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Coronavirus Could Push More Than 1B People to Extreme Poverty
- gtrhtrhtrhtr 6y agoI personally I'm getting richer. Working for a big corp as a software engineer, I've done nothing but saving more money since the lock down started. I've also done much more shopping on Amazon, so I guess I'm giving back some of that money to other big corps. Doing groceries at Costo so money is not leaving the circle of big corps. I've tried to eat out more often, even leaving less or no tips in order to feel more incentivized to not eat at home.
- akka47 6y agothe most HN comment I've read all day
- bzb6 6y agoGee, I wonder why there are HN-like comments in HN
- darkteflon 6y agoMust be parody, surely.
- vestrigi 6y agoEating out more often to stimulate small businesses but leaving little to no tip also sounds counter-intuitive.
- gtrhtrhtrhtr 6y agoHow? Tipping is friction and makes you feel bad, by not doing it I'm incentivized to eat out more often. What matters to me are small businesses, if I help the workers but not the small businesses there'll be no job for them tomorrow.
- toomuchtodo 6y agoYour efforts make you feel good, but on your scale are useless (tipping, not tipping, whatever). Not a judgement in any way. The only meaningful help is broad scale fiscal policy support.
- gtrhtrhtrhtr 6y agoI'd be willing to pay more taxes to help the economy, but most people are against this. In the mean time I do my part by eating out more often and visiting small businesses.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Alupis 6y agoI can't figure out if your posts here in this thread are in jest or are serious. Please excuse me if they are in jest... > I'd be willing to pay more taxes to help the economy, but most people are against this They are against this because paying more taxes does nothing to "help" the economy. Where do you think tax money goes? It doesn't go to people's bank accounts to pay for rent, groceries, car payments, utility bills etc. or any of the places that would directly contribute to the economy. > In the mean time I do my part by eating out more often and visiting small businesses. And as already discussed below - you are also screwing over the employees at those businesses. Quite literally costing them money they could make by serving someone who will tip... so they can, you know, pay for rent and contribute to the economy.
- cmdshiftf4 6y ago>you are also screwing over the employees at those businesses Not to open this argument but it's not the patron's job to ensure the staff are paid appropriately. If servers don't want to run the risk of not being paid at least minimum wage, they should ensure their conditions of employment guarantee it and the business should reflect it in their prices.
- Larrikin 6y agoWould the restaurants prefer I just cook at home or order pick up with no tip? It's an unworkable business model if the direct exchange for the menu price is not enough. There used to be the service of walking your food to you and refilling your drinks a couple times that restaurants claimed the charity was for but it makes no sense when you're picking up directly.
- tyingq 6y agoI'd say it's okay not to tip, so long as you tell the person who would have received it your intentions, in advance. Only fair they adjust accordingly.
- cmdshiftf4 6y ago>Only fair they adjust accordingly. Er, not serve? Or a degraded service which entails what? Begrudging looks? Always a chuckle to behold America's fetish for tipping.
- tyingq 6y agoI get why someone wouldn't like it. But it's not a battle you can fight at that scale. The wait staff get paid $2.13 an hour. They feel the pain, not the business or the American fetish meisters.
- cmdshiftf4 6y agoYou're right and it would need collective action to rectify, and even then you'd encounter some not insignificant amount of those in the service industry who'd loathe a fair minimum wage in lieu of relying on tips as they'd see it as crippling their income. How it should be and how it is are immensely detached, I think we can all agree on.
- prh8 6y agoDoesn't appear like it
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- SubiculumCode 6y agoThis user lives in one arm of K-Shaped Recovery.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- fennecfoxen 6y ago> Doing groceries at Costo so money is not leaving the circle of big corps. Costco's net margin is ~2.6%, so the other 97.4% is leaving Costco for labor (notably well-paid for grocery stores) and whoever their suppliers are. Are they substantially different from your normal grocery store's suppliers? For that matter, is your normal grocery store itself different from Costco in some structural way that is meaningful to you? Perhaps you were previously shopping at a coop like San Francisco's Rainbow Groceries or New York's Park Slope Food Coop?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- oivey 6y agoSo you’re getting more for less by eating out more often and not tipping? And you’re also saving more than ever? I mean, that’s cool, but I hope you don’t think you’re being altruistic.
- infogulch 6y agoI think GP comment is parody/satire? (maybe?)
- gtrhtrhtrhtr 6y agoI want to help small businesses.
- tolbish 6y agoAt the expense of convenience?
- gtrhtrhtrhtr 6y agoI'm not sure I understand, would you rather me not eat out and help out small businesses? My money, my way of helping. I pay taxes for the rest.
- tolbish 6y agoI'm in the same boat as you. I want to help small businesses, but Amazon makes it easy to not do so, particularly during the holiday season.
- ocdtrekkie 6y agoThe rich get richer as the poor get poorer. Case in point.
- vmception 6y agoThe poor get *children
- Trasmatta 6y ago> I've tried to eat out more often, even leaving less or no tips in order to feel more incentivized to not eat at home. If you live in the US this is a real jerk move. You're talking about how you're getting richer, but then aren't willing to tip the service worker making less than minimum wage?
- gtrhtrhtrhtr 6y agoI don't agree. I don't like tipping and so I do not eat out usually because of this. Right now I understand that we need to do our part to help small businesses, so I'm making an effort and tricking my brain into eating out by not tipping. This is where I want to put my money: I think it's my responsibility if small businesses are going to survive, I don't think it's my responsibility if workers are not paid well.
- alistairSH 6y agoI don't like tipping and so I do not eat out usually because of this. This doesn't really make sense. Without tipping (expected nationally), the cost of labor would just have to be priced directly into the food. Instead of a $15 burger, it would be $20. If you don't like to spend money on dining out, fine, but it has little to do with tipping and more to do with being frugal.
- ketamine__ 6y ago> This doesn't really make sense. Without tipping (expected nationally), the cost of labor would just have to be priced directly into the food. Instead of a $15 burger, it would be $20. So basically it does make sense because it is easier if the price is the total cost.
- gtrhtrhtrhtr 6y agoI disagree, tipping is stupid because it is based on percentages. Why should I give more tip because I bought a more expensive item? Sorry but we don't have to agree, forcing tipping on others is an asshole move.
- 6y ago
- loblollyboy 6y agoIs that you TechLead?
- prh8 6y agoThis would be funny if it wasn't entirely plausible around here
- prh8 6y agoSadly, looking at other comments here and history it doesn't appear to be a joke
- fnord77 6y agotips exist because small businesses grossly underpay their workers.
- rabuse 6y agoWe all understand that, but it's still negligent to not give a tip to workers, who you know depend on it. Until that industry somehow makes the shift away from tipping, people still need to survive.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> Until that industry somehow makes the shift away from tipping Which it won't do as long as people are tipping, in fact, entirely new industries are being created with deliberate, engineered pressure to expand tipping culture into them. There's a very good argument that if you are opposed to tipping culture, as well as taking every opportunity to oppose public policy which supports and accommodated it, you ought not participate in it, which only reinforces and perpetuates it.
- ulisesrmzroche 6y agoSo the guy delivering your food who may not even speak English can go fuck himself right? Not gonna be a very popular hill to die on
- fnord77 6y agothat was my point
- ubercow13 6y agoI always wonder about non-customer-facing workers at small businesses. Who tips them?
- dragonwriter 6y ago> I always wonder about non-customer-facing workers at small businesses. In places that have mandated tip sharing, the same people tipping the customer-facing workers (and, again, this isn't "small-business" specific; chain restaurants are no different than independents here), in places that don't, no one does. Tipping culture is more industry-focussed than scale-of-business focussed.
- amptorn 6y agoYou should be tipping triple right now, rich boy.
- jdhn 6y agoI really hope that this is a parody and that we've all taken the bait in responding to you.
- fennecfoxen 6y agoEducation in third-world countries is taking a particularly hard hit, particularly for young girls. https://www.economist.com/leaders/2020/07/18/the-risks-of-keeping-schools-closed-far-outweigh-the-benefits https://www.economist.com/leaders/2020/07/18/the-risks-of-ke...
- loraa 6y agoit's hard on everyone especially girls because the trend to to be anti-male.
- SubiculumCode 6y agoBasic Income Now, with an immutable tenet that the basic income cannot be restricted or reduced, or contain compliance dependencies. Its time to empower individuals.
- dkdk8283 6y agoI can’t support socialism at all. I figured out how to work and earn money as 9th grade dropout. Everyone can.
- Daishiman 6y agoIt figures that given that you needed to earn money at 9th grade that you would have never become a doctor, lawyer, or any liberal profession that requires multiple years of dedicated studies. Good for you but that's not how you make an equitable society.
- syshum 6y agoI prefer equality, merit based system. Not "equitable" Equal opportunity, not equal outcomes
- doggosphere 6y agoAnd how do you propose creating equal opportunities?
- dkdk8283 6y agoBy not favoring or biasing. Truly.
- doggosphere 6y agoAnd you apply this rule to corporations how? What metric do you judge your results by?
- loraa 6y agoNo worries guys. The left has this covered. Just about any day now I am sure all the Hollywood celebrities, tech execs and progressive politicians will be donating to keep everyone afloat.
- quibbler 6y agoSo they want us to believe socialism is the solution, after goverment interventios have broken the economy. And many people believe it. They finally found their lever to make people compliant. Good luck everybody, and consider buying some Bitcoin.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- macinjosh 6y ago* Our Governments’ Coronavirus Response Could Push More than 1B People to Extreme Poverty FTFY
- AndrewBissell 6y agoThe response is pushing many into extreme poverty while also pushing a rich few into even greater wealth.
- cm2187 6y agoIt is being downvoted but it is true. Massive unprecedented money printing has pushed asset prices up. And we are still printing more money.
- AndrewBissell 6y agoMMT for the rich, austerity for the poor.
- strangemonad 6y agoWhy is this being downvoted when it’s demonstrably true. The people being hit the hardest where the ones already in economically precarious situations
- eikenberry 6y agoBecause it is common knowledge and doesn't add to the conversation?
- AndrewBissell 6y agoIt may be common knowledge that the wealthy have done disproportionately well during the pandemic, but much fewer are agreed or aware that that is largely a consequence of the government's/Fed's response.
- ekianjo 6y ago
- ehejsbbejsk 6y agoThe only reason why people in tech still have jobs (and why SV hasn’t blown up) is because the c-suite is getting rich off of stock market. When that party ends (likely in February/March timeframe), there will be a depression and civil unrest.
- umvi 6y agoSo are you saying I should sell all my stock right now?
- wetpaws 6y agosocietal collapse priced in
- outworlder 6y agoThe music hasn't stopped yet. But pay close attention to the DJ.
- cmdshiftf4 6y ago>When that party ends (likely in February/March timeframe), there will be a depression and civil unrest. Substantiate this, please.
- ehejsbbejsk 6y agoWe’ve already had civil unrests this year in the middle of a pandemic. When people start getting laid off it’s going to add fuel to that fire. Government has already blown its load in terms of monetary and fiscal options. I especially fear for what could go down in EU. They cannot sustain another debt crisis. We are ripe for a rapidly deteriorating global financial crisis.
- cmdshiftf4 6y agoInteresting. I'm not sure I agree and for one reason: the Western governments have essentially shown throughout the past couple of decades, and especially in the past year, that they will do almost anything to keep the rich getting richer. They're 100% not going to allow class consciousness to form again, as we saw the beginnings of in the Occupy Wall Street era, so there's some risk of them manufacturing further racial grief to keep the plebs at one another's necks but the can't let that escalate to the point where it'd threaten the bottom line either. So much easier to maintain the strategy of demoralization, distraction and vapid consumerism.
- ProfessorLayton 6y agoCompletely anecdotal, but while I work in tech, most of my family remains working in trades. Back in March we (I help out where I can) were all in a panic because we assumed discretionary income spending would immediately dry up due to the incoming recession — they are very much working class people, and will be in deep trouble if work dries up. But the opposite has happened, apparently _a lot_ of people decided now is the time to remodel/improve their home, and the family business is booked _months_ in advance. Furthermore, customers also assume that business must be low, and are aghast when we tell them that "No, work cannot start next week, does late February work?". At the moment their biggest issue is finding enough skilled labor to meet demand, and excruciatingly slow permitting process. We're still extremely wary with how this economy is playing out, and continue to plan for the worst. I still worry for them a lot because, well Covid, but safety protocols and N95 masks were the norm before the virus took hold.
- draw_down 6y agoI think it’s best to think of the crisis as having a disruptive effect, not only a downward or depressive one. Some sectors have been completely gutted, live events for example. Others suffer from second order effects like dry cleaning. And as you point out, for others business is booming. The source of all of it is disruption and upheaval.
- lhorie 6y agoYeah, I went to buy some materials from home depot for a patio project this past summer and discovered they were having trouble keeping up with bulk deliveries (e.g. crushed stone or bricks), because apparently everyone and their mothers had _also_ decided to do renovation or yard/patio work while stuck at home.
- bluedino 6y agoLumber prices are nuts right now
- alistairSH 6y agoAnecdotally, I see the same. No relations in the home improvement business or anything related, but the number of small contractors moving through the neighborhood doing all sized job is insane. We're no different, my wife completely redecorated the main level of our home. It was all things we wanted to do but were putting off. I guess being home 24/7 pushed us to action to improve the space.
- topkai22 6y agoThe title and heading are wrong. The article and associated says Covid could push an additional 207 million people into extreme poverty, for a total of 1 billion. Edit: the underlying UN study actually states 251 million additional people in poverty. Not sure where that 207 number in the article and many others coming from. That is also the worst case scenario. The expected case is 44 million. It’s a tragedy regardless, but the headline is inaccurate clickbait
- bigphishy 6y agoCan you find a more sensationalist headline than this? I think not.
- postingpals 6y ago> extreme poverty widely refers to an income below the international poverty line of $1.90 per day extreme poverty is a well-defined term, it's not emotive language.
- bigphishy 6y agoWell said, and I agree with that, thanks for correcting me. Although what motivated me to comment that is the "could" in the headline is a presumption, there are many things that could happen, that's all I mean to say.
- whatthesmack 6y agoThese (additional 207 million people pushed to extreme poverty) are the type of numbers that make me wonder why we are permitting the economic impact of lockdowns. If the side effects of the "lockdown cure" are going to be exorbitant poverty and starvation, doesn't that make the cure worse than the disease? In addition to this article, UNICEF says[0] up to 132 million people will face starvation related to the lockdowns in 2020. Just cursory searching yields the current COVID-19 death count at 1.6m[1] (a total which is disputed due to the "died from COVID-19" vs "died with COVID-19" distinction). It seems like the starvation and poverty numbers from the lockdowns are likely to exceed any potential COVID-19 death count (even with no lockdowns). And none of the aforementioned includes lockdown-related suicides, lack of medical care for existing medical conditions, and other impacts from being isolated or stuck inside. Is this all emotional/fear-based/CYA decision making? I keep hearing "follow the science", but it doesn't seem like anybody is doing that at a basic life-saving or economic level. It feels like I'm going crazy, because none of the decisions being made make sense to me and are resulting in significant suffering and death. It would be great to learn more if there are things I am overlooking here, but I've just been baffled lately. [0] https://data.unicef.org/resources/sofi-2020/ https://data.unicef.org/resources/sofi-2020/ [1] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
- marcosdumay 6y agoYou should compare that number with how many people would die if there was no lockdown, not with how many died.
- cmdshiftf4 6y agoAnd then compare that number with a lockdown that only targeted those at a higher risk of extremely poor or death outcomes from COVID.
- gnusty_gnurc 6y agoPoliticians are cynically deciding they’d rather not be blamed for deaths even if they’re categorically failing to protect the most vulnerable. So they’ve decided to obliterate small business and the working class by essentially outlawing work.
- exabrial 6y agoCorrection: the virus hasn't done anything to anyone who wasn't already at risk. This is a downvote worthy perspective because it reflects the truth of the situation while countering the narrative from the media. Grand gestures by politicians seeking re-election and an opportunity to assert their authority is shoving people into poverty and the largest mental health crisis we've ever seen. In March, lockdowns and temporary restrictions were appropriate because we had no idea of what we were dealing with. I mean cover on, Ford was ready to manufacturer 50k ventilators! We know who's at risk at this point. Locking down the healthy is not helping the unhealthy (by choice or by no fault of their own, doesn't matter, everyone deserves to live). Instead of providing assistance to those most at risk, government officials have capitalized on the opportunity to expand their control over individuals not at risk.
- think814 6y agoA virus doesn’t “push” anyone to poverty. The reaction to the virus by the government does that. It would be more honest if predictions like this were mentioned alongside articles in the press that claim lockdowns are the only option we have.
- gnusty_gnurc 6y agoThere’s so many assumptions and ignored aspects in this discussion. Whether it be the effectiveness of mitigation strategies, respect for individual rights, costs of lost years of education for 10s of millions of kids and how that affects their lives, cost to business that are destroyed forever more, health consequences due to shuttering inside, mental health consequences, the list goes on... We’re told all of this is in our best interest by rich people who will not suffer much cost if any - most politicians may come out ahead financially.
- skybrian 6y agoReactions by people are sufficient. It’s unclear how many people are basing their decisions solely on what the governments allow at this point.
- natechols 6y agoI've seen anecdotal claims that attendance at restaurants and theaters has been way down even in states or regions that had no restrictions. Would be interesting to see some actual data for this.
- sokoloff 6y agoIf every bar and restaurant within 10 miles of me were 100% open for sit-down dining, I'd have eaten in exactly zero of them for the last 6 months, down from probably 50 or more visits plus 20 bar visits in the same period in 2019. Zero government influence in the above paragraph.
- ekianjo 6y agoThat's a poor anecdotal take on the point. What matters is that if the government makes it impossible, the possibility for everyone is zero, while it would be between 0 and maybe 50% without lockdowns. That's the difference between a business surviving and not.
- captainredbeard 6y agoThe lockdowns could.
- tboyd47 6y agoAll people have to do to turn it around is stop complying.
- umvi 6y agoIn Maryland there is a new arm of police call the "Covid Compliance Unit". People that disobey (by having parties with lots of people) are arrested by the CCU.
- standardUser 6y agoMuch like a club owner with egregious fire code violations could be arrested. Or someone who stores illegal explosives in a warehouse. Or someone who drives at at excessive speeds on the highway.
- taurath 6y agoI feel like it would be better if we just tagged poverty as being off-topic to Hacker News. The vast vast majority of people in technology do not currently experience poverty in any real sense. The same tired and completely unproductive discussion plays out every time. You have: * The "I was broke once and I made it" crowd. They made it out so everyone else should be able to. This creates a predictable argument of one side asserting privilege is a thing and the other side taking it as an insult to their self-worth and industriousness. Both are right, both are wrong, nobody learns anything. * The "Policy" or "Solutioning" threads. Usually started with little nuance or specifics, or with an idea that is so large you'll have to go 10 replies deep to have a chance to get down to anyone's personal beliefs or life experiences as to why they believe how they do. * The "I myself am doing badly because I can't afford a 7 figure home in silicon valley" threads. The arguments are one side saying they're out of touch with "real" people and the other empathizing with the lack of security that comes with not owning a home. Housing discussions follow which I would've hoped are as boring to others as they are by now to me. Were we to emphasise having productive or at least different conversations, we might try for what I call the "missing" threads, IE the ones that don't happen but should. Threads from: * People who had to go to a food bank lately. * People on SNAP, Social Security, Disability. * People currently or in the past outside the western world who have experience with poverty. This may not be the demographic that goes to HN, but if you take time to listen to people trapped in poverty for even 10 minutes and BELIEVE them, you might learn something really interesting. Go give $100 to a local or international food bank now. They need it desperately. Instead of discussing policy on here go look at the lines of people who are currently hungry in the first world: https://www.reuters.com/news/picture/long-lines-at-food-banks-across-us-idUSRTX7EHU2 https://www.reuters.com/news/picture/long-lines-at-food-bank... https://thehill.com/policy/finance/527462-long-lines-form-at-food-banks-across-country-ahead-of-thanksgiving https://thehill.com/policy/finance/527462-long-lines-form-at... You, on hacker news, can afford it.
- CharlesW 6y ago> Go give $100 to a local or international food bank now. Thank you for the reminder about this simple action for good. It was trivial to find my local food banks, and took only a couple minutes to give. (I used charitynavigator.org to decide between a couple of local options.)