5 ms·

Eat Out to Help Out will go down as maybe the dumbest policy in COVID times in any nation. They paid us to eat at restaurants ... basically the highest risk a

by habosa 6y ago

Eat Out to Help Out will go down as maybe the dumbest policy in COVID times in any nation. They paid us to eat at restaurants ... basically the highest risk activity.

froh 6y ago
I thought you were kidding o-O > Eligible establishments are those in which food is sold for immediate on-premises consumption. ... > The discount cannot be applied to the following items: > ... > * food or drink that is to be consumed off premises https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/get-more-information-about-the-eat-out-to-help-out-scheme/get-more-information-about-the-eat-out-to-help-out-scheme https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/get-more-informat...
- austhrow743 6y ago
  Holy shit that’s basically mass murder.
  - te_chris 6y ago
    Tbf, it was in summer so a lot of outdoor dining options. But yes, overall, dumb.
    - riffraff 6y ago
      That partially justifies discounts for eating on premises, but I cannot imagine why those would not apply for take away. Trying to protect waiters/esses jobs, maybe?
      - pjc50 6y ago
        Money for giant pub chain JD Wetherspoon owned by Tory Brexit propagandist, perhaps.
      - DerDangDerDang 6y ago
        Exactly that, nominally. Though pjc50’s comment looks pretty convincing given gov.uk could have used the same money to make it easier for businesses to restructure to offer delivery...
  - bluescrn 6y ago
    When Covid is over, are we still going to talk about ‘murdering grandparents’ by visiting them during seasonal flu season? (Not comparing the two diseases, but wondering where grim Covid attitudes will persist)
    - socialdemocrat 6y ago
      The chance of dying from the seasonal flu or getting permanent health damage is significantly less. Counted like COVID19 there are only about 15 000 who die from Seasonal Flu in the US. Compare that to the 250 000 or so dead despite massive efforts to contain COVID19.
      - makomk 6y ago
        Every single attempt to count flu deaths "like Covid-19" that I've come across compares apples to oranges in a way that downplays the number of flu deaths. There are some really critical gotchas that make apparently like-for-like comparisons misleading. For a start, Covid-19 testing is much more widespread than flu testing. The UK has been testing everyone hospitalized for any reason for Covid, which they don't do for flu, and I think other Western countries are broadly similar. The flu tests are also less sensitive. Not only that, but because flu tends to kill more via secondary bacterial pneumonia, apparently patients don't necessarily have enough influenza virus left to test positive by the time they're hospitalized, whereas Covid causes pneumonia directly. Also, there's strong statistical evidence that flu causes heart attacks which aren't recorded as influenza deaths on things like death certificates. The headline CDC, etc stats take all this into account to estimate the number of people who died as a result of flu, in the sense that they'd have lived if they weren't infected. The "counted like Covid-19" stats generally don't count these as flu deaths, whilst comparing with stats that count almost anyone who died after being infected with Covid-19 as a Covid-19 death regardless of whether it was directly caused by Covid in this sense. They really don't compare like with like.
  - pmachinery 6y ago
    From the regime which oversaw the deaths of thousands of people in 'care homes' by moving Covid-19 infected hospital patients into care homes, reducing testing in care homes as the plague exploded in March, advising against mask use for care home staff, and that "if an employee becomes unwell and believe they have been exposed to COVID-19 [...] normal practice should continue".[0] Yes, the same regime that notoriously made the UK a sick joke around the world after openly announcing its preferred strategy of infecting as much of the population as possible with a deadly plague. [0] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-for-social-or-community-care-and-residential-settings-on-covid-19/guidance-for-social-or-community-care-and-residential-settings-on-covid-19#guidance-on-facemasks https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-for-soci...
Dig1t 6y ago
"the highest risk activity" seems somewhat hyperbolic. Eating at restaurants when tables are appropriately spaced and masks are worn when not actually eating is not extremely dangerous.
- fauigerzigerk 6y ago
  Another feature of the scheme was that they made people crowd together on just three days of the week. It was absolutely packed in some places and almost empty for the rest of the week.
- graeme 6y ago
  No, restaurants are one of the highest risk places. Spacing doesn’t help so much indoors where aerosols accumulate, especially if ventilation is poor. We just had an outbreak in halifax and bars and restaurants have far and away been the driver. https://fortune.com/2020/06/26/is-it-safe-restaurant-coronavirus-cases-credit-cards-restaurants-jp-morgan-chase-covid-19-outbreaks/ https://fortune.com/2020/06/26/is-it-safe-restaurant-coronav...
  - tremon 6y ago
    bars and restaurants This is a hugely different from just "restaurants", for many reasons: - restaurants have wait staff, so the guests are much more stationary, whereas in bars every round requires a walking trip to the bar for at least one person per group. - restaurants have tables, and the guests are usually seated, whereas bars have much more people standing around and close together. - as a result, the people walking around in restaurants can be controlled and trained, since they are employees. In bars, the people walking around are guests. - restaurants are a quiet atmosphere, and people at the same tables can usually have an easy conversation. In most bars, there's music blaring at loud volume so people must lean in towards each other for every sentence. I don't see how you go from "bars and restaurants have far and away been the driver" to "restaurants are one of the highest risk places" with a straight face. Can you point to studies showing how these differences don't make a diffference?
    - 6y ago
mattmanser 6y ago
It had no real affect on R, you can see it in the data. R shot up only during two events. Schools opening and Universities opening, and you can see this clearly on this graph someone else linked: https://reproduction.live/world/GB https://reproduction.live/world/GB I can understand schools opening, but the devastating double peak when universities opened (Freshers week and then the 2nd/3rd years the week after) was totally avoidable. There is minor peak at the end of August, but that is in my opinion actually holiday makers returning from infection ravaged Spain, as otherwise it would have been a month long peak.
- disgruntledphd2 6y ago
  Correlation is not causation. Because of the UK's testing policies around only testing symptomatic individuals, it's very difficult to answer questions like this effectively. See here for example, where it suggests that restaurants are one of the highest risk activities: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2923-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2923-3
  - mattmanser 6y ago
    Three peaks which line up perfectly with three national level mixing events? That happened in all regions round the country? Bullshit. If you want to play with simulations that clearly do not reflect real life, go ahead, but to me the Real World data is presently showing opening unis killed 10,000s people. And it makes sense too. Eat out to help out you stayed in your local area. The time periods were short, often outside, and many of the people mixing were already exposed to each other. Opening universities meant 100,000s of people moved around the country, met in big groups during induction, lots of mixing of new geographic regions. The time periods were long, often inside, and all the people mixing had never been exposed to each other.
    - rwmj 6y ago
      All the students are going to be sent home soon to visit their old folks at Christmas, what could possibly go wrong?
bluescrn 6y ago
Secondary schools and student accommodation seemed to be higher risk. 20%+ of secondary school kids absent (isolating, ill, or being kept away), but they still stubbornly insist on keeping them open.
- Camas 6y ago
  "Stubbornly insist that children get an education" being the other way to look at it.

by habosa 6y ago

Eat Out to Help Out will go down as maybe the dumbest policy in COVID times in any nation. They paid us to eat at restaurants ... basically the highest risk activity.

froh 6y ago

I thought you were kidding o-O > Eligible establishments are those in which food is sold for immediate on-premises consumption. ... > The discount cannot be applied to the following items: > ... > * food or drink that is to be consumed off premises https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/get-more-information-about-the-eat-out-to-help-out-scheme/get-more-information-about-the-eat-out-to-help-out-scheme https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/get-more-informat...

austhrow743 6y ago
Holy shit that’s basically mass murder.
- te_chris 6y ago
  Tbf, it was in summer so a lot of outdoor dining options. But yes, overall, dumb.
  - riffraff 6y ago
    That partially justifies discounts for eating on premises, but I cannot imagine why those would not apply for take away. Trying to protect waiters/esses jobs, maybe?
    - pjc50 6y ago
      Money for giant pub chain JD Wetherspoon owned by Tory Brexit propagandist, perhaps.
    - DerDangDerDang 6y ago
      Exactly that, nominally. Though pjc50’s comment looks pretty convincing given gov.uk could have used the same money to make it easier for businesses to restructure to offer delivery...
- bluescrn 6y ago
  When Covid is over, are we still going to talk about ‘murdering grandparents’ by visiting them during seasonal flu season? (Not comparing the two diseases, but wondering where grim Covid attitudes will persist)
  - socialdemocrat 6y ago
    The chance of dying from the seasonal flu or getting permanent health damage is significantly less. Counted like COVID19 there are only about 15 000 who die from Seasonal Flu in the US. Compare that to the 250 000 or so dead despite massive efforts to contain COVID19.
    - makomk 6y ago
      Every single attempt to count flu deaths "like Covid-19" that I've come across compares apples to oranges in a way that downplays the number of flu deaths. There are some really critical gotchas that make apparently like-for-like comparisons misleading. For a start, Covid-19 testing is much more widespread than flu testing. The UK has been testing everyone hospitalized for any reason for Covid, which they don't do for flu, and I think other Western countries are broadly similar. The flu tests are also less sensitive. Not only that, but because flu tends to kill more via secondary bacterial pneumonia, apparently patients don't necessarily have enough influenza virus left to test positive by the time they're hospitalized, whereas Covid causes pneumonia directly. Also, there's strong statistical evidence that flu causes heart attacks which aren't recorded as influenza deaths on things like death certificates. The headline CDC, etc stats take all this into account to estimate the number of people who died as a result of flu, in the sense that they'd have lived if they weren't infected. The "counted like Covid-19" stats generally don't count these as flu deaths, whilst comparing with stats that count almost anyone who died after being infected with Covid-19 as a Covid-19 death regardless of whether it was directly caused by Covid in this sense. They really don't compare like with like.
- pmachinery 6y ago
  From the regime which oversaw the deaths of thousands of people in 'care homes' by moving Covid-19 infected hospital patients into care homes, reducing testing in care homes as the plague exploded in March, advising against mask use for care home staff, and that "if an employee becomes unwell and believe they have been exposed to COVID-19 [...] normal practice should continue".[0] Yes, the same regime that notoriously made the UK a sick joke around the world after openly announcing its preferred strategy of infecting as much of the population as possible with a deadly plague. [0] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-for-social-or-community-care-and-residential-settings-on-covid-19/guidance-for-social-or-community-care-and-residential-settings-on-covid-19#guidance-on-facemasks https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-for-soci...

Dig1t 6y ago

"the highest risk activity" seems somewhat hyperbolic. Eating at restaurants when tables are appropriately spaced and masks are worn when not actually eating is not extremely dangerous.

fauigerzigerk 6y ago
Another feature of the scheme was that they made people crowd together on just three days of the week. It was absolutely packed in some places and almost empty for the rest of the week.
graeme 6y ago
No, restaurants are one of the highest risk places. Spacing doesn’t help so much indoors where aerosols accumulate, especially if ventilation is poor. We just had an outbreak in halifax and bars and restaurants have far and away been the driver. https://fortune.com/2020/06/26/is-it-safe-restaurant-coronavirus-cases-credit-cards-restaurants-jp-morgan-chase-covid-19-outbreaks/ https://fortune.com/2020/06/26/is-it-safe-restaurant-coronav...
- tremon 6y ago
  bars and restaurants This is a hugely different from just "restaurants", for many reasons: - restaurants have wait staff, so the guests are much more stationary, whereas in bars every round requires a walking trip to the bar for at least one person per group. - restaurants have tables, and the guests are usually seated, whereas bars have much more people standing around and close together. - as a result, the people walking around in restaurants can be controlled and trained, since they are employees. In bars, the people walking around are guests. - restaurants are a quiet atmosphere, and people at the same tables can usually have an easy conversation. In most bars, there's music blaring at loud volume so people must lean in towards each other for every sentence. I don't see how you go from "bars and restaurants have far and away been the driver" to "restaurants are one of the highest risk places" with a straight face. Can you point to studies showing how these differences don't make a diffference?
  - 6y ago

mattmanser 6y ago

It had no real affect on R, you can see it in the data. R shot up only during two events. Schools opening and Universities opening, and you can see this clearly on this graph someone else linked: https://reproduction.live/world/GB https://reproduction.live/world/GB I can understand schools opening, but the devastating double peak when universities opened (Freshers week and then the 2nd/3rd years the week after) was totally avoidable. There is minor peak at the end of August, but that is in my opinion actually holiday makers returning from infection ravaged Spain, as otherwise it would have been a month long peak.

disgruntledphd2 6y ago
Correlation is not causation. Because of the UK's testing policies around only testing symptomatic individuals, it's very difficult to answer questions like this effectively. See here for example, where it suggests that restaurants are one of the highest risk activities: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2923-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2923-3
- mattmanser 6y ago
  Three peaks which line up perfectly with three national level mixing events? That happened in all regions round the country? Bullshit. If you want to play with simulations that clearly do not reflect real life, go ahead, but to me the Real World data is presently showing opening unis killed 10,000s people. And it makes sense too. Eat out to help out you stayed in your local area. The time periods were short, often outside, and many of the people mixing were already exposed to each other. Opening universities meant 100,000s of people moved around the country, met in big groups during induction, lots of mixing of new geographic regions. The time periods were long, often inside, and all the people mixing had never been exposed to each other.
  - rwmj 6y ago
    All the students are going to be sent home soon to visit their old folks at Christmas, what could possibly go wrong?

bluescrn 6y ago

Secondary schools and student accommodation seemed to be higher risk. 20%+ of secondary school kids absent (isolating, ill, or being kept away), but they still stubbornly insist on keeping them open.

Camas 6y ago
"Stubbornly insist that children get an education" being the other way to look at it.