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Early humans may have survived the harsh winters by hibernating
- contingencies 6y agoWhen I hired a car and traveled along the North Korean border circa 2005 the driver told me about how the NK villagers would, in recent memory, go up in to caves on the adjacent mountains in winter and basically lie there starving and dying in a group because their clothing and houses were so poor (no windows, no insulation) and the nearby land so denuded of firewood that they would otherwise freeze to death. The ones who survived were seen lying in the sun near the river in the spring awaiting the return of energy. I understand the first edible crops in the area are immature fern fronds which poke through the snow. According to the driver, the women would reportedly illegally cross the river to prostitute themselves in China before the winter to obtain rice to survive. It is likely these people have the same bone deformities.
- the_af 6y agoHow do you tell fact from fiction/propaganda in cases such as these? North Korea is so closed that almost everything that reaches us comes from its enemies or defectors. We want to believe the strangest things about that country. And sure, some of it must be real, but how can you tell? Did your driver personally witness this, or did someone tell him and he was simply spreading a rumor?
- linuxftw 6y agoHow do we know there even is a North Korea? Maybe it's completely fictional and one large propaganda operation?
- the_af 6y agoThat the country exists is not a controversial proposition. But when you hear bizarre claims, backed by no evidence but tenuous hearsay and no means of independent confirmation... I mean, surely some of it is true, but each single bizarre assertion must be considered with your skeptic hat firmly on.
- logicchains 6y ago>But when you hear bizarre claims It's hardly a bizarre claim if you've ever read an account of what life was like during the Great Leap Forward or the Holodomor.
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- macinjosh 6y agoCommunism is real.
- gatlin 6y agoHow is that relevant to the parent comment?
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- vinceguidry 6y agoIf he heard it from someone who lives there that’s not part of the state, that’s a way more reliable account than you’ll get from anywhere in the west.
- the_af 6y agoHe said it was a driver that took him along the North Korean border, not inside North Korea. I took this to mean the driver was South Korean. A North Korean driver with unsupervised access to a foreigner seems unlikely, doesn't it?
- mannykannot 6y agoNorth Korea also has a border with China (and a short one with Russia), and both some elements of the post, and facts on the ground, strongly suggest that this is the border being discussed. I would guess that the driver was Chinese rather than a North Korean defector, but living close enough to the border to either have observed some of the specific things mentioned, or to be in a community where these observations were commonplace.
- the_af 6y agoYou're right! I hadn't considered that this was the Chinese border and the driver was Chinese. Makes more sense. That said, examining this critically: how would someone from the other side of the border observe people going up the mountain, going inside caves, and falling to the ground and dying in droves? Did he go inside the caves himself and found the corpses, and if so, why? If he didn't, how did he know how many died? Did he count people going in and going out the caves? Did he conduct a census of North Korean villages beyond the border and saw a stark decline in population, and was the only possible explanation starvation in caves (vs, say, migration)? If this is something that's common knowledge in the driver's community, the question becomes how did this community come to "know" all of this.
- mannykannot 6y ago
- koheripbal 6y agoWhy would defector accounts be biased? They have little to gain by exaggerating their plight. ... and their accounts of starvation, extreme poverty, and harsh authoritarianism all support one another. Additionally, the number of NKers defectors in China is high - they aren't rare.
- the_af 6y ago> Why would defector accounts be biased? Experience with defectors from other countries, such as the former Soviet Union, shows they sometimes tell the truth, they sometimes tell false or exaggerated stories, and they sometimes tell half-truths. I don't know why North Korean defectors would be different. > and their accounts of starvation, extreme poverty, and harsh authoritarianism all support one another. This specific claim is about people going to die in droves to caves, not just about harsh authoritarianism or extreme poverty. That's why it must be considered skeptically -- because it seems just like the kind of thing we're prone to believing about North Korea given other news, but this is not enough to make it true. And once it gets repeated uncritically, it becomes the "common sense truth".
- mtnGoat 6y agoExcept going into caves is a valid survival strategy because caves are naturally warm. If you had no heat at the surface, going subterranean would make sense to sell warmth. They weren't going into caves to die, quite the contrary, they were going into the caves to survive.
- throwaway2245 6y ago> They have little to gain by exaggerating their plight. ... and their accounts of starvation, extreme poverty, and harsh authoritarianism all support one another. Defectors won't know any of this. It's expected that some would exaggerate unverifiable details, to ensure their safety. That wouldn't diminish what they actually went through.
- mattm 6y agoLook at Shin Dong-hyuk's story. I read his book "Escape from Camp 14" several years ago and then afterwards came to find out that a lot of it was misrepresented. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Dong-hyuk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Dong-hyuk
- philwelch 6y agoThis is exactly the argument that was used to dismiss evidence of the Holocaust and the Khmer Rouge genocides.
- sudosysgen 6y agoThis is true. However, it is also a hard fact that defectors often lie and exaggerate.
- matt-attack 6y agoAnd it would have been just as valid to question. The reason we all now know the Holocaust was real isn’t because we just decided to believe 2nd hand personal accounts, but because we have massive amounts of physical evidence.
- philwelch 6y agoIf the Allies had accepted the first-hand intelligence reports they received during the war rather than dismissing them because they seemed outrageous and improbable, they could have saved lives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilecki%27s_Report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilecki%27s_Report
- MathiasPius 6y agoAnd if the international community had been more critical of the US claims on the alleged weapons of mass destruction of Saddam Hussein, 2 decades of war and the deaths of millions could likely have been avoided. It's not as black and white as that, and I believe some measure of restraint is valuable when making decisions that can have unbounded consequences. Sometimes making the right decision eventually is better than making the wrong decision immediately.
- the_af 6y agoBut there was evidence afterwards of both atrocities, from multiple sources. And some things about the Holocaust turned out to be myths, for example that the Nazis regularly made soap out of the body fat of their Jewish victims, and similarly regularly made lampshades out of their skin. It sounds plausible, because the Nazis engaged in so many horrific acts that why not this, but this alone doesn't make it true (and it turns out, historians today don't think this was true -- not a regular practice, anyway). In order to criticize a dictatorship you don't need to uncritically believe everything bad said about them. Some of it will be false. Always be wary of particularly outrageous claims.
- stickfigure 6y agoReputable sources have widely reported that North Korean men on average measure several inches shorter than South Koreans, and many defectors come across the border with signs of malnutrition and intestinal parasites.
- the_af 6y agoI do believe the living conditions in North Korea must be harsh, particularly in rural areas, and that many North Koreans suffer malnutrition. Like you mentioned, there is outside confirmation of these facts.
- contingencies 6y agoSorry I was asleep (in China). Fair question. Well, the guy grew up on the border: he was talking to us in Chinese ... this was not a major touristy area, it was between the Japanese railway that comes down from Tonghua to Ji'an (Chinese side) and Manpo/만포시 (NK side) at https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/41.1369/126.1751 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/41.1369/126.1751 and the town of Changbaishan at https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/41.4239/128.1771 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/41.4239/128.1771. In this area you can literally look across in to North Korean villages and pillboxes, and in Changbaishan you can look across in to what I have read is allegedly the biggest NK town on the border. Along the way there is a failed attempt at building a train and the hills are denuded. Poverty is immediately evident. People are fishing with crap equipment because there is nothing else to do and they are hungry. Nobody has adequate clothing. I did not see glass. All the roads are dirt on the NK side. And so on.
- the_af 6y agoThanks for the honest reply! To be clear, I do not doubt the extreme poverty you describe.
- pampa 6y agoThat is almost like the decription from "The Three Body Problem" how the aliens in the three star system handled winter. I wonder if there is an asian folk tale that might be the basis for both.
- a9h74j 6y agoI have no recollection of the source, but I read in what I recall as a reasonable source the following: Many French peasants in the mid-late 1700's would mostly sleep through winters, arising to eat (IIRC). I don't recall a mention with this of frequent death, but it could have gone without mention. In a sense this is contemporary, compared to "early" humans, and possible to verify in the record.
- BurningFrog 6y agoSounds like regular fasting/starvation to me.
- surlyadopter 6y agoI read the same "fact"* in Graham Robb's 'The Discovery of France". *scare quotes because I've only seen one reference
- whythisnotthat 6y agopeople in sibiria used to do a similar thing called "lotska" although they wouldnt sleep completely through it because a fire was maintained afaik and once per day food and water was consumed. I always wondered what that does to your dreams and sense of reality, i know mine gets scewed easily.
- codesnik 6y ago"lotska" is not a russian word. It was probably "liozhka", ("process of lying for a long time"), if it is something to believe at all.
- whythisnotthat 6y agoInteresting, "lotska" is used in the source from the British Medical Journal from 1900 as linked in another comment, probably a translation from "liozhka". Sadly "A Practice closely akin to hibernation is said to be general among Russian peasants in the Pskov Government" seems to be all we have as of now for validation
- vfc1 6y agoI remember reading something like russian poor farmers that didn't have enough food for the winter to do this, it was called Lotska, which reported in scientific papers over 100 years ago - http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2010/03/curious-case-of-human-hibernation.html http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2010/03/curious-case-o... "At the first fall of snow the whole family gathers round the stove, lies down, ceases to wrestle with the problems of human existence, and quietly goes to sleep. Once a day every one wakes up to eat a piece of hard bread, of which an amount sufficient to last six months has providently been baked in the previous autumn. When the bread has been washed down with a draught of water, everyone goes to sleep again. The members of the family take it in turn to watch and keep the fire alight." But I don't find many reliable source about it. Does anyone if this is really true? It sounds hard to believe.
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- zikzak 6y agoWhile I doubt they did this for more than a few days at a time, I can totally see them doing this to help get through winters. I've had a couple of periods where I was flat broke and had food staples and a roof over my head but not much else in Canadian winter or two. That's essentially how I would pass a few days here and there to save money on food and expenses. I would sleep as much as possible, fast until around 8pm, and eat a cheap meal (e.g. bulk pasta and tomato sauce I made from marked down cans of tomato and froze), then back to bed. A lot of the time, if I couldn't sleep, I would read. This was pre internet and I didn't have a phone or tv. Days go by pretty fast like that (it was very, very cold out each time I did this and I had inadequate clothing for the weather so even a walk was not happening). Eventually, the next thing I had to do would come up and I'd get back to normal. For context, I worked in kitchens so work meant "free" food (my jobs paid very little) or a couple times I was in a cabin in the middle of nowhere waiting for the weather to clear so I could dig out and get my car in the road. Nice to do this when you have a good supply of stove wood and a good book.
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- dragonelite 6y agoIf i get a feeling i gained too much fat, i like to use fasting to get rid of it fast. Kinda surprised after 3~4 days of not eating i could still function perfectly most wouldn't even see a difference. Strength did take a bit of a hit tho like could only operate on like 90% of max. Never really went longer then 5 days, but I heard stories of people going complete 30 days without food consuming only water with some minerals and salt.
- SubGenius 6y agoSome people on the /r/fasting subreddit go on for 40+ days. I settled into intermittent fasting routine and stopped thinking about extended fasts. I might give it a try. 5 days is quite extreme too, for me anyway.
- dragonelite 6y agoIntermittent fasting is my go to regime to keep my weight stable, do it also because its just easy for me. I don't have to spend time or money to prepare or buy lunch or breakfast.
- eitland 6y agoFWIW the official world record is 382 days as far as I can see. From Wikipedia: Angus Barbieri's fast. Starting in June 1965, Scottish man Angus Barbieri (1939 – 7 September 1990) fasted for 382 days. He lived on tea, coffee, soda water and vitamins, living at home in Tayport, Scotland, and frequently visiting Maryfield Hospital for medical evaluation.
- inglor_cz 6y agoYes, Barbieri actually managed to stay reasonably slim for the rest of his life, which is not typical in patients who lost a lot of weight without surgery. But AFAIK the Guinness book no longer collects fasting records, because they do not want to promote anorexia.
- pdfernhout 6y ago
- tokai 6y agoI have long had the hunch that depression (and especially SAD) make sense from an evolutionary perspective as a sort of hibernation strategy. Common symptoms like lowered appetite and psychomotor retardation, coupled with the episodic nature of most depressive disorders, seems like a good fit for hibernating behaviour. Fascinating research. Would be very interesting if the conclusions could be supported by other dig sites.
- generalizations 6y agoI believe there is research that indicates you might be right. Don't have a link, though.
- hh3k0 6y ago> I have long had the hunch that depression (and especially SAD) make sense from an evolutionary perspective as a sort of hibernation strategy. Interesting, I've long had the hunch that an evolutionary purpose of depression could be to strengthen a tribe by weeding out individuals that are a burden to said tribe, as self-perceived burden seems to be closely linked to the disorder.
- dTal 6y agoThat doesn't float. Natural selection can never select for suicide to benefit the group, unless the group is genetically identical - such a trait simply isn't adaptive.
- nicoburns 6y agoNatural selection of whole group does make sense if they are genetically related (and you consider the fact that in addition to individual dying off, it is possible for whole groups to die off (over longer time scales))
- dwaltrip 6y agoKin selection: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin_selection https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin_selection I have no idea if it applies to depression. I don’t really buy the simple story from GP.
- yummypaint 6y agoThere have been isolated cases of modern humans surviving by hibernation, but almost always in association with some kind of serious injury that seems to trigger some deeply buried metabolic mechanisms. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/dec/21/japan.topstories3 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/dec/21/japan.topstori... There was some work around a decade ago into using precise concentrations of hydrogen sulfide to induce it deliberately.
- Blikkentrekker 6y agoSo is this about humans or about neanderthals? The article doesn't seem to be able to decide and it's not at all clear from it.
- Out_of_Characte 6y agoThis article is about evidence of neanderthals and their ancestors. However if nothing suggests that humans have lost such ability then its plausible that this technically still applies to humans as there isn't much evolutionary history between neanderthals and humans considering the implications.
- surlyadopter 6y agoThis is an interesting hypothesis, even though on first blush it seems obviously wrong. I'm glad the article was more nuanced than the headline. This reminded me of an interesting tidbit from Graham Robb's book 'The Discovery of France'. He mentions the pre-industrial peasantry (in some extremely rural areas) living in a similar manner. During the winter when there were stretches of time where it was too harsh to do any productive work, the peasants just stayed inside. Food/calories were scarce enough even in the best of times so activity was limited to wake up, eat a bit, sleep, repeat.
- xaedes 6y agoReminds me of the norse mythology cow Auðumbla: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Au%C3%B0umbla https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Au%C3%B0umbla " Gylfi asks what Auðumbla ate, and High says that she licked salty rime stones for sustenance. He recounts that Auðumbla once licked salts for three days, revealing Búri: The first day she licked free his hair, the second day his head, and the third day his entire body." Some pictures: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Ymer_dier_koen_%C3%98dhumble.jpg/440px-Ymer_dier_koen_%C3%98dhumble.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Ym... "The primordial being Ymir suckles at the udder of Auðumbla as she licks Búri out of the ice in a painting by Nicolai Abildgaard, 1790" https://imgur.com/a/x8AHWWv https://imgur.com/a/x8AHWWv https://www.svetlanas-galerie.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Nr.-152-3-Die-Kuh-Audhumbla-und-Gott-Buri.jpg https://www.svetlanas-galerie.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/...
- guerby 6y agoConnecting the dots: https://yellowstonebearworld.com/how-long-do-bears-hibernate https://yellowstonebearworld.com/how-long-do-bears-hibernate "Grizzly bears typically hibernate between five to seven months" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Barbieri%27s_fast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Barbieri%27s_fast "Scottish man Angus Barbieri (1939 – 7 September 1990) fasted for 382 days (...) 207 kg to 82 kg" That's 327g per day so a modern human need about 59kg of added fat to survive 6 monthes without eating or hibernating , while being fully able and functionnal in case some additional food can be found during the time. As an anecdote my longest fast was 8 days, and I recorded between 300 and 400g of weight loss per day. I was walking a few hours per day without any trouble, so no loss of physical energy.
- explorigin 6y ago> For 382 days ending on 11 July 1966, he consumed only vitamins, electrolytes, and zero-calorie beverages such as tea, coffee, and sparkling water, although he occasionally consumed small amounts of milk and/or sugar with the beverages, especially during the final weeks of the fast. That's an apples to oranges comparison with hibernation. Your body needs some vitamins to process body fat into energy.
- guerby 6y agoIt's unclear wether vitamins and electrolytes supplements were necessary or not during this fast. If you read the paper: https://pmj.bmj.com/content/postgradmedj/49/569/203.full.pdf https://pmj.bmj.com/content/postgradmedj/49/569/203.full.pdf It looks like supplements were not given continuously. I'm not an expert but some doctors on youtube point to studies which show stable levels of many things during extended fasting: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9374844/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9374844/ https://thefastingmethod.com/vitamins-and-calcium/ https://thefastingmethod.com/vitamins-and-calcium/ Fat, liver, kidney store lots of useful things. Some things like salt are easy to find all year anyway, they don't run away :).
- jart 6y agoWow a man lost 276 pounds by eating nothing for a year. It's amazing what the human body can do. He's also living proof that you really can't go wrong with dieting, if you're obese. Eating nothing is theoretically the worst diet possible (aside from maybe eating poison) so it's like it's like whatever crazy thing works for you, just do it.
- api 6y agoIf that’s the case it makes it more likely that hibernation for long duration space flight may be more achievable. The ability might not be too far outside our standard biological envelope. There are many long, slow, but low energy orbital trajectories between bodies in the solar system that take advantage of multiple gravity assists, etc. We currently use those for probes but plans to send humans places always aim for high energy fast trajectories for obvious reasons. This limits their payload and increases the cost. Hibernation would make these slow efficient paths viable. There are down to earth uses too, like sleeping while waiting for a critical donor organ to become available or for the time it takes to culture one from your stem cells.
- robocat 6y agoFast trajectories are also needed to reduce radiation risk. Slow trajectories would expose humans to too much radiation. https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/The_radiation_showstopper_for_Mars_exploration https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Ex...
- miga 6y agoIf humans were able to sleep that long at [reported 50 calories per hour](https://www.sleepfoundation.org/how-sleep-works/how-your-body-uses-calories-while-you-sleep https://www.sleepfoundation.org/how-sleep-works/how-your-bod...), that would give a three months energy expenditure of about 59kg of body fat ([at 7.7kJ/kg](https://www.quora.com/How-many-calories-are-in-1-kg-of-fat https://www.quora.com/How-many-calories-are-in-1-kg-of-fat)). However, I am not aware of any confirmation that sleeping so long is possible, and does not harm health. If there was indeed possibility to enter torpor in a controlled manner, that may be up to 88% energy saving, so only ~7kg of body fat would need to be used.
- vbezhenar 6y agoI don't think that this method is practical. You need to eat a lot of food to get 59 kg of body fat. It's easier to conserve that food and just eat it at winter. Food conservation was practically a solved problem for a long time, you just have to get that food in the first place. Those who die because of starvation usually did not have enough food to begin with (because of bad harvest, for example).
- ericbarrett 6y agoWouldn't it be more likely that such hibernation (if real) was during the 8-10 coldest weeks of the year (Dec-Jan depending on location)? That would make it on the order of ~23kg which is a much more reasonable amount of fat to store. Six months seems like a very long time for anywhere south of the Arctic Circle.
- hmahncke 6y ago“Early Riser” by Jasper Fforde is a great speculative fiction novel about hibernating humans. Hijinks ensue.
- joecool1029 6y agoEver since the last post on HN about insulating our bodies I got into researching hypothermia a bit. Princeton has a wonderful page on it containing many things I did not know[1]. One thing that struck me on this page as bizarre was this line: "at 90 degrees the body tries to move into hibernation" Surely that can't be right, we would have figured out practical use for this or at least observed it working in modern humans. Well, seems we have at least one case [2]. [1] https://www.princeton.edu/~oa/safety/hypocold.shtml https://www.princeton.edu/~oa/safety/hypocold.shtml [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/dec/21/japan.topstories3 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/dec/21/japan.topstori...
- EL_Loco 6y agoA bit off the main topic, but I've always wondered when we'll develop some sort of anesthesia/hibernation hybrid where when a person catches a disease that makes life uncomfortable or miserable, they would be put in suspension, similar to hibernation or general anesthesia, and reamin in that state until he or she is cured. For example, going through chemotherapy and radiotherapy, while unconscious, or even just dreaming, makes it way more appealing to me. I can think many, many other instances where this would be desirable.
- vbezhenar 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_coma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_coma ?
- EL_Loco 6y agoWell, induced coma has all sorts of problems and some potentially very dangerous or serious side effects. It would be something like that, but fully safe and with no negatives.
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- benibela 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics ?
- Raphmedia 6y ago> For example, going through chemotherapy and radiotherapy, while unconscious, or even just dreaming, makes it way more appealing to me. Not exactly what you are asking for, but: https://www.marijuanamoment.net/canada-will-let-terminally-ill-patients-use-psychedelic-mushrooms-for-end-of-life-care/ https://www.marijuanamoment.net/canada-will-let-terminally-i...
- pgt 6y agoI suspect bipolarity is a feature, not a bug. It probably helped humans survive hard winters north of the equator by keeping us "depressed" and indoors during the harsh winter months and hyperactive during the more temperate months to harvest resources. Same with SADS and post-partum depression: keeps you indoors to care for a baby and avoid contracting new diseases or falling pregnant shortly after.
- gumby 6y agoI read an analysis of French peasant life in the late 19th and early 20th century that said that this was how the winters were passed. Not literal hibernation on the physiological sense that bears undergo it, but packing into a hut and spending only a handful of hours a day awake, not talking. Since many of these poor households were still wealthy enough to have had animals I was always a bit dubious.
- aussiegreenie 6y agoWhen Napoleon was Empire he ordered a "mini-Doomsday" book audit. It was reported that French farmers during winter did not work and eat very little. This was about 1810.
- mtnGoat 6y agoExcept, bears don't hibernate, they go into torpor. Not the same. Can't we all just finally out that myth to rest?