16 ms·

The psychology behind ‘revenge bedtime procrastination’

359 points by sebwi 6y ago

umvi 6y ago
I find myself doing this too. My kids put such a large constraint on my free time that between work and family I only have 3 hours or less per day to do everything, so I am tempted to sacrifice sleep to gain a bit more book reading, side project, or video game time.
- jansan 6y ago
  You will get more time once your children grow up, which will in hindsight happen much faster than you think.
- Loughla 6y ago
  Why not include your family in your 'me time'? I always had my children with me when I was doing 'me things'. Including reading, video games, woodworking, hunting, hiking, and even meditation. For reference, I'm a super introverted person, and really need alone time to recharge my batteries. It's a nice way to instill values while also enjoying them while they're small. I mean, they will grow up eventually (really fast actually) and won't want to hang out with you at some point, so even if you "can't" do your 'me time' with them, you will have access to it again, eventually.
  - umvi 6y ago
    I do try... with some success. My kids are still very small though so they get bored after a few minutes if I am reading out loud from anything other than a children's book. We are still in the "high entropy" stage of childhood with most of our kids.
  - redisman 6y ago
    Anything outside I include the kiddos but I'm playing DOOM and Sekiro right now so I can't exactly have a toddler watch me decapitate demons/samurais and I'd rather have a beer etc. after the kids are sleeping. When they get older we'll probably play some Mario Kart/Minecraft style stuff together. My 'me' time is exclusively after the kids are sleeping anyway.
- snegu 6y ago
  From just reading the headline, I thought this article was going to be about little kids refusing to go to bed! I get so frustrated when my toddler won't go to sleep, exactly because it cuts into that precious free time.
dusted 6y ago
I'm also doing this, big time.. Between a full-time job, building a new home, renovating another and having a wife and kid, there's not any "me" time until past wife+kids bedtime. I only get energy from being alone and doing stuff on my computer, so I trade sleep for time every night.
- reeeeee 6y ago
  Nothing beats having some time alone to work on your personal projects. Especially after wasting a full day working with enterprise code that was written by an offshore company six years ago.
  - Taylor_OD 6y ago
    You okay?
- dcolkitt 6y ago
  > I only get energy from being alone and doing stuff on my computer, so I trade sleep for time every night. I certainly understand the sentiment. But I'd question is this actually true? Have you considered doing a Gwern-style self-experiment to quantify the impact? Maybe try something like your current routine for two weeks, then rigorously maxing out sleep for two weeks. Take systematic surveys of your subjective wellbeing and energy levels throughout the day. Then compare the two periods. You might be surprised to learn that what you think is giving you energy, is actually taking it away. I think as humans we tend to have very bad introspective intuition about what actually improves our energy and mood. I know I certainly do. Being scientific about it can reveal some surprising results.
  - Pet_Ant 6y ago
    > You might be surprised to learn that what you think is giving you energy, is actually taking it away. I feel like you are confusing physical energy with spiritual energy. The stuff that makes you feel motivated and driven and excited, versus just capable of doing work.
deleted 6y ago
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otikik 6y ago
No mention of how to get out of this unhealthy habit. I'm struggling with this myself. Some of my conclusions so far: * When I am sleep-deprived I am less productive. So I spend more time doing "work". Then I have less time for everything else I want to do (family, cooking, sport). So I take more time away from sleep. And the cycle repeats. Sleep deprivation is self-perpetuating. * What I do at night, when I am exhausted, in 2 hours can be done in the morning in half an hour. * I get angrier and negative much more easily when I am sleep deprived. For my particular case: limit the time dedicated to "work" and do the other things in the time it is usually dedicated to it. Stay away from screens past 11. Listen to ebooks for falling asleep. Use the good sleep energy to finish work stuff earlier, do more exercise, etc. Break out of the vicious cycle and start a virtuous one. I still fail at doing it from time to time. I think this must feel similar to what relapsing alcoholics feel. I try to not be too hard on myself and keep trying.
- elboru 6y ago
  I would recommend reading “Atomic habits” it’s a small and easy book to read. It has a lot of “aha” moments were stuff you already know click in your mind on how to develop good habits and remove bad habits, it provides good guidance.
  - jraby3 6y ago
    I second this book. I also think being sleep deprived destroys your willpower. So getting enough sleep for a few nights, perhaps on the weekend, and then trying to keep a streak going. Additionally I’ve had a lot of success using a habit tracking app (I love way of life but habitica is also great and free). I would also set an alarm every night.
  - cap66 6y ago
    I would also recommend this app called “Intellect,” it is designed to help individuals beat their bad habits and alleviate their personal psychological problems!
    - TheLegace 6y ago
hvs 6y ago
I bet this is pretty common among parents during the pandemic. Between homeschooling/work, the only time a lot of have is late at night.
- woliveirajr 6y ago
  And during this time slot for oneself, somethings can't be done as it was done earlier. Physical stores are closed, sometimes there isn't enough space to watch your TV in the desired volume, you can't go to your yard and do your wood-working hobby. Even when you find/trade your time, it's not the same time.
- chefkoch 6y ago
  Even without the pandemic, i just need 2 hours of me time when the kids are all sleeping. As most parents know, they often don't go to sleep as easy as one wishes so my own shedule gets moved further back.
strangegecko 6y ago
I follow a similar pattern, but a major component for me is anhedonia / depression. I don't have anything in my life that is fulfilling or exciting or fun. I delay going to bed, both hoping to suddenly feel that spark of excitement for something, and feeling reluctant to go to bed in this unsatisified state.
- eru 6y ago
  Tried stimulants?
  - strangegecko 6y ago
    I haven't done a long-term trial. The only things that are legally available here are ritalin and modafinil (only if you have narcolepsy). I tried 5mg of ritalin 2 or 3 times, it made me work and think faster and with more focus, but it also felt jittery and I'm not sure it was all that pleasurable. So based on that and on worries about causing more long-term damage I haven't tried to take it longer. Maybe I should try combining it with something that's supposed to be fun, but I don't know how I feel about doing this without some kind of a plan. E.g. combining with games that are challenging I would be worried about lowering my frustration tolerance.
    - mellavora 6y ago
      yes, and watch that stuff. I'll give you that for the first few times you actually were working and thinking faster (i.e. it wasn't subjective), but that goes away after a few weeks, at which point you might find yourself addicted. They may be good for a short term boost, but they do not provide any long-term gain.
    - eru 6y ago
      I was suggesting to try stimulants, because some people have an underlying ADHD that's causing depression or anxiety etc as a comorbidity. And for those people the standard stimulants used to treat ADHD also help with their other symptoms. I have ADHD, but never any depression. (But I have friends with those combinations.) Your reaction to Ritalin matches mine to caffeine or dexamphetamine: the dose I get jittery at is lower than the dose were I see positive effects. Luckily, Ritalin/methylphenidate works fairly well for me with rather manageable side-effects. By the way, I bet you have other options!: Caffeine is universally available. But has a bad side effect profile. You can get adrafinil over-the-counter, which is a chemical precursor to modafinil. See eg https://www.gwern.net/Modafinil https://www.gwern.net/Modafinil Nicotine is a wonder drug, too. Nicotine patches are available over-the-counter. See https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine (Please don't confuse nicotine with smoking. Smoking is still bad for you.) I am taking methylphenidate, but for long term effects, I am actually seriously considering switching to nicotine patches: Nicotine protects your brain against parkinson's, which runs in my family. But in any case, from what you describe, it doesn't necessarily sound like your depression is linked to something that stimulants can help with in the first place?
sjg007 6y ago
Here’s how you fix this. Go to bed early and wake up earlier. I do honestly believe that young adults naturally stay up later though. I think there’s an evolutionary reason for it, basically to keep the nights watch and ward off predators.
- mewpmewp2 6y ago
  I don't see how this fixes it at all? Are you suggesting they do their own things in the morning instead? They would still be sleep deprived, plus the issue is that they actually would have trouble forcing themselves to go to bed earlier as they procrastinate.
- ajsnigrutin 6y ago
  Nah... that sucks if you're trying to actually do something. When i finish everything (work, home, cook food, eat, cleanup, random household tasks,...) it's usually 8 in the evening, maybe 9. If i want to do something (hobby, personal project....), I start at 9, and work until "too late". If you go to sleep early, and wake up at (eg.) 5 in the morning, start work at 8, you have (eg.) 1 hour to get ready and commute + 2 hours of free time. If anything "goes wrong" in my project, i have to debug, retry, fix, cut and cut again (and it's still too short),... doing this in the morning,it means, that you interrupt your pleasure-work at the moment where you're most productive (and where the thing you're doing is most "fun"/fulfiling). I can always go to sleep an hour later, or two, or five... most people are not that flexible with their jobs. This is just my personal experience and opinion though.
- kiliantics 6y ago
  Here's how you fix this (and how you fix nearly any social problem): organise with your fellow workers and demand better work conditions for all workers from your government and employers, with the threat of general strike across all industries.
- jjoonathan 6y ago
  I'm a night owl (sleep 12-8am) who occasionally experiences season-long hard constraints that force me into early bird schedules (sleep 8-4am). Whenever the temperatures get high and I don't have access to an air-conditioned gym, I have to get up for the daily temperature minimum, whatever it takes. Since this happens for an entire summer, it gives me the chance to adapt to the schedule and optimize around it. The early bird schedule didn't reveal an untapped reserve of morning energy. It didn't shift my late night energy burst into the morning. In fact, it didn't shift the productivity burst at all -- it eliminated it. This wasn't for lack of sunlight and exercise; getting up early to run outside was the entire point. It wasn't for lack of cold showers, which were remarkably pleasant after suffering in the heat. It wasn't due to a poor diet, or meal scheduling, which I experimented with. To hear the early birds talk about it, these exercises should have transformed me into a superior moral being of hyper-optimized productivity, overflowing with perfection in every aspect of spirituality and performance. That isn't what happened. Not in part, not in whole. The net effect was small and negative. I traded high-energy night hours for low-energy morning hours. It was worth it to access the daily temperature minimum, but I wasn't able to make the morning schedule work for me, despite having every intent and incentive to do so. When the constraint lifted, I moved back to my regular schedule and recaptured its benefits. Night owls: try the early bird schedule, there are enough people who report benefits from switching that you owe it a solid try. Early birds: tips and anecdotes are fine, but frame them in terms of what works for you. Cut the sanctimonious bullshit. It isn't helpful, it isn't appreciated, and it isn't appropriate.
underseacables 6y ago
It’s interesting the use of the aggressive language “revenge“ And “retaliatory” which seems to have a negative charge. I wonder if it is due to the culture of China, its communist leaning, or something deeper that looks at personal leisure time as a bad thing.
- barkingcat 6y ago
  You might have misunderstood. The term that is being described here is kind of like a meme-phrase/word. Like in the article said, it was likely invented years ago, probably in the Chinese version of twitter/social media/etc. The revenge and retaliatory terms are more subversive than negative. The retaliation is against losing control of your own time. The revenge is against your corporate-master, your boss, the pointy-haired boss, the Communist political officer, "the Man", late stage capitalism - whatever you want to call it I don't think the sentiment is limited to China and communism, etc. and that's why this article struck a chord enough for it to get onto hnews. That said, the subversive nature of the wording is very very Chinese. Not just Communist Chinese, but this type of subversive back-talk has been alive for many many generations since the imperial days, where you had to talk in circles in order to not be executed.
- throwaway2245 6y ago
  Considering that these are English language words, I don't think a linguistic analysis is going to give you insight into Chinese culture. The exact choice of words used in translation is largely going to be a reflection of the English language. Also, what's the equivalent in other languages? In English, wouldn't we say 'self-sabotage'?
- kerblang 6y ago
  Interesting that the most downvoted comment is the only one concerned with China instead of "Yeah but let's talk about me!"... China has a culture of "labor" as the symbol of one's personal worth, and this ties into the Maoist/Communist ideal of empowering _labor_. In America, "idleness" might be the _reward_ of labor, or even a _kind_ of labor: thinking, imagining, talking, creating ideas themselves: "idle" labor. In America, physical labor is respected, but probably more _rewarded_ is one's talent for idle labor, especially nowadays. In China, the labor is its own reward, and idleness is "evil" - maybe nobody believes that anymore, but they go along with it. Furthermore, China knows that ideas are easy to steal, but labor isn't.
ramshorns 6y ago
Of course, what's actually not good for you is having to work twelve hours a day. Leisure time isn't the problem.
- throwaway2245 6y ago
  The BBC has turned quite a spin in the sub-headline: "Many young Chinese workers prioritise leisure time over sleep after long work days – even though they know it’s unhealthy." It's clear even from this formulation that what's really been prioritised (and really unhealthy) is the long work day.
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  Thank fuck some countries have had workers' revolutions that limit working hours and days - and make employers pay dearly for overtime. I mean there's workarounds like the gig economy, but for most people things are still pretty good.
  - Al-Khwarizmi 6y ago
    Except for all the demanding jobs where you need to unofficially work outside your working hours... I live in one of those countries with a reasonable working hours limit, but I'm an academic, my partner is a doctor, both of us work "voluntarily" outside working hours. I need to prepare clases, request grants, and do research in a hypercompetitive environment where you need better CV than competitors. She needs to be up to date with the latest findings in medicine. It does work for workers in many sectors, though. I'm not criticizing working hours regulations, far from it - just saying we should probably do more than that.
    - toyg 6y ago
      You both are well-compensated for that, though. You could choose to be a mediocre academic and she could choose to be a mediocre doctor. It’s a trade-off.
      - outworlder 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
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rootusrootus 6y ago
Not that my situation is anywhere near as dire as a worker on the 996 plan in China, but I do a similar tradeoff. During work I also help the kids get through their school day, so my workday gets a bit longer, then after that I have my own schooling in the evening, and then there's no time left. So I steal it from sleep time or else I get nothing at all. Can't tell you how much I look forward to 1) being done with OMSCS, and 2) the pandemic ending and the kids going back to in-person school. Never going to complain about teacher salaries again (not that I really ever did, but still...)
- thrav 6y ago
  I finished OMSCS in April. I was surprised to find that I just oscillated between trying to start the 10 different projects that had been waiting for me to finish, and doing absolutely nothing because I finally didn’t have to. I ended up going through some material and building a trading bot because I never got a chance to take ML4T. My wife was incredulous that I was doing more coursework after graduating.
emptyparadise 6y ago
I always find myself drifting towards night hours. I really wish I could shift my schedule by around 4 hours, starting and ending my day later.
anonymousDan 6y ago
As a way of breaking this cycle, I've recently been considering going to bed earlier (e.g. 9-10pm), and then getting up at 5-6am, BUT with the proviso I can do whatever I want between 5 and 8, with no pressure to be productive (e.g. binge on Netflix for 3 hours). I just need to convince my wife to do the same :) Has anyone tried something like this?
- InitialLastName 6y ago
  I do this (allocate more unproductive time in the mornings) and it's great. I tend to wake up at about 7 and wake up slowly, browse the news and/or play a game until I start working at about 10. I've operated that way since I was a kid (with some exceptions), and find that every day is much better when the mornings contain no stress.
- draw_down 6y ago
  I love the morning, it’s the best time of day. I naturally tend to wake up quite early and have my whole life. However this is the time when I most prefer to do chores. It feels nice doing them in the morning, where later in the day I tend not to have the energy.
- Swizec 6y ago
  I made that switch earlier this year. Huge boost in productivity and happiness. The tricky part is making sure you don’t pick up the phone before 10am. Too easy to wander over to HN and write about how much this sleep schedule switch helped. For me mornings are great for deep work (usually) because my mind isn’t full of other people’s crap yet.
- 55555 6y ago
  That sounds good because I think most people are more likely to "waste their time" at night rather than as soon as they get out of bed in the morning. You just don't get up and immediately start eating cake and watching Netflix.
- kiliantics 6y ago
  I am trying the opposite. Wake up at 7, and focus exclusively on productive work until around noon, then if I am successful (I wasn't today), I allow the rest of the day to be guilt-free whatever I choose to do.
Sharlin 6y ago
I mean, "me time" is not optional. How can life even be worth living if it's just a cycle of work and sleep?
- prower 6y ago
  Thank you. The most surprising bit of info is how any of this is surprising. OF COURSE I sacrifice sleep for leisure. I would be happy to sacrifice work instead, but guess what?
- SamBam 6y ago
  That's very true. However, the activities described in the article -- "Rao would stay up surfing the internet, reading the news and watching online videos until well after midnight" -- don't sound like the kind of quality "me time" that makes life more worth living. I say this as someone trapped in a similar cycle. My wife and I are exhausted after both working from home and pandemic parenting/homeschooling every day. By the time the kids are asleep (10:30 for the older one) we "need" some time to veg on the couch, and end up going to bed at 11:30, when really we would have been better off going to bed 45 minutes earlier. But the "me time" trap makes us somehow believe that the hour or so we spend on our phones is necessary for us, when in fact it's stupid, wasted time, reading about politics or being on Twitter of whatever. (Ok, we also have been teaching ourselves the piano, and playing chess and stuff, but many nights we still feel like we "deserve" some brain-dead "me time.")
  - Sharlin 6y ago
    I'm totally not convinced that surfing the internet or watching videos, however aimlessly, is somehow of lesser quality when it comes to relaxing. Especially given that, as you said, many people simply don't appear to have any mental energy left to do anything more "productive" after a workday, never mind a workday AND childcare. Of course, that's again a problem caused by work, not procrastination, but I very much challenge the notion that it's good for you to worry about whether your leisure time is of high enough quality! Now, I do agree that social media and other things in the digital world can be actually addictive and psychologically harmful, but given the aforementioned state of mental exhaustion I'm totally not surprised that people should get hooked on things that are designed to continuously give your brain small rewards with minimum effort spent on your part.
peletiah 6y ago
As a parent I can relate...
davebryand 6y ago
That this is needed in one’s life is a sign that you are probably wasting your life.
- monkeynotes 6y ago
  School sets you up for this mindset. I don't think many people realize that there is more to a life than achieving or being productive. It's all good if that's what you actually enjoy, but if it's making you miserable you are indeed wasting your life. Knowing this should shake you awake, knowing you are miserable because of what you are currently doing should provoke a change, not seek some way to work with your misery.
xhrpost 6y ago
I struggle with this a lot and have been wondering recently what it is that causes it, so it's refreshing seeing such an article today and knowing it's not just me. Seems that my hunch is at least somewhat correct, that I just want more "me time". I feel a bit bad in that I don't have a tough 12hr schedule like some but still exhibit this behavior. I think its partially due to the fact that a lot of other things I do outside of work, my mind doesn't perceive as restful/me-time. Ex. I enjoy running, but exercise still feels like an obligation more than a privilege. Combine that with other social/communal obligations and certain errands and a lot of my non-work time ends up being for fulfilling the demands of some other authority concept. Then, I've let my hobbies wane over the years (especially in terms of what I can do inside during Covid) so the easiest thing I go to is just scrolling on my phone. Which feels like its for me but is ultimately really draining. Trying a couple approaches to this. 1.) Anything BUT mindless browsing. Seriously, no guilt even if it's just a show on Netflix, buying one item at the store even though I "should" just batch shop, whatever as long as its self directed. 2.) Eek out that time and make it a priority, while still prioritizing sleep. Allow certain tasks that I "should" get done today to push out.
bjarneh 6y ago
> Many young Chinese workers prioritise leisure time over sleep after long work days I have to admit, I'm like the young Chinese
duxup 6y ago
I used to work tech support Midnight to 8am. I'd get home exhausted ... but I honestly couldn't sleep unless I did some 'non work' a game or something at home away from work. I didn't feel stressed by work or anything, it was a great job with great people.... I just felt driven to do something ELSE no matter how tired I was.
drewcon 6y ago
Sounds like they're just behaving like parents with young kids. I routinely stay up too late just to have some quiet, waking conscious alone time after a full day of work and time with the kids (which are now hopelessly intertwined).
- fatnoah 6y ago
  >Sounds like they're just behaving like parents with young kids. That was my thought as well. After the wife and kid (not so young now) get to bed is when I actually get quiet time to myself, which I need to unwind from the day. It's actually gotten much worse due to WFH. My daily commute (via transit) provided some of that quiet time to gear up in the morning and unwind in the evening.
  - saalweachter 6y ago
    I'm hoping to do my 90 minute train commute twice a week after this is all over.
    - drewcon 6y ago
      We have the option of remote, flex (hot desk), or office (perm desk) when this is all over. Before I was a 3-4 days in the office, 1-2 at home kind of guy. I’m planning on being a 5 days a week in the office guy so hard when this dies down and I can get a shot.
  - drewcon 6y ago
    So much worse. I never thought the 45 min spent in the car was actually useful time! Turns out sitting in traffic was basically meditation.
    - fatnoah 6y ago
      Hah, 45 minutes in the car is VERY different than 45 minutes split between sitting on a bus/train and random waiting in between.
Al-Khwarizmi 6y ago
As someone with a demanding job that often takes the whole day (plus now, a kid) I do this very often. I didn't even know it had a name. The piece seems to imply it's a wrong choice, because it would be better to just go to sleep. Maybe in many cases it is. For me, that's not the case, because if I don't get some "me time", I just can't sleep well. I'd rather go to bed at 1:30 and sleep well than go at 12 and spend two hours rolling in the bed because I'm still thinking about work and haven't had time to "unwind" my mind. So I don't think it's a bad decision, and it doesn't feel like "revenge" either, just some needed personal upkeep time (like sleeping itself). Of course, I know it would be best to remove the stress, so as to have time both for myself and sleep and not have to choose the lesser of two evils... easier said than done, though.
throwawayyipyip 6y ago
It may raise eyebrows, but with the current WFH culture, I simply take naps during work time. If I feel tired, then it's in my and my employers' best interest for me to nap since I will be much more productive for the next few hours. I've tested this also by not sleeping, and my code becomes worse and I need to rewrite a lot of it anyway. In fairness, I do try to go to bed on time, but my issue is that I sometimes only sleep 5 to 6 hours. My body just won't sleep, so I make up for it during work time. It is what it is.
- umvi 6y ago
  I'm not sure I completely agree with this logic because you are saying "if I neglect <X> in personal time, then it is in my and my employer's best interests for me to address <X> during work time (because otherwise I will be less productive)" However, X could be a wide range of things. To use an extreme example, I could neglect fixing my furnace during personal time, and thus I can do it on my employer's dime so that I don't die of carbon monoxide poisoning while WFH (I would be unproductive if I am dead)...
  - nubb 6y ago
    The key to making the parent post make sense is to not think of time as personal/work time. My job is 100% project based so I don’t need to be owned by my job during the 9-5 hours. If I nap all day and work nights and my projects all complete, who cares? I understand not all roles fit this model.
  - glasss 6y ago
    I think I agree with their logic more than I would have thought on my own. I would be less productive at work if I were stressing out about a personal item that I would normally handle during "personal time". I've had fantastic employees have horrible weeks / months because they refused to take a few days off to deal with personal items. As an employer, I would definitely say it is in my best long term interest to have an employee who is happy and doesn't have problems at home. If that means someone I'm paying 6 figures needs every Friday off for a few months then so be it. Or in this case, taking a nap whenever they need to, provided it's not a 4 hour nap everyday at 1 PM.
baxtr 6y ago
This is exactly what Netflix is betting on. ” Not Amazon Video, not YouTube, not even old-fashioned broadcasters. No, according to the company's chief executive, Reed Hastings, Netflix's biggest competitor is the pesky human need to close your eyes and sleep for a third of the day.” https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/18/netflix-competitor-sleep-uber-facebook https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/18/netflix-c...
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  I don't really get why Netflix would want to make customers watch more. I mean, you pay the same price whether you watch or not. They logically should care about making people watch a minimum amount that ensures they keep paying, but beyond that it's worthless.
crispyambulance 6y ago
I've found it helpful to wake up at the same (early) time everyday no matter what and then rely on my body to "tell me" when it's time for sleep. This keeps me lined up on a steady circadian rhythm. If it gets disrupted, that's OK, it snaps back in day or two as long as I stick to the same wake-up time. It's much harder to do this with a prescribed "bed time" if you're not ready, it's really hard to sleep.
coldtea 6y ago
>“I was almost depressed,” she says. “I was deprived of all my personal life.” After her shift, which sometimes included overtime, she had a small window to eat, shower and go to bed – but she sacrificed sleep to eke out some personal time. Often, Rao would stay up surfing the internet, reading the news and watching online videos until well after midnight. Same here. There's not much "psychology" mystery to it, humans are not robots, we need some fun/me/entertainment/wind-down/-time, not just to sleep, work, and eat.
- mym1990 6y ago
  Sleeping feels so fleeting, you close your eyes and poof there go 8 hours(not to say that it isn't beneficial or necessary of course). To work 8 hours, sleep, and then work another 8 hours felt not much different than just working 16 hours with a small break in the middle. So I would stay up for a while to have fun at the expense of the next day...and probably many days thereafter.
  - kayodelycaon 6y ago
    It gets worse when sleep isn't fleeting. Waking up every two hours and then struggling to get back to sleep really draws out the misery of working long hours. Note: Before anyone tries to give me advice, my depressive episodes cause primary insomnia. Whatever you think will work, won't. It's been tried.
    - shakhahxhcj 6y ago
      Ever tried mirtazapine? It’s an antidepressant that’s also a sedative. You take it every night before bed. Works great for me.
      - kayodelycaon 6y ago
        What part of no advice... sigh No. I'd like to avoid my psychiatrist sending me to the ER again.
    - 6y ago
darepublic 6y ago
Interesting article and it definitely resonates. It's cool when a private thought is given a name and illuminated by someone else. Biggest instance of that for me was the whole ASMR movement.
Ciantic 6y ago
What would happen if she, or like minded people decided to demand eight-hour day in workplaces? (Like the Eight-hour day movement during industrialising Britain and elsewhere) Is there any way for them to even make demands without being squashed?
scott_s 6y ago
I'm not ready for it to be morning yet. That's what I would think during my early days of graduate school, when I would spend over 12 hours a day on campus, juggling courses, course work, my first foray into research, as well as teaching assistant responsibilities. At night, I would often just listen to music and do some light internet browsing for an hour or two, despite being tired.
yourabstraction 6y ago
Everyone is talking about shifting time around by doing things like getting up earlier, but that doesn't get around a fundamental problem of not enjoying the working part of your day. You still have the same amount of time, just shifted to a different end, and maybe you're a bit better off that way, but it's still the minority of the day. The real solution is to figure out how to love a larger percentage of your day. A lot of this has to do with cultivating the right attitude and not getting exploited by others. At work, don't allow your employer to work you to the bone; work at a steady and enjoyable pace, take lots of breaks to socialize with colleagues, get coffee, go for walks, eat a long lunch in the park, etc. I get that some of you have draconian bosses and this won't work, but there are many on here that it will work for that aren't taking advantage of it. I also bet you might find that you start doing better work, because you feel better and have more creative energy and mental stamina. Now, you have to figure out how to enjoy other parts of your day too. What about that crappy commute, can you move closer and bike or walk in? I've lived the majority of my life (mid 30s now) waiting for "my time". I remember growing up I just loved to lay in bed at night and think. This was well before smartphones, I'd literally just lay there and think for hours, because that was the most "my time" of the whole day and I loved it. But as I've gotten older I've realized the entire day is my time and it's my responsibility to make it as enjoyable as I can.
- malux85 6y ago
  > The real solution is to figure out how to love a larger percentage of your day. A lot of this has to do with cultivating the right attitude and not getting exploited by others. At work, don't allow your employer to work you to the bone; work at a steady and enjoyable pace, take lots of breaks to socialize with colleagues, get coffee, go for walks, eat a long lunch in the park, etc. ^ This people, THIS. Programmers are in massive demand right now, especially skilled ones. You dont have to work to the bone, there are thousands and thousands of jobs out there. You are harder to replace than you imagine. Those "must do" barriers are largely in your head, and if they are not (they really, really are) then MOVE.
  - bradlys 6y ago
    Don’t overexaggerate the facts. Programmers are /not/ in massive demand. Even skilled ones. It’s why there’s essentially no compensation growth for the last few years outside of FAANG. All growth has been through stock. The sheer massive number of people entering the field and how hard it is to get a job as an engineer should make this more obvious. If massive demand were true, we wouldn’t have ever increasingly difficult interview practices. There are better jobs out there if you’re getting worked to the bone but it’s not like everyone is going to get $400k and wonderful work. That’s still reserved for the top 5% of engineers. If you’re in the bay, you have a very slim amount of options unless you got your home 30 years ago.
cbanek 6y ago
“One of the most important parts of recovery from work is sleep. However, sleep is affected by how well we detach,” This. Plus, I have done this in the past and found that it just takes time to wind down after working, no matter how tired I am. It's at least 3 hours for me. It seems more the problem is there aren't enough hours in the day to work that much. But sadly, that rarely changes, and if I prioritize work over life, it will simply take over.
SeanFerree 6y ago
I always stay up too late. I find it such a stress-free time when everyone else is sleeping. I am usually tired the next day :(
dandare 6y ago
"Privileged" European here: it is totally beyond me how can anyone be any productive on a 996 schedule. I can't write code for more than 4-6 hours a day, 5 days per week. I would probably not be a good programmer if I was born in China.
- outworlder 6y ago
  Let me tell you a secret: no one can be productive in such a regimen. It doesn't stop companies from trying. This is not just a Chinese thing. The US is not much different.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    Which is so blatantly obvious it tells us something: long hours are not about productivity no matter how much anyone claims they are. Long hours are about power. Some people really want to own other people and in modern societies that shun actual slavery they seek it by other means.
b0rsuk 6y ago
In my last job, boss would pretty often come up with something important to do near the end of my shift. Watch out for that. How do you deal when your employer (it was a small company) engages with you personally when your shift is coming to an end? Discussing, planning, that sort of thing. I could set my borders with others well enough, but at workplace it's a delicate thing.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
anigbrowl 6y ago
Can we have an article about the psychology of wringing your employees dry and pretending that 72 hour weeks are a normal or reasonable thing? While China is nominally communist (insofar as all other political parties are banned) in practice the economy there is based on hypercapitalism coupled with industrial policy and strict regulation; it's very apparent that workers have little to no 'control over the means of production' or any kind of ownership or autonomy within their workplace. It's 'communist' in the same way that North Korea is 'democratic' - the political ideology just decorates an authoritarian power structure and has little to do with the everyday life of the population.
a4444f 6y ago
"Many Chinese prioritise long work days over leisure time or sleep – even though they know it’s unhealthy. What’s driving this behaviour?" Some typos in the summary, fixed.
golemiprague 6y ago
I don't know, everybody here got excuses, kids, boss, housework whatever. I find myself just being lazy, procrastinating and not doing what I suppose to do. Can't blame anything or anyone, it is just me.
blunte 6y ago
Oh my god. I never knew this had a name, but it very much fits my behavior. I crave solitude and control over my own time and attention, and the only time to get that is while the rest of my timezone sleeps.
fogetti 6y ago
> But she does advise employees to talk to their colleagues and collectively approach their boss, with evidence, if they want to ask for change. Yeah, because that isn't what the labor unions are for, am I right? I guess people enjoy living in today's neloiberal utopian nightmare rather than supporting labor rights and labor unions.
oxfeed65261 6y ago
Glad I’m not alone in having immediately assumed that the title referred to children. FYI for toddler-parents: it gets worse before it gets better. Then you give up and all is bliss.
JSavageOne 6y ago
I don't think it takes a PhD in psychology to recognize that people like to live their own lives and not just commute to/from office, eat, shower, repeat, fast forward 40 years, and die.
twirlock 6y ago
People need to stop letting themselves be conned into treating their job as a moral impetus while their employers are solely profit motivated. It is literally propaganda when you internalize a corporation's "values" while the people at the top are making 10x as much money and would still gladly pay you less to work more.
nonbirithm 6y ago
> In Matthew Walker’s book Why We Sleep: Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams, the neuroscientist is blunt: “The shorter your sleep, the shorter your life span.” I find it sad that people are still quoting this book. Many claims in this book have been debunked online[0]. The misinformation may even cause people to get too much sleep causing different kinds of issues. As for me, this has caused me to come back with an impression of "we don't really know why we sleep." I wish there was a definitive source of information on this as popular as this book, but which is actually reputable. Now I just end up doubting my sleep patterns, waking up naturally and still being left unsure why I feel tired. [0] https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/

359 points by sebwi 6y ago

umvi 6y ago

I find myself doing this too. My kids put such a large constraint on my free time that between work and family I only have 3 hours or less per day to do everything, so I am tempted to sacrifice sleep to gain a bit more book reading, side project, or video game time.

jansan 6y ago
You will get more time once your children grow up, which will in hindsight happen much faster than you think.
Loughla 6y ago
Why not include your family in your 'me time'? I always had my children with me when I was doing 'me things'. Including reading, video games, woodworking, hunting, hiking, and even meditation. For reference, I'm a super introverted person, and really need alone time to recharge my batteries. It's a nice way to instill values while also enjoying them while they're small. I mean, they will grow up eventually (really fast actually) and won't want to hang out with you at some point, so even if you "can't" do your 'me time' with them, you will have access to it again, eventually.
- umvi 6y ago
  I do try... with some success. My kids are still very small though so they get bored after a few minutes if I am reading out loud from anything other than a children's book. We are still in the "high entropy" stage of childhood with most of our kids.
- redisman 6y ago
  Anything outside I include the kiddos but I'm playing DOOM and Sekiro right now so I can't exactly have a toddler watch me decapitate demons/samurais and I'd rather have a beer etc. after the kids are sleeping. When they get older we'll probably play some Mario Kart/Minecraft style stuff together. My 'me' time is exclusively after the kids are sleeping anyway.
snegu 6y ago
From just reading the headline, I thought this article was going to be about little kids refusing to go to bed! I get so frustrated when my toddler won't go to sleep, exactly because it cuts into that precious free time.

dusted 6y ago

I'm also doing this, big time.. Between a full-time job, building a new home, renovating another and having a wife and kid, there's not any "me" time until past wife+kids bedtime. I only get energy from being alone and doing stuff on my computer, so I trade sleep for time every night.

reeeeee 6y ago
Nothing beats having some time alone to work on your personal projects. Especially after wasting a full day working with enterprise code that was written by an offshore company six years ago.
- Taylor_OD 6y ago
  You okay?
dcolkitt 6y ago
> I only get energy from being alone and doing stuff on my computer, so I trade sleep for time every night. I certainly understand the sentiment. But I'd question is this actually true? Have you considered doing a Gwern-style self-experiment to quantify the impact? Maybe try something like your current routine for two weeks, then rigorously maxing out sleep for two weeks. Take systematic surveys of your subjective wellbeing and energy levels throughout the day. Then compare the two periods. You might be surprised to learn that what you think is giving you energy, is actually taking it away. I think as humans we tend to have very bad introspective intuition about what actually improves our energy and mood. I know I certainly do. Being scientific about it can reveal some surprising results.
- Pet_Ant 6y ago
  > You might be surprised to learn that what you think is giving you energy, is actually taking it away. I feel like you are confusing physical energy with spiritual energy. The stuff that makes you feel motivated and driven and excited, versus just capable of doing work.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

otikik 6y ago

No mention of how to get out of this unhealthy habit. I'm struggling with this myself. Some of my conclusions so far: * When I am sleep-deprived I am less productive. So I spend more time doing "work". Then I have less time for everything else I want to do (family, cooking, sport). So I take more time away from sleep. And the cycle repeats. Sleep deprivation is self-perpetuating. * What I do at night, when I am exhausted, in 2 hours can be done in the morning in half an hour. * I get angrier and negative much more easily when I am sleep deprived. For my particular case: limit the time dedicated to "work" and do the other things in the time it is usually dedicated to it. Stay away from screens past 11. Listen to ebooks for falling asleep. Use the good sleep energy to finish work stuff earlier, do more exercise, etc. Break out of the vicious cycle and start a virtuous one. I still fail at doing it from time to time. I think this must feel similar to what relapsing alcoholics feel. I try to not be too hard on myself and keep trying.

elboru 6y ago
I would recommend reading “Atomic habits” it’s a small and easy book to read. It has a lot of “aha” moments were stuff you already know click in your mind on how to develop good habits and remove bad habits, it provides good guidance.
- jraby3 6y ago
  I second this book. I also think being sleep deprived destroys your willpower. So getting enough sleep for a few nights, perhaps on the weekend, and then trying to keep a streak going. Additionally I’ve had a lot of success using a habit tracking app (I love way of life but habitica is also great and free). I would also set an alarm every night.
- cap66 6y ago
  I would also recommend this app called “Intellect,” it is designed to help individuals beat their bad habits and alleviate their personal psychological problems!
  - TheLegace 6y ago

hvs 6y ago

I bet this is pretty common among parents during the pandemic. Between homeschooling/work, the only time a lot of have is late at night.

woliveirajr 6y ago
And during this time slot for oneself, somethings can't be done as it was done earlier. Physical stores are closed, sometimes there isn't enough space to watch your TV in the desired volume, you can't go to your yard and do your wood-working hobby. Even when you find/trade your time, it's not the same time.
chefkoch 6y ago
Even without the pandemic, i just need 2 hours of me time when the kids are all sleeping. As most parents know, they often don't go to sleep as easy as one wishes so my own shedule gets moved further back.

strangegecko 6y ago

I follow a similar pattern, but a major component for me is anhedonia / depression. I don't have anything in my life that is fulfilling or exciting or fun. I delay going to bed, both hoping to suddenly feel that spark of excitement for something, and feeling reluctant to go to bed in this unsatisified state.

eru 6y ago
Tried stimulants?
- strangegecko 6y ago
  I haven't done a long-term trial. The only things that are legally available here are ritalin and modafinil (only if you have narcolepsy). I tried 5mg of ritalin 2 or 3 times, it made me work and think faster and with more focus, but it also felt jittery and I'm not sure it was all that pleasurable. So based on that and on worries about causing more long-term damage I haven't tried to take it longer. Maybe I should try combining it with something that's supposed to be fun, but I don't know how I feel about doing this without some kind of a plan. E.g. combining with games that are challenging I would be worried about lowering my frustration tolerance.
  - mellavora 6y ago
    yes, and watch that stuff. I'll give you that for the first few times you actually were working and thinking faster (i.e. it wasn't subjective), but that goes away after a few weeks, at which point you might find yourself addicted. They may be good for a short term boost, but they do not provide any long-term gain.
  - eru 6y ago
    I was suggesting to try stimulants, because some people have an underlying ADHD that's causing depression or anxiety etc as a comorbidity. And for those people the standard stimulants used to treat ADHD also help with their other symptoms. I have ADHD, but never any depression. (But I have friends with those combinations.) Your reaction to Ritalin matches mine to caffeine or dexamphetamine: the dose I get jittery at is lower than the dose were I see positive effects. Luckily, Ritalin/methylphenidate works fairly well for me with rather manageable side-effects. By the way, I bet you have other options!: Caffeine is universally available. But has a bad side effect profile. You can get adrafinil over-the-counter, which is a chemical precursor to modafinil. See eg https://www.gwern.net/Modafinil https://www.gwern.net/Modafinil Nicotine is a wonder drug, too. Nicotine patches are available over-the-counter. See https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine (Please don't confuse nicotine with smoking. Smoking is still bad for you.) I am taking methylphenidate, but for long term effects, I am actually seriously considering switching to nicotine patches: Nicotine protects your brain against parkinson's, which runs in my family. But in any case, from what you describe, it doesn't necessarily sound like your depression is linked to something that stimulants can help with in the first place?

sjg007 6y ago

Here’s how you fix this. Go to bed early and wake up earlier. I do honestly believe that young adults naturally stay up later though. I think there’s an evolutionary reason for it, basically to keep the nights watch and ward off predators.

mewpmewp2 6y ago
I don't see how this fixes it at all? Are you suggesting they do their own things in the morning instead? They would still be sleep deprived, plus the issue is that they actually would have trouble forcing themselves to go to bed earlier as they procrastinate.
ajsnigrutin 6y ago
Nah... that sucks if you're trying to actually do something. When i finish everything (work, home, cook food, eat, cleanup, random household tasks,...) it's usually 8 in the evening, maybe 9. If i want to do something (hobby, personal project....), I start at 9, and work until "too late". If you go to sleep early, and wake up at (eg.) 5 in the morning, start work at 8, you have (eg.) 1 hour to get ready and commute + 2 hours of free time. If anything "goes wrong" in my project, i have to debug, retry, fix, cut and cut again (and it's still too short),... doing this in the morning,it means, that you interrupt your pleasure-work at the moment where you're most productive (and where the thing you're doing is most "fun"/fulfiling). I can always go to sleep an hour later, or two, or five... most people are not that flexible with their jobs. This is just my personal experience and opinion though.
kiliantics 6y ago
Here's how you fix this (and how you fix nearly any social problem): organise with your fellow workers and demand better work conditions for all workers from your government and employers, with the threat of general strike across all industries.
jjoonathan 6y ago
I'm a night owl (sleep 12-8am) who occasionally experiences season-long hard constraints that force me into early bird schedules (sleep 8-4am). Whenever the temperatures get high and I don't have access to an air-conditioned gym, I have to get up for the daily temperature minimum, whatever it takes. Since this happens for an entire summer, it gives me the chance to adapt to the schedule and optimize around it. The early bird schedule didn't reveal an untapped reserve of morning energy. It didn't shift my late night energy burst into the morning. In fact, it didn't shift the productivity burst at all -- it eliminated it. This wasn't for lack of sunlight and exercise; getting up early to run outside was the entire point. It wasn't for lack of cold showers, which were remarkably pleasant after suffering in the heat. It wasn't due to a poor diet, or meal scheduling, which I experimented with. To hear the early birds talk about it, these exercises should have transformed me into a superior moral being of hyper-optimized productivity, overflowing with perfection in every aspect of spirituality and performance. That isn't what happened. Not in part, not in whole. The net effect was small and negative. I traded high-energy night hours for low-energy morning hours. It was worth it to access the daily temperature minimum, but I wasn't able to make the morning schedule work for me, despite having every intent and incentive to do so. When the constraint lifted, I moved back to my regular schedule and recaptured its benefits. Night owls: try the early bird schedule, there are enough people who report benefits from switching that you owe it a solid try. Early birds: tips and anecdotes are fine, but frame them in terms of what works for you. Cut the sanctimonious bullshit. It isn't helpful, it isn't appreciated, and it isn't appropriate.

underseacables 6y ago

It’s interesting the use of the aggressive language “revenge“ And “retaliatory” which seems to have a negative charge. I wonder if it is due to the culture of China, its communist leaning, or something deeper that looks at personal leisure time as a bad thing.

barkingcat 6y ago
You might have misunderstood. The term that is being described here is kind of like a meme-phrase/word. Like in the article said, it was likely invented years ago, probably in the Chinese version of twitter/social media/etc. The revenge and retaliatory terms are more subversive than negative. The retaliation is against losing control of your own time. The revenge is against your corporate-master, your boss, the pointy-haired boss, the Communist political officer, "the Man", late stage capitalism - whatever you want to call it I don't think the sentiment is limited to China and communism, etc. and that's why this article struck a chord enough for it to get onto hnews. That said, the subversive nature of the wording is very very Chinese. Not just Communist Chinese, but this type of subversive back-talk has been alive for many many generations since the imperial days, where you had to talk in circles in order to not be executed.
throwaway2245 6y ago
Considering that these are English language words, I don't think a linguistic analysis is going to give you insight into Chinese culture. The exact choice of words used in translation is largely going to be a reflection of the English language. Also, what's the equivalent in other languages? In English, wouldn't we say 'self-sabotage'?
kerblang 6y ago
Interesting that the most downvoted comment is the only one concerned with China instead of "Yeah but let's talk about me!"... China has a culture of "labor" as the symbol of one's personal worth, and this ties into the Maoist/Communist ideal of empowering _labor_. In America, "idleness" might be the _reward_ of labor, or even a _kind_ of labor: thinking, imagining, talking, creating ideas themselves: "idle" labor. In America, physical labor is respected, but probably more _rewarded_ is one's talent for idle labor, especially nowadays. In China, the labor is its own reward, and idleness is "evil" - maybe nobody believes that anymore, but they go along with it. Furthermore, China knows that ideas are easy to steal, but labor isn't.

ramshorns 6y ago

Of course, what's actually not good for you is having to work twelve hours a day. Leisure time isn't the problem.

throwaway2245 6y ago
The BBC has turned quite a spin in the sub-headline: "Many young Chinese workers prioritise leisure time over sleep after long work days – even though they know it’s unhealthy." It's clear even from this formulation that what's really been prioritised (and really unhealthy) is the long work day.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
Thank fuck some countries have had workers' revolutions that limit working hours and days - and make employers pay dearly for overtime. I mean there's workarounds like the gig economy, but for most people things are still pretty good.
- Al-Khwarizmi 6y ago
  Except for all the demanding jobs where you need to unofficially work outside your working hours... I live in one of those countries with a reasonable working hours limit, but I'm an academic, my partner is a doctor, both of us work "voluntarily" outside working hours. I need to prepare clases, request grants, and do research in a hypercompetitive environment where you need better CV than competitors. She needs to be up to date with the latest findings in medicine. It does work for workers in many sectors, though. I'm not criticizing working hours regulations, far from it - just saying we should probably do more than that.
  - toyg 6y ago
    You both are well-compensated for that, though. You could choose to be a mediocre academic and she could choose to be a mediocre doctor. It’s a trade-off.
    - outworlder 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

rootusrootus 6y ago

Not that my situation is anywhere near as dire as a worker on the 996 plan in China, but I do a similar tradeoff. During work I also help the kids get through their school day, so my workday gets a bit longer, then after that I have my own schooling in the evening, and then there's no time left. So I steal it from sleep time or else I get nothing at all. Can't tell you how much I look forward to 1) being done with OMSCS, and 2) the pandemic ending and the kids going back to in-person school. Never going to complain about teacher salaries again (not that I really ever did, but still...)

thrav 6y ago
I finished OMSCS in April. I was surprised to find that I just oscillated between trying to start the 10 different projects that had been waiting for me to finish, and doing absolutely nothing because I finally didn’t have to. I ended up going through some material and building a trading bot because I never got a chance to take ML4T. My wife was incredulous that I was doing more coursework after graduating.

emptyparadise 6y ago

I always find myself drifting towards night hours. I really wish I could shift my schedule by around 4 hours, starting and ending my day later.

anonymousDan 6y ago

As a way of breaking this cycle, I've recently been considering going to bed earlier (e.g. 9-10pm), and then getting up at 5-6am, BUT with the proviso I can do whatever I want between 5 and 8, with no pressure to be productive (e.g. binge on Netflix for 3 hours). I just need to convince my wife to do the same :) Has anyone tried something like this?

InitialLastName 6y ago
I do this (allocate more unproductive time in the mornings) and it's great. I tend to wake up at about 7 and wake up slowly, browse the news and/or play a game until I start working at about 10. I've operated that way since I was a kid (with some exceptions), and find that every day is much better when the mornings contain no stress.
draw_down 6y ago
I love the morning, it’s the best time of day. I naturally tend to wake up quite early and have my whole life. However this is the time when I most prefer to do chores. It feels nice doing them in the morning, where later in the day I tend not to have the energy.
Swizec 6y ago
I made that switch earlier this year. Huge boost in productivity and happiness. The tricky part is making sure you don’t pick up the phone before 10am. Too easy to wander over to HN and write about how much this sleep schedule switch helped. For me mornings are great for deep work (usually) because my mind isn’t full of other people’s crap yet.
55555 6y ago
That sounds good because I think most people are more likely to "waste their time" at night rather than as soon as they get out of bed in the morning. You just don't get up and immediately start eating cake and watching Netflix.
kiliantics 6y ago
I am trying the opposite. Wake up at 7, and focus exclusively on productive work until around noon, then if I am successful (I wasn't today), I allow the rest of the day to be guilt-free whatever I choose to do.

Sharlin 6y ago

I mean, "me time" is not optional. How can life even be worth living if it's just a cycle of work and sleep?

prower 6y ago
Thank you. The most surprising bit of info is how any of this is surprising. OF COURSE I sacrifice sleep for leisure. I would be happy to sacrifice work instead, but guess what?
SamBam 6y ago
That's very true. However, the activities described in the article -- "Rao would stay up surfing the internet, reading the news and watching online videos until well after midnight" -- don't sound like the kind of quality "me time" that makes life more worth living. I say this as someone trapped in a similar cycle. My wife and I are exhausted after both working from home and pandemic parenting/homeschooling every day. By the time the kids are asleep (10:30 for the older one) we "need" some time to veg on the couch, and end up going to bed at 11:30, when really we would have been better off going to bed 45 minutes earlier. But the "me time" trap makes us somehow believe that the hour or so we spend on our phones is necessary for us, when in fact it's stupid, wasted time, reading about politics or being on Twitter of whatever. (Ok, we also have been teaching ourselves the piano, and playing chess and stuff, but many nights we still feel like we "deserve" some brain-dead "me time.")
- Sharlin 6y ago
  I'm totally not convinced that surfing the internet or watching videos, however aimlessly, is somehow of lesser quality when it comes to relaxing. Especially given that, as you said, many people simply don't appear to have any mental energy left to do anything more "productive" after a workday, never mind a workday AND childcare. Of course, that's again a problem caused by work, not procrastination, but I very much challenge the notion that it's good for you to worry about whether your leisure time is of high enough quality! Now, I do agree that social media and other things in the digital world can be actually addictive and psychologically harmful, but given the aforementioned state of mental exhaustion I'm totally not surprised that people should get hooked on things that are designed to continuously give your brain small rewards with minimum effort spent on your part.

peletiah 6y ago

As a parent I can relate...

davebryand 6y ago

That this is needed in one’s life is a sign that you are probably wasting your life.

monkeynotes 6y ago
School sets you up for this mindset. I don't think many people realize that there is more to a life than achieving or being productive. It's all good if that's what you actually enjoy, but if it's making you miserable you are indeed wasting your life. Knowing this should shake you awake, knowing you are miserable because of what you are currently doing should provoke a change, not seek some way to work with your misery.

xhrpost 6y ago

I struggle with this a lot and have been wondering recently what it is that causes it, so it's refreshing seeing such an article today and knowing it's not just me. Seems that my hunch is at least somewhat correct, that I just want more "me time". I feel a bit bad in that I don't have a tough 12hr schedule like some but still exhibit this behavior. I think its partially due to the fact that a lot of other things I do outside of work, my mind doesn't perceive as restful/me-time. Ex. I enjoy running, but exercise still feels like an obligation more than a privilege. Combine that with other social/communal obligations and certain errands and a lot of my non-work time ends up being for fulfilling the demands of some other authority concept. Then, I've let my hobbies wane over the years (especially in terms of what I can do inside during Covid) so the easiest thing I go to is just scrolling on my phone. Which feels like its for me but is ultimately really draining. Trying a couple approaches to this. 1.) Anything BUT mindless browsing. Seriously, no guilt even if it's just a show on Netflix, buying one item at the store even though I "should" just batch shop, whatever as long as its self directed. 2.) Eek out that time and make it a priority, while still prioritizing sleep. Allow certain tasks that I "should" get done today to push out.

bjarneh 6y ago

> Many young Chinese workers prioritise leisure time over sleep after long work days I have to admit, I'm like the young Chinese

duxup 6y ago

I used to work tech support Midnight to 8am. I'd get home exhausted ... but I honestly couldn't sleep unless I did some 'non work' a game or something at home away from work. I didn't feel stressed by work or anything, it was a great job with great people.... I just felt driven to do something ELSE no matter how tired I was.

drewcon 6y ago

Sounds like they're just behaving like parents with young kids. I routinely stay up too late just to have some quiet, waking conscious alone time after a full day of work and time with the kids (which are now hopelessly intertwined).

fatnoah 6y ago
>Sounds like they're just behaving like parents with young kids. That was my thought as well. After the wife and kid (not so young now) get to bed is when I actually get quiet time to myself, which I need to unwind from the day. It's actually gotten much worse due to WFH. My daily commute (via transit) provided some of that quiet time to gear up in the morning and unwind in the evening.
- saalweachter 6y ago
  I'm hoping to do my 90 minute train commute twice a week after this is all over.
  - drewcon 6y ago
    We have the option of remote, flex (hot desk), or office (perm desk) when this is all over. Before I was a 3-4 days in the office, 1-2 at home kind of guy. I’m planning on being a 5 days a week in the office guy so hard when this dies down and I can get a shot.
- drewcon 6y ago
  So much worse. I never thought the 45 min spent in the car was actually useful time! Turns out sitting in traffic was basically meditation.
  - fatnoah 6y ago
    Hah, 45 minutes in the car is VERY different than 45 minutes split between sitting on a bus/train and random waiting in between.

Al-Khwarizmi 6y ago

As someone with a demanding job that often takes the whole day (plus now, a kid) I do this very often. I didn't even know it had a name. The piece seems to imply it's a wrong choice, because it would be better to just go to sleep. Maybe in many cases it is. For me, that's not the case, because if I don't get some "me time", I just can't sleep well. I'd rather go to bed at 1:30 and sleep well than go at 12 and spend two hours rolling in the bed because I'm still thinking about work and haven't had time to "unwind" my mind. So I don't think it's a bad decision, and it doesn't feel like "revenge" either, just some needed personal upkeep time (like sleeping itself). Of course, I know it would be best to remove the stress, so as to have time both for myself and sleep and not have to choose the lesser of two evils... easier said than done, though.

throwawayyipyip 6y ago

It may raise eyebrows, but with the current WFH culture, I simply take naps during work time. If I feel tired, then it's in my and my employers' best interest for me to nap since I will be much more productive for the next few hours. I've tested this also by not sleeping, and my code becomes worse and I need to rewrite a lot of it anyway. In fairness, I do try to go to bed on time, but my issue is that I sometimes only sleep 5 to 6 hours. My body just won't sleep, so I make up for it during work time. It is what it is.

umvi 6y ago
I'm not sure I completely agree with this logic because you are saying "if I neglect <X> in personal time, then it is in my and my employer's best interests for me to address <X> during work time (because otherwise I will be less productive)" However, X could be a wide range of things. To use an extreme example, I could neglect fixing my furnace during personal time, and thus I can do it on my employer's dime so that I don't die of carbon monoxide poisoning while WFH (I would be unproductive if I am dead)...
- nubb 6y ago
  The key to making the parent post make sense is to not think of time as personal/work time. My job is 100% project based so I don’t need to be owned by my job during the 9-5 hours. If I nap all day and work nights and my projects all complete, who cares? I understand not all roles fit this model.
- glasss 6y ago
  I think I agree with their logic more than I would have thought on my own. I would be less productive at work if I were stressing out about a personal item that I would normally handle during "personal time". I've had fantastic employees have horrible weeks / months because they refused to take a few days off to deal with personal items. As an employer, I would definitely say it is in my best long term interest to have an employee who is happy and doesn't have problems at home. If that means someone I'm paying 6 figures needs every Friday off for a few months then so be it. Or in this case, taking a nap whenever they need to, provided it's not a 4 hour nap everyday at 1 PM.

baxtr 6y ago

This is exactly what Netflix is betting on. ” Not Amazon Video, not YouTube, not even old-fashioned broadcasters. No, according to the company's chief executive, Reed Hastings, Netflix's biggest competitor is the pesky human need to close your eyes and sleep for a third of the day.” https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/18/netflix-competitor-sleep-uber-facebook https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/18/netflix-c...

benhurmarcel 6y ago
I don't really get why Netflix would want to make customers watch more. I mean, you pay the same price whether you watch or not. They logically should care about making people watch a minimum amount that ensures they keep paying, but beyond that it's worthless.

crispyambulance 6y ago

I've found it helpful to wake up at the same (early) time everyday no matter what and then rely on my body to "tell me" when it's time for sleep. This keeps me lined up on a steady circadian rhythm. If it gets disrupted, that's OK, it snaps back in day or two as long as I stick to the same wake-up time. It's much harder to do this with a prescribed "bed time" if you're not ready, it's really hard to sleep.

coldtea 6y ago

>“I was almost depressed,” she says. “I was deprived of all my personal life.” After her shift, which sometimes included overtime, she had a small window to eat, shower and go to bed – but she sacrificed sleep to eke out some personal time. Often, Rao would stay up surfing the internet, reading the news and watching online videos until well after midnight. Same here. There's not much "psychology" mystery to it, humans are not robots, we need some fun/me/entertainment/wind-down/-time, not just to sleep, work, and eat.

mym1990 6y ago
Sleeping feels so fleeting, you close your eyes and poof there go 8 hours(not to say that it isn't beneficial or necessary of course). To work 8 hours, sleep, and then work another 8 hours felt not much different than just working 16 hours with a small break in the middle. So I would stay up for a while to have fun at the expense of the next day...and probably many days thereafter.
- kayodelycaon 6y ago
  It gets worse when sleep isn't fleeting. Waking up every two hours and then struggling to get back to sleep really draws out the misery of working long hours. Note: Before anyone tries to give me advice, my depressive episodes cause primary insomnia. Whatever you think will work, won't. It's been tried.
  - shakhahxhcj 6y ago
    Ever tried mirtazapine? It’s an antidepressant that’s also a sedative. You take it every night before bed. Works great for me.
    - kayodelycaon 6y ago
      What part of no advice... sigh No. I'd like to avoid my psychiatrist sending me to the ER again.
  - 6y ago

darepublic 6y ago

Interesting article and it definitely resonates. It's cool when a private thought is given a name and illuminated by someone else. Biggest instance of that for me was the whole ASMR movement.

Ciantic 6y ago

What would happen if she, or like minded people decided to demand eight-hour day in workplaces? (Like the Eight-hour day movement during industrialising Britain and elsewhere) Is there any way for them to even make demands without being squashed?

scott_s 6y ago

I'm not ready for it to be morning yet. That's what I would think during my early days of graduate school, when I would spend over 12 hours a day on campus, juggling courses, course work, my first foray into research, as well as teaching assistant responsibilities. At night, I would often just listen to music and do some light internet browsing for an hour or two, despite being tired.

yourabstraction 6y ago

Everyone is talking about shifting time around by doing things like getting up earlier, but that doesn't get around a fundamental problem of not enjoying the working part of your day. You still have the same amount of time, just shifted to a different end, and maybe you're a bit better off that way, but it's still the minority of the day. The real solution is to figure out how to love a larger percentage of your day. A lot of this has to do with cultivating the right attitude and not getting exploited by others. At work, don't allow your employer to work you to the bone; work at a steady and enjoyable pace, take lots of breaks to socialize with colleagues, get coffee, go for walks, eat a long lunch in the park, etc. I get that some of you have draconian bosses and this won't work, but there are many on here that it will work for that aren't taking advantage of it. I also bet you might find that you start doing better work, because you feel better and have more creative energy and mental stamina. Now, you have to figure out how to enjoy other parts of your day too. What about that crappy commute, can you move closer and bike or walk in? I've lived the majority of my life (mid 30s now) waiting for "my time". I remember growing up I just loved to lay in bed at night and think. This was well before smartphones, I'd literally just lay there and think for hours, because that was the most "my time" of the whole day and I loved it. But as I've gotten older I've realized the entire day is my time and it's my responsibility to make it as enjoyable as I can.

malux85 6y ago
> The real solution is to figure out how to love a larger percentage of your day. A lot of this has to do with cultivating the right attitude and not getting exploited by others. At work, don't allow your employer to work you to the bone; work at a steady and enjoyable pace, take lots of breaks to socialize with colleagues, get coffee, go for walks, eat a long lunch in the park, etc. ^ This people, THIS. Programmers are in massive demand right now, especially skilled ones. You dont have to work to the bone, there are thousands and thousands of jobs out there. You are harder to replace than you imagine. Those "must do" barriers are largely in your head, and if they are not (they really, really are) then MOVE.
- bradlys 6y ago
  Don’t overexaggerate the facts. Programmers are /not/ in massive demand. Even skilled ones. It’s why there’s essentially no compensation growth for the last few years outside of FAANG. All growth has been through stock. The sheer massive number of people entering the field and how hard it is to get a job as an engineer should make this more obvious. If massive demand were true, we wouldn’t have ever increasingly difficult interview practices. There are better jobs out there if you’re getting worked to the bone but it’s not like everyone is going to get $400k and wonderful work. That’s still reserved for the top 5% of engineers. If you’re in the bay, you have a very slim amount of options unless you got your home 30 years ago.

cbanek 6y ago

“One of the most important parts of recovery from work is sleep. However, sleep is affected by how well we detach,” This. Plus, I have done this in the past and found that it just takes time to wind down after working, no matter how tired I am. It's at least 3 hours for me. It seems more the problem is there aren't enough hours in the day to work that much. But sadly, that rarely changes, and if I prioritize work over life, it will simply take over.

SeanFerree 6y ago

I always stay up too late. I find it such a stress-free time when everyone else is sleeping. I am usually tired the next day :(

dandare 6y ago

"Privileged" European here: it is totally beyond me how can anyone be any productive on a 996 schedule. I can't write code for more than 4-6 hours a day, 5 days per week. I would probably not be a good programmer if I was born in China.

outworlder 6y ago
Let me tell you a secret: no one can be productive in such a regimen. It doesn't stop companies from trying. This is not just a Chinese thing. The US is not much different.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  Which is so blatantly obvious it tells us something: long hours are not about productivity no matter how much anyone claims they are. Long hours are about power. Some people really want to own other people and in modern societies that shun actual slavery they seek it by other means.

b0rsuk 6y ago

In my last job, boss would pretty often come up with something important to do near the end of my shift. Watch out for that. How do you deal when your employer (it was a small company) engages with you personally when your shift is coming to an end? Discussing, planning, that sort of thing. I could set my borders with others well enough, but at workplace it's a delicate thing.

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anigbrowl 6y ago

Can we have an article about the psychology of wringing your employees dry and pretending that 72 hour weeks are a normal or reasonable thing? While China is nominally communist (insofar as all other political parties are banned) in practice the economy there is based on hypercapitalism coupled with industrial policy and strict regulation; it's very apparent that workers have little to no 'control over the means of production' or any kind of ownership or autonomy within their workplace. It's 'communist' in the same way that North Korea is 'democratic' - the political ideology just decorates an authoritarian power structure and has little to do with the everyday life of the population.

a4444f 6y ago

"Many Chinese prioritise long work days over leisure time or sleep – even though they know it’s unhealthy. What’s driving this behaviour?" Some typos in the summary, fixed.

golemiprague 6y ago

I don't know, everybody here got excuses, kids, boss, housework whatever. I find myself just being lazy, procrastinating and not doing what I suppose to do. Can't blame anything or anyone, it is just me.

blunte 6y ago

Oh my god. I never knew this had a name, but it very much fits my behavior. I crave solitude and control over my own time and attention, and the only time to get that is while the rest of my timezone sleeps.

fogetti 6y ago

> But she does advise employees to talk to their colleagues and collectively approach their boss, with evidence, if they want to ask for change. Yeah, because that isn't what the labor unions are for, am I right? I guess people enjoy living in today's neloiberal utopian nightmare rather than supporting labor rights and labor unions.

oxfeed65261 6y ago

Glad I’m not alone in having immediately assumed that the title referred to children. FYI for toddler-parents: it gets worse before it gets better. Then you give up and all is bliss.

JSavageOne 6y ago

I don't think it takes a PhD in psychology to recognize that people like to live their own lives and not just commute to/from office, eat, shower, repeat, fast forward 40 years, and die.

twirlock 6y ago

People need to stop letting themselves be conned into treating their job as a moral impetus while their employers are solely profit motivated. It is literally propaganda when you internalize a corporation's "values" while the people at the top are making 10x as much money and would still gladly pay you less to work more.

nonbirithm 6y ago

> In Matthew Walker’s book Why We Sleep: Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams, the neuroscientist is blunt: “The shorter your sleep, the shorter your life span.” I find it sad that people are still quoting this book. Many claims in this book have been debunked online[0]. The misinformation may even cause people to get too much sleep causing different kinds of issues. As for me, this has caused me to come back with an impression of "we don't really know why we sleep." I wish there was a definitive source of information on this as popular as this book, but which is actually reputable. Now I just end up doubting my sleep patterns, waking up naturally and still being left unsure why I feel tired. [0] https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/