience. The user experience just in clicking a button in a PWA vs native app is miles away from each other and that does not even need any special APIs. Sure, it’s easy to develop but it’s inferior to native apps as long as the web rendering tech is not on the same level as native
  - numpad0 6y ago
    Is PWA bad or is the _whole web_ built on top of a Text Markup Language just bad
    - valuearb 6y ago
      Yes.
  - jiofih 6y ago
    It’s been at least four years since the artificial 300ms for pointer events has been removed.
  - holoduke 6y ago
    I would argue that the render engine of web (CSS) is much more sufisticated than Apple's and Android's UI component frameworks. A well written single page fully clientside rendered web app can be as fast and good-looking as a native app. In my opinion it's easier to develop as well.
    - jamil7 6y ago
      I've done a lot of web development and iOS development (not so much Android so can't comment too much). I don't really agree with most of this statement at all. The web is a powerful platform for a lot of reasons but I don't agree that it's easy to develop for, iOS is a much less hostile and predicatble environment to run client side code in. I also don't believe that CSS/HTML are particularly well suited to rich mobile applications in comparison to UIKit or SwiftUI. I still write PWAs and native apps and don't see why they can't coexist. Proponents of the PWA approach seem to really want PWAs to replace native development. There is a lot of functionality and APIs that native apps have access to on both platforms, I'm not sure I see the point in browser developers implementing every single one of them when a subset can cover 70% of JSON-viewer type app needs, the remaining niche can be written as native apps.

hn3333 6y ago

FWIW: As a dev I've made both contact with Apple and with Google reps and it was like day and night. Apple actually offers support and tries to resolve my problems while Google feels like getting some bureaucracy done at a public office or worse. (Speaking of European bureaucracy, YMMV.)

mekkkkkk 6y ago
Well the difference is that as a general app developer you barely ever need to interact with Google. As for Apple, you do it a lot. I'd rather take rare and abysmal interactions than constant, annoying ones. I've had numerous app rejections because of reviewers simply incapable of reading instructions, and it's immensely frustrating. Especially when important hotfixes etc. is put on hold for days for no reason whatsoever. Instruction: Do NOT tap button X to log in, instead use method Z. Rejection: Tapped button X, could not log in. Your app is broken. Welp, time to resubmit and wait for a couple of days to possibly get the same rejection again. EDIT: To clarify, the login procedure is different and simplified for test accounts, such as the ones reviewers are using. Real users need to identify with real ID for (valid) reasons.
- vinayak2110 6y ago
  hi
- howlgarnish 6y ago
  Why do you have button X if you're not supposed to tap it? Will all your users read, understand and follow your instructions?
  - mekkkkkk 6y ago
    Sorry for being unclear. I updated my post. The service uses swedish digital ID verification. This is not feasible for reviewers.
    - ehutch79 6y ago

pulse7 6y ago

<sarcasm>You may be liable for stealing Apple's 30% by not participating in the App store. So please think again and rather write an app...</sarcasm>

still_grokking 6y ago
Don't say this too laud or else Apple will sue all developers who don't write apps for the app store, as they're clearly stealing Apples revenues. /s

TeeWEE 6y ago

Releasing apps for the App Store is also a nightmare to me. Every reviewer reviews your app differently. I like that apple only allows apps of a certain quality. But some guidelines are multi-interpretable.. Causing issues when submitting app updates.

abhinav22 6y ago

My experience has been nothing like that. The developer portal is definitely a bit buggy but all my apps have been reviewed and approved very timely. Critical updates go through very quickly. However I appreciate it’s a big process and given the amount of complaints online on how bad the process is, I put a lot of extra care to make sure everything goes through very smoothly. I use TestFlight a lot to test a lot and I look at the App Store process as akin to sending my software to a publisher and writing to CDs - I go to full efforts to make sure it is as perfect as possible by the point I’m submitting. Also might have to do with number of users you have. Now I have quite a few downloads on my main app, so I may be getting a bit better treatment on priority fixes.

zepto 6y ago

How does this have any relevance to the linked piece?