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Pretty interesting to see this move makes people so salty. There does seem to be a trend of people fleeing California, I dont know enough about the situation ou
by S_A_P 6y ago
Pretty interesting to see this move makes people so salty. There does seem to be a trend of people fleeing California, I dont know enough about the situation out there to comment on whether or not its valid. I suspect something must be going on for several high profile folks moving out. And before you bash Texas, its not perfect. But its pretty diverse, and it seems that folks with opposing viewpoints can still coexist here. I like that...
- chadlavi 6y agoIt's a tax dodge.
- ourcat 6y agoYou probably get far more for your money though. (Property/land-wise) I also remember reading stories years ago about CA/SV businesses that had offices up in Colorado as a back-up for when 'The Big One' hits.
- JKCalhoun 6y agoYes, ironically property taxes are much higher in Texas than California. And toll roads, etc... In short, the money has to come from somewhere — if not from income tax then it will be from somewhere else.
- jdhn 6y ago>ironically property taxes are much higher in Texas than California. The rate may be higher, but the total paid will probably be less.
- hnburnsy 6y agoState/Median property tax rate/Median property tax CA/0.74%/$2839 TX/1.8%/$2275 Source: http://www.tax-rates.org/california/property-tax http://www.tax-rates.org/california/property-tax
- novok 6y agoThanks to not having a prop 13 low prop tax house, my prop tax rate was effectively 1.5% in california. Prop tax is cheap in CA, if you're old!
- wavefunction 6y agoHe can just stick a few livestock on a corner of his property and get an Agriculture exemption.
- JKCalhoun 6y agoI thought you had to be "grandfathered" (poor word choice, I know) into that.
- wavefunction 6y agoI think as long as you have enough acreage you can qualify. Texas privileges wealth so I imagine he can gain the privilege if it's limited as you've described.
- missedthecue 6y agoA 2% tax rate on a home in Texas is much less in dollar terms than a 1% tax rate on a home of equivalent size in California
- somethoughts 6y agoThe challenge is if you need to work in tech and eventually need to commute daily/weekly to headquarters. You'll need to be within 30 minutes of Austin if you want to be in new tech (Apple, Google) or 30 minutes of Dallas/Houston if you are okay with legacy tech (HP, IBM). And you'll want to be in a good school district with like minded high income folks with restaurants options. You'll likely be paying close at best the equivalent of Silicon Valley housing.
- GhettoChild 6y agoNot at all.
- somethoughts 6y agoCasually surfing around Austin's future Apple headquarters on Redfin, for a Single Family with school ranking scores above 7-8 , I'm seeing 1M+?
- GhettoChild 6y agoProperty Tax rates are higher in Texas. But there is no major city in California near a job center where I am able to get a nice move in ready home for 250k. A comparable home to that house that is 250k in California will be paying more in property taxes annually. https://www.redfin.com/TX/Houston/9730-Arched-Oak-Dr-77095/home/40205907 https://www.redfin.com/TX/Houston/9730-Arched-Oak-Dr-77095/h...
- CrazyDave 6y agoThe percentage of someone's income that they spend on property/land probably goes down as their income goes up. For someone like Elon Musk, the lower tax rate is probably more enticing than the lower property/land costs.
- WillPostForFood 6y agoIf you want to do things, it is easier in Texas. That's a general statement, and I mean it generally. It isn't just taxes. There is friction on everything you try to do in California. Life is easier and happier without it.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- lazyjones 6y agoAre you sure? Anyone remember this? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/may/10/elon-musk-democrat-rebukes-magnate-tesla-hq-california https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/may/10/elon-musk...
- boringg 6y agoCalifornia still has every viewpoint that is imaginable though there does seem to be less space for far right. What's making everyone salty about Elon leaving is there was considerable amount of people who helped him build up in the state (i.e. state benefits, staff who worked incredibly hard for many years, consumers who bought his cars [drive in the bay area]) and he's peacing out, with a slap in the face to everyone seemilng all to avoid paying taxes on his unbelievable gains. No one is knocking Texas per se.
- bagacrap 6y agoIs this a successful way to dodge taxes? If so, that loophole should be fixed. I left California 4 years ago and yet somehow still pay taxes to the state. If you're saying that anyone who was professionally successful in California has no right to ever leave the state, that seems like a tough sell.
- beowulfey 6y agoWhy do you still pay taxes in California? Do you have a residence there?
- setpatchaddress 6y agoCA Tax Board is pretty aggressive: if you work for a business located in CA, they want your income.
- majormajor 6y agoMeanwhile, I'm holding my breath that enough richer-than-most folks will move to make house prices go down a bit instead of up 10% since last year like https://ktla.com/news/local-news/socal-homes-prices-again-set-all-time-high-jumping-12-1-from-last-year-despite-global-pandemic/ https://ktla.com/news/local-news/socal-homes-prices-again-se... Seems like they're still moving in instead of moving out, for now, though.
- JKCalhoun 6y agoWondering if Prop 13 is the cause of Cal-flight. Is it driving home prices up? Or is it robbing the state coffers of a tax revenue that has to be made up elsewhere? I don't know.
- setpatchaddress 6y agoYes, it both drives home prices up and robs the state of taxes. It would also devastate many people already invested if it went away overnight; there's not really an easy solution to fixing it.
- fossuser 6y agoOne idea I've had is tie new housing supply numbers to it. Build X amount of new housing or have your property tax go up 10% per year until at market rate. Would never pass, but I think it would be interesting.
- triceratops 6y agoRepeal it ASAP for commercial properties and rental properties (even if SFH). For single-family, owner-occupied housing, remove Prop 13 provisions for new sales, but grandfather in all current owners until their death or 20 years, whichever is sooner. After which their assessed values are gradually (say over 5 years) allowed to rise to the fair market value. Force a reassessment upon the property being inherited, and remove Prop 13 protections from it. Right now, there's no reassessment if a child or grandchild inherits the property. Eventually all grandfathered owners will die off, sell and leave, or start paying taxes based on the fair market value of their property.
- herodoturtle 6y ago> And before you bash Texas, its not perfect. But its pretty diverse, and it seems that folks with opposing viewpoints can still coexist here. I like that... Interesting point. It reminded me that in his past he has also left South Africa, and yet South Africa could also be described pretty accurately as "its not perfect. But its pretty diverse, and it seems that folks with opposing viewpoints can still coexist here." Now I'm fairly certain based on his interviews that the reason he "left South Africa" was more to do with him wanting to move to the US since it increased the odds of success of his entrepreneurial dreams. So I suspect his move to Texas might be along similar lines? > I suspect something must be going on for several high profile folks moving out. Interesting question you raise there. If that were indeed true, what would you guess might be the cause? I'd guess it might have to do with freedom of some kind.
- lotsofpulp 6y agoI've met quite a few people who moved out of South Africa to the US and UK, and the reason I was always given was something to do with the common advice being to not stop your car at night or at remote intersections lest you get carjacked or worse.
- herodoturtle 6y agoYeah that's good advice if you're in a dangerous part of town, but it does on occasion also happen in what are considered the safer suburbs. Crime is South Africa's biggest pusher-outer-of-citizens. But those that have been to Cape Town and its surrounds understand why so many still choose to live there. It's a tough compromise!
- lotsofpulp 6y agoOf course, South Africa (and the surrounding countries, and quite frankly much of Africa below the Sahara that I have visited) is gorgeous and unparalleled in almost all aspects. If it wasn't for the lack of a high trust society, I would actually look into moving to Cape Town myself.
- itbeho 6y agoAt last count I've had 14 friends move out of California in the last 3 years. All of them middle class. The biggest reasons given are cost of living and quality of life and education for their kids.
- scop 6y agoWe will be moving out of CA in the coming months. We are lifelong residents. We are leaving due to cost of living and especially quality of life for our children.
- jerkstate 6y agoPlease consider the policies that made your location expensive and of poor quality for families when voting in your new home.
- scop 6y agoOh trust me, I didn't vote for said policies in SF and I won't be voting for them in TX!
- didibus 6y agoI know everyone likes to scape goat some policies for that, but as Occam razors would have it, I think it's just the population growth that was the main cause of price increase, and a population decrease would probably result in a price decrease.
- dionidium 6y ago> I think it's just the population growth that was the main cause of price increase Population growth without commensurate growth in housing. You can add people, but you gotta let them build houses. If you don't, then prices rise, for reasons that are very easy to understand if you're not financially (or otherwise) motivated to find them confusing.
- 6y ago
- fpoling 6y agoFew reasons to leave California - https://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2020/09/12/leaving-the-bay-area/ https://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2020/09/12/leaving-the-ba...
- lanewinfield 6y agoBay Area != California Stopped reading at "urban hellscape like NYC"
- setpatchaddress 6y ago"Nothing works in California; it is “failed state” tier. It is also a preview of the national dystopia to come if California isn’t sawed off and left to drift off to sea in a Calexit. It is either that, give it back to Mexico, or a war of extermination -nothing less will save us from the nightmarish California Dream. The Bay Area has nice weather, and some interesting people live there out of what I assume is inertia and provincialism, but there is no worse place to live in North America today. It’s a physical paradise made into dystopian hellscape by the people who live in it." This is completely unhinged (and bigoted) fantasy. I have lived in multiple places around the US and liked many of them. California works pretty well, actually. It is not remotely like the USSR circa 1985. It does overtax and underdeliver. But the federal government does that on a much grander scale. The Bay Area and LA are overcrowded. There are other places to live in California! Some with much more natural beauty.
- selimthegrim 6y agoWell he posts on HN so I am sure he can respond to criticism personally
- threeseed 6y ago> Also, seekers of alternate Bay Areas: fuck off, we’re full: the last thing any functioning society needs is your contributions. That's the sort of insightful, tolerant viewpoint that helps elevate discussions.
- techsupporter 6y agoMy birth certificate says "Texas" across the top and people have been "fleeing California" to Texas for as long as I've been alive. There's nothing special about Musk; he just happens to be high-profile about it and managed to extract more from California before decamping to a "cheap" state than several of those who came before him. I disagree with your assessment that Texas has wide acceptance for opposing viewpoints, at least out in the suburbs where I grew up. If you were not religious and conservative (I have my own anecdotes), you did not fit in. Only when I went to college in a college town did people largely seem to want to live and let live. Sure, inside the larger cities it is more cosmopolitan, for lack of a better word, but lots of people live in the 'burbs and around the smaller areas and do not get the benefit of this peaceful coexistence. For example, to this day I do not recommend being openly gay and living near Tyler. If someone moved to Texas, they made a choice to accept it and I will not knock people for their individual choices. But my experience is not that the prevailing view is open acceptance of people of all stripes like found in other parts of the country.
- monoideism 6y agoBy the same token, there are vast regions of California that are conservative rural and conservative suburban as you describe (hello 22nd district).
- WillPostForFood 6y agoHow long have you been out of Texas? I think we know people aren't coming to Texas to live in Tyler; They are moving to the cities, Dallas, Houston, Austin, San Antonio, which are all diverse, and have large gay communities. Even Tyler has changed. (old article, but still) https://www.advocate.com/society/activism/2009/09/29/gays-take-east-texas-highway-storm https://www.advocate.com/society/activism/2009/09/29/gays-ta...
- tedivm 6y agoThat article is horrifying. If you meant to show that ass "texas getting better" then I hate to see how bad it was before this.
- lhorie 6y agoFWIW, several youtube celebrities have also spoken about having moved out - or expressed serious interest in moving out - of CA. Most have deliberately stated that taxes are a major reason, but they also cite increase in homelessness (which has become particularly bad in LA and SF) and related safety concerns as factors (especially considering how said high taxes are supposed to go towards fixing these issues).
- stanford_labrat 6y agoI've seen this as well in the twitch/esports scene as well to an extent. Many of the larger streamers are moving to or based out of cities in Texas.
- synaesthesisx 6y agoSeveral colleagues are planning on relocating because of the state’s incredible failure to handle homelessness and mental illness.
- bosswipe 6y agoPretty interesting to see how much glee many people take in anything negative about California. What is that about? No other state gets so much hate.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- nitrogen 6y agoMy hypothesis: it's a direct reaction to so many media and entertainment business being based in California, making it appear from the outside like Californians are especially smug about their state.
- danielscrubs 6y agoFrom an outsiders perspective, even in HN there have been people saying that if you didn’t like SF then you are just not enough sophisticated nor enough out doors to appreciate it so I can definitely understand where the smugness talk is coming from. But I think it’s a necessary smugness if that makes sense, if you want talent to gather to a specific place you have to be ruthless in marketing for that place, but of course that will create a backlash when people actually visit.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- J0_k3r 6y agobecause the other states don't suck near as much ass as california
- betwixthewires 6y agoI'd say the entirety of the deep south gets much more hate than California.
- njharman 6y agono texas is horrible, esp Austin. Please don't move here.
- cloverich 6y ago^ an Austin tradition typically reserved for the yearly SXSW festival, when the city is flooded with tourists during a time that has nicer-than-usual weather. It is also traditional to develop a cruel sense of joy when people begin complaining about how hot it is in early July, as you tell them it is about to get, somehow, _much_ hotter.
- bdcravens 6y agoHouston in August is pretty much just misery. That said, we're pretty wimpy in the 40s and acting like it's the ice apocalypse when it's 30, so we earn similar ridicule.
- GhettoChild 6y agoI moved from the Bay Area to Houston in the summer. Having grown up in the bay I assumed that it would cool down at night like it does in California. I was wrong.
- soupson 6y agoAustin used to be great, but is the music scene actually going to rebound?
- Dirlewanger 6y ago>it seems that folks with opposing viewpoints can still coexist here. Lol. A couple weeks ago, there was footage of a bunch of Trump supporters in trucks boxing in a Biden campaign box on I-35 and trying to run it off the road. This isn't a state where people with differing political opinions can coexist harmoniously.
- reaperducer 6y agoAnd before you bash Texas... The problem is that most people on HN, and elsewhere on the internet, got everything they know about Texas from watching cartoons on TV. (Same for their knowledge of religion.) They enjoy repeating half-century-old stereotypes while turning a blind eye to their own region's failings. It's geographic fanboyism. /Lived in Texas for five years. Also lived in 13 other states. Would return to Texas if the opportunity arose.
- seanmcdirmid 6y agoI lived in Austin for a summer, my dash board melted. I just wouldn’t like it because of the weather, but also the urban planning strikes me as fairly unsustainable (lots of sprawl, frontage roads everywhere). But mostly the weather, dashboards are expensive.
- mc32 6y agoI know plenty of diverse liberals (the conservatives already fled) who are moving outside CA due to tax reasons and housing reasons. These are not rich people but a range of professionals in a handful of salary brackets. So it's not just Elon. It's those who have the opportunity to do so where it does not impact their lifestyle significantly.
- 7thaccount 6y agoSure. Extremely high rent, rolling power brown outs (electricity), massive forest fires...etc. Every area has its unique challenges and benefits. For example, there are many jobs in California in a variety of areas including tech.
- ranman 6y agoI think he's pretty tired of being used as a punching bag by various elected representatives. He's not a perfect person by any stretch but he's been a net benefit and gain for CA, the US, and maybe the world? The guy constantly gets called out for his twitter shitposting and people think he's some evil overlord... these same folks don't seem to care at all when their elected reps sell them out w.r.t housing, development, healthcare.
- vmception 6y agoIts just part of his naturalization package. Are you really American if you didn't non-consensually penetrate California's electrical grid and resources before doing an energy play in Texas?
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 6y agoCalifornia has a ton of people moving here. That means there'll be some combination of population growth and people moving out. Of all my friends in SF, there are only five of us from here. When many of them move back out, it sounds like an exodus, but it's really just circulation. Unless you are referring to specifically the covid moves, which are high cost of living minus geography mattering. It's anyone's guess whether it'll continue or reverse or what after covid.
- uoaei 6y agoThis may be glib, but: snowflakes who can't handle or else absolve themselves of the responsibility of taking care of the community they inhabit don't generally get much support from said community.
- manigandham 6y agoThe state has gone downhill on every metric possible. People can't name even 5 things that have improved over the past decade. Taxes, infrastructure, homeless, rent/housing, cost of living, gas, traffic, smog and pollution, crime, illegal immigration, gangs, fires, droughts, private property issues, local govt gridlock and deficiency, and now the weather isn't great either. Unfortunately many of those leaving don't realize the policies they voted for are the main cause of this mess and might repeat the same thing in the new areas.
- tabtab 6y ago> The state has gone downhill on every metric possible. Mostly because it got more crowded. As a CA resident, if you don't like CA, please DO move out. It will help traffic, for one. If ALL you care about is a big house and taxes, then CA is probably not for you. As soon as you walk outside your TX McMansion, you may realize why CA is so crowded.
- manigandham 6y ago> "Mostly because it got more crowded." So what? That means more people and tax revenue to solve problems. There are plenty of very dense areas around the world run just fine. This is a failure of policy not population. If people are such a problem then maybe tax-paying law-abiding citizens should be prioritized over illegal immigration. > "If ALL you care about is a big house and taxes, then CA is probably not for you... you may realize why CA is so crowded." Who said that? Your dismissive and defensive attitude along with blaming completely irrelevant details like population is the reason why CA and its voting populace is in the state that it's in. Please list what has gotten better in CA over the last 10 years or I'll assume you have no argument.
- nomel 6y ago> So what? That means more people and tax revenue to solve problems. I'm not the state government though, I'm an individual with a life outside of my house. When the majority of the time for any activity outside of my house is sitting in traffic or waiting in lines, it's difficult to enjoy the area you live in. For this reason, I find myself heading further and further out of town to find areas or activities that aren't completely congested. Tax revenue won't make the lines shorter or traffic less. To do either would require bulldozing all of the housing and building up, at least where I am. Unfortunately, whenever this is done, luxury condos or apartments are the result, with rent that's higher than a mortgage, even for around here.
- gmadsen 6y agoI think the strategy is to get rich in California then leave when your are financially secure. Very few software jobs in Texas have salaries in the 300-500k region.
- foobarbazetc 6y agoNo one’s salty or cares. The fact is Musk extracted all his value from California then “fled” to Texas. He’s a parasite.
- fortran77 6y ago> with opposing viewpoints can still coexist here. I don't see many "opposing viewpoints" in Palo Alto either.
- cortesoft 6y agoMore people leave California than any other state. Also, more people move to California than any other state. California is just huge https://xkcd.com/1138/ https://xkcd.com/1138/
- Traster 6y ago>There does seem to be a trend of people fleeing California No. There's a trend of rich people commissioning articles about them leaving california. Articles which provide literally zero evidence of a trend.
- somethoughts 6y agoIt's also quick click-able - California is a brand - somewhat like Apple and Tesla itself. The media likes to build up hype brands and then do exposes to deflate them. It's different parts of the media doing different hyping/deflating.
- djur 6y agoThere was similarly a little mini-trend of rich people making a big show of renouncing their US citizenship in the Obama years, with probably a 10:1 ratio of articles to people who actually did it.
- SoSoRoCoCo 6y agoI think if you look for trends among the people fleeing, that might be a clue. It is mostly libertarian, or right-wing egos: Ben Shapiro, Elon Musk, Alan Karp (Palantir) were the three mentioned in an Axios article today.
- deeeeplearning 6y ago> And before you bash Texas, its not perfect. Indeed and people leaving LA or SF because of the homelessness problem are going to have a serious wakeup call when they get to Austin. It's certainly not as bad as it is in CA but there are tent cities under countless overpasses and downtown has a large amount of homeless.
- erik_landerholm 6y agoLived there for 4 years, your last couple of sentences made me laugh. People would drop racist statements in conversation as if it was normal, and I guess it was for most people, but not for me, coming for Portland and now living in LA.
- mbesto 6y ago> But its pretty diverse, and it seems that folks with opposing viewpoints can still coexist here. I think you're talking about Dallas/Houston/Austin vs everything else. I actually wouldn't necessarily call that diverse, it's in fact polarizing, but that's okay. At the end of the day, no one in Texas really cares because the economy is strong and people's assets are going up. Until that stops (and it will eventually, like California) then thats where the divisiveness is going to be a problem.
- aluminum96 6y agoHaving grown up gay in North Texas and then moved to California for college, I strenuously object to your assertion that "folks with opposing viewpoints can still coexist here." It's truly leaps and bounds more accepting for LGBT people in California than in North Texas.
- michael_rb 6y agoDepends where in Texas and where in California no? If you grew up outside Bakersfield and then moved to Austin for college would the reverse not also be true?
- aluminum96 6y agoI moved from North Dallas to South Bay, so I think it's actually a pretty apples-to-apples comparison: both places are basically semi-dense suburbs just outside the urban core, with lots of jobs.
- michael_rb 6y agoThanks for sharing, sounds like a reasonable comparison. I’m really sorry to hear that by the way. I spent a year in a suburb outside of Houston and also felt it was far less tolerant than Palo Alto / MTV / Cupertino was, but wasn’t sure if it was a fair comparison for me to make given the differences between the two (the suburb of Houston I was in was an hour outside of the outer loop and had very few jobs and very little diversity, whereas the suburbs making up the Bay Area all felt a bit like one continuous city to me, with a large population and the university right next to them). I haven’t spent any time near Dallas either though, thanks for that perspective.
- stjohnswarts 6y agoPersonally I'm thinking about fleeing Texas for Colorado, so I think it's just up to the individual.
- devsquid 6y agoLord you bought this story hook line and sinker... > But its pretty diverse, and it seems that folks with opposing viewpoints can still coexist here. I like that... You hear this a lot lately from tech bros. It's hilarious considering how many things are illegal in Texas. Ya you can buy an assault rifle, but its illegal to buy hard liquor on Sunday. Have you ever looked at their gerrymandering? Did you know during the 2016 election they didn't allow mail in ballots?
- Rapzid 6y agoBoth things are true. Hispanics are set to become the largest racial demographic soon. ~13% of the population is black. Houston is one of the, if not the depending on the report, racially diverse cities in the country. It's a bit self segregated geographically, but is pretty impressive and there is a lot of culture to be found. Large Asian community with substantial communities from countries that don't really exist elsewhere in the state. The state is also more or less purple outside the voting booth. Major metro areas have higher concentrations of liberals. Etc etc. Pretty much a microcosm of the USA.
- devsquid 6y agoBoth what are true? Have you ever lived in Texas? Yes the like most urban areas they trend left and more ethnically diverse. Thus Texas is also trending left. I'm not sure what your point is. Is your point that change is coming for Texas? I totally agree with that, but I think it's going to be a longer and harder fight than most think. From my experience a lot of the white population there are some of the worse bigots I've ever met. My point was it's not a very free state, lol there are just certain specific things allowed. And it has low taxes so it's great if you're already rich and successful.
- nradov 6y agoMy local south Bay Area school district had a large drop in enrollment for the 2019-20 school year. The district administrators track where students go based on record transfer requests and they told me the most popular out-of-state destination was Texas.
- rayiner 6y agoPeople aren’t “fleeing” California per se, but the long-term trend across the board is people migrating to the sunbelt. California will probably lose House seats in this decade’s reapportionment. This trend has been going on for a very long time—and it’s in part why California itself happened in the first place. Bell Labs was in Manhattan and New Jersey. When Silicon Valley arose, California was a red state with low taxes, low regulation, and cheap land where you could build semiconductor factories easily. Virginia was the same way—the Dulles Tech corridor was farmland when I was growing up.
- simonebrunozzi 6y agoIsn't it obvious that this is primarily a "tax optimization" move?