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Stadia uses a web app to bypass Apple's policy on cloud gaming apps
- kevmo314 6y agoI wouldn't be surprised if the Android app is a thin webview wrapper either. Stadia is streaming content, it's not like it needs much beyond what the web browser can do.
- chmod775 6y agoI remember trying to figure out why video playback was so horribly slow in Chrome on an ARM device. Streaming the video with mplayer would take around 60% CPU time (out of 400%), but playing it in Chrome it would max out at 400% and start dropping frames. In the end the answer was that each video frame had to be copied between buffers about three times with Chrome, among other things, whereas mplayer was able to draw directly to the framebuffer. Now I'm not saying it isn't theoretically possible to make this fast (and Chrome has various optimizations nowadays for a select number of platforms), but abstractions can be expensive - especially for video. It's best to go as native as possible if you're on underpowered hardware or want to go easy on your user's battery life.
- PurpleFoxy 6y agoGoogle has the ability to just change chrome to make it work.
- stefan_ 6y agoEhhh, there is a big difference between streaming some Netflix show that has no input and can buffer minutes or more and a game where even 500ms of buffering are unplayable. Plenty of streaming protocols aren't designed to do that in the first place (hello, HLS) and I could very well imagine players just falling over if they are not in their happy place of usual buffer sizes.
- kevmo314 6y agoI haven't seen such issues with webrtc. It's been very low latency for my use cases.
- IshKebab 6y agoUnlikely - web video isn't designed for extremely low latency. Much easier to do if you control the whole stack.
- jtsiskin 6y agohttps://webrtc.googlesource.com/src/+/refs/heads/master/docs/native-code/rtp-hdrext/playout-delay https://webrtc.googlesource.com/src/+/refs/heads/master/docs...
- devadvance 6y agoThe native app uses Flutter [0]. Disclosure: I work on Stadia, and am speaking only for myself. [0] https://9to5google.com/2019/11/08/google-stadia-app-play-store-download/ https://9to5google.com/2019/11/08/google-stadia-app-play-sto...
- threeseed 6y agoAre you still using a web view ? Because obviously then it would be irrelevant whether it's Safari, Flutter or Visual Basic.
- devadvance 6y agoThe native mobile app does not use a web view.
- Apocryphon 6y agoThe Flutter webview is fairly basic, I believe.
- megablast 6y agoNo one uses web view anymore. It’s banned.
- WhoCaresLies 6y agoi was skeptical at first, but i gave it a try with cyberpunk and damn i am impressed, works like a charm, needs more games and i'm ready to wipe my windows partition for good
- RavlaAlvar 6y agoIs stadia worth at this point of time?
- reallydontask 6y agoThat depends. If you have a high end gaming pc, probably not, but if you have a regular laptop or want to play on your tv, then I'd say yes Edit Should add that you need a solid internet connection
- hanniabu 6y agoSolid as in continuous. My internet is nothing to write home about and I've had no issues.
- samaxe 6y ago> That depends. Do you care if you actually own your games? Or are OK with google owning the games, they just allow you to play them? FTFY
- dageshi 6y agoI very rarely replay any games I buy so frankly no it doesn't matter much to me.
- PurpleFoxy 6y agoYou don’t own your games on any platform anymore unless you are buying physical console games. It’s more a question of do you trust the store. I trust steam to continue existing and providing access for a very long time. I do not expect that stadia will still exist in 10 years. If the service ends up failing, they aren’t going to have gaming hardware sitting around for you to use it.
- kevindong 6y agoInterestingly, trying to use Stadia on desktop Safari still says that Google Chrome is required: > Use Google Chrome to play Stadia on computers & tablets. https://stadia.google.com/warning/8 https://stadia.google.com/warning/8 Which seems strange given that I believe both iOS and macOS Safaris use essentially the same code base.
- flockonus 6y agoThe rendering engine is the same, yes, doesn't mean everything the whole code base is the same
- lern_too_spel 6y agoPossibly controller related. I plugged my Xbox controller into a Mac once, and it didn't know what to do with it (unlike Ubuntu, which recognized it as soon as I plugged it in). Same with Safari. Chrome running on the same Mac correctly recognized the controller and made it available via the gamepad API.
- kitsunesoba 6y agomacOS didn't get native support for Xbox controller/DualShock until 10.13, so that may have been the reason it didn't work. Any Mac running Catalina or Big Sur should have the same level of gamepad support as iOS does.
- dawnerd 6y agoHave you tried a user agent spoofer? I’m almost certain it’s just to funnel you into chrome.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- mhh__ 6y agoI would assume it is, although if I were google I would be plastering that everywhere as a (potentially less than) subtle jab at Apple being conniving with their store in the first place (I assume it's so they can have their product in future as the only native one?)
- villgax 6y agoCould erase the need for Windows altogether
- mhh__ 6y agoIf stadia exists in 5 years time (which I think it will, but still). That and I really can't picture it ever being fast enough to keep up with a real machine on anything other than pretty games rather than (say) counterstrike.
- asadlionpk 6y agoI have a feeling that 90% of the gamers won't care or will prefer convenience of stadia over local experience.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- kgin 6y agoAnd yet Twitter, Quora, Reddit, and every pizza place tell me I need to download a 100mb binary app to read text and order delivery.
- cblconfederate 6y agotwitter on android seems to be a web app
- jeroenhd 6y agoI use the web app, but certain features ("fleets") aren't available in the web version. So far, I haven't felt like I'm missing out on anything, but it's an intentionally incomplete experience.
- Kipters 6y agoOnly the "Lite" app, regular Twitter is mostly native
- vijaybritto 6y agoIts not a webapp. Its a native app AFAIK
- ffpip 6y agoDownload the app to view this comment with the best experience.
- mhh__ 6y ago
- akmarinov 6y agoI think that was a bad call on Apple’s part, they should’ve let them on the store without the dumb every game needs to be a different app rule.
- mhh__ 6y agoThe fact that they can do it suggests that their market position is a little stronger than some HNers suggest it is - i.e. google allow competitors to stadia.
- pests 6y agoWould couldn't every game be it's own app with a Stadia shim to launch and then the Stadia store just links to the real app store apps? seems to get around that restriction.
- maskedinvader 6y agomy only wish is some way to port the game you buy off stadia off to personal pc or some other cloud gaming service because I don't trust Google to stick with any of the products they launch (except maybe gmail and youtube), won't be surprised if they decide to kill stadia someday soon if it's not as successful as they hoped it would be.
- dontblink 6y agoHonestly Google would probably issue refunds if that ever happened. At some point, sp games are often not replayed or come down substantially in price. I'm not worried given their history.
- buzzerbetrayed 6y agoOffer refunds on what? Do you actually buy games on stadia? I thought it was like Netflix where you pay to have access to stream anything.
- city41 6y agoYes, you need to buy the game before you can play it on Stadia. If it was like Netflix, I think it'd be far more compelling, even with a relatively large monthly fee.
- berdario 6y agoIt's a hybrid model. You don't need to have a subscription, you just need to own the game. Some games are also available for free: https://stadia.google.com/games/super-bomberman-r-online https://stadia.google.com/games/super-bomberman-r-online https://stadia.google.com/games/destiny-2 https://stadia.google.com/games/destiny-2 The subscription gives you 4k streaming and games that you can claim and keep (as long as you have a subscription, even if you interrupt it and resume). Very similar to Xbox Games with Gold: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/collections/gameswithgold/xbox https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/collections/gameswithg... I was skeptical at the beginning, but I prefer it to a Netflix style subscription (like Xbox Game Pass Cloud or Playstation Now)... since if the movie that you're interested in leaves the streaming service, it's not a big deal (or even if it's a whole season of a series), but if a videogame is leaving, that might be quite a bit more frustrating, since it might take you more than 1 month to actually complete your game. At least with Stadia I know that (as long as my Stadia account is active) I'll always be able to come back to the games that I'm playing now. Just like on Windows and Luna, you can also make use of your Ubisoft Plus subscription, though (only available in the US, for now) One nice thing is that a lot of modern games (like some available with Ubisoft Plus) have "cloud synced saves" or cross-progression. So you could stop playing on Stadia, and continue your savegame on another platform.
- Despegar 6y agoIt was legally very shrewd for Apple to assist Amazon on getting their game streaming service playable over the web [1]: >“We worked with the Safari team to ensure that some of the things that weren't there are there, and that allowed us to kind of get to where we are today,” Luna head of engineering and technology George Tsipolitis said. All they needed was one of them to cave and the others would follow. This significantly undermines the antitrust cases against them, especially the "essential facilities" claims. [1] https://www.engadget.com/luna-amazon-cloud-gaming-interview-pwa-apple-173948922.html https://www.engadget.com/luna-amazon-cloud-gaming-interview-...
- michaelt 6y agoNot sure I agree this is Apple getting others to 'cave' After all, when game streaming runs in-browser, Apple forego their censorship/app review powers and their 30% cut of sales.
- Despegar 6y agoMicrosoft almost certainly would have preferred if no one had done game streaming through Safari on iOS, because they're a complainant about Apple's App Store policies [1]. That became untenable after Amazon went first. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-18/microsoft-says-antitrust-regulators-need-to-review-app-stores https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-18/microsoft...
- bengale 6y agoI think that 30% is much less important to them when compared to epic/tencent attempt to get their own stores.
- baybal2 6y agoWell, Tencent is the company to whom Apple granted an exemption. So far, only one on record.
- orangepanda 6y agoEpic already has their own store on androids, yet they still publish on the play store. Apple could allow 3rd party app stores knowing very well that they’ll be barely used
- Arubis 6y agoNvidia GeForce now does the same: https://beta.play.geforcenow.com/mall/#/layout/games https://beta.play.geforcenow.com/mall/#/layout/games For all I know, this may be in response to Stadia; I hadn’t seen this functionality when last I checked a few months back.
- weejewel 6y agoNvidia did this before stadia launched it. As always, Google just copies ;)
- richardanaya 6y agoThey copied and made cloud gaming far better.
- merrvk 6y agoOh wow didn’t know about this, seems to work damn well on the iPad.
- richardanaya 6y agoAs someone who has used Google and GeForce Now, I can tell you Stadia’s whole cloud gaming experience is just better.
- robertoandred 6y agoThis isn't some gotcha; Apple's policy has always been that if you found the App Store policies too restrictive you should make a web app.
- rewq4321 6y ago> This isn't some gotcha Do you mean that Apple's policies on cloud gaming aren't a specially-crafted edge case? Because if so, it seems like you're wrong there. They allow browsers on the app store, which can access the whole (unmoderated) web, so it can't be about moderation. Seems like they just don't want anyone to create an "app store" within their App Store. Either that, or they're trying to keep competition at bay while they develop Apple Arcade. Maybe there's a better explanation that I'm missing.
- the_gipsy 6y agoThey don't allow browsers, they only allow shells around apple provided WebViews.
- judge2020 6y agoThis has nothing to do with why they don't want game streaming apps on the store. Running a Gecko shell instead of webkit on iOS wouldn't change their 'moderation' (preventing other app stores from being in the Apple App Store) stance.
- rewq4321 6y agoI know this, but as judge2020 pointed out, that's irrelevant to my point. That said, it is relevant to the whole anti-trust thing because Apple has a stranglehold on browser features (such as PWA stuff).
- the_gipsy 6y agoIt is very relevant. Another browser with e.g. push notifications in the appstore would be the equivalent of stadia displacing appstore games - but for 99% of all of appstore.
- beagle3 6y agoIs it using anything more than WebRTC? (Or HLS if the low latency mode is finally in?) Is there a reason not to switch e.g. YouTube and Netflix, Zoom etc to a similar model and forego the app? (Yes, the app has its positives but also the 15%-30% tax)
- weejewel 6y agoOn iOS that will mean not being able to use Cast for example. And of course, stadia customers (pc gamers) are more eager to jump through a hoop than Netflix customers.
- IX-103 6y agoAFAIK there's bit more with input devices (for low latency keyboard and mouse events and a portable interface to access joysticks and gamepads). I think there's also some other APIs they need to coordinate with the stadia controller, though that may be optional. Of course Google has been one of the companies that has been pushing for these APIs in the first place. (Which makes me wonder if Zoom would exist without Google meet...)
- izacus 6y agoI wonder if Safari will now suddenly lose WebRTC features required for Stadia due to "security".
- tobyhinloopen 6y agoMy first thought as well.
- zepto 6y agoWhy would you think that? Apple specially recommended this approach.
- tobyhinloopen 6y agoSource?
- javagram 6y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25544687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25544687
- m463 6y agoTo be honest webrtc does expose things like true ip address (to allow for peer-to-peer video)
- TheRealSteel 6y agoAbsolutely, or they'll introduce latency that makes video playback fine but gaming unusable.
- Schnitz 6y agoand so an inferior technology wins again :)
- didibus 6y agoUsing Stadia, I actually can see how it could be the future, but only once internet catches up. I recently moved, and that's what made Stadia so much better. Now that I have gigabit fiber with unlimited data, and a WiFi 6 router, with less congestion, the quality of the streaming has been superb. I honestly can't tell I'm streaming. And the convenience of just starting immediately back into a game, no download or install, no updates, freedom to change screens at a whim, from PC, to TV to phone, to iPad, etc. The only thing missing is for it to have much more content, and for some guarantee from Google that it won't be killed off. I tried other similar services, like GamePass and PSNow, but they don't work as well, the streams are lower resolution, seem to have more artifact and the latencies are higher. So whatever Google is doin seems to be working, that said the game selection is so much better on PSNow and GamePass, and the option to install the games (which gives the best image quality and lowest latency), they still compete with Stadia. At this point, I'm just hoping some more reliable company then Google comes up with a service that's just as reliable, maybe Amazon Luna will be it, or GamePass streaming could get a lot better, or PSNow, but the one I'm most hoping for is for Valve to get onboard and offer a Steam streaming service. Edit: I also wish they added RT support, I feel a cloud gaming service should offer best graphic settings at all time, since that's one of the advantage I'm looking from it, paying monthly for hardware that gets kept up to date.
- endtime 6y agoI worked on Google Fiber wifi routers ~5 years ago years ago and got to be one of the earliest dogfooders of Stadia. My personal take at the time was that gigabit internet needed a killer app, and cloud gaming could be it. Glad to see that dream being sort-of realized!
- nr2x 6y agoGeForce Now is great and you use games you buy on other platforms (eg Steam). Unlike Stadia, if the service doesn’t pan out you still have games, and access to much better sales, it’s also $5/mo and can handle Cyberpunk. I don’t see anything stadia offers over GeForce now.
- Rebelgecko 6y ago
- TheRealSteel 6y agoPrediction: Apple will nerf performance when streaming video in Safari on iOS (perhaps specifically while using game controller APIs) to prevent Stadia, xCloud etcetera circumventing the App Store, under the guise of "power saving", or similar "for the users' own good" rubbish
- javagram 6y agoPrediction v reality. The post right above yours describes how Apple added capabilities to Safari in cooperation with Amazon’s team to enable this use case... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25544687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25544687
- ukoki 6y agoApple needs streaming games via the browser to be good enough so that the app store is not considered a monopoly, but not good enough to be an actual viable alternative.