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I went to West Point two decades ago, before the apparent change to the honor code in 2015 that allowed for second chances. It does take a little time to adjus

I went to West Point two decades ago, before the apparent change to the honor code in 2015 that allowed for second chances. It does take a little time to adjust to the honor code, but among all the things learned at WP, this one stuck with me the most. I (and many of my friends) came to literally hate lying/cheating, and to disdain those who do. But there’s another route that is taken too — the opposite, where some cadets become very good at lying/cheating. What starts out as a trivial lie must be covered up with larger more intricate lies, moving from something accidental or thoughtless to something intentional and deliberate. The cover-up and defense, often bringing friends into the mix, turns toxic really quickly. This is what happens when a perceived innocuous lie is seen a a life-ruiner. My father also went to a service academy, and often after catching me in a lie would say, “I’m mad at you about lying, but I’m ever madder you were dumb enough to get caught!” My dad is one of the most moral men I’ve ever met, and I only just now connected the dots here with regard to a zero-toleration honor code. I suspect the 2015 change was a practical rather than principled change: to make it easier to catch and correct violations instead of letting them fester and spread. In some ways the service academies are a giant experiment in human character. Humans naturally lie, cheat, and steal in order to survive and protect their own tribe (i.e., go to war). Can you change that? Not really. But you can create a culture like that. The change, as ironic as it may seem, may do a better job of creating that kind of culture by attacking the tendency to dig deeper holes.

fbelzile 6y ago
I've been through the Canadian equivalent of West Point and have done a week exchange at West Point. You're totally right about the experiment in human nature. Depending on which degree you were working on, there was often just way too much to do with the time given. The "academic wing" wouldn't coordinate with the "military wing" and we'd end up having a slew of inspections alongside midterms. I remember getting caught skipping out on military training on a Saturday (which was just a day of lectures, easy to slip out after attendance) to catch up on homework. At the same time, an officer went through the dorms to ensure nobody was skipping. I was caught in my room and spent the next two weeks having to wear an uncomfortable uniform all day and reporting to do drill every morning. Obviously, choosing to cheat academically is way worse than skipping a Saturday of lectures, but if the system is designed to break you, it shouldn't be impossible to recover from.
- dak1 6y ago
  It's almost expected you don't have enough time. When I was at West Point they'd explicitly state that. Additionally, there was a hard lights off policy at midnight to ensure cadets got enough sleep, yet people invariably would be up with a flashlight underneath their covers trying to get work done until 2am. Plebes in particular got less time as well, as they'd be subject to additional tasks/hazing until a given time when they couldn't be disturbed (I believe 7pm).
- dr_orpheus 6y ago
  I had a similar thought when I saw this that there may just be way too much to be working on. The two instances of widespread cheating that I have seen going through school were the results of: 1. There was absolutely way too much to do. Classes within a major did not coordinate large projects/tests and students tried to find a way to cope. 2. The teacher was so terrible that they felt vastly underprepared for an upcoming test.
- nradov 6y ago
  Giving students more work than they can reasonably accomplish is a good object lesson in ruthless prioritization and time management. In the real world you have to decide which tasks to do well and which to half-ass or just drop entirely. I didn't attend a military academy, but did go to an academically demanding college (with an honor code). Some of my fellow students were ridiculous in that they didn't know when to quit and tried to do all assignments perfectly even at the expense of having a social life or getting some exercise.
  - silexia 6y ago
    Devil's Advocate - to carry the parent's analogy of ruthless lessons being taught to the grandparent's comment on don't get caught, Sun Tzu clammed that most military success is due to surprising the enemy with deception and tricks. It seems like it would be good to have a very strict honor code but also require impossible tasks to be done, thus forcing cadets to learn to be deceptive in the most effective way possible.
  - powersnail 6y ago
chrisBob 6y ago
I am an '04 grad, and there has been some system of second chances for a while. I have a friend that started a year ahead of me who was a "turn back" for an honor violation. The violation was in her first year and they decided she was still adapting to the honor code when it happened. The result was 5 years at West Point where she had an in between rank of Cadet PFC for her second year. The idea of zero tolerance is a little crazy. Have you ever violated a software license, or streamed something with someone else's account? Those should technically be honor violations, but they aren't prosecuting those. It isn't 100% clear to me where to draw the line.
- cies 6y ago
  > The idea of zero tolerance is a little crazy. When laws are BS, ZT is not a little crazy: it's inhumane. > It isn't 100% clear to me where to draw the line. I feel that's the idea with BS laws: everyone is a criminal, so you can just dig for dirt on anyone and make them go away as law enforcement. What BS laws? Well all victimless crime for one. I dont mind some victimless behaviours are offenses (punishable with a fine), but a crime (punishable with jail time)?! That's IMHO a big part of why the law system is broken. We need the constitutional right not to be punished for victimless crime.
  - rightbyte 6y ago
    > What BS laws? Well all victimless crime Reckless driving and child pornography comes to mind. It is crimes against the state atleast where I live.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      >Reckless driving and child pornography comes to mind. It is crimes against the state atleast where I live. Because teenagers getting air off the train track berm in their shitbox cars and sending nudes to each other definitely needs to be prosecuted like criminals <rolls eyes>. It's easy to call for zero tolerance in the abstract.
      - 6y ago
ssimpson 6y ago
My dad worked at USMA from ‘93 to ‘98 and I grew up around the Academy in high school. I always thought it was so cool how if say you left your calculator on the desk it would just sit there and people would work around it. I worked at Victor Constant as a patroller and had lots of fun hanging out with some of the Cadets that were in Ski Patrol as well.
dfxm12 6y ago
This is what happens when a perceived innocuous lie is seen a a life-ruiner. What penalty is there to breaking the honor code that it ruins one's life?
- JKCalhoun 6y ago
  Were they not expelled from West Point?
  - dfxm12 6y ago
    The cadets referenced in the article? The article claims that most will probably not get expelled. In either case, can you explain further why getting expelled from West Point ruins one's life?
    - leroy_masochist 6y ago
      Does it really take that much imagination to understand how it could seem that way to someone who has, realistically, been organizing their life around getting into a service academy since they were 15ish years old?
    - albntomat0 6y ago
      Being expelled by a college makes it much more difficult to get into another
- DFHippie 6y ago
  "Hope-dasher" would be better.
dehrmann 6y ago
> It does take a little time to adjust to the honor code Is it this? > A cadet will not lie, cheat, or steal, or tolerate those who do. I'd hope we're not admitting cadets who make a habit of cheating and stealing before joining.
Melting_Harps 6y ago
> It does take a little time to adjust to the honor code, but among all the things learned at WP, this one stuck with me the most. I (and many of my friends) came to literally hate lying/cheating, and to disdain those who do. But there’s another route that is taken too — the opposite, where some cadets become very good at lying/cheating. Honest question: Don't you think that is systemic within the Military itself and is one of the trademarks of its so called culture? Which is why the State will go the lengths it will when things are leaked and given how Assange and Snowden are treated when they prove Intelligence agencies lied (supposedly crimes punishable with long term sentences) to Congress and the US Citizens? I come from a military family and the hypocrisy is suffocating, any time you even suggest what it really is (Empire) its like the scars from the kool-aid levels of indoctrination re-open and they leap to extremes about fictional forms of 'terrorism' to rationalize their existence with even more lies. I stopped talking about illegal interventionism by Imperial decree that violates the US Constitution (and their supposed sacred oath) long ago, as every conflict since WWII has not been declared by Congress. And most are Intelleence Agency led conflicts, that now last decades with no end in sigh based on lies to make private contractors incredibly wealthy. Let alone that that their is no (intentionally so) provision in the US Constitution for a standing Army (and defined limitations of conflicts) but only a domestic Navy to protect trade routes from pirates and states nothing about protecting 'freedom' abroad all while the US systematically becomes more an more of a surveillance-police State with ever more eroded Civil Rights and Liberties that are only rivaled in scope by the CCP, which is now he US' supposed Enemy #1 after all the pro-China rhetoric from the Obama/Biden administration years prior to now? You say you hate lies, and talk about principals but how do you contend with this very blatant contradiction that is clear to anyone who cares enough to pay attention within it and not want to hurl yourself out of a building? In my lifetime alone, the US went from a place where people took massive risks just to have a chance to be to a place where its own Citizen's will pay an exhorbarnt amount of money if they have it to leave because of this Imperial interventionism and the degrading quality of Life due to an over-inflated currency to finance these Corporate-led headlong excursions that lead no where but death and misery have made it not worth it.
TrackerFF 6y ago
It is also a more general behavior, observed when people are raised in extremely strict households. They can become very shy of conflicts, and start lying about the smallest things - stuff that regular people wouldn't think twice about lying. Basically - anything that could lead to some sort of conflict, they can lie about, just to avoid. Which is kind of ironic - as people often cite or view strict upbringing as something which will build character and "mature" kids for adult life. But then you see a lot of these kids end up becoming master liars.

fbelzile 6y ago

I've been through the Canadian equivalent of West Point and have done a week exchange at West Point. You're totally right about the experiment in human nature. Depending on which degree you were working on, there was often just way too much to do with the time given. The "academic wing" wouldn't coordinate with the "military wing" and we'd end up having a slew of inspections alongside midterms. I remember getting caught skipping out on military training on a Saturday (which was just a day of lectures, easy to slip out after attendance) to catch up on homework. At the same time, an officer went through the dorms to ensure nobody was skipping. I was caught in my room and spent the next two weeks having to wear an uncomfortable uniform all day and reporting to do drill every morning. Obviously, choosing to cheat academically is way worse than skipping a Saturday of lectures, but if the system is designed to break you, it shouldn't be impossible to recover from.

dak1 6y ago
It's almost expected you don't have enough time. When I was at West Point they'd explicitly state that. Additionally, there was a hard lights off policy at midnight to ensure cadets got enough sleep, yet people invariably would be up with a flashlight underneath their covers trying to get work done until 2am. Plebes in particular got less time as well, as they'd be subject to additional tasks/hazing until a given time when they couldn't be disturbed (I believe 7pm).
dr_orpheus 6y ago
I had a similar thought when I saw this that there may just be way too much to be working on. The two instances of widespread cheating that I have seen going through school were the results of: 1. There was absolutely way too much to do. Classes within a major did not coordinate large projects/tests and students tried to find a way to cope. 2. The teacher was so terrible that they felt vastly underprepared for an upcoming test.
nradov 6y ago
Giving students more work than they can reasonably accomplish is a good object lesson in ruthless prioritization and time management. In the real world you have to decide which tasks to do well and which to half-ass or just drop entirely. I didn't attend a military academy, but did go to an academically demanding college (with an honor code). Some of my fellow students were ridiculous in that they didn't know when to quit and tried to do all assignments perfectly even at the expense of having a social life or getting some exercise.
- silexia 6y ago
  Devil's Advocate - to carry the parent's analogy of ruthless lessons being taught to the grandparent's comment on don't get caught, Sun Tzu clammed that most military success is due to surprising the enemy with deception and tricks. It seems like it would be good to have a very strict honor code but also require impossible tasks to be done, thus forcing cadets to learn to be deceptive in the most effective way possible.
- powersnail 6y ago

chrisBob 6y ago

I am an '04 grad, and there has been some system of second chances for a while. I have a friend that started a year ahead of me who was a "turn back" for an honor violation. The violation was in her first year and they decided she was still adapting to the honor code when it happened. The result was 5 years at West Point where she had an in between rank of Cadet PFC for her second year. The idea of zero tolerance is a little crazy. Have you ever violated a software license, or streamed something with someone else's account? Those should technically be honor violations, but they aren't prosecuting those. It isn't 100% clear to me where to draw the line.

cies 6y ago
> The idea of zero tolerance is a little crazy. When laws are BS, ZT is not a little crazy: it's inhumane. > It isn't 100% clear to me where to draw the line. I feel that's the idea with BS laws: everyone is a criminal, so you can just dig for dirt on anyone and make them go away as law enforcement. What BS laws? Well all victimless crime for one. I dont mind some victimless behaviours are offenses (punishable with a fine), but a crime (punishable with jail time)?! That's IMHO a big part of why the law system is broken. We need the constitutional right not to be punished for victimless crime.
- rightbyte 6y ago
  > What BS laws? Well all victimless crime Reckless driving and child pornography comes to mind. It is crimes against the state atleast where I live.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    >Reckless driving and child pornography comes to mind. It is crimes against the state atleast where I live. Because teenagers getting air off the train track berm in their shitbox cars and sending nudes to each other definitely needs to be prosecuted like criminals <rolls eyes>. It's easy to call for zero tolerance in the abstract.
    - 6y ago

ssimpson 6y ago

My dad worked at USMA from ‘93 to ‘98 and I grew up around the Academy in high school. I always thought it was so cool how if say you left your calculator on the desk it would just sit there and people would work around it. I worked at Victor Constant as a patroller and had lots of fun hanging out with some of the Cadets that were in Ski Patrol as well.

dfxm12 6y ago

This is what happens when a perceived innocuous lie is seen a a life-ruiner. What penalty is there to breaking the honor code that it ruins one's life?

JKCalhoun 6y ago
Were they not expelled from West Point?
- dfxm12 6y ago
  The cadets referenced in the article? The article claims that most will probably not get expelled. In either case, can you explain further why getting expelled from West Point ruins one's life?
  - leroy_masochist 6y ago
    Does it really take that much imagination to understand how it could seem that way to someone who has, realistically, been organizing their life around getting into a service academy since they were 15ish years old?
  - albntomat0 6y ago
    Being expelled by a college makes it much more difficult to get into another
DFHippie 6y ago
"Hope-dasher" would be better.

dehrmann 6y ago

> It does take a little time to adjust to the honor code Is it this? > A cadet will not lie, cheat, or steal, or tolerate those who do. I'd hope we're not admitting cadets who make a habit of cheating and stealing before joining.

Melting_Harps 6y ago

> It does take a little time to adjust to the honor code, but among all the things learned at WP, this one stuck with me the most. I (and many of my friends) came to literally hate lying/cheating, and to disdain those who do. But there’s another route that is taken too — the opposite, where some cadets become very good at lying/cheating. Honest question: Don't you think that is systemic within the Military itself and is one of the trademarks of its so called culture? Which is why the State will go the lengths it will when things are leaked and given how Assange and Snowden are treated when they prove Intelligence agencies lied (supposedly crimes punishable with long term sentences) to Congress and the US Citizens? I come from a military family and the hypocrisy is suffocating, any time you even suggest what it really is (Empire) its like the scars from the kool-aid levels of indoctrination re-open and they leap to extremes about fictional forms of 'terrorism' to rationalize their existence with even more lies. I stopped talking about illegal interventionism by Imperial decree that violates the US Constitution (and their supposed sacred oath) long ago, as every conflict since WWII has not been declared by Congress. And most are Intelleence Agency led conflicts, that now last decades with no end in sigh based on lies to make private contractors incredibly wealthy. Let alone that that their is no (intentionally so) provision in the US Constitution for a standing Army (and defined limitations of conflicts) but only a domestic Navy to protect trade routes from pirates and states nothing about protecting 'freedom' abroad all while the US systematically becomes more an more of a surveillance-police State with ever more eroded Civil Rights and Liberties that are only rivaled in scope by the CCP, which is now he US' supposed Enemy #1 after all the pro-China rhetoric from the Obama/Biden administration years prior to now? You say you hate lies, and talk about principals but how do you contend with this very blatant contradiction that is clear to anyone who cares enough to pay attention within it and not want to hurl yourself out of a building? In my lifetime alone, the US went from a place where people took massive risks just to have a chance to be to a place where its own Citizen's will pay an exhorbarnt amount of money if they have it to leave because of this Imperial interventionism and the degrading quality of Life due to an over-inflated currency to finance these Corporate-led headlong excursions that lead no where but death and misery have made it not worth it.

TrackerFF 6y ago

It is also a more general behavior, observed when people are raised in extremely strict households. They can become very shy of conflicts, and start lying about the smallest things - stuff that regular people wouldn't think twice about lying. Basically - anything that could lead to some sort of conflict, they can lie about, just to avoid. Which is kind of ironic - as people often cite or view strict upbringing as something which will build character and "mature" kids for adult life. But then you see a lot of these kids end up becoming master liars.