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Toyota plans to be the first company to sell an EV with a solid-state battery

107 points by drocer88 6y ago

seibelj 6y ago
I assume the image at the top means the Supra will be converted to an electric!? I own a 2020 Supra and I've been concerned its value will tank if electric sports cars take over. It's a fantastic car with unbelievable price to performance, but this is clearly on the way out.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > I own a 2020 Supra and I've been concerned its value will tank if electric sports cars take over. It's a fantastic car with unbelievable price to performance, but this is clearly on the way out. Why'd you buy a re-badged BMW if you are worried about re-sale value and not just buy a MK4 Supra as an investment that holds its Toyota tax value as well as the Landcruisers have? EV is finally making even the non-believers aware that the paradigm shift is happening, what I fail to see is how well those ICE to EV conversions will be. Much of the excitement of a ICE is how it makes you feel from the sound to the vibration you feel, when its all dialed in its an inexplicable feeling that satisfies all 5 senses. You get none of that driving an EV, I did 1000 miles in a performance Model 3 when it first came out and while it was fun, and you have to have a different approach to driving a car with 100% torque at 0 RPM. The raw feeling of man and machine coming into one wasn't there at all, although it was a lot of fun to drive, which is why I'm giving up my collection of ICE stuff besides my first car and bike and getting a Cybertruck.
  - seibelj 6y ago
    I agree that the ICE rumbling is amazing. I’m genuinely concerned that as California (and eventually other states) ban ICE cars the entire infrastructure of repairs, sales, and eventually gas will collapse. It just seems like its days are numbered.
    - Melting_Harps 6y ago
      Japan just commited to stop producing them in ~2035 [0], that means all the assembly line for OEMs will also have to pivot, so getting parts will be incredbly hard. I'm a diehard Pajero/Montero fan and have owned several, but this year was my fixations swan song as I had to deal with the delays from COIVD but also the fact that after Nissan's acquisition of Mitsubishi meant its entire back catalog of parts were a liability and they stopped making them in Japan so they simply stopped producing them in any significant numbers for the vehicles still on the road. I can give you a long list of reasons of why that makes sense from a supply chain/logistics standpoint, but the short answer is this too will eventually happen to you car. I worked for BMW before, and its EV program was at best a plaything, but given the amount of progress made by Tesla and now Toyota I fear you may be in a situation where they simply stop producing parts and you'll have to buy broken chassis to just be able to maintain one. In other words, have your fun and keep it as a relic of the 20th Century, or sell it now and get some of you investment back. Get an LFA and keep low miles on it if you want to buy a Toyota that will rise in value if you want something other than a MK4 Supra, I think that will be worth way more in the future and probably sought out by Saudi Shieks as a plaything where gas will still be pennies. 0: https://www.autoblog.com/2020/12/03/japan-considers-ban-on-internal-combustion-cars/ https://www.autoblog.com/2020/12/03/japan-considers-ban-on-i...
      - seibelj 6y ago
        What electric sports car will be your first purchase, if and when you do so? Which make and (if exists so far) model?
        Melting_Harps 6y ago
        > What electric sports car will be your first purchase Disclaimer: I can't afford a Roadster II. I've had enough high HP cars and super sport bikes on the street to know they're a waste of time and energy 90% of the time. I'll take a Cybertruck and haul my car/bike (the only ones I'm keeping) to the track when I want to get that excitement back and use them to their full potential; both have amazing power/weight ratios that rival many modern'ish super cars--the bike will outrun a Ferrari Enzo in a straight and will embarrass one in the turns, don't ask me how I know. Perhaps I'll even buy a shifter kart before I buy another 'sports car' ICE or EV ever again. But, if I had to choose and money were no object it would definitely be the Plaid Version Roadster 2, I'm excited to see what Nissan comes out with (if they survive) but other than that not I'm really interested in EV sports cars for the street enough to care. I used to run the indoor K1 karts for fun and to keep fit and sharp in the off-season, and its just not the same.
  - elihu 6y ago
    > The raw feeling of man and machine coming into one wasn't there at all, although it was a lot of fun to drive, which is why I'm giving up my collection of ICE stuff besides my first car and bike and getting a Cybertruck. I wonder if this is more of a Telsa thing than an electric car thing? I test-drove a dual-motor model-3, and while the acceleration was very impressive, it felt kind of boring to drive in general. Not that I'm some automotive connoisseur, I've been mostly driving boring stick-shift Hondas for the last couple decades. (My current project is to convert a Mazda RX-8 I picked up cheap with a bad engine to electric. I thought about getting a Tesla model 3, but in the end it wasn't quite the car I wanted, and was more expensive than I wanted to pay, and too locked down. If I can get the RX-8 going, it'll have a lot less range and not any better in terms of storage space, but it should at least be fun to drive and I can configure it however I like.)
    - Melting_Harps 6y ago
      > My current project is to convert a Mazda RX-8 I And do what with it? I'm a Nissan guy, and only reason to ever get a Mazda was to be able to bounce a 13b/20b off redline on the track for the ~30k before it needed a rebuild, why would an EV RX8, arguable the least interesting of all the RX chassis be a good platform? I'm not trying to discourage you as I think it seems like a cool thing to play with if you have the time/money, but what adjustability would you have not found with a 13b/20b in it?
      - elihu 6y ago
        I wanted an electric car, to get away from having to buy gas. The rotary engine is the most interesting thing about the RX-8, but without it it's still an overall pretty good car, and there's a surplus of used RX-8s out there with about 100,000 miles that need an apex seal replacement at the least, which the owners are willing to unload very cheaply. I could have looked for an RX-7, but those seem to be a lot more expensive and harder to find, and besides I like the look of the RX-8. I also wanted modern safety features and a vehicle that's relatively new. The RX-7 is about 200 pounds lighter, but it's also a 2-seater so less room to haul stuff. (Mazda also made a rotary pickup which would also be an awesome conversion, but those are much rarer.) Really, the main decision point for me was whether to get an RX-8, or go with a Miata, which is about a thousand pounds lighter. In some ways, the Miata might have been a better choice, but I live in a rainy climate and sometimes want to transport large objects. Also, used Miatas tend to be either thirty years old or expensive, so I went with the RX-8. As for what I'll do with it? Mostly just use it to get around town, like any other car. I've never owned anything that one could plausibly describe as a "sports car", and I don't know if I'll do any stereotypical sports car things like drive it up and down windy roads or take it to a track. It should at least perform decently. The motor I'm putting in it is about 120 HP, which is a lot less than the 230 or so HP that the rotary could put out, but the torque is about the same and I get full torque from 0 rpm. I'm keeping the 6-speed and clutch, so that should go a long way towards not needing a super-powerful motor. The hard part of the project so far has been building the battery enclosures for about 450 pounds of LiFePO4 cells, a little over half of which go in the engine compartment, and the rest go under the car where the gas tank was. It'll be a little heavier and probably have the weight a little forward of where it was originally, but it should be at least close. Tl;dr: RX-8s are really cheap if you don't need a working engine, and if you're going to convert a sedan you might as well go with something with something more fun than a Toyota Corolla or whatever.
- ohazi 6y ago
  > I own a [car] > and I've been concerned its value will tank A car is a depreciating asset.
  - seibelj 6y ago
    There is a difference between $10k multiples and outlawed for gas guzzling
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      The car you already own is not going to get outlawed.
- sleepydog 6y ago
  I had no idea they were still making Supras, I thought that line died with the 96-98 models. Is it still a straight-6?
  - seibelj 6y ago
    Full review here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4oC8cvUb0kI&feature=youtu.be https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4oC8cvUb0kI&feature=youtu.be
    - sleepydog 6y ago
      Thanks! I have to say I prefer the classic look of the Mk4 supra, this one looks really aggressive.
  - gkanai 6y ago
    Yes- it is a joint development with BMW, who developed the engine. So if you want a hardtop, get the Supra, if you want a convertible, BMW sells the same vehicle as the Z4.
SwagityMcSwag 6y ago
What does this mean for Tesla?
sien 6y ago
What happens to Tesla if this works as promised?
- refulgentis 6y ago
  TL;DR: Tesla has no IP or differentiation available _currently_, and has a billion dollar plant in Buffalo idling with Panasonic completely pulling out, and in 2020, just hitting the demand Musk predicted for 2018, 500K/year. The advantage they have is _at least they're on the road_, but, it's going to be tough even going in as the incumbent against a breakthrough and true differentiator like this - if Elon was 100% sober and on point on Battery Day, they still have a shot of not getting _too_ far behind for 3-5 years. But they'll need to figure out how to get to solid state long term without the associated IP or research. :/ nostradamus at this point, don't take it literally, but seriously: You can imagine they'd start looking like Blackberry - niche success among affluent users, ultimately, a stepping stone to the iPhone that'll revolutionize the industry wide, and hopefully Waymo decides to build 1P cars by 2030 and buys out Tesla for $80 billion.
- XorNot 6y ago
  Tesla's current insane valuation crashes, and the company probably folds too. They're heavily invested in Li-Ion's production chain, and this would essentially go right around that. It's always seemed clear to me that what would kill Tesla dead is Toyota moving into EVs in a big way - the reputation alone would carry them for a good long while.
  - pfarnsworth 6y ago
    Tesla has $20B warchest, I think they'll be fine.
  - dhnajsjdnd 6y ago
    Tesla’s valuation, while insane, has allowed them to raise a ton of cash. So even if the stock tanks, the company is unlikely to go anywhere.
- acomjean 6y ago
  It would be bad. But honestly Battery Tech to me is "I'll believe it when I see it". Lots of tech isn't a durable or as manufacturable as companies hope. Lab->product is difficult.
vlovich123 6y ago
This article reads like hype and totally devoid of content. [1] from earlier in the year indicates this isn’t targeting production for another five years at least so I’m skeptical anything has really changed (it also makes nissan’s 2028 entry less late to the game) [1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.caranddriver.com/news/amp33435923/toyota-solid-state-battery-2025/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.caranddriver.com/news/amp33...
Twirrim 6y ago
> The electric vehicles being developed by Toyota will have a range more than twice the distance of a vehicle running on a conventional lithium-ion battery under the same conditions 500km = 310 miles. That's not even remotely twice the range of a Tesla. Heck, it's not even that much more than my Chevrolet Bolt gets. Everything else about this sounds great, especially the charge times. That takes a lot out of the hassles of a long distance trip in an electric car. ~250 miles is a fine point for getting out, taking a restroom break, stretching legs etc. Get back and the car is all topped up? Sounds perfect. The main problem here is that it's still dependent on Lithium, and we've really got to get off that.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  "twice" is probably a reference to some measure of energy density.
- cmroanirgo 6y ago
  Just to clarify that the solid-state battery still uses Lithium (but not Lithium-Ion): the article states: > The electric vehicles being developed by Toyota will have a range more than twice the distance of a vehicle running on a conventional lithium-ion battery under the same conditions and > Because solid-state batteries use lithium, an element with limited global reserves, the government will assist in procuring the material. It seems that Lithium will be the next oil crisis, especially if governments will be directly involved in the procurement...and I agree with parent, we must do better than Lithium. Perhaps good 'ol Hydrogen? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP-ZPM0nKkk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP-ZPM0nKkk)
  - gonzo41 6y ago
    It really won't Western Australia just needs to get intersted in mining Lithium and there will be enough over the longer term.
  - mulmen 6y ago
    I'm not so sure. Hydrogen is a consumable but lithium isn't. I asked in another comment but what's the closed-loop story with lithium batteries?
rtlfe 6y ago
How does this compare to existing batteries for environmental impact?
conk 6y ago
I don’t see how any car battery charges in 10 minutes. Assuming a 75 kWh battery in the car, charging in 10 minute means providing 450,000 watts for 10 minutes. At 1000V (higher than any DC charger today) would require 450 amps of current. The wire needed to provide 450A would be unmanageable for a car charger. And this is all assuming 100% efficiency, when in reality there will be various losses from charger to battery. Battery tech aside, how does any auto maker plan to get 10 minute charge time when just getting they much power through a cable is a huge challenge.
- koolba 6y ago
  Why can’t you have N cables supplying power to N cells in parallel?
  - Afforess 6y ago
    heat dissipation. "charging" a battery is an exothermic chemical reaction.
    - Retric 6y ago
      Air can remove a lot of heat. A 98% efficient battery charging at 400kw is only producing 8kw of waste heat. At most you need a modest radiator and some fans. By comparison a normal 200HP engine at 30% efficiency is producing 667kw of waste heat into the air with a tiny percentage of that going out the exhaust pipe.
      - alacombe 6y ago
        Air is a pretty bad thermal conductor. An average ICE is only producing 200HP at a specific RPM, for short period of time. Red-lining any sedan while being stationary will probably overheat the engine pretty quickly, as the on-board radiator fan either electric or mechanical will not provide enough airflow. They are designed to be cooled by incoming air while driving.
        6y ago
elihu 6y ago
Kind of light on details; what chemistry? What's the watt hours per kilogram they're expecting to get? Is Toyota pursuing a particular research path that is releasing its findings to the public yet, or is it all a closely-held secret? A full recharge in 10 minutes means it will be charging at 6C, which is impressive. I'm not a battery expert, but in a few years I guess their main competition will be whatever Tesla manages to accomplish with lithium ion (assuming they don't switch to something completely new), and lithium sulfur if someone figures out how to manufacture it in a way that's durable and cheap. Maybe there are other promising alternatives I'm not aware of (possibly including other solid state chemistries).
- clouddrover 6y ago
  QuantumScape's solid-state battery looks promising: https://electrek.co/2020/12/08/tesla-co-founder-jb-straubel-quantumscape-new-fast-charging-battery-major-breakthrough/ https://electrek.co/2020/12/08/tesla-co-founder-jb-straubel-... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGnPSkXKb0I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGnPSkXKb0I Volkswagen will be using it eventually.
  - nickik 6y ago
    I think SolidPower is actually more interesting, and they don't have a 25 billion $ valuation and are much less prone to hype up their product to boost the stock price.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
darth_avocado 6y ago
Nice coolaid we got here. Anyone ever wonder if Solid state batteries were that awesome, why don't we have them in our smartphones, let alone our cars? Well because they are ridiculously expensive to make. Good luck getting even remotely close to the Tesla price range using a solid state battery in the next decade.
- threeseed 6y ago
  > Anyone ever wonder if {{ new technology }} were that awesome, why don't we have them in our {{ product }}. The reason is because sometimes new technologies takes a while to develop and commercialise. But the same argument could have been made about solar power, batteries, smartphones etc. a decade or two ago and now they are changing the world.
  - darth_avocado 6y ago
    I think you missed my point. I'm saying that solid state batteries are decades out to be commercially viable. And one indicator of how far out is their lack of existence in day to day items like phones. The reason why you want to pay attention to that is because for batteries, big batteries are just small batteries joined together. So if you don't even have a small battery, like in a phone, on a commercial level, the big ones, like for an EV, are nowhere near mass commercialization. Sure you can make a couple of cars a year and sell them for 200k, but that's nowhere near the rosy picture the article posts. My bet, we don't see any mass commercialization in this decade.
kazinator 6y ago
Solid-state means based on some kind of crystal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_physics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_physics It is not opposite to "aqueous". E.g. "solid state relay" is a silicon alternative to an electromagnet moving a switch, both of which are devoid of liquid.
Osiris30 6y ago
Related discussion on QuantumScape’s solid-state news earlier this week: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25376124 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25376124
pugworthy 6y ago
New battery tech is like fusion - except we don't have to wait 15 years every year.
gbh444g 6y ago
Wait until humans figure how to burn lithium by adding some special acid. I'm only half kidding, because if that reaction absorbs CO2, everybody will forget about "charging" lithium.
syntaxing 6y ago
The most important part of this article in my opinion is the Japanese government involvement. Not sure why but Japan has a tendency to fulfill their promises given that their government really wants it to happen (forget about cars, just look at ACs and pneumatics). Maybe because their engineering culture is heavily data driven that gives them the advantage (at a price of execution speed)?
pmcollins 6y ago
according to this other article: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33435923/toyota-solid-state-battery-2025/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33435923/toyota-solid-sta... toyota has a solid state battery that has a low cycle lifetime. it sounds like they need a breakthrough, thus the tentative, low volume production target for 2025.
rmykhajliw 6y ago
Nope, this doesn't work at all. Early prototypes starts in 2028. Charging requires 1000A and 15kV. It's only marketing bullshit which doesn't' have any ground in reality.
blackrock 6y ago
> Solid-state batteries are expected to become a viable alternative to lithium-ion batteries that use aqueous electrolyte solutions > Because solid-state batteries use lithium So this new solid state battery from Toyota will still use lithium. I guess it’s not common knowledge that lithium-ion is not a solid state battery. But rather, it is a liquid solution.
w0mbat 6y ago
It's nice to see Toyota putting some effort into electric car tech at last. They got this early lead with hybrid tech leading to the Prius, did some plug-in hybrids, but never went for it with a mainstream EV. The only pure EVs I saw were limited run versions of the RAV4. Meanwhile they wasted a lot of time on hydrogen, which was never the way forward.

107 points by drocer88 6y ago

I assume the image at the top means the Supra will be converted to an electric!? I own a 2020 Supra and I've been concerned its value will tank if electric sports cars take over. It's a fantastic car with unbelievable price to performance, but this is clearly on the way out.

Melting_Harps 6y ago
> I own a 2020 Supra and I've been concerned its value will tank if electric sports cars take over. It's a fantastic car with unbelievable price to performance, but this is clearly on the way out. Why'd you buy a re-badged BMW if you are worried about re-sale value and not just buy a MK4 Supra as an investment that holds its Toyota tax value as well as the Landcruisers have? EV is finally making even the non-believers aware that the paradigm shift is happening, what I fail to see is how well those ICE to EV conversions will be. Much of the excitement of a ICE is how it makes you feel from the sound to the vibration you feel, when its all dialed in its an inexplicable feeling that satisfies all 5 senses. You get none of that driving an EV, I did 1000 miles in a performance Model 3 when it first came out and while it was fun, and you have to have a different approach to driving a car with 100% torque at 0 RPM. The raw feeling of man and machine coming into one wasn't there at all, although it was a lot of fun to drive, which is why I'm giving up my collection of ICE stuff besides my first car and bike and getting a Cybertruck.
- seibelj 6y ago
  I agree that the ICE rumbling is amazing. I’m genuinely concerned that as California (and eventually other states) ban ICE cars the entire infrastructure of repairs, sales, and eventually gas will collapse. It just seems like its days are numbered.
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago
    Japan just commited to stop producing them in ~2035 [0], that means all the assembly line for OEMs will also have to pivot, so getting parts will be incredbly hard. I'm a diehard Pajero/Montero fan and have owned several, but this year was my fixations swan song as I had to deal with the delays from COIVD but also the fact that after Nissan's acquisition of Mitsubishi meant its entire back catalog of parts were a liability and they stopped making them in Japan so they simply stopped producing them in any significant numbers for the vehicles still on the road. I can give you a long list of reasons of why that makes sense from a supply chain/logistics standpoint, but the short answer is this too will eventually happen to you car. I worked for BMW before, and its EV program was at best a plaything, but given the amount of progress made by Tesla and now Toyota I fear you may be in a situation where they simply stop producing parts and you'll have to buy broken chassis to just be able to maintain one. In other words, have your fun and keep it as a relic of the 20th Century, or sell it now and get some of you investment back. Get an LFA and keep low miles on it if you want to buy a Toyota that will rise in value if you want something other than a MK4 Supra, I think that will be worth way more in the future and probably sought out by Saudi Shieks as a plaything where gas will still be pennies. 0: https://www.autoblog.com/2020/12/03/japan-considers-ban-on-internal-combustion-cars/ https://www.autoblog.com/2020/12/03/japan-considers-ban-on-i...
    - seibelj 6y ago
      What electric sports car will be your first purchase, if and when you do so? Which make and (if exists so far) model?
      - Melting_Harps 6y ago
        > What electric sports car will be your first purchase Disclaimer: I can't afford a Roadster II. I've had enough high HP cars and super sport bikes on the street to know they're a waste of time and energy 90% of the time. I'll take a Cybertruck and haul my car/bike (the only ones I'm keeping) to the track when I want to get that excitement back and use them to their full potential; both have amazing power/weight ratios that rival many modern'ish super cars--the bike will outrun a Ferrari Enzo in a straight and will embarrass one in the turns, don't ask me how I know. Perhaps I'll even buy a shifter kart before I buy another 'sports car' ICE or EV ever again. But, if I had to choose and money were no object it would definitely be the Plaid Version Roadster 2, I'm excited to see what Nissan comes out with (if they survive) but other than that not I'm really interested in EV sports cars for the street enough to care. I used to run the indoor K1 karts for fun and to keep fit and sharp in the off-season, and its just not the same.
- elihu 6y ago
  > The raw feeling of man and machine coming into one wasn't there at all, although it was a lot of fun to drive, which is why I'm giving up my collection of ICE stuff besides my first car and bike and getting a Cybertruck. I wonder if this is more of a Telsa thing than an electric car thing? I test-drove a dual-motor model-3, and while the acceleration was very impressive, it felt kind of boring to drive in general. Not that I'm some automotive connoisseur, I've been mostly driving boring stick-shift Hondas for the last couple decades. (My current project is to convert a Mazda RX-8 I picked up cheap with a bad engine to electric. I thought about getting a Tesla model 3, but in the end it wasn't quite the car I wanted, and was more expensive than I wanted to pay, and too locked down. If I can get the RX-8 going, it'll have a lot less range and not any better in terms of storage space, but it should at least be fun to drive and I can configure it however I like.)
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago
    > My current project is to convert a Mazda RX-8 I And do what with it? I'm a Nissan guy, and only reason to ever get a Mazda was to be able to bounce a 13b/20b off redline on the track for the ~30k before it needed a rebuild, why would an EV RX8, arguable the least interesting of all the RX chassis be a good platform? I'm not trying to discourage you as I think it seems like a cool thing to play with if you have the time/money, but what adjustability would you have not found with a 13b/20b in it?
    - elihu 6y ago
      I wanted an electric car, to get away from having to buy gas. The rotary engine is the most interesting thing about the RX-8, but without it it's still an overall pretty good car, and there's a surplus of used RX-8s out there with about 100,000 miles that need an apex seal replacement at the least, which the owners are willing to unload very cheaply. I could have looked for an RX-7, but those seem to be a lot more expensive and harder to find, and besides I like the look of the RX-8. I also wanted modern safety features and a vehicle that's relatively new. The RX-7 is about 200 pounds lighter, but it's also a 2-seater so less room to haul stuff. (Mazda also made a rotary pickup which would also be an awesome conversion, but those are much rarer.) Really, the main decision point for me was whether to get an RX-8, or go with a Miata, which is about a thousand pounds lighter. In some ways, the Miata might have been a better choice, but I live in a rainy climate and sometimes want to transport large objects. Also, used Miatas tend to be either thirty years old or expensive, so I went with the RX-8. As for what I'll do with it? Mostly just use it to get around town, like any other car. I've never owned anything that one could plausibly describe as a "sports car", and I don't know if I'll do any stereotypical sports car things like drive it up and down windy roads or take it to a track. It should at least perform decently. The motor I'm putting in it is about 120 HP, which is a lot less than the 230 or so HP that the rotary could put out, but the torque is about the same and I get full torque from 0 rpm. I'm keeping the 6-speed and clutch, so that should go a long way towards not needing a super-powerful motor. The hard part of the project so far has been building the battery enclosures for about 450 pounds of LiFePO4 cells, a little over half of which go in the engine compartment, and the rest go under the car where the gas tank was. It'll be a little heavier and probably have the weight a little forward of where it was originally, but it should be at least close. Tl;dr: RX-8s are really cheap if you don't need a working engine, and if you're going to convert a sedan you might as well go with something with something more fun than a Toyota Corolla or whatever.
ohazi 6y ago
> I own a [car] > and I've been concerned its value will tank A car is a depreciating asset.
- seibelj 6y ago
  There is a difference between $10k multiples and outlawed for gas guzzling
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    The car you already own is not going to get outlawed.
sleepydog 6y ago
I had no idea they were still making Supras, I thought that line died with the 96-98 models. Is it still a straight-6?
- seibelj 6y ago
  Full review here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4oC8cvUb0kI&feature=youtu.be https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4oC8cvUb0kI&feature=youtu.be
  - sleepydog 6y ago
    Thanks! I have to say I prefer the classic look of the Mk4 supra, this one looks really aggressive.
- gkanai 6y ago
  Yes- it is a joint development with BMW, who developed the engine. So if you want a hardtop, get the Supra, if you want a convertible, BMW sells the same vehicle as the Z4.

SwagityMcSwag 6y ago

What does this mean for Tesla?

sien 6y ago

What happens to Tesla if this works as promised?

refulgentis 6y ago
TL;DR: Tesla has no IP or differentiation available _currently_, and has a billion dollar plant in Buffalo idling with Panasonic completely pulling out, and in 2020, just hitting the demand Musk predicted for 2018, 500K/year. The advantage they have is _at least they're on the road_, but, it's going to be tough even going in as the incumbent against a breakthrough and true differentiator like this - if Elon was 100% sober and on point on Battery Day, they still have a shot of not getting _too_ far behind for 3-5 years. But they'll need to figure out how to get to solid state long term without the associated IP or research. :/ nostradamus at this point, don't take it literally, but seriously: You can imagine they'd start looking like Blackberry - niche success among affluent users, ultimately, a stepping stone to the iPhone that'll revolutionize the industry wide, and hopefully Waymo decides to build 1P cars by 2030 and buys out Tesla for $80 billion.
XorNot 6y ago
Tesla's current insane valuation crashes, and the company probably folds too. They're heavily invested in Li-Ion's production chain, and this would essentially go right around that. It's always seemed clear to me that what would kill Tesla dead is Toyota moving into EVs in a big way - the reputation alone would carry them for a good long while.
- pfarnsworth 6y ago
  Tesla has $20B warchest, I think they'll be fine.
- dhnajsjdnd 6y ago
  Tesla’s valuation, while insane, has allowed them to raise a ton of cash. So even if the stock tanks, the company is unlikely to go anywhere.
acomjean 6y ago
It would be bad. But honestly Battery Tech to me is "I'll believe it when I see it". Lots of tech isn't a durable or as manufacturable as companies hope. Lab->product is difficult.

vlovich123 6y ago

This article reads like hype and totally devoid of content. [1] from earlier in the year indicates this isn’t targeting production for another five years at least so I’m skeptical anything has really changed (it also makes nissan’s 2028 entry less late to the game) [1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.caranddriver.com/news/amp33435923/toyota-solid-state-battery-2025/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.caranddriver.com/news/amp33...

Twirrim 6y ago

> The electric vehicles being developed by Toyota will have a range more than twice the distance of a vehicle running on a conventional lithium-ion battery under the same conditions 500km = 310 miles. That's not even remotely twice the range of a Tesla. Heck, it's not even that much more than my Chevrolet Bolt gets. Everything else about this sounds great, especially the charge times. That takes a lot out of the hassles of a long distance trip in an electric car. ~250 miles is a fine point for getting out, taking a restroom break, stretching legs etc. Get back and the car is all topped up? Sounds perfect. The main problem here is that it's still dependent on Lithium, and we've really got to get off that.

maxerickson 6y ago
"twice" is probably a reference to some measure of energy density.
cmroanirgo 6y ago
Just to clarify that the solid-state battery still uses Lithium (but not Lithium-Ion): the article states: > The electric vehicles being developed by Toyota will have a range more than twice the distance of a vehicle running on a conventional lithium-ion battery under the same conditions and > Because solid-state batteries use lithium, an element with limited global reserves, the government will assist in procuring the material. It seems that Lithium will be the next oil crisis, especially if governments will be directly involved in the procurement...and I agree with parent, we must do better than Lithium. Perhaps good 'ol Hydrogen? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP-ZPM0nKkk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP-ZPM0nKkk)
- gonzo41 6y ago
  It really won't Western Australia just needs to get intersted in mining Lithium and there will be enough over the longer term.
- mulmen 6y ago
  I'm not so sure. Hydrogen is a consumable but lithium isn't. I asked in another comment but what's the closed-loop story with lithium batteries?

rtlfe 6y ago

How does this compare to existing batteries for environmental impact?

conk 6y ago

I don’t see how any car battery charges in 10 minutes. Assuming a 75 kWh battery in the car, charging in 10 minute means providing 450,000 watts for 10 minutes. At 1000V (higher than any DC charger today) would require 450 amps of current. The wire needed to provide 450A would be unmanageable for a car charger. And this is all assuming 100% efficiency, when in reality there will be various losses from charger to battery. Battery tech aside, how does any auto maker plan to get 10 minute charge time when just getting they much power through a cable is a huge challenge.

koolba 6y ago
Why can’t you have N cables supplying power to N cells in parallel?
- Afforess 6y ago
  heat dissipation. "charging" a battery is an exothermic chemical reaction.
  - Retric 6y ago
    Air can remove a lot of heat. A 98% efficient battery charging at 400kw is only producing 8kw of waste heat. At most you need a modest radiator and some fans. By comparison a normal 200HP engine at 30% efficiency is producing 667kw of waste heat into the air with a tiny percentage of that going out the exhaust pipe.
    - alacombe 6y ago
      Air is a pretty bad thermal conductor. An average ICE is only producing 200HP at a specific RPM, for short period of time. Red-lining any sedan while being stationary will probably overheat the engine pretty quickly, as the on-board radiator fan either electric or mechanical will not provide enough airflow. They are designed to be cooled by incoming air while driving.
      - 6y ago

elihu 6y ago

Kind of light on details; what chemistry? What's the watt hours per kilogram they're expecting to get? Is Toyota pursuing a particular research path that is releasing its findings to the public yet, or is it all a closely-held secret? A full recharge in 10 minutes means it will be charging at 6C, which is impressive. I'm not a battery expert, but in a few years I guess their main competition will be whatever Tesla manages to accomplish with lithium ion (assuming they don't switch to something completely new), and lithium sulfur if someone figures out how to manufacture it in a way that's durable and cheap. Maybe there are other promising alternatives I'm not aware of (possibly including other solid state chemistries).

clouddrover 6y ago
QuantumScape's solid-state battery looks promising: https://electrek.co/2020/12/08/tesla-co-founder-jb-straubel-quantumscape-new-fast-charging-battery-major-breakthrough/ https://electrek.co/2020/12/08/tesla-co-founder-jb-straubel-... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGnPSkXKb0I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGnPSkXKb0I Volkswagen will be using it eventually.
- nickik 6y ago
  I think SolidPower is actually more interesting, and they don't have a 25 billion $ valuation and are much less prone to hype up their product to boost the stock price.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

darth_avocado 6y ago

Nice coolaid we got here. Anyone ever wonder if Solid state batteries were that awesome, why don't we have them in our smartphones, let alone our cars? Well because they are ridiculously expensive to make. Good luck getting even remotely close to the Tesla price range using a solid state battery in the next decade.

threeseed 6y ago
> Anyone ever wonder if {{ new technology }} were that awesome, why don't we have them in our {{ product }}. The reason is because sometimes new technologies takes a while to develop and commercialise. But the same argument could have been made about solar power, batteries, smartphones etc. a decade or two ago and now they are changing the world.
- darth_avocado 6y ago
  I think you missed my point. I'm saying that solid state batteries are decades out to be commercially viable. And one indicator of how far out is their lack of existence in day to day items like phones. The reason why you want to pay attention to that is because for batteries, big batteries are just small batteries joined together. So if you don't even have a small battery, like in a phone, on a commercial level, the big ones, like for an EV, are nowhere near mass commercialization. Sure you can make a couple of cars a year and sell them for 200k, but that's nowhere near the rosy picture the article posts. My bet, we don't see any mass commercialization in this decade.

kazinator 6y ago

Solid-state means based on some kind of crystal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_physics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_physics It is not opposite to "aqueous". E.g. "solid state relay" is a silicon alternative to an electromagnet moving a switch, both of which are devoid of liquid.

Osiris30 6y ago

Related discussion on QuantumScape’s solid-state news earlier this week: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25376124 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25376124

pugworthy 6y ago

New battery tech is like fusion - except we don't have to wait 15 years every year.

gbh444g 6y ago

Wait until humans figure how to burn lithium by adding some special acid. I'm only half kidding, because if that reaction absorbs CO2, everybody will forget about "charging" lithium.

syntaxing 6y ago

The most important part of this article in my opinion is the Japanese government involvement. Not sure why but Japan has a tendency to fulfill their promises given that their government really wants it to happen (forget about cars, just look at ACs and pneumatics). Maybe because their engineering culture is heavily data driven that gives them the advantage (at a price of execution speed)?

pmcollins 6y ago

according to this other article: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33435923/toyota-solid-state-battery-2025/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33435923/toyota-solid-sta... toyota has a solid state battery that has a low cycle lifetime. it sounds like they need a breakthrough, thus the tentative, low volume production target for 2025.

rmykhajliw 6y ago

Nope, this doesn't work at all. Early prototypes starts in 2028. Charging requires 1000A and 15kV. It's only marketing bullshit which doesn't' have any ground in reality.

blackrock 6y ago

> Solid-state batteries are expected to become a viable alternative to lithium-ion batteries that use aqueous electrolyte solutions > Because solid-state batteries use lithium So this new solid state battery from Toyota will still use lithium. I guess it’s not common knowledge that lithium-ion is not a solid state battery. But rather, it is a liquid solution.

w0mbat 6y ago

It's nice to see Toyota putting some effort into electric car tech at last. They got this early lead with hybrid tech leading to the Prius, did some plug-in hybrids, but never went for it with a mainstream EV. The only pure EVs I saw were limited run versions of the RAV4. Meanwhile they wasted a lot of time on hydrogen, which was never the way forward.